Everyone just runs away in WVW

HowlKamui.5120 · April 24, 2020

@Svarty.8019 said:
@CrimsonNeonite.1048 said:Not everyone has an optimal roaming build or they just want to avoid small scale fights, due to gankers or the meta in general.

A lot of us are just playing to be social on voice comms. We're not twitchy teenagers anymore, so we can't compete in the fights, Arenanet, in their wisdom, made the game about being responsive, knowledgeable and reactive. Normal people don't want to bother learning every skill on every class and most of us can't react even if we know what's coming. So it's pointless to try. That's why, if we see enemies, we run to the relative safety of our friends.

I hope that clears this topic up forever and we never see it on the forums again. Lol.

I'd love to see a poll of the age of the playerbase in this game now that I think about it

DeceiverX.8361 · April 24, 2020

@AliamRationem.5172 said:
@DeceiverX.8361 said:
@XenesisII.1540 said:
@DeceiverX.8361 said:
@XenesisII.1540 said:How are people still complaining about mounts when you have a button to dismount people....

Because when you have two people like the OP mentions, you can only dismount one, while the other mounted person gets free impossible-to-outrun movespeed, several thousand free bonus health, and a free nuke/instant stomp.

Without playing shortbow thief you just can't keep up. It's literally impossible. So person 1 waits on the mount while person 2 fights, if things get bad person presses mount stomp and engages with a 4-6k damage skill and fights to let the other disengage and get OOC. Now person 2 repeats this process because if you get so much as crippled, the guy who disengages can't be CC'ed or controlled since mounts ignore all CC and control effects.

Mounts absolutely destroyed small-scale on every single front and will keep it suppressed until they have zero in-combat advantages and basically act as free swiftness.

So yeah, people are still complaining. They only benefit omniblob/ktraining and actively directly counteract any incentives to play in small groups. It's like asking why people complain about balance and profession design. Just because it's in the game doesn't mean it's good.

That's no excuse. You kamikaze into an outnumber fight and any number of random things can happen in every area, regardless if they're on mounts or not, another roamer could join in, a cannon can hit you, guards can join in, a fat zerg could pass by. I don't care how skilled you may think you are, or whatever broken class you're playing, that doesn't give you a free pass to just 1v1 whenever wherever you want.

Even before mounts players were "roaming" in groups, good solo roaming has been dead for years even before mounts thanks to terribad class balance, and barely anyone would bother to leave a 1v1 to itself as they'd rather get an easy bag.

So now that you've thought about a likely scenario for that fight, pick better fights, choose a better area to engage, and keep note of possible escapes when things go wrong, which you should be doing for every single fight you get into in wvw. Everyone picks their fights these days, you can thank years of bad balance, the mounts, and salty nuts who always come back with friends for it all.

Problem is managing a 1v2 is usually done in two ways, forcing engagements and providing largely AoE damage, or forcing bad positioning and leveraging CC and cooldown advantages (I.E., they both used a skill and exploiting the openings), mobility to reset, and/or just keeping the other player at bay or locked into a fight depending on your class. 1vX isn't a damage race and it's why classes like thief, mesmer, and ranger almost always on their lower-damage, high-sustain/interruption/mobility builds (D/P SA thief, S/D Acro thief, condi mesmer/offtank Chrono, boonbunker Druid and Soulbeast, etc.) have the better 1vX gameplay. It's rarely a "go in and blow targets up so fast they can't react" gameplay pattern. If it was, we'd have seen D/D thief and power shatter core mesmer and A/A warrior all over the place the past few years.

The problem with mounts is you

can't

manage the mounted player. They have total agency of the fight, and their mount skill provides so much damage it alone can decide health trades and prioritize engages. There's no interrupting their engage, or their supportive skills, fixing their positioning, providing chip damage, resetting the fight, or anything like that.

Yeah if you throw yourself into a 1v2 and bring nothing to the table at all except playing DPS rush like PvE then sure, you'll have no advantages, but battlefield control is destroyed by mounted players and can quickly turn a fight with fast engage/re-engage on classes and builds which otherwise would be unable to do so.

