I know everyone forgot about reaper with Scourge, but power reaper still needs buffs.

[Conncept.7638]

@Muchacho.2390 said:So yes, you are incorrect because you use the wrong numbers.

You apparently need the same advice. The wiki is updated by players, not the devs, and is fallible, even the numbers I used are a player calculation that is off to some degree. You know what is updated by the devs? The skill facts I used directly from the game, and while admittedly not exact, I'd take them over a number a nobody put on the wiki without any reference.

I mean for cripes sakes does anyone ever ask questions around here? Does anyone figure out crap for themselves? Go into the game and measure them yourself, with your bear friggin' eye if that's all you have, look at those two attack chains and tell me they complete in nearly the exact same time frame, because they don't, reaper shroud completes visibly faster, let alone when precisely measured.

[Zefiris.8297]

@Obtena.7952 said:Let's go back in this thread to the first post ... people were crapping all over the 10% damage buff with the reaper trait change ... but that does helps power reaper ... it's even a buff that we got.

People are crapping over it because it does not solve the problem. If a house is on fire, and you place a single water bottle next to the house and leave, you're not helping. You need to actually bring the proper amount of water (or chemicals that suffocate fire) instead.

[dceptaconroy.7928]

Righto im gonna talk for a few of us or maybe.. just me. I cbf'd with meta how about we do a comparable amount of dps to any of the middling classes out there. Its just obvious as fudge we're sub par. Even Sir Derpenstein can see it.

[Muchacho.2390]

@Conncept.7638 said:

@Muchacho.2390 said:So yes, you are incorrect because you use the wrong numbers.

You apparently need the same advice. The wiki is updated by players, not the devs, and is fallible, even the numbers I used are a player calculation that is off to some degree. You know what is updated by the devs? The skill facts I used directly from the game, and while admittedly not exact, I'd take them over a number a nobody put on the wiki without any reference.

I mean for cripes sakes does anyone ever ask questions around here? Does anyone figure out crap for themselves? Go into the game and measure them yourself, with your bear friggin' eye if that's all you have, look at those two attack chains and tell me they complete in nearly the exact same time frame, because they don't, reaper shroud completes

visibly

faster, let alone when precisely measured.

No the numbers on the wiki are correct.

It is just you who doesnt use the numbers correctly. But lets go back to your calculations. You said the rs auto sequence was 1.5 secs long. You obviously got this number but adding the casttimes on the tooltips. But there is one problem with that. The tooltips dont have the aftercasts included, not to mention that in most cases the tooltips are even incorrect (heck deathshroud tooltip was incorrect for over a year). In this case its the aftercasts.

And for you info most of the stuff i actually tested myself (so no i dont trust those numbers blindly). I am 100% certain that our gs auto does more dps then the rs auto.

Also i never said that the two autos have nearly the exact same time frame. Honestly i dont even see how you could get to such a statemant with the numbers i posted.

[Zenith.7301]

This Conncept guy swears he's the one guy in the world who thought of testing reaper shroud DPS. It could never occur to qT, KING, or SC to test these numbers at all.

Nope, only Conncept and his open world PvE feelycraft is correct.

[Obtena.7952]

@Zefiris.8297 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Let's go back in this thread to the first post ... people were crapping all over the 10% damage buff with the reaper trait change ... but that does helps power reaper ... it's even a buff that we got.

People are crapping over it because it does not solve the problem. If a house is on fire, and you place a single water bottle next to the house and leave, you're not helping. You need to actually bring the proper amount of water (or chemicals that suffocate fire) instead.

Again, what IS the problem you are trying solve? It's NOT increasing damage on power necro; that much I can tell from the conversatin ... so what is it? If I can't tell what the problem is, how do you think Anet is going to solve your problem? I can tell you right now .. they are going to develop their OWN problem statement and solve it ... and if the problem they identify doesn't match the one everyone else wants solved, guess what happens ...

So yes ... I am being helpful ... WHAT is this problem that you are attempting to solve? The only reason that anyone would avoid that question is because they don't know and simply know they want buffs on power reaper, regardless if it solves a problem or not. Call me crazy, but I don't see Anet working that way; randomly throwing buffs here and there because there is nothing wrong ... just doesn't happen.

