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Everyone just runs away in WVW


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@Svarty.8019 said:

@CrimsonNeonite.1048 said:Not everyone has an optimal roaming build or they just want to avoid small scale fights, due to gankers or the meta in general.

A lot of us are just playing to be social on voice comms. We're not twitchy teenagers anymore, so we can't compete in the fights, Arenanet, in their wisdom, made the game about being responsive, knowledgeable and reactive. Normal people don't want to bother learning every skill on every class and most of us can't react even if we know what's coming. So it's pointless to try. That's why, if we see enemies, we run to the relative safety of our friends.

I hope that clears this topic up forever and we never see it on the forums again. Lol.

I'd love to see a poll of the age of the playerbase in this game now that I think about it

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@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@XenesisII.1540 said:How are people still complaining about mounts when you have a button to dismount people....

Because when you have two people like the OP mentions, you can only dismount one, while the other mounted person gets free impossible-to-outrun movespeed, several thousand free bonus health, and a free nuke/instant stomp.

Without playing shortbow thief you just can't keep up. It's literally impossible. So person 1 waits on the mount while person 2 fights, if things get bad person presses mount stomp and engages with a 4-6k damage skill and fights to let the other disengage and get OOC. Now person 2 repeats this process because if you get so much as crippled, the guy who disengages can't be CC'ed or controlled since mounts ignore all CC and control effects.

Mounts absolutely destroyed small-scale on every single front and will keep it suppressed until they have zero in-combat advantages and basically act as free swiftness.

So yeah, people are still complaining. They only benefit omniblob/ktraining and actively directly counteract any incentives to play in small groups. It's like asking why people complain about balance and profession design. Just because it's in the game doesn't mean it's good.

That's no excuse. You kamikaze into an outnumber fight and any number of random things can happen in every area, regardless if they're on mounts or not, another roamer could join in, a cannon can hit you, guards can join in, a fat zerg could pass by. I don't care how skilled you may think you are, or whatever broken class you're playing, that doesn't give you a free pass to just 1v1 whenever wherever you want.

Even before mounts players were "roaming" in groups, good solo roaming has been dead for years even before mounts thanks to terribad class balance, and barely anyone would bother to leave a 1v1 to itself as they'd rather get an easy bag.

So now that you've thought about a likely scenario for that fight, pick better fights, choose a better area to engage, and keep note of possible escapes when things go wrong, which you should be doing for every single fight you get into in wvw. Everyone picks their fights these days, you can thank years of bad balance, the mounts, and salty nuts who always come back with friends for it all.

Problem is managing a 1v2 is usually done in two ways, forcing engagements and providing largely AoE damage, or forcing bad positioning and leveraging CC and cooldown advantages (I.E., they both used a skill and exploiting the openings), mobility to reset, and/or just keeping the other player at bay or locked into a fight depending on your class. 1vX isn't a damage race and it's why classes like thief, mesmer, and ranger almost always on their lower-damage, high-sustain/interruption/mobility builds (D/P SA thief, S/D Acro thief, condi mesmer/offtank Chrono, boonbunker Druid and Soulbeast, etc.) have the better 1vX gameplay. It's rarely a "go in and blow targets up so fast they can't react" gameplay pattern. If it was, we'd have seen D/D thief and power shatter core mesmer and A/A warrior all over the place the past few years.

The problem with mounts is you
can't
manage the mounted player. They have total agency of the fight, and their mount skill provides so much damage it alone can decide health trades and prioritize engages. There's no interrupting their engage, or their supportive skills, fixing their positioning, providing chip damage, resetting the fight, or anything like that.

Yeah if you throw yourself into a 1v2 and bring nothing to the table at all except playing DPS rush like PvE then sure, you'll have no advantages, but battlefield control is destroyed by mounted players and can quickly turn a fight with fast engage/re-engage on classes and builds which otherwise would be unable to do so.

This is a specious argument. Yes, you lose battlefield control if the second player remains mounted to prevent you from disengaging. However, that control comes at a cost of that player remaining out of the fight. You really have to ask yourself how were you going to win that fight if you were so ineffective 1v1 that the second player felt the better strategy was to prevent you from escaping rather than jumping in to help!

