Feels like pof release again

2)Stone heart

Check the release history.....

Yeah, as I said. Early 2013 for the former, the latter was just one of many traits added.

3)https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Celestial_AmuletNobody was using cele amulet then it got buffed

It never was buffed. It was nerfed. There was a version from before that that had different stats, but thats because it was under the old system where everything had different stats. Ironically, under that version Celestial was even stronger relatively, as it only was like 20 stats off, while berserkers was way lower.

It seems at this point everything turned more into a biased discussion...either way I don't deny that ele has been in relatively speaking comfortable position and seen quite few falls along the way, still thief players should not deny their interaction with the meta since the launch of the game, thief has been meta since launch in pvp...I really don't want to link all major tournaments from 2013 till now but I will if I am forced to .

Oh you dont have to link them, I can. Lets start with the Pro League shall we? My my, what do we have here? In the first tournament, there was no thief played at all. Even famous thief players, like Toker and Levin were not playing thief. So yeah, so much for thief was "always meta". What about the second one? Well, it had 2 thieves. But only players who are known for their thief and less good at other classes. Even then, Levin still dropped thief in favour of Revenant, and the teams with thieves were the worst performing ones. Once again, far cry from "meta". What about the World Championship? Same story. Almost no team played thief, and the ones that did were the ones that did the worst. Once more, thief wasnt meta. Hell, this time even MuffinZZ dropped thief. And thats all of the tournaments that happened back then. Thief was largely not meta in HoT.

Yes, thief was meta for almost all of pre-HoT (excluding a small blip before the specialisation update). But past HoT? They performed pretty poorly, and they would perform poorly for parts of PoF as well. Its a far cry from "always meta".

Stop victmizing necros....

Ah yes, montages. Well known for being representative of the class and unbiased, and not just cherrypicked clips made to look the player as good as possible.

Again I don't want to link every single video showcasing necros from reapers to scourges...the class has been meta since launch like thief in a way or another, always present way more than ele (I concede that ele became a FOTM class after the June 2015 condi patch...at least for some time) , while a solid class for good part of GW2 life span, ele was almost never this overbearing presence like thief or necro both for soloq and wvw. yes ele got really OP withe fire/water/arcana after the June 2015 patch but that's it...after that you never had a situation where they were 4-5 eles in a single match like it has been for necros

We have already thoroughly disproven that Thief was "meta since launch", by showing that for most of HoT, it wasnt meta at all, and at times straight up unplayed. Necro performed a little better in HoT, but a lot worse prior and a lot worse post scourge nerfs in PoF. Ironically, Ele was meta about as much as they were. Also, thief was only "overbearing" in 2013-late 2014, while Ele had been overbearing the entirety of 2015 and 2016. So yeah, it performed way better. And no, you had several times in HoT where teams had 4-5 eles in a single match. Hell, professional teams were playing 2, or even 3 eles in the same team, while no other class basically ever got stacked.

SPESHAL.9106 · April 14, 2020

People always look at these things through bias...not just for their profession, but situation in sPvP. There are team fights and there are individual fights in every game. Some professions excel in some situations versus others, but people always whine about whatever it is they CAN'T do.

While there are certainly things that could be improved, balance overall is better than it has been. Just in this thread you see almost unanimous agreement that engies, revs, guards and necros have viable builds that fit the 5 man team fighting situations well. That's quite a few professions.

When you add in the fact that mesmers, rangers, eles and thieves could be 4 of the most game changing professions outside of group fights with their mobility, portals, burst, +1 abilities, etc...you almost have things as best as could be expected (assuming that you agree with Anet that certain professions need to keep their individuality and niches).

If you don't agree with Anet about keeping professions somewhat unique and non-homogenized, then sure...you could balance them easier to be equal in almost every scenario. If you like things non-homogenized, then you have to intellectually honest and objective about your criticisms. It's not that bad all things considered.

Leonidrex.5649 · April 14, 2020

@ButterPeanut.9746 said:POF release spellbreaker warrior was in the conversation for best spec at the time. Now warrior is leading the conversation for worst class :(

wat? warrior is fine

Arheundel.6451 · April 14, 2020

@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Arheundel.6451 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Arheundel.6451 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Arheundel.6451 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Arheundel.6451 said:
@"Crab Fear.1624" said:necrosguardseles
every one else is salt and pepper

Thieves and Necros are perpetual whiners...while having been perma meta in PvP/WvW since the inception of the game

You know, you keep repeating that, but thats still wrong. Necro hasnt been meta for most of GW2s lifespan, having had brief stints in the spotlight in pre-HoT and then a couple in HoT, but by and large being absent from the meta. Thief fared better, but even thief wasnt meta every time the meta gravitated towards bunkers (it makes their rotational prowess far less relevant), which HoT had a few of.