[kKagari.6804]

@Conncept.7638 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:

@Conncept.7638 said:Power reaper doesn't need buffs so much as the necromancer needs to gain shroud without having to constantly kill mobs, reaper or otherwise.

The idea behind the reaper was that your high point of damage would be inside reaper shroud, as opposed to that being your tank and attrition state, which really does work great in a lot of place. I cruise through the HoT maps on my power reaper easier and faster than with several characters I am much better with and whose builds are viable in far more places. But that only works because there are sufficient squishy mobs to keep me in reapershroud at all times. Go in to PvP, WvW, or any boss-based PvE content, and reaper is suddenly a high damage class without access to its high damage.

REAPER SHROUD IS NOT HIGH DAMAGE. IT IS A DPS LOSS TO CAMPING GREATSWORD AUTOATTACKS AND GRAVEDIGGER.

THIS IS WHY DPS METERS SHOULD BE MANDATORY FOR EVERYONE. So crap like this doesn't get spouted right and left.

And you've tested that how? You can't stay in reaper shroud long enough to calculate it's DPS under the raid conditions everyone else's DPS is tested under.

And checking the wiki, reapershrouds auto does 731+2.75(power) over 1.5 seconds while greatsword auto does 1452+3.6(power) over 2.5 seconds. Plug those into an even 1000 power, and that makes 5052 for the reapershroud per chain completion, and 3952 per completion of the greatsword auto. But wait! We're talking damage per

second

, not per chain completion, and a second of the greatsword auto is 66% of that total, while a second of the greatsword auto is only 40% of the total. Calculating that, 40% of the greatswords 5052 is only 2020 dps, while 66% of the reapershroud 3952 is 2608. Making that the greatsword auto a DPS loss of 22% over the reapershroud auto.

Or, in short, I'm not the one spouting off incorrect information, and you're the one parroting information you assume is correct without checking your facts.

Holy mother of Kormir that is not how you calculate damage.

Average Damage = {[Power [(critical damage/critical chance) + 1] mean weapon strength damage coefficient damage modifiers] / enemy's armor.} / time

Now because we are conducting the test on the same target with the same stats, the only variables that matter are the damage coefficients and time, the others are the same.Reaper's Shroud auto is 2.75 over 2.37 seconds, which equals 1.16 per second.Greatsword auto is 3.6 over 2.88 seconds, which equals 1.25 per second.

This essentially means Reaper's Shroud auto is 8% less damage than Greatsword auto. Even less if you entered shroud using a one handed weapon.

The damage value on the tooltip has absolutely no relevance to how the damage is actually calculated, only the coefficient matters.

[Vitali.5039]

@Obtena.7952 said:So yes ... I am being helpful ... WHAT is this problem that you are attempting to solve?The low damage of a non support/tank/healer build

@Obtena.7952 said:Call me crazy, but I don't see Anet working that way; randomly throwing buffs here and there because there is nothing wrong ... just doesn't happen.They don't do it frequently but reworks happens. Like the Zeal/Radiance trait line for guardians.The build was not bad for Big Hitbox but the "meta" traits get better and the worse one was reworked.But we are talking about another profession here.. so yes, randomly throwing buffs on necromancer's traits just doesn't happen.But even we got some buff even if not enough to improve the damage on pair on other non support/tank/healer builds

Maybe more power coefficients on skills, maybe more useful traits, some rework or something new.. like moving tanky traits all together to Death Magic to remove the tanky-professions-can't-do-damage philosophy, icrease rotation complexity adding stacking buff to certain actions (like putting a "Attacker's Insight"-like effect to Chilling Victory).. something to increase the profession's damage or allied damage (like turning Reaper's Onslaught to an Aura Effect) to be gladly accepted in every PvE scenario.Not mandatory as you could know what professions but even not rejected at first sight.

[Muchacho.2390]

@kKagari.6804 said:

@Conncept.7638 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:

@Conncept.7638 said:Power reaper doesn't need buffs so much as the necromancer needs to gain shroud without having to constantly kill mobs, reaper or otherwise.

The idea behind the reaper was that your high point of damage would be inside reaper shroud, as opposed to that being your tank and attrition state, which really does work great in a lot of place. I cruise through the HoT maps on my power reaper easier and faster than with several characters I am much better with and whose builds are viable in far more places. But that only works because there are sufficient squishy mobs to keep me in reapershroud at all times. Go in to PvP, WvW, or any boss-based PvE content, and reaper is suddenly a high damage class without access to its high damage.