This is a specious argument. Yes, you lose battlefield control if the second player remains mounted to prevent you from disengaging. However, that control comes at a cost of that player remaining out of the fight. You really have to ask yourself how were you going to win that fight if you were so ineffective 1v1 that the second player felt the better strategy was to prevent you from escaping rather than jumping in to help!

I've played high mobility/stealth roamers. It's great to be able to disengage and escape from fights when they go badly. But as a roamer, I just don't understand how we can blame the warclaw for killing roaming on the basis that it prevents roamers from endlessly disengaging. I look at that ability to disengage freely as something that really shouldn't exist and is more likely to kill roaming than things like the warclaw, which may actually help to counter that free disengagement (but don't really, in my experience). Is this really what you're saying or am I misunderstanding the argument?

Winning a 1vX isn't so much out-fighting two or more enemies but maintaining the control those other players have and abusing the minutia and playing around what you know you can get away with and not playing into what you can't. For example, a thief playing S/D sees two players right next to one another, one which is a ranger and the other which is an ele, and uses Sword 2 to engage the ele from behind longbow LOS and coming from the rear of the ranger to try and take it down quickly or steal its boons. Sword 2 hits up to three players with the immobilze, which prevents the ranger from being able to deal retaliatory damage since it's facing the wrong way without burning a cooldown, and so the thief gets either a free second of chunking into the ele and some boon theft to sustain the fight, or the ranger burns a cleanse right at the beginning. With LoS, cooldown advantages, and battlefield control, the thief can adapt focus and grind down one player or another.

You throw a mount on the ranger, and all of a sudden they have the HP trade priority since they can't be immobilized and can immediately turn and warclaw 1 damage the thief to deny pressure, the ele facing no subsequent pressure can posture defenses and/or chase to keep the thief in combat, and the ranger can disengage, OOC to mount, and regroup with the ele to run the thief down. Alternatively, the ranger can just ignore the thief altogether with the free bonus health safety and spend no resources to posture behind the LoS position to force the 1v2 into never favoring the thief, giving both the ranger and ele a resource advantage in the same scenario from what was previously a deficit. That 1 second of extra trade damage and not taking 25% max health from the warclaw helps dramatically in both scenarios.

Mind you, that's also assuming the solo player is the aggressor into known situations. We're not considering the more frequent aspect of 1vX, either, which is where additional enemies join the fight, as is often the case with squirrels and gankers. When on the defense, a normal reaction is to disengage to reset and reassess the fight to either totally run away or to try the outnumbered fight. But a mounted player hit by a stray AoE, or as is often the case in gank groups intentionally getting hit by a small amount of damage, forces the solo player to fight or be kept in combat and unable to reset, (and this is usually done by a tank so turning and burning isn't possible) to maintain combat status if the others need to mount up or take time to engage, because unless dealing enough damage to dismount the mounted player and then managing to escape before being caught by the rest of the group, the solo player cannot ever escape combat status and the fight always turns an advantage to the group with more players.

This is also applicable to say, a 2v3, where the third player on a tank can set the other two into combat status with mobility to always chase them down, while the others reset and catch up for free.

Resetting is a pretty crucial part of WvW as a whole, and in particular, fighting disadvantageous matchups from either a player count or class perspective. Mounts do a lot to stymie this

avey.4201 · April 25, 2020

I yolo zergs, I like small scale, but since anet trashed the balance, why try, I rather fly kites or close the game.Anet broke the game, power weapons do more damage wearing condi gear than zerk for guardian by proc'ing burning.I kill people with a 2016 meme build every day, but if they weren't so terrible I'd throw the fight, the reward vs the time/effort required to kill isn't worth investing any effort.

AliamRationem.5172 · April 25, 2020

@DeceiverX.8361 said:
@AliamRationem.5172 said:
@DeceiverX.8361 said:
@XenesisII.1540 said:
@DeceiverX.8361 said:
@XenesisII.1540 said:How are people still complaining about mounts when you have a button to dismount people....