2012 :Core necro and D/D thief

2012-2013Core necro , D/D and D/P thief

2013-2014-2015Dhuum fire necro, D/P and S/D thief

So far mostly correct, necro wasnt much of a thing in most of 2013 and 2015.

2015-2018Chill/dhuum Reaper, D/P, S/D core and Daredevil

Here you are incorrect. Reaper was relevant for all of a couple months in early HoT, then stopped being relevant. Thief was only relevant in non-bunker metas. HoT didnt have too many of those.

2018-2019Scourge, Deadeye, D/P core thief

Deadeye was never viable. D/P core thief was not viable until

late

2019. It was only S/D, and that one was ok.

2019-2020Core necro, D/P core thief

Core Necro only became viable after the february patch. Before that, necro wasnt viable.

I won't mention other sub-variants and neither their implications in WvW but so far...
when exactly were thief and necro non meta?
and you answering the question would imply that the meta had better replacements and I'd like to know which ones

"Replacements"? No, that would only apply if their role was still relevant, but thieves role was not relevant in several metas. The replacement was just playing a bunker yourself as well. Necro had been replaced by various classes, Elementalists, Bunker Mesmers, Warriors, etc. etc.

I think your memory is a bit fuzzy....

When the dhuum patch got released, people were playing even 3 dhuum necro per team in ranked, during that time 2013-2014

ele was literally unplayable

so much that

Jon Peters

pitied the eles and introduced

Diamond Skin

to give eles a chance to fight back. At the same time of the dhuum patch we had buffs for

s/d thief

and their 2-3 boons steal from sword shadow step ( can't remember correct name ) and all of that contributed to make ele virtually unplayable in PvP/WvW so much again that along with Diamond skin , the devs released

Stone Heart

It seems your memory is a bit fuzzy. During 2014, Celestial D/D Ele was the powerhouse it would continue to be until the specialisation patch. Hell, the winning team in December 2014s WTS had 2 Eles on its team, and the others all had 1. Diamond Skin was added in early 2013, so Im not sure why youre talking about it in the context of 2014. S/D thief got a

nerf

in the dhuumfire patch, having Larcenous Strikes initiative cost increased by 1. You also confused Infiltrator's Strike (the shadowstep) with Larcenous Strike (the boonrip), and were wrong with the number of boons Larcenous Strike removed (2, later 1). Stone Heart was not introduced because Ele was "virtually unplayable", but because they gave several new cool traits to everyone.

S/D thieves with their unblockable boon steal were making life miserable for guardians too and dhuumfire was being abused left and right with no remorse, it took some months but the nerfs started to flow in....it was still not enough and we barely reached a placebo sort of situation, because in the end
whining FOTM necro mains
got Diamond skin nerfed to the ground, luckily by that time dhuumfire was close to be dead.

Guardians were actually picked more than thieves. Every team had at least 1, sometimes 2, while some teams dropped thief alltogether in 2014. I also dont know where you got the idea that Dhuumfire necros were "dominating" from, because they werent common picks. I looked back through some old tournament VoDs, and I only saw a handful of teams even having the 1 Necro. Ele was considerably more common.

Few month later (2015) we had HoT release and was Necro/Thief invasion all over again...with busted
Deathly Chill
and
Daredevil s/d
which at release was basically the perfect duellist with no counters....life was really miserable in PvP and wvw with reapers running amok spamming Deathly chill and DD s/d thieves turning roaming in a living nightmare.

... ok now your memory has gone completely haywire. Reaper was initially fairly strong, yes, but as I said, its relevance dropped fast. Thief on the other hand? People played Daredevil

D/P

, not S/D (Up until the recent acro nerfs, S/D has never used Daredevil), and it was not picked ... basically at all. If you look at the pro league at the time, almost no team ran any thief.

I mean c'mon...with necro and thief we always gravitate from a state of Broken OP to mild /soft countered state.

You wish. Thief was broken (legitimately broken) pre-specialisation update. Afterwards, it was just good. You played 1 in your team, and it was often not even mandatory. Except for most of HoT, where thief was bad and teams just didnt play thief. Thats not "broken OP". Necro fared worse, generally being irrelevant, short of brief stints in the spotlight, before being cast aside. Even happened with PoF.