REAPER SHROUD IS NOT HIGH DAMAGE. IT IS A DPS LOSS TO CAMPING GREATSWORD AUTOATTACKS AND GRAVEDIGGER.

THIS IS WHY DPS METERS SHOULD BE MANDATORY FOR EVERYONE. So crap like this doesn't get spouted right and left.

And you've tested that how? You can't stay in reaper shroud long enough to calculate it's DPS under the raid conditions everyone else's DPS is tested under.

And checking the wiki, reapershrouds auto does 731+2.75(power) over 1.5 seconds while greatsword auto does 1452+3.6(power) over 2.5 seconds. Plug those into an even 1000 power, and that makes 5052 for the reapershroud per chain completion, and 3952 per completion of the greatsword auto. But wait! We're talking damage per

second

, not per chain completion, and a second of the greatsword auto is 66% of that total, while a second of the greatsword auto is only 40% of the total. Calculating that, 40% of the greatswords 5052 is only 2020 dps, while 66% of the reapershroud 3952 is 2608. Making that the greatsword auto a DPS loss of 22% over the reapershroud auto.

Or, in short, I'm not the one spouting off incorrect information, and you're the one parroting information you assume is correct without checking your facts.

Holy mother of Kormir that is not how you calculate damage.

Average Damage = {Power

[(critical damage/critical chance) + 1]

mean weapon strength

damage coefficient

damage modifiers / enemy's armor.} / time

Now because we are conducting the test on the same target with the same stats, the only variables that matter are the damage coefficients, the others are the same.Reaper's Shroud auto is 2.75 over 2.37 seconds, which equals 1.16 per second.Greatsword auto is 3.6 over 2.88 seconds, which equals 1.25 per second.

This essentially means Reaper's Shroud auto is 8% less damage than Greatsword auto. Even less if you entered shroud using a one handed weapon.

The damage value on the tooltip has absolutely no relevance to how the damage is actually calculated, only the coefficient matters.

Correct but for those who want to know what the number on the tooltip is:

Tooltip number = [number of hits (for multi hitting skills)] average weapon strength power * skill coefficent / level based armor value (at level 80 it is 2597 which is the heavy golems armor by the way)

Though i wanna add that reaper shroud actually uses a hammer for its weapon strength (unlike death shroud which uses the weapon you had equipped when entering shroud). Atleast thats how it used to be, i am not sure maybe they stealth changed it but i dont wanna test it now. Thats how i got my hammer master achievement by the way...

[kKagari.6804]

@Muchacho.2390 said:

@kKagari.6804 said:

@Conncept.7638 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:

@Conncept.7638 said:Power reaper doesn't need buffs so much as the necromancer needs to gain shroud without having to constantly kill mobs, reaper or otherwise.

The idea behind the reaper was that your high point of damage would be inside reaper shroud, as opposed to that being your tank and attrition state, which really does work great in a lot of place. I cruise through the HoT maps on my power reaper easier and faster than with several characters I am much better with and whose builds are viable in far more places. But that only works because there are sufficient squishy mobs to keep me in reapershroud at all times. Go in to PvP, WvW, or any boss-based PvE content, and reaper is suddenly a high damage class without access to its high damage.

REAPER SHROUD IS NOT HIGH DAMAGE. IT IS A DPS LOSS TO CAMPING GREATSWORD AUTOATTACKS AND GRAVEDIGGER.

THIS IS WHY DPS METERS SHOULD BE MANDATORY FOR EVERYONE. So crap like this doesn't get spouted right and left.

And you've tested that how? You can't stay in reaper shroud long enough to calculate it's DPS under the raid conditions everyone else's DPS is tested under.

And checking the wiki, reapershrouds auto does 731+2.75(power) over 1.5 seconds while greatsword auto does 1452+3.6(power) over 2.5 seconds. Plug those into an even 1000 power, and that makes 5052 for the reapershroud per chain completion, and 3952 per completion of the greatsword auto. But wait! We're talking damage per

second

, not per chain completion, and a second of the greatsword auto is 66% of that total, while a second of the greatsword auto is only 40% of the total. Calculating that, 40% of the greatswords 5052 is only 2020 dps, while 66% of the reapershroud 3952 is 2608. Making that the greatsword auto a DPS loss of 22% over the reapershroud auto.

