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@KrHome.1920 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Pw dps is fine for what it does, more damage would lead to a nerf in other aspects of the skill. A better example of thief skills that need a damage buff are pulmonary impact and dagger autos as they are pathetic lol.Try necro dagger after feb 25th. That's pathetic! It's slower and deals less damage than the teef dagger because necro has less trait multipliers. So it's all relative...

@topic:Pistol Whip itself is fine. Make it stronger you are basically back at spamming sword 2, 3, 2, 2, 3, 2, 2, 3, 2, 2, 3, 2 ... no one likes to fight against that and no one want's to play that for more than 5 minutes.

How do you spam 2, 3, 2, 2,3 with the current initiative costs, though? Do you play thief?Is there anything this community likes playing against?

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@Momekic.8603 said:PW does need an un-nerf. Since the damage got lowered a lot from the last balance patch they did not need to touch the initiative cost at all. They could simply revert that change and be done with it.

If they actually wanted to give it a cool buff I have a suggestion. It might cause some tears.

My suggestion would be to add 2-3 seconds of quickness on activation of PW. It would make it strong, but in perspective of overall balance I don't think it is overpowered

This'd be way abusable by canceling the pre-cast. It also conflicts with the premise of the skill, and thief having to choose to take quickness over utility and damage.

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@Taril.8619 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:

Personally Id rather they remove Kneel. Part of the problem is that Kneel replaces the skills with
worse
ones than the non-kneel. The correct way of playing Rifle DE is to never kneel.

I dunno, with exception of skill 4, which I think the shadowstep backwards that removes a condition is way better than the wall, I kind of like doing ~50% more damage per shot.

That said, I wouldn't be opposed to a rework of Kneel.

Such as, if they really wanted to go all in on the "Sniper" fantasy that the weapon type and spec is going for, Kneel could be a "Stealth-like" mechanic, where it changes your next shot into a single, more powerful shot.

I.e. Skill 1 becomes Death's Judgment, skill 2 becomes a powerful CC round, Double Tap becomes a powerful single shot that provides boons (Might, Fury, Quickness? Swiftness?) - All of these shots have Piercing too. Also, probably buff Sniper's cover too (Make it a ring? Let it give you stealth on cast? Damage boost while in/near it? idk)

So, you run around like normal ratatataing with your 3 but then when you are safe enough you can duck down onto your knee and fire off a poweful single shot and then you get back up again.

Slap a more substantial Init cost on Kneel, make the obligatory stealth skill adjustments to skill 1 (Basically, make Death's Judgment accessible while Kneeling and while Stealthed. Give it bonus damage while both kneeling and stealthed) and voila, you have a more thematic and overall fluid Rifle package. Where you're not choosing to become annoyingly immobile or forgoing that entire mechanic (And thus being left with a 4 skill weapon set...) while getting a bit more nuance in skill usage beyond 3333333333333

The trouble is that you do less damage while kneeling. The highest damage while kneeling is Three-Round Burst. It does less damage both per cast time and per initiative than skirmishers shot. Its also less efficient at stacking malice for malificent 7. And personally I think the sniper theme isnt that interesting, and we already had it with Warriors Rifle. Id rather have thieves rifle be a midrange weapon.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:The trouble is that you do less damage while kneeling. The highest damage while kneeling is Three-Round Burst. It does less damage both per cast time and per initiative than skirmishers shot.

Err... No?

Unless there's some game mode that jankifies the damage numbers.

If I take my numbers from in game (PvE):

Skirmisher's Shot: 837 damage, 0.5s cast, 3 initiative (1674 DPS, 279 DPI)Spotter's Shot: 1203 damage, 0.75s cast, 3 initiative (1604 DPS, 401 DPI)Double Tap: 1360 damage, 0.75s cast, 4 initative (2232 DPS, 340 DPI)Three Round Burst: 2355 damage, 1s cast, 4 initative (2355 DPS, 588.75 DPI)

Three Round Burst, is both the highest DPS (Damage per cast time) and DPI (Damage per initative) skill on DE Rifle. Followed by Double Tap.