Thieves and necro play too much the victim card when in a way or another, they always receive some unfun mechanic to fight against.......

Thats hilarious coming from a ranger. A class that people cry out even more, and that still tended to perform better than Necro (and is about on par with thief).

1) Diamond skin

2)Stone heart

Check the release history.....

Yeah, as I said. Early 2013 for the former, the latter was just one of many traits added.

3)
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Celestial_Amulet
Nobody was using cele amulet then it got buffed

It never was buffed. It was

nerfed

. There was a version from before that that had different stats, but thats because it was under the old system where everything had different stats. Ironically, under that version Celestial was even stronger relatively, as it only was like 20 stats off, while berserkers was way lower.

It seems at this point everything turned more into a biased discussion...either way I don't deny that ele has been in relatively speaking comfortable position and seen quite few falls along the way, still thief players should not deny their interaction with the meta since the launch of the game, thief has been meta since launch in pvp...
I really don't want to link all major tournaments from 2013 till now
but I will if I am forced to .

Oh you dont have to link them, I can. Lets start with the

shall we? My my, what do we have here? In the first tournament, there was

no

thief played at all. Even famous thief players, like Toker and Levin were not playing thief. So yeah, so much for thief was "always meta". What about the second one? Well, it had 2 thieves. But only players who are known for their thief and less good at other classes. Even then, Levin still dropped thief in favour of Revenant, and the teams with thieves were the worst performing ones. Once again, far cry from "meta". What about the

? Same story. Almost no team played thief, and the ones that did were the ones that did the worst. Once more, thief wasnt meta. Hell, this time even MuffinZZ dropped thief. And thats all of the tournaments that happened back then. Thief was largely not meta in HoT.

Yes, thief was meta for almost all of pre-HoT (excluding a small blip before the specialisation update). But past HoT? They performed pretty poorly, and they would perform poorly for parts of PoF as well. Its a far cry from "always meta".

Stop victmizing necros....

Ah yes, montages. Well known for being representative of the class and unbiased, and not just cherrypicked clips made to look the player as good as possible.

Again I don't want to link every single video showcasing necros from reapers to scourges...the class has been meta since launch like thief in a way or another, always present way more than ele
(I concede that ele became a FOTM class after the June 2015 condi patch...at least for some time)
, while a solid class for good part of GW2 life span, ele was almost never this overbearing presence like thief or necro both for soloq and wvw. yes ele got really OP withe fire/water/arcana after the June 2015 patch but that's it...after that you never had a situation where they were 4-5 eles in a single match like it has been for necros

We have already thoroughly disproven that Thief was "meta since launch", by showing that for most of HoT, it wasnt meta at all, and at times straight up unplayed. Necro performed a little better in HoT, but a lot worse prior and a lot worse post scourge nerfs in PoF. Ironically, Ele was meta about as much as they were. Also, thief was only "overbearing" in 2013-late 2014, while Ele had been overbearing the entirety of 2015 and 2016. So yeah, it performed way better. And no, you had several times in HoT where teams had 4-5 eles in a single match. Hell, professional teams were playing 2, or even

3

eles in the same team, while no other class basically ever got stacked.

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Arheundel.6451 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Arheundel.6451 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Arheundel.6451 said:
@"Crab Fear.1624" said:necrosguardseles
every one else is salt and pepper

Thieves and Necros are perpetual whiners...while having been perma meta in PvP/WvW since the inception of the game

You know, you keep repeating that, but thats still wrong. Necro hasnt been meta for most of GW2s lifespan, having had brief stints in the spotlight in pre-HoT and then a couple in HoT, but by and large being absent from the meta. Thief fared better, but even thief wasnt meta every time the meta gravitated towards bunkers (it makes their rotational prowess far less relevant), which HoT had a few of.

2012 :Core necro and D/D thief

2012-2013Core necro , D/D and D/P thief

2013-2014-2015Dhuum fire necro, D/P and S/D thief

So far mostly correct, necro wasnt much of a thing in most of 2013 and 2015.

2015-2018Chill/dhuum Reaper, D/P, S/D core and Daredevil

Here you are incorrect. Reaper was relevant for all of a couple months in early HoT, then stopped being relevant. Thief was only relevant in non-bunker metas. HoT didnt have too many of those.