I've played high mobility/stealth roamers. It's great to be able to disengage and escape from fights when they go badly. But as a roamer, I just don't understand how we can blame the warclaw for killing roaming on the basis that it prevents roamers from endlessly disengaging. I look at that ability to disengage freely as something that really shouldn't exist and is more likely to kill roaming than things like the warclaw, which may actually help to counter that free disengagement (but don't really, in my experience). Is this really what you're saying or am I misunderstanding the argument?

Winning a 1vX isn't so much out-fighting two or more enemies but maintaining the control those other players have and abusing the minutia and playing around what you know you can get away with and not playing into what you can't. For example, a thief playing S/D sees two players right next to one another, one which is a ranger and the other which is an ele, and uses Sword 2 to engage the ele from behind longbow LOS and coming from the rear of the ranger to try and take it down quickly or steal its boons. Sword 2 hits up to three players with the immobilze, which prevents the ranger from being able to deal retaliatory damage since it's facing the wrong way without burning a cooldown, and so the thief gets either a free second of chunking into the ele and some boon theft to sustain the fight, or the ranger burns a cleanse right at the beginning. With LoS, cooldown advantages, and battlefield control, the thief can adapt focus and grind down one player or another.

You throw a mount on the ranger, and all of a sudden they have the HP trade priority since they can't be immobilized and can immediately turn and warclaw 1 damage the thief to deny pressure, the ele facing no subsequent pressure can posture defenses and/or chase to keep the thief in combat, and the ranger can disengage, OOC to mount, and regroup with the ele to run the thief down. Alternatively, the ranger can just ignore the thief altogether with the free bonus health safety and spend no resources to posture behind the LoS position to force the 1v2 into never favoring the thief, giving both the ranger and ele a resource advantage in the same scenario from what was previously a deficit. That 1 second of extra trade damage and not taking 25% max health from the warclaw helps dramatically in both scenarios.

Mind you, that's also assuming the solo player is the aggressor into known situations. We're not considering the more frequent aspect of 1vX, either, which is where additional enemies join the fight, as is often the case with squirrels and gankers. When on the defense, a normal reaction is to disengage to reset and reassess the fight to either totally run away or to try the outnumbered fight. But a mounted player hit by a stray AoE, or as is often the case in gank groups intentionally getting hit by a small amount of damage, forces the solo player to fight or be kept in combat and unable to reset, (and this is usually done by a tank so turning and burning isn't possible) to maintain combat status if the others need to mount up or take time to engage, because unless dealing enough damage to dismount the mounted player and then managing to escape before being caught by the rest of the group, the solo player cannot ever escape combat status and the fight always turns an advantage to the group with more players.

This is also applicable to say, a 2v3, where the third player on a tank can set the other two into combat status with mobility to always chase them down, while the others reset and catch up for free.

Resetting is a pretty crucial part of WvW as a whole, and in particular, fighting disadvantageous matchups from either a player count or class perspective. Mounts do a lot to stymie this

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I yolo zergs, I like small scale, but since anet trashed the balance, why try, I rather fly kites or close the game.Anet broke the game, power weapons do more damage wearing condi gear than zerk for guardian by proc'ing burning.I kill people with a 2016 meme build every day, but if they weren't so terrible I'd throw the fight, the reward vs the time/effort required to kill isn't worth investing any effort.

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@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@XenesisII.1540 said:How are people still complaining about mounts when you have a button to dismount people....

Because when you have two people like the OP mentions, you can only dismount one, while the other mounted person gets free impossible-to-outrun movespeed, several thousand free bonus health, and a free nuke/instant stomp.

Without playing shortbow thief you just can't keep up. It's literally impossible. So person 1 waits on the mount while person 2 fights, if things get bad person presses mount stomp and engages with a 4-6k damage skill and fights to let the other disengage and get OOC. Now person 2 repeats this process because if you get so much as crippled, the guy who disengages can't be CC'ed or controlled since mounts ignore all CC and control effects.