The only damage loss from Kneel, is the damage per cast time of skill 2 where Spotter's Shot provides slightly less DPS than Skirmisher's Shot (But provides more DPI)

Not only this, but your AA's hit harder too. My Brutal Aim was showing 628 damage, 0.75s cast time (837 DPS) while Deadly Aim was showing 1046 damage, 0.75s cast time (1434 DPS)

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@Taril.8619 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:The trouble is that you do
less
damage while kneeling. The highest damage while kneeling is Three-Round Burst. It does less damage both per cast time and per initiative than skirmishers shot.

Err... No?

Unless there's some game mode that jankifies the damage numbers.

If I take my numbers from in game (PvE):

Skirmisher's Shot:
837 damage, 0.5s cast, 3 initiative (1674 DPS, 279 DPI)
Spotter's Shot:
1203 damage, 0.75s cast, 3 initiative (1604 DPS, 401 DPI)
Double Tap:
1360 damage, 0.75s cast, 4 initative (2232 DPS, 340 DPI)
Three Round Burst:
2355 damage, 1s cast, 4 initative (2355 DPS, 588.75 DPI)

Three Round Burst, is both the highest DPS (Damage per cast time) and DPI (Damage per initative) skill on DE Rifle. Followed by Double Tap.

The only damage loss from Kneel, is the damage per cast time of skill 2 where Spotter's Shot provides slightly less DPS than Skirmisher's Shot (But provides more DPI)

Not only this, but your AA's hit harder too. My
Brutal Aim
was showing 628 damage, 0.75s cast time (837 DPS) while
Deadly Aim
was showing 1046 damage, 0.75s cast time (1434 DPS)

Damage is different between PvE, and PvP/WvW. Initiative costs are too. Three Round Burst costs 6 initiative in PvP/WvW and does 1.5 damage for 1 second cast time. Skirmishers shot costs 3 initiative and does 0.8 damage for 0.5 seconds cast time. Or 1.6 if we compare second to second.

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@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:This isn't a Deadeye thread. If you want to discuss the details of another build with another set of skills, make a new one.

Sorry about that haha.

Tbh I stand by what I said earlier, unless pistol whip gets reverted to 5 initiative, I don't see it being that useable right now. The damage nerf was fine, even the stun duration nerf was fine, but the initiative nerf on top of the other two nerfs cuts both damage and sustain through evades, which is much more painful.

Edit for tiredness

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@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:I think that Anet needs to reevaluate a lot of the Initiative costs across all Thief weapons and skills, they have been extremely heavy handed when needing the skills themselves and increasing the resource costs.

Depends if they want thief to be anything other than a hit and run class, whether they do remains to be seen.

I noticed my phone has been autocorrecting nerfing to needing..

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@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:I think that Anet needs to reevaluate a lot of the Initiative costs across all Thief weapons and skills, they have been extremely heavy handed when needing the skills themselves and increasing the resource costs.

Depends if they want thief to be anything other than a hit and run class, whether they do remains to be seen.

I noticed my phone has been autocorrecting nerfing to needing..

Lol, honestly didn't notice, I guess my brain autocorrected it back ^^

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@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:I think that Anet needs to reevaluate a lot of the Initiative costs across all Thief weapons and skills, they have been extremely heavy handed when nerfing the skills themselves and increasing the resource costs.

It's appropriate for skills like Pistol Whip and Headshot to cost more initiative than your average skill, but the reward/risk should be balanced as well. Right now you can punish far more with a well-timed Black Powder or Headshot, than PW. A light armor class shouldn't be able to tank multiple PWs without an issue.

On the other hand, skills such as Shadow Shot had their initiative costs raised for a good cause, because being perma-blinded while soaking a decent quantity of damage wasn't exactly engaging or fun gameplay (despite what some other thief players may say, imo).

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@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:I think that Anet needs to reevaluate a lot of the Initiative costs across all Thief weapons and skills, they have been extremely heavy handed when nerfing the skills themselves and increasing the resource costs.

It's appropriate for skills like Pistol Whip and Headshot to cost more initiative than your average skill, but the reward/risk should be balanced as well. Right now you can punish far more with a well-timed Black Powder or Headshot, than PW. A light armor class shouldn't be able to tank multiple PWs without an issue.

On the other hand, skills such as Shadow Shot had their initiative costs raised for a good cause, because being perma-blinded while soaking a decent quantity of damage wasn't exactly engaging or fun gameplay (despite what some other thief players may say, imo).