2018-2019Scourge, Deadeye, D/P core thief

Deadeye was never viable. D/P core thief was not viable until

late

2019. It was only S/D, and that one was ok.

2019-2020Core necro, D/P core thief

Core Necro only became viable after the february patch. Before that, necro wasnt viable.

I won't mention other sub-variants and neither their implications in WvW but so far...
when exactly were thief and necro non meta?
and you answering the question would imply that the meta had better replacements and I'd like to know which ones

"Replacements"? No, that would only apply if their role was still relevant, but thieves role was not relevant in several metas. The replacement was just playing a bunker yourself as well. Necro had been replaced by various classes, Elementalists, Bunker Mesmers, Warriors, etc. etc.

I think your memory is a bit fuzzy....

When the dhuum patch got released, people were playing even 3 dhuum necro per team in ranked, during that time 2013-2014

ele was literally unplayable

so much that

Jon Peters

pitied the eles and introduced

Diamond Skin

to give eles a chance to fight back. At the same time of the dhuum patch we had buffs for

s/d thief

and their 2-3 boons steal from sword shadow step ( can't remember correct name ) and all of that contributed to make ele virtually unplayable in PvP/WvW so much again that along with Diamond skin , the devs released

Stone Heart

It seems your memory is a bit fuzzy. During 2014, Celestial D/D Ele was the powerhouse it would continue to be until the specialisation patch. Hell, the winning team in December 2014s WTS had 2 Eles on its team, and the others all had 1. Diamond Skin was added in early 2013, so Im not sure why youre talking about it in the context of 2014. S/D thief got a

nerf

in the dhuumfire patch, having Larcenous Strikes initiative cost increased by 1. You also confused Infiltrator's Strike (the shadowstep) with Larcenous Strike (the boonrip), and were wrong with the number of boons Larcenous Strike removed (2, later 1). Stone Heart was not introduced because Ele was "virtually unplayable", but because they gave several new cool traits to everyone.

S/D thieves with their unblockable boon steal were making life miserable for guardians too and dhuumfire was being abused left and right with no remorse, it took some months but the nerfs started to flow in....it was still not enough and we barely reached a placebo sort of situation, because in the end
whining FOTM necro mains
got Diamond skin nerfed to the ground, luckily by that time dhuumfire was close to be dead.

Guardians were actually picked more than thieves. Every team had at least 1, sometimes 2, while some teams dropped thief alltogether in 2014. I also dont know where you got the idea that Dhuumfire necros were "dominating" from, because they werent common picks. I looked back through some old tournament VoDs, and I only saw a handful of teams even having the 1 Necro. Ele was considerably more common.

Few month later (2015) we had HoT release and was Necro/Thief invasion all over again...with busted
Deathly Chill
and
Daredevil s/d
which at release was basically the perfect duellist with no counters....life was really miserable in PvP and wvw with reapers running amok spamming Deathly chill and DD s/d thieves turning roaming in a living nightmare.

... ok now your memory has gone completely haywire. Reaper was initially fairly strong, yes, but as I said, its relevance dropped fast. Thief on the other hand? People played Daredevil

D/P

, not S/D (Up until the recent acro nerfs, S/D has never used Daredevil), and it was not picked ... basically at all. If you look at the pro league at the time, almost no team ran any thief.

I mean c'mon...with necro and thief we always gravitate from a state of Broken OP to mild /soft countered state.

You wish. Thief was broken (legitimately broken) pre-specialisation update. Afterwards, it was just good. You played 1 in your team, and it was often not even mandatory. Except for most of HoT, where thief was bad and teams just didnt play thief. Thats not "broken OP". Necro fared worse, generally being irrelevant, short of brief stints in the spotlight, before being cast aside. Even happened with PoF.

Thieves and necro play too much the victim card when in a way or another, they always receive some unfun mechanic to fight against.......

Thats hilarious coming from a ranger. A class that people cry out even more, and that still tended to perform better than Necro (and is about on par with thief).

1) Diamond skin

2)Stone heart

Check the release history.....

Yeah, as I said. Early 2013 for the former, the latter was just one of many traits added.

3)
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Celestial_Amulet
Nobody was using cele amulet then it got buffed

It never was buffed. It was

nerfed

. There was a version from before that that had different stats, but thats because it was under the old system where everything had different stats. Ironically, under that version Celestial was even stronger relatively, as it only was like 20 stats off, while berserkers was way lower.