Or, in short, I'm not the one spouting off incorrect information, and you're the one parroting information you assume is correct without checking your facts.

Holy mother of Kormir that is not how you calculate damage.

Average Damage = {Power

[(critical damage/critical chance) + 1]

mean weapon strength

damage coefficient

damage modifiers / enemy's armor.} / time

Now because we are conducting the test on the same target with the same stats, the only variables that matter are the damage coefficients, the others are the same.Reaper's Shroud auto is 2.75 over 2.37 seconds, which equals 1.16 per second.Greatsword auto is 3.6 over 2.88 seconds, which equals 1.25 per second.

This essentially means Reaper's Shroud auto is 8% less damage than Greatsword auto. Even less if you entered shroud using a one handed weapon.

The damage value on the tooltip has absolutely no relevance to how the damage is actually calculated, only the coefficient matters.

Correct but for those who want to know what the number on the tooltip is:

Tooltip number = [number of hits (for multi hitting skills)]

average weapon strength

power * skill coefficent / level based armor value (at level 80 it is 2597 which is the heavy golems armor by the way)

Though i wanna add that reaper shroud actually uses a hammer for its weapon strength (unlike death shroud which uses the weapon you had equipped when entering shroud). Atleast thats how it used to be, i am not sure maybe they stealth changed it but i dont wanna test it now. Thats how i got my hammer master achievement by the way...

I don't think it uses the hammer's damage calculation, just its classification for the achievement. IIRC you do considerably less damage if you had a common weapon in one weapon set, and an ascended weapon in another.

[Muchacho.2390]

@kKagari.6804 said:

@Muchacho.2390 said:

@kKagari.6804 said:

@Conncept.7638 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:

@Conncept.7638 said:Power reaper doesn't need buffs so much as the necromancer needs to gain shroud without having to constantly kill mobs, reaper or otherwise.

The idea behind the reaper was that your high point of damage would be inside reaper shroud, as opposed to that being your tank and attrition state, which really does work great in a lot of place. I cruise through the HoT maps on my power reaper easier and faster than with several characters I am much better with and whose builds are viable in far more places. But that only works because there are sufficient squishy mobs to keep me in reapershroud at all times. Go in to PvP, WvW, or any boss-based PvE content, and reaper is suddenly a high damage class without access to its high damage.

REAPER SHROUD IS NOT HIGH DAMAGE. IT IS A DPS LOSS TO CAMPING GREATSWORD AUTOATTACKS AND GRAVEDIGGER.

THIS IS WHY DPS METERS SHOULD BE MANDATORY FOR EVERYONE. So crap like this doesn't get spouted right and left.

And you've tested that how? You can't stay in reaper shroud long enough to calculate it's DPS under the raid conditions everyone else's DPS is tested under.

And checking the wiki, reapershrouds auto does 731+2.75(power) over 1.5 seconds while greatsword auto does 1452+3.6(power) over 2.5 seconds. Plug those into an even 1000 power, and that makes 5052 for the reapershroud per chain completion, and 3952 per completion of the greatsword auto. But wait! We're talking damage per

second

, not per chain completion, and a second of the greatsword auto is 66% of that total, while a second of the greatsword auto is only 40% of the total. Calculating that, 40% of the greatswords 5052 is only 2020 dps, while 66% of the reapershroud 3952 is 2608. Making that the greatsword auto a DPS loss of 22% over the reapershroud auto.

Or, in short, I'm not the one spouting off incorrect information, and you're the one parroting information you assume is correct without checking your facts.

Holy mother of Kormir that is not how you calculate damage.

Average Damage = {Power

[(critical damage/critical chance) + 1]

mean weapon strength

damage coefficient

damage modifiers / enemy's armor.} / time

Now because we are conducting the test on the same target with the same stats, the only variables that matter are the damage coefficients, the others are the same.Reaper's Shroud auto is 2.75 over 2.37 seconds, which equals 1.16 per second.Greatsword auto is 3.6 over 2.88 seconds, which equals 1.25 per second.

This essentially means Reaper's Shroud auto is 8% less damage than Greatsword auto. Even less if you entered shroud using a one handed weapon.