Mounts absolutely destroyed small-scale on every single front and will keep it suppressed until they have zero in-combat advantages and basically act as free swiftness.

So yeah, people are still complaining. They only benefit omniblob/ktraining and actively directly counteract any incentives to play in small groups. It's like asking why people complain about balance and profession design. Just because it's in the game doesn't mean it's good.

That's no excuse. You kamikaze into an outnumber fight and any number of random things can happen in every area, regardless if they're on mounts or not, another roamer could join in, a cannon can hit you, guards can join in, a fat zerg could pass by. I don't care how skilled you may think you are, or whatever broken class you're playing, that doesn't give you a free pass to just 1v1 whenever wherever you want.

Even before mounts players were "roaming" in groups, good solo roaming has been dead for years even before mounts thanks to terribad class balance, and barely anyone would bother to leave a 1v1 to itself as they'd rather get an easy bag.

So now that you've thought about a likely scenario for that fight, pick better fights, choose a better area to engage, and keep note of possible escapes when things go wrong, which you should be doing for every single fight you get into in wvw. Everyone picks their fights these days, you can thank years of bad balance, the mounts, and salty nuts who always come back with friends for it all.

Problem is managing a 1v2 is usually done in two ways, forcing engagements and providing largely AoE damage, or forcing bad positioning and leveraging CC and cooldown advantages (I.E., they both used a skill and exploiting the openings), mobility to reset, and/or just keeping the other player at bay or locked into a fight depending on your class. 1vX isn't a damage race and it's why classes like thief, mesmer, and ranger almost always on their lower-damage, high-sustain/interruption/mobility builds (D/P SA thief, S/D Acro thief, condi mesmer/offtank Chrono, boonbunker Druid and Soulbeast, etc.) have the better 1vX gameplay. It's rarely a "go in and blow targets up so fast they can't react" gameplay pattern. If it was, we'd have seen D/D thief and power shatter core mesmer and A/A warrior all over the place the past few years.

The problem with mounts is you
can't
manage the mounted player. They have total agency of the fight, and their mount skill provides so much damage it alone can decide health trades and prioritize engages. There's no interrupting their engage, or their supportive skills, fixing their positioning, providing chip damage, resetting the fight, or anything like that.

Yeah if you throw yourself into a 1v2 and bring nothing to the table at all except playing DPS rush like PvE then sure, you'll have no advantages, but battlefield control is destroyed by mounted players and can quickly turn a fight with fast engage/re-engage on classes and builds which otherwise would be unable to do so.

This is a specious argument. Yes, you lose battlefield control if the second player remains mounted to prevent you from disengaging. However, that control comes at a cost of that player remaining out of the fight. You really have to ask yourself how were you going to win that fight if you were so ineffective 1v1 that the second player felt the better strategy was to prevent you from escaping rather than jumping in to help!

I've played high mobility/stealth roamers. It's great to be able to disengage and escape from fights when they go badly. But as a roamer, I just don't understand how we can blame the warclaw for killing roaming on the basis that it prevents roamers from endlessly disengaging. I look at that ability to disengage freely as something that really shouldn't exist and is more likely to kill roaming than things like the warclaw, which may actually help to counter that free disengagement (but don't really, in my experience). Is this really what you're saying or am I misunderstanding the argument?

Winning a 1vX isn't so much out-fighting two or more enemies but maintaining the control those other players have and abusing the minutia and playing around what you know you can get away with and not playing into what you can't. For example, a thief playing S/D sees two players right next to one another, one which is a ranger and the other which is an ele, and uses Sword 2 to engage the ele from behind longbow LOS and coming from the rear of the ranger to try and take it down quickly or steal its boons. Sword 2 hits up to three players with the immobilze, which prevents the ranger from being able to deal retaliatory damage since it's facing the wrong way without burning a cooldown, and so the thief gets either a free second of chunking into the ele and some boon theft to sustain the fight, or the ranger burns a cleanse right at the beginning. With LoS, cooldown advantages, and battlefield control, the thief can adapt focus and grind down one player or another.