It seems at this point everything turned more into a biased discussion...either way I don't deny that ele has been in relatively speaking comfortable position and seen quite few falls along the way, still thief players should not deny their interaction with the meta since the launch of the game, thief has been meta since launch in pvp...
I really don't want to link all major tournaments from 2013 till now
but I will if I am forced to .

Oh you dont have to link them, I can. Lets start with the

shall we? My my, what do we have here? In the first tournament, there was

no

thief played at all. Even famous thief players, like Toker and Levin were not playing thief. So yeah, so much for thief was "always meta". What about the second one? Well, it had 2 thieves. But only players who are known for their thief and less good at other classes. Even then, Levin still dropped thief in favour of Revenant, and the teams with thieves were the worst performing ones. Once again, far cry from "meta". What about the

? Same story. Almost no team played thief, and the ones that did were the ones that did the worst. Once more, thief wasnt meta. Hell, this time even MuffinZZ dropped thief. And thats all of the tournaments that happened back then. Thief was largely not meta in HoT.

Yes, thief was meta for almost all of pre-HoT (excluding a small blip before the specialisation update). But past HoT? They performed pretty poorly, and they would perform poorly for parts of PoF as well. Its a far cry from "always meta".

Stop victmizing necros....

Ah yes, montages. Well known for being representative of the class and unbiased, and not just cherrypicked clips made to look the player as good as possible.

Again I don't want to link every single video showcasing necros from reapers to scourges...the class has been meta since launch like thief in a way or another, always present way more than ele
(I concede that ele became a FOTM class after the June 2015 condi patch...at least for some time)
, while a solid class for good part of GW2 life span, ele was almost never this overbearing presence like thief or necro both for soloq and wvw. yes ele got really OP withe fire/water/arcana after the June 2015 patch but that's it...after that you never had a situation where they were 4-5 eles in a single match like it has been for necros

We have already thoroughly disproven that Thief was "meta since launch", by showing that for most of HoT, it wasnt meta at all, and at times straight up unplayed. Necro performed a little better in HoT, but a lot worse prior and a lot worse post scourge nerfs in PoF. Ironically, Ele was meta about as much as they were. Also, thief was only "overbearing" in 2013-late 2014, while Ele had been overbearing the entirety of 2015 and 2016. So yeah, it performed way better. And no, you had several times in HoT where teams had 4-5 eles in a single match. Hell, professional teams were playing 2, or even

3

eles in the same team, while no other class basically ever got stacked.

You keep lying..but it's easy to disprove you...

2013

2014

"no other class basically ever got stacked"...last famous words

2015

You are again proved wrong and I think this was after the June 2015 patch which made fire ele clearly OP for a good while as I have already stated and yet, I see thief being played in the finals, a single played tournament that won with 4 eles because of a patch fluke...that got fixed 3-4 months later with nerfs to the fire traitline

2016

I fail to see your overbearing stacked ele still...a tempest support

Tell me again how thief was not meta but at this point I don't understand what is the problem, the OP is a thief who constantly asks for nerfs...didn't get anything wrong there...about the rest I think people see what they want to see but all points have been made.

As others before , you try to base your whole argument on that september esl match with 4 eles and...1 thief, that was once across the whole lifespan of GW2 and other professions have been stacked just as well in PvP ranked ...did you even watch last monthly tournie with 3-4 revs in a single match? Got anything to say about that?

UNOwen.7132 · April 14, 2020

@Arheundel.6451 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Arheundel.6451 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Arheundel.6451 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Arheundel.6451 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Arheundel.6451 said:
@"Crab Fear.1624" said:necrosguardseles
every one else is salt and pepper

Thieves and Necros are perpetual whiners...while having been perma meta in PvP/WvW since the inception of the game

You know, you keep repeating that, but thats still wrong. Necro hasnt been meta for most of GW2s lifespan, having had brief stints in the spotlight in pre-HoT and then a couple in HoT, but by and large being absent from the meta. Thief fared better, but even thief wasnt meta every time the meta gravitated towards bunkers (it makes their rotational prowess far less relevant), which HoT had a few of.

2012 :Core necro and D/D thief

2012-2013Core necro , D/D and D/P thief

2013-2014-2015Dhuum fire necro, D/P and S/D thief

So far mostly correct, necro wasnt much of a thing in most of 2013 and 2015.

2015-2018Chill/dhuum Reaper, D/P, S/D core and Daredevil

Here you are incorrect. Reaper was relevant for all of a couple months in early HoT, then stopped being relevant. Thief was only relevant in non-bunker metas. HoT didnt have too many of those.