The damage value on the tooltip has absolutely no relevance to how the damage is actually calculated, only the coefficient matters.

Correct but for those who want to know what the number on the tooltip is:

Tooltip number = [number of hits (for multi hitting skills)]

average weapon strength

power * skill coefficent / level based armor value (at level 80 it is 2597 which is the heavy golems armor by the way)

Though i wanna add that reaper shroud actually uses a hammer for its weapon strength (unlike death shroud which uses the weapon you had equipped when entering shroud). Atleast thats how it used to be, i am not sure maybe they stealth changed it but i dont wanna test it now. Thats how i got my hammer master achievement by the way...

I don't think it uses the hammer's damage calculation, just its classification for the achievement. IIRC you do considerably less damage if you had a common weapon in one weapon set, and an ascended weapon in another.

Nope its independent of your equipped weapon. Its easy to test, use rs with and with out a weapon and it still does the same damage unlike death shroud. Just tested it in the mists on the golems so i can assume there was no change.

Of course you are right there is a difference in how rare the weapon is. So i should be more precise but i dont know anymore if it was an exotic or an ascended hammer hence i only said hammer. Though i think it uses the highest possible weapon strength also ascended rarity but i could be wrong on this one (well thats the one that mkes the most sense).

[kKagari.6804]

@Muchacho.2390 said:

@kKagari.6804 said:

@Muchacho.2390 said:

@kKagari.6804 said:

@Conncept.7638 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:

@Conncept.7638 said:Power reaper doesn't need buffs so much as the necromancer needs to gain shroud without having to constantly kill mobs, reaper or otherwise.

The idea behind the reaper was that your high point of damage would be inside reaper shroud, as opposed to that being your tank and attrition state, which really does work great in a lot of place. I cruise through the HoT maps on my power reaper easier and faster than with several characters I am much better with and whose builds are viable in far more places. But that only works because there are sufficient squishy mobs to keep me in reapershroud at all times. Go in to PvP, WvW, or any boss-based PvE content, and reaper is suddenly a high damage class without access to its high damage.

REAPER SHROUD IS NOT HIGH DAMAGE. IT IS A DPS LOSS TO CAMPING GREATSWORD AUTOATTACKS AND GRAVEDIGGER.

THIS IS WHY DPS METERS SHOULD BE MANDATORY FOR EVERYONE. So crap like this doesn't get spouted right and left.

And you've tested that how? You can't stay in reaper shroud long enough to calculate it's DPS under the raid conditions everyone else's DPS is tested under.

And checking the wiki, reapershrouds auto does 731+2.75(power) over 1.5 seconds while greatsword auto does 1452+3.6(power) over 2.5 seconds. Plug those into an even 1000 power, and that makes 5052 for the reapershroud per chain completion, and 3952 per completion of the greatsword auto. But wait! We're talking damage per

second

, not per chain completion, and a second of the greatsword auto is 66% of that total, while a second of the greatsword auto is only 40% of the total. Calculating that, 40% of the greatswords 5052 is only 2020 dps, while 66% of the reapershroud 3952 is 2608. Making that the greatsword auto a DPS loss of 22% over the reapershroud auto.

Or, in short, I'm not the one spouting off incorrect information, and you're the one parroting information you assume is correct without checking your facts.

Holy mother of Kormir that is not how you calculate damage.

Average Damage = {Power

[(critical damage/critical chance) + 1]

mean weapon strength

damage coefficient

damage modifiers / enemy's armor.} / time

Now because we are conducting the test on the same target with the same stats, the only variables that matter are the damage coefficients, the others are the same.Reaper's Shroud auto is 2.75 over 2.37 seconds, which equals 1.16 per second.Greatsword auto is 3.6 over 2.88 seconds, which equals 1.25 per second.

This essentially means Reaper's Shroud auto is 8% less damage than Greatsword auto. Even less if you entered shroud using a one handed weapon.

The damage value on the tooltip has absolutely no relevance to how the damage is actually calculated, only the coefficient matters.