You throw a mount on the ranger, and all of a sudden they have the HP trade priority since they can't be immobilized and can immediately turn and warclaw 1 damage the thief to deny pressure, the ele facing no subsequent pressure can posture defenses and/or chase to keep the thief in combat, and the ranger can disengage, OOC to mount, and regroup with the ele to run the thief down. Alternatively, the ranger can just ignore the thief altogether with the free bonus health safety and spend no resources to posture behind the LoS position to force the 1v2 into never favoring the thief, giving both the ranger and ele a resource advantage in the same scenario from what was previously a deficit. That 1 second of extra trade damage and not taking 25% max health from the warclaw helps dramatically in both scenarios.

Mind you, that's also assuming the solo player is the aggressor into known situations. We're not considering the more frequent aspect of 1vX, either, which is where additional enemies join the fight, as is often the case with squirrels and gankers. When on the defense, a normal reaction is to disengage to reset and reassess the fight to either totally run away or to try the outnumbered fight. But a mounted player hit by a stray AoE, or as is often the case in gank groups
intentionally
getting hit by a small amount of damage, forces the solo player to fight or be kept in combat and unable to reset, (and this is usually done by a tank so turning and burning isn't possible) to maintain combat status if the others need to mount up or take time to engage, because unless dealing enough damage to dismount the mounted player and
then
managing to escape before being caught by the rest of the group, the solo player cannot ever escape combat status and the fight always turns an advantage to the group with more players.

This is also applicable to say, a 2v3, where the third player on a tank can set the other two into combat status with mobility to always chase them down, while the others reset and catch up for free.

Resetting is a pretty crucial part of WvW as a whole, and in particular, fighting disadvantageous matchups from either a player count or class perspective. Mounts do a lot to stymie this

You are not guaranteed the ability to disengage at will from any fight and the warclaw interfering with your ability to do in outnumbered fights is not in any way a problem. Sorry!

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The game has been ruined since the combat avoidance cat entered the fray basically, i literally logged in today after a few months of not playing and it doesn't feel the same at all.

There is no real balance here tbh and most poeple in this game don't care about issues that positively affect them.

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+1

yesterday alone as another refreshing experience of the majority of players doing just that. Even some would be standing all the way in the back, just watching and would even run when the crowd would run away.

The Toxic Enormous Red Bubble bulldozing in the paths with non condition Necromancer Professions spamming conditions everywhere, and the endless gimmick pulls were just enough for me to join them.

Within 5 minutes, i watch group of players logging out after another including a Commander until there were about 8 players remaining with only one remaining Commander. I checked every map to see if they were there, no one, no Commander.

Op, you say no one want to fight in wvw, how about PvP?

Same reasons,

Toxicity doesn't give a kitten about others experience but only look at itself in the mirror and says- Look At Me, I Am Cool, I Can Do Whatever I Want, I Dont Give A Kitten, Like It Or Not-I Will Be Toxic As Long As I Want, Get Out Of My Way Or Else!!

This the attitude and behavior of Guild Wars 2 vs Guild Wars 1 clear message to Toxicity, I DARe YOU!!

Running away is not enough, one can put up with Toxicity for so long until you hate the experience and not play anymore

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@anduriell.6280 said:

@mikdepadua.8376 said:I've been playing sPVP for a while and recently started doing some world vs world. I also play ESO for reference btw. Everything in GW2 is better than ESO in all aspects (the responsiveness of the game/ the mechanics/ the classes) except for one: no one wants to fight in WVW as compared to cyrodiil. Everyone just runs away, or fights you for a while before porting back in their towers.

Everyone just seems to just want to zerg. Don't get me wrong, ball groups are fun and all, but i want small scale fights or duels while roaming the map. Am I doing something wrong here?

That's weird. Are you ganking lonners with 5 other allies? I don't have any trouble finding 1V1 against thiefs, warriors or reapers.

Yeah was thinking the same thing.

I'm on Borlis Pass, and all I have to do to catch immediate 1v1s or 1vXs is to go solo roam around to camps, mission accomplished.

@mikdepadua.8376

Maybe you're looking for fights in the wrong places. If you're solo roaming or small havoc, force players to contest objectives against you. Guarantee you people will stay to fight, if you're about to take a supply camp or a tower.