2018-2019Scourge, Deadeye, D/P core thief

Deadeye was never viable. D/P core thief was not viable until

late

2019. It was only S/D, and that one was ok.

2019-2020Core necro, D/P core thief

Core Necro only became viable after the february patch. Before that, necro wasnt viable.

I won't mention other sub-variants and neither their implications in WvW but so far...
when exactly were thief and necro non meta?
and you answering the question would imply that the meta had better replacements and I'd like to know which ones

"Replacements"? No, that would only apply if their role was still relevant, but thieves role was not relevant in several metas. The replacement was just playing a bunker yourself as well. Necro had been replaced by various classes, Elementalists, Bunker Mesmers, Warriors, etc. etc.

I think your memory is a bit fuzzy....

When the dhuum patch got released, people were playing even 3 dhuum necro per team in ranked, during that time 2013-2014

ele was literally unplayable

so much that

Jon Peters

pitied the eles and introduced

Diamond Skin

to give eles a chance to fight back. At the same time of the dhuum patch we had buffs for

s/d thief

and their 2-3 boons steal from sword shadow step ( can't remember correct name ) and all of that contributed to make ele virtually unplayable in PvP/WvW so much again that along with Diamond skin , the devs released

Stone Heart

It seems your memory is a bit fuzzy. During 2014, Celestial D/D Ele was the powerhouse it would continue to be until the specialisation patch. Hell, the winning team in December 2014s WTS had 2 Eles on its team, and the others all had 1. Diamond Skin was added in early 2013, so Im not sure why youre talking about it in the context of 2014. S/D thief got a

nerf

in the dhuumfire patch, having Larcenous Strikes initiative cost increased by 1. You also confused Infiltrator's Strike (the shadowstep) with Larcenous Strike (the boonrip), and were wrong with the number of boons Larcenous Strike removed (2, later 1). Stone Heart was not introduced because Ele was "virtually unplayable", but because they gave several new cool traits to everyone.

S/D thieves with their unblockable boon steal were making life miserable for guardians too and dhuumfire was being abused left and right with no remorse, it took some months but the nerfs started to flow in....it was still not enough and we barely reached a placebo sort of situation, because in the end
whining FOTM necro mains
got Diamond skin nerfed to the ground, luckily by that time dhuumfire was close to be dead.

Guardians were actually picked more than thieves. Every team had at least 1, sometimes 2, while some teams dropped thief alltogether in 2014. I also dont know where you got the idea that Dhuumfire necros were "dominating" from, because they werent common picks. I looked back through some old tournament VoDs, and I only saw a handful of teams even having the 1 Necro. Ele was considerably more common.

Few month later (2015) we had HoT release and was Necro/Thief invasion all over again...with busted
Deathly Chill
and
Daredevil s/d
which at release was basically the perfect duellist with no counters....life was really miserable in PvP and wvw with reapers running amok spamming Deathly chill and DD s/d thieves turning roaming in a living nightmare.

... ok now your memory has gone completely haywire. Reaper was initially fairly strong, yes, but as I said, its relevance dropped fast. Thief on the other hand? People played Daredevil

D/P

, not S/D (Up until the recent acro nerfs, S/D has never used Daredevil), and it was not picked ... basically at all. If you look at the pro league at the time, almost no team ran any thief.

I mean c'mon...with necro and thief we always gravitate from a state of Broken OP to mild /soft countered state.

You wish. Thief was broken (legitimately broken) pre-specialisation update. Afterwards, it was just good. You played 1 in your team, and it was often not even mandatory. Except for most of HoT, where thief was bad and teams just didnt play thief. Thats not "broken OP". Necro fared worse, generally being irrelevant, short of brief stints in the spotlight, before being cast aside. Even happened with PoF.

Thieves and necro play too much the victim card when in a way or another, they always receive some unfun mechanic to fight against.......

Thats hilarious coming from a ranger. A class that people cry out even more, and that still tended to perform better than Necro (and is about on par with thief).

1) Diamond skin

2)Stone heart

Check the release history.....

Yeah, as I said. Early 2013 for the former, the latter was just one of many traits added.

3)
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Celestial_Amulet
Nobody was using cele amulet then it got buffed

It never was buffed. It was

nerfed

. There was a version from before that that had different stats, but thats because it was under the old system where everything had different stats. Ironically, under that version Celestial was even stronger relatively, as it only was like 20 stats off, while berserkers was way lower.