Correct but for those who want to know what the number on the tooltip is:

Tooltip number = [number of hits (for multi hitting skills)]

average weapon strength

power * skill coefficent / level based armor value (at level 80 it is 2597 which is the heavy golems armor by the way)

Though i wanna add that reaper shroud actually uses a hammer for its weapon strength (unlike death shroud which uses the weapon you had equipped when entering shroud). Atleast thats how it used to be, i am not sure maybe they stealth changed it but i dont wanna test it now. Thats how i got my hammer master achievement by the way...

I don't think it uses the hammer's damage calculation, just its classification for the achievement. IIRC you do considerably less damage if you had a common weapon in one weapon set, and an ascended weapon in another.

Nope its independent of your equipped weapon. Its easy to test, use rs with and with out a weapon and it still does the same damage unlike death shroud. Just tested it in the mists on the golems so i can assume there was no change.

Ah, right.

[Obtena.7952]

@Vitali.5039 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:So yes ... I am being helpful ... WHAT is this problem that you are attempting to solve?The low damage of a non support/tank/healer build

So why is that a buff to power reaper? Is power reaper the best place to solve that low damage problem of a non support/tank/healer build? What does a non support/tank/healer build even mean? Seems to me that's not the problem OTHER people are trying to solve ... damage was increased on power reaper 10% ... that's a solution to increasing power reaper build, they crapped on it. So No, I don't see people wanting to solve the problem of low damage of a non support/tank/healer build because any buff they get that isn't meta is apparently a failure to them. Again, what is the problem wanting to be solved? From what I can tell, the problem is that power reaper isn't meta. That's a DIFFERENT problem than the one you are talking about.

@Obtena.7952 said:Call me crazy, but I don't see Anet working that way; randomly throwing buffs here and there because there is nothing wrong ... just doesn't happen.They don't do it frequently but reworks happens. Like the Zeal/Radiance trait line for guardians.

It sure does, but that's not what I was disagreeing with. Rework happens for a reason, not just random "I want this". Again, what problem is this thread trying to solve? If I have to ask, you know Anet is wondering too.

[Vitali.5039]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Vitali.5039 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:So yes ... I am being helpful ... WHAT is this problem that you are attempting to solve?The low damage of a non support/tank/healer build

So why is that a buff to power reaper?Well, increasing DPS its a buff right?

@Obtena.7952 said:Is power reaper the best place to solve that low damage problem of a non support/tank/healer build?Maybe core trait lines are better but even the elite line isnt a bad place for a buff.

@Obtena.7952 said:What does a non support/tank/healer build even mean?Means that the purpose of the build is to not increase overall group fighting effectiveness/keep aggro/heal.

@Obtena.7952 said:Seems to me that's not the problem OTHER people are trying to solve ... damage was increased on power reaper 10% ... that's a solution to increasing power reaper build, they crapped on it. So No, I don't see people wanting to solve the problem of low damage of a non support/tank/healer build because any buff they get that isn't meta is apparently a failure to them. Again, what is the problem wanting to be solved? From what I can tell, the problem is that power reaper isn't meta. That's a DIFFERENT problem than the one you are talking about.+10% situational damage is better than +10% situational damage reduction.Is a step in the right direction but clearly more steps are needed to go anywhere.

@Obtena.7952 said:Call me crazy, but I don't see Anet working that way; randomly throwing buffs here and there because there is nothing wrong ... just doesn't happen.They don't do it frequently but reworks happens. Like the Zeal/Radiance trait line for guardians.

It sure does, but that's not what I was disagreeing with. Rework happens for a reason, not just random "I want this". Again, what problem is this thread trying to solve? If I have to ask, you know Anet is wondering too.But "I want this" can help to get changes. See Vital Persistence.

[Obtena.7952]

@Vitali.5039 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Vitali.5039 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:So yes ... I am being helpful ... WHAT is this problem that you are attempting to solve?The low damage of a non support/tank/healer build

So why is that a buff to power reaper?Well, increasing DPS its a buff right?

@Obtena.7952 said:Is power reaper the best place to solve that low damage problem of a non support/tank/healer build?Maybe core trait lines are better but even the elite line isnt a bad place for a buff.

@Obtena.7952 said:What does a non support/tank/healer build even mean?Means that the purpose of the build is to not increase overall group fighting effectiveness/keep aggro/heal.