If you are on the other hand blobbing around inside of a 20+ man zerg, then yeah people will run from you unless they have similar numbers or some elite 10 man crew that is feeling lucky enough to roll into you on purpose.

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@"Burnfall.9573" said:+1

yesterday alone as another refreshing experience of the majority of players doing just that. Even some would be standing all the way in the back, just watching and would even run when the crowd would run away.

The Toxic Enormous Red Bubble bulldozing in the paths with non condition Necromancer Professions spamming conditions everywhere, and the endless gimmick pulls were just enough for me to join them.

Within 5 minutes, i watch group of players logging out after another including a Commander until there were about 8 players remaining with only one remaining Commander. I checked every map to see if they were there, no one, no Commander.

Op, you say no one want to fight in wvw, how about PvP?

Same reasons,

Toxicity doesn't give a kitten about others experience but only look at itself in the mirror and says- Look At Me, I Am Cool, I Can Do Whatever I Want, I Dont Give A Kitten, Like It Or Not-I Will Be Toxic As Long As I Want, Get Out Of My Way Or Else!!

This the attitude and behavior of Guild Wars 2 vs Guild Wars 1 clear message to Toxicity, I DARe YOU!!

Running away is not enough, one can put up with Toxicity for so long until you hate the experience and not play anymore

Toxic Enormous Red Bubble In Action

  • 1-10 Bubbles at the same time...WHAT IS THE CONNECTION BETWEEN BUBBLES AND A FRONTLINER PROFESSION??!!
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@Anput.4620 said:

@XenesisII.1540 said:How are people still complaining about mounts when you have a button to dismount people....

How will you reach their mount to use your dismount button?Use your mount, duh.

But they are the exact same speed meaning you can never catch up and run away infinitely.

So go look for another target you desperate ganker.

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@XenesisII.1540 said:

@XenesisII.1540 said:How are people still complaining about mounts when you have a button to dismount people....

How will you reach their mount to use your dismount button?Use your mount, duh.

But they are the exact same speed meaning you can never catch up and run away infinitely.

So go look for another target you desperate ganker.

Describes it perfectly.

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@Anput.4620 said:

@XenesisII.1540 said:How are people still complaining about mounts when you have a button to dismount people....

How will you reach their mount to use your dismount button?Use your mount, duh.

But they are the exact same speed meaning you can never catch up and run away infinitely.

People could do that before too if they had a superior mobility class than you...

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@mikdepadua.8376 said:

@CrimsonNeonite.1048 said:Not everyone has an optimal roaming build or they just want to avoid small scale fights, due to gankers or the meta in general.

A lot of us are just playing to be social on voice comms. We're not twitchy teenagers anymore, so we can't compete in the fights, Arenanet, in their wisdom, made the game about being responsive, knowledgeable and reactive. Normal people don't want to bother learning every skill on every class and most of us can't react even if we know what's coming. So it's pointless to try. That's why, if we see enemies, we run to the relative safety of our friends.

I hope that clears this topic up forever and we never see it on the forums again. Lol.

I'd love to see a poll of the age of the playerbase in this game now that I think about it

Good luck getting a reliable result. In the UK, for one, there is a social stigma against old people playing video games.

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@XenesisII.1540 said:

@XenesisII.1540 said:How are people still complaining about mounts when you have a button to dismount people....

How will you reach their mount to use your dismount button?Use your mount, duh.

But they are the exact same speed meaning you can never catch up and run away infinitely.

So go look for another target you desperate ganker.

You know that the exact same will happen, nothing is wrong with wanting to engage in PvP combat in a PvP, stop trying to create a ridiculous stigma lmao. I also only play alone, i never gank poeple.

There are no other targets, whenever i try this game again after warclaw every few months it feels dead, zero action.

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@XenesisII.1540 said:How are people still complaining about mounts when you have a button to dismount people....

How will you reach their mount to use your dismount button?Use your mount, duh.

But they are the exact same speed meaning you can never catch up and run away infinitely.

So go look for another target you desperate ganker.