It seems at this point everything turned more into a biased discussion...either way I don't deny that ele has been in relatively speaking comfortable position and seen quite few falls along the way, still thief players should not deny their interaction with the meta since the launch of the game, thief has been meta since launch in pvp...
I really don't want to link all major tournaments from 2013 till now
but I will if I am forced to .

Oh you dont have to link them, I can. Lets start with the

shall we? My my, what do we have here? In the first tournament, there was

no

thief played at all. Even famous thief players, like Toker and Levin were not playing thief. So yeah, so much for thief was "always meta". What about the second one? Well, it had 2 thieves. But only players who are known for their thief and less good at other classes. Even then, Levin still dropped thief in favour of Revenant, and the teams with thieves were the worst performing ones. Once again, far cry from "meta". What about the

? Same story. Almost no team played thief, and the ones that did were the ones that did the worst. Once more, thief wasnt meta. Hell, this time even MuffinZZ dropped thief. And thats all of the tournaments that happened back then. Thief was largely not meta in HoT.

Yes, thief was meta for almost all of pre-HoT (excluding a small blip before the specialisation update). But past HoT? They performed pretty poorly, and they would perform poorly for parts of PoF as well. Its a far cry from "always meta".

Stop victmizing necros....

Ah yes, montages. Well known for being representative of the class and unbiased, and not just cherrypicked clips made to look the player as good as possible.

Again I don't want to link every single video showcasing necros from reapers to scourges...the class has been meta since launch like thief in a way or another, always present way more than ele
(I concede that ele became a FOTM class after the June 2015 condi patch...at least for some time)
, while a solid class for good part of GW2 life span, ele was almost never this overbearing presence like thief or necro both for soloq and wvw. yes ele got really OP withe fire/water/arcana after the June 2015 patch but that's it...after that you never had a situation where they were 4-5 eles in a single match like it has been for necros

We have already thoroughly disproven that Thief was "meta since launch", by showing that for most of HoT, it wasnt meta at all, and at times straight up unplayed. Necro performed a little better in HoT, but a lot worse prior and a lot worse post scourge nerfs in PoF. Ironically, Ele was meta about as much as they were. Also, thief was only "overbearing" in 2013-late 2014, while Ele had been overbearing the entirety of 2015 and 2016. So yeah, it performed way better. And no, you had several times in HoT where teams had 4-5 eles in a single match. Hell, professional teams were playing 2, or even

3

eles in the same team, while no other class basically ever got stacked.

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Arheundel.6451 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Arheundel.6451 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Arheundel.6451 said:
@"Crab Fear.1624" said:necrosguardseles
every one else is salt and pepper

Thieves and Necros are perpetual whiners...while having been perma meta in PvP/WvW since the inception of the game

You know, you keep repeating that, but thats still wrong. Necro hasnt been meta for most of GW2s lifespan, having had brief stints in the spotlight in pre-HoT and then a couple in HoT, but by and large being absent from the meta. Thief fared better, but even thief wasnt meta every time the meta gravitated towards bunkers (it makes their rotational prowess far less relevant), which HoT had a few of.

2012 :Core necro and D/D thief

2012-2013Core necro , D/D and D/P thief

2013-2014-2015Dhuum fire necro, D/P and S/D thief

So far mostly correct, necro wasnt much of a thing in most of 2013 and 2015.

2015-2018Chill/dhuum Reaper, D/P, S/D core and Daredevil

Here you are incorrect. Reaper was relevant for all of a couple months in early HoT, then stopped being relevant. Thief was only relevant in non-bunker metas. HoT didnt have too many of those.

2018-2019Scourge, Deadeye, D/P core thief

Deadeye was never viable. D/P core thief was not viable until

late

2019. It was only S/D, and that one was ok.

2019-2020Core necro, D/P core thief

Core Necro only became viable after the february patch. Before that, necro wasnt viable.

I won't mention other sub-variants and neither their implications in WvW but so far...
when exactly were thief and necro non meta?
and you answering the question would imply that the meta had better replacements and I'd like to know which ones

"Replacements"? No, that would only apply if their role was still relevant, but thieves role was not relevant in several metas. The replacement was just playing a bunker yourself as well. Necro had been replaced by various classes, Elementalists, Bunker Mesmers, Warriors, etc. etc.

I think your memory is a bit fuzzy....