Well, in HoT they went the route of increasing the auto attack damage instead. I can't help but feel that if the autos did more damage like they used to, we would be ok with these changes as the ini costing skills could then be more used for their utility than for their damage.

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@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:I think that Anet needs to reevaluate a lot of the Initiative costs across all Thief weapons and skills, they have been extremely heavy handed when nerfing the skills themselves and increasing the resource costs.

It's appropriate for skills like Pistol Whip and Headshot to cost more initiative than your average skill, but the reward/risk should be balanced as well. Right now you can punish far more with a well-timed Black Powder or Headshot, than PW. A light armor class shouldn't be able to tank multiple PWs without an issue.

On the other hand, skills such as Shadow Shot had their initiative costs raised for a good cause, because being perma-blinded while soaking a decent quantity of damage wasn't exactly engaging or fun gameplay (despite what some other thief players may say, imo).

Well, in HoT they went the route of increasing the auto attack damage instead. I can't help but feel that if the autos did more damage like they used to, we would be ok with these changes as the ini costing skills could then be more used for their utility than for their damage.

Indeed, but then people would be complaining regardless and the buff would be reverted. I'd rather not go this route, it solves nothing long-term.

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@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:I think that Anet needs to reevaluate a lot of the Initiative costs across all Thief weapons and skills, they have been extremely heavy handed when nerfing the skills themselves and increasing the resource costs.

It's appropriate for skills like Pistol Whip and Headshot to cost more initiative than your average skill, but the reward/risk should be balanced as well. Right now you can punish far more with a well-timed Black Powder or Headshot, than PW. A light armor class shouldn't be able to tank multiple PWs without an issue.

On the other hand, skills such as Shadow Shot had their initiative costs raised for a good cause, because being perma-blinded while soaking a decent quantity of damage wasn't exactly engaging or fun gameplay (despite what some other thief players may say, imo).

Well, in HoT they went the route of increasing the auto attack damage instead. I can't help but feel that if the autos did more damage like they used to, we would be ok with these changes as the ini costing skills could then be more used for their utility than for their damage.

That's pretty much how I used my kit a long time ago, except maybe I wove the different auto phases on some weapons with Initiative skills or utilities. I don't really bother with auto much right now except for projectiles to land blinds or something, the auto skills might be technically good and some phases have alright mods, but none of them are fast enough or have enough impact to put much thought into their use right now when I'm trying to close out a fight quick because the longer a fight is the less advantage my stats give.

If the devs absolutely refuse to adjust Initiative so that we're not priced out of using our weapon skills with the definition of the word initiative in mind then maybe allow auto phases (along with maybe utilities or deliberate actions that leave you open) to have a ramp up and wind down refund rate of Initiative based on continual and successful use (have to play with momentum and intensity with the risk of being close or opened up for targeting and retaliation), then make sure all of the auto animations and audio are snappy and impactful (more fun to use, helps opponent gauge your Initiative rate). Maybe other players find Initiative granting utilities or traits noticeable enough but I'd never take any of them for that aspect alone and don't really find that mod enough on any of them and they really can't hang with this game build anyway, I'd rather it be more deliberate and without cooldown or timed restrictions.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Pw dps is fine for what it does, more damage would lead to a nerf in other aspects of the skill. A better example of thief skills that need a damage buff are pulmonary impact and dagger autos as they are pathetic lol.

I'd be fine with a Pulmonary Impact -buff, too. Just anything that rewards outplaying, interrupting and timing your attacks with added damage.

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@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Pw dps is fine for what it does, more damage would lead to a nerf in other aspects of the skill. A better example of thief skills that need a damage buff are pulmonary impact and dagger autos as they are pathetic lol.

I'd be fine with a Pulmonary Impact -buff, too. Just
anything
that rewards outplaying, interrupting and timing your attacks with added damage.

PI definitely needs buffed, it was already so nerfed had the skipped it during the blanket patch it may have just made it to worth using state but this is anet so nope...I mean even if skill hit for 1k and procc'd one extra 1k hit if interrupting a skill it would actually be worth using, right now it's a useless trait.Have it live up to its name, skill hits for 1k and if interrupts deals no further damage but every 1.5 sec causes a 1/4 daze on target for 6 secs. Daze effect has 10 sec icd.

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