Describes it perfectly.

Are you one of those PvE casuals you described or smth?

"Killing bads bad" isn't a real argument.

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@Svarty.8019 said:

@CrimsonNeonite.1048 said:Not everyone has an optimal roaming build or they just want to avoid small scale fights, due to gankers or the meta in general.

A lot of us are just playing to be social on voice comms. We're not twitchy teenagers anymore, so we can't compete in the fights, Arenanet, in their wisdom, made the game about being responsive, knowledgeable and reactive. Normal people don't want to bother learning every skill on every class and most of us can't react even if we know what's coming. So it's pointless to try. That's why, if we see enemies, we run to the relative safety of our friends.

I hope that clears this topic up forever and we never see it on the forums again. Lol.

I'd love to see a poll of the age of the playerbase in this game now that I think about it

Good luck getting a reliable result. In the UK, for one, there is a social stigma against old people playing video games.

What? That's so prehistoric view

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@Anput.4620 said:You know that the exact same will happen, nothing is wrong with wanting to engage in PvP combat in a PvP, stop trying to create a ridiculous stigma lmao. I also only play alone, i never gank poeple.

There are no other targets, whenever i try this game again after warclaw every few months it feels dead, zero action.

You make yourself look like one of those desperates that just sits on a hill waiting for something to come to you and die, and if they run it's now the biggest issue of having to chase them half a map, for one person, I remember when the gankers would laugh about zergs chasing them half a map, now look who's the joke.

Instead you should be camping high traffic areas like people running to defend, camps, sentries, setting ambushes, especially if on dead maps (and if you're preying on pve'er upgrading a dead map then what honestly do you expect to find, it's obviously not their best fighters). If someone doesn't want to 1v1 and manages to run away, then who cares, move on to the next target.

They're already nerfed the speed, dodge, and installed ez one touch dismount, mounts obviously ain't leaving the game mode, accept it and adapt or move on.

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As people stated: there are different builds and different functions in wvw. Most players run builds that are useful only in large group fight, but are completely ineffective in small scale combats.I run group combat build, so why should I do 1x1 if I have no chance at all against a roamer build? I run if I can. WvW is not PvP.

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@Sovereign.1093 said:

@"CrimsonNeonite.1048" said:Not everyone has an optimal roaming build or they just want to avoid small scale fights, due to gankers or the meta in general.

A lot of us are just playing to be social on voice comms. We're not twitchy teenagers anymore, so we can't compete in the fights, Arenanet, in their wisdom, made the game about being responsive, knowledgeable and reactive. Normal people don't want to bother learning every skill on every class and most of us can't react even if we know what's coming. So it's pointless to try. That's why, if we see enemies, we run to the relative safety of our friends.

I hope that clears this topic up forever and we never see it on the forums again. Lol.

I'd love to see a poll of the age of the playerbase in this game now that I think about it

Good luck getting a reliable result. In the UK, for one, there is a social stigma against old people playing video games.

What? That's so prehistoric view

You only have to watch how the British state broadcast network "BBC" treats video games. As soon as they mention them it's "teenagers this" and "young adults that".

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@Svarty.8019 said:

@"CrimsonNeonite.1048" said:Not everyone has an optimal roaming build or they just want to avoid small scale fights, due to gankers or the meta in general.

A lot of us are just playing to be social on voice comms. We're not twitchy teenagers anymore, so we can't compete in the fights, Arenanet, in their wisdom, made the game about being responsive, knowledgeable and reactive. Normal people don't want to bother learning every skill on every class and most of us can't react even if we know what's coming. So it's pointless to try. That's why, if we see enemies, we run to the relative safety of our friends.

I hope that clears this topic up forever and we never see it on the forums again. Lol.

I'd love to see a poll of the age of the playerbase in this game now that I think about it

Good luck getting a reliable result. In the UK, for one, there is a social stigma against old people playing video games.

What? That's so prehistoric view

You only have to watch how the British
network "BBC" treats video games. As soon as they mention them it's "teenagers this" and "young adults that".

It is like treating a techy bad because they don't understand why using a calculator is better than abacus.

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