When the dhuum patch got released, people were playing even 3 dhuum necro per team in ranked, during that time 2013-2014

ele was literally unplayable

so much that

Jon Peters

pitied the eles and introduced

Diamond Skin

to give eles a chance to fight back. At the same time of the dhuum patch we had buffs for

s/d thief

and their 2-3 boons steal from sword shadow step ( can't remember correct name ) and all of that contributed to make ele virtually unplayable in PvP/WvW so much again that along with Diamond skin , the devs released

Stone Heart

It seems your memory is a bit fuzzy. During 2014, Celestial D/D Ele was the powerhouse it would continue to be until the specialisation patch. Hell, the winning team in December 2014s WTS had 2 Eles on its team, and the others all had 1. Diamond Skin was added in early 2013, so Im not sure why youre talking about it in the context of 2014. S/D thief got a

nerf

in the dhuumfire patch, having Larcenous Strikes initiative cost increased by 1. You also confused Infiltrator's Strike (the shadowstep) with Larcenous Strike (the boonrip), and were wrong with the number of boons Larcenous Strike removed (2, later 1). Stone Heart was not introduced because Ele was "virtually unplayable", but because they gave several new cool traits to everyone.

S/D thieves with their unblockable boon steal were making life miserable for guardians too and dhuumfire was being abused left and right with no remorse, it took some months but the nerfs started to flow in....it was still not enough and we barely reached a placebo sort of situation, because in the end
whining FOTM necro mains
got Diamond skin nerfed to the ground, luckily by that time dhuumfire was close to be dead.

Guardians were actually picked more than thieves. Every team had at least 1, sometimes 2, while some teams dropped thief alltogether in 2014. I also dont know where you got the idea that Dhuumfire necros were "dominating" from, because they werent common picks. I looked back through some old tournament VoDs, and I only saw a handful of teams even having the 1 Necro. Ele was considerably more common.

Few month later (2015) we had HoT release and was Necro/Thief invasion all over again...with busted
Deathly Chill
and
Daredevil s/d
which at release was basically the perfect duellist with no counters....life was really miserable in PvP and wvw with reapers running amok spamming Deathly chill and DD s/d thieves turning roaming in a living nightmare.

... ok now your memory has gone completely haywire. Reaper was initially fairly strong, yes, but as I said, its relevance dropped fast. Thief on the other hand? People played Daredevil

D/P

, not S/D (Up until the recent acro nerfs, S/D has never used Daredevil), and it was not picked ... basically at all. If you look at the pro league at the time, almost no team ran any thief.

I mean c'mon...with necro and thief we always gravitate from a state of Broken OP to mild /soft countered state.

You wish. Thief was broken (legitimately broken) pre-specialisation update. Afterwards, it was just good. You played 1 in your team, and it was often not even mandatory. Except for most of HoT, where thief was bad and teams just didnt play thief. Thats not "broken OP". Necro fared worse, generally being irrelevant, short of brief stints in the spotlight, before being cast aside. Even happened with PoF.

Thieves and necro play too much the victim card when in a way or another, they always receive some unfun mechanic to fight against.......

Thats hilarious coming from a ranger. A class that people cry out even more, and that still tended to perform better than Necro (and is about on par with thief).

1) Diamond skin

2)Stone heart

Check the release history.....

Yeah, as I said. Early 2013 for the former, the latter was just one of many traits added.

3)
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Celestial_Amulet
Nobody was using cele amulet then it got buffed

It never was buffed. It was

nerfed

. There was a version from before that that had different stats, but thats because it was under the old system where everything had different stats. Ironically, under that version Celestial was even stronger relatively, as it only was like 20 stats off, while berserkers was way lower.

It seems at this point everything turned more into a biased discussion...either way I don't deny that ele has been in relatively speaking comfortable position and seen quite few falls along the way, still thief players should not deny their interaction with the meta since the launch of the game, thief has been meta since launch in pvp...
I really don't want to link all major tournaments from 2013 till now
but I will if I am forced to .

Oh you dont have to link them, I can. Lets start with the

shall we? My my, what do we have here? In the first tournament, there was

no

thief played at all. Even famous thief players, like Toker and Levin were not playing thief. So yeah, so much for thief was "always meta". What about the second one? Well, it had 2 thieves. But only players who are known for their thief and less good at other classes. Even then, Levin still dropped thief in favour of Revenant, and the teams with thieves were the worst performing ones. Once again, far cry from "meta". What about the