@Obtena.7952 said:Seems to me that's not the problem OTHER people are trying to solve ... damage was increased on power reaper 10% ... that's a solution to increasing power reaper build, they crapped on it. So No, I don't see people wanting to solve the problem of low damage of a non support/tank/healer build because any buff they get that isn't meta is apparently a failure to them. Again, what is the problem wanting to be solved? From what I can tell, the problem is that power reaper isn't meta. That's a DIFFERENT problem than the one you are talking about.+10% situational damage is better than +10% situational damage reduction.Is a step in the right direction but clearly more steps are needed to go anywhere.

@Obtena.7952 said:Call me crazy, but I don't see Anet working that way; randomly throwing buffs here and there because there is nothing wrong ... just doesn't happen.They don't do it frequently but reworks happens. Like the Zeal/Radiance trait line for guardians.

It sure does, but that's not what I was disagreeing with. Rework happens for a reason, not just random "I want this". Again, what problem is this thread trying to solve? If I have to ask, you know Anet is wondering too.But "I want this" can help to get changes. See Vital Persistence.

You miss my point. There isn't a coherent discussion that starts with even a proper suggestion, just a complaint ... If it takes 4 pages just to get someone to define what they are trying to do, why would Anet even look at this thread? Anet just comes in here looks around and walks away because the whole premise of the thread is to harass and spread toxic behaviors. Maybe you just want random changes ... but then again I know that's not desirable because of how aggressively people complained about a 10% buff. You're simply fooling yourself; On one hand, any buff is a good start but on the other, any buff is garbage and makes people complain.

Here is what people SHOULD be doing; make a sensible argument for why Necro having low DPS is a problem (that we have yet to see), then get the best ideas rolling for how to fix that. Coming immediately to the conclusion that power reaper MUST be meta because of low DPS is nonsense.

[Crinn.7864]

@Conncept.7638 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:

@Conncept.7638 said:Power reaper doesn't need buffs so much as the necromancer needs to gain shroud without having to constantly kill mobs, reaper or otherwise.

The idea behind the reaper was that your high point of damage would be inside reaper shroud, as opposed to that being your tank and attrition state, which really does work great in a lot of place. I cruise through the HoT maps on my power reaper easier and faster than with several characters I am much better with and whose builds are viable in far more places. But that only works because there are sufficient squishy mobs to keep me in reapershroud at all times. Go in to PvP, WvW, or any boss-based PvE content, and reaper is suddenly a high damage class without access to its high damage.

REAPER SHROUD IS NOT HIGH DAMAGE. IT IS A DPS LOSS TO CAMPING GREATSWORD AUTOATTACKS AND GRAVEDIGGER.

THIS IS WHY DPS METERS SHOULD BE MANDATORY FOR EVERYONE. So crap like this doesn't get spouted right and left.

And you've tested that how? You can't stay in reaper shroud long enough to calculate it's DPS under the raid conditions everyone else's DPS is tested under.

And checking the wiki, reapershrouds auto does 731+2.75(power) over 1.5 seconds while greatsword auto does 1452+3.6(power) over 2.5 seconds. Plug those into an even 1000 power, and that makes 5052 for the reapershroud per chain completion, and 3952 per completion of the greatsword auto. But wait! We're talking damage per

second

, not per chain completion, and a second of the greatsword auto is 66% of that total, while a second of the greatsword auto is only 40% of the total. Calculating that, 40% of the greatswords 5052 is only 2020 dps, while 66% of the reapershroud 3952 is 2608. Making that the greatsword auto a DPS loss of 22% over the reapershroud auto.

Or, in short, I'm not the one spouting off incorrect information, and you're the one parroting information you assume is correct without checking your facts.

You actually can make a build that can sit permanently in shroud, at least long enough to do a 100% shroud parse.

Guess what? Even with Reaper's Onslaught it does less DPS than GS, and that's even with Unholy Fervor abuse.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Vitali.5039 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Vitali.5039 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:So yes ... I am being helpful ... WHAT is this problem that you are attempting to solve?The low damage of a non support/tank/healer build

So why is that a buff to power reaper?Well, increasing DPS its a buff right?

@Obtena.7952 said:Is power reaper the best place to solve that low damage problem of a non support/tank/healer build?Maybe core trait lines are better but even the elite line isnt a bad place for a buff.

@Obtena.7952 said:What does a non support/tank/healer build even mean?Means that the purpose of the build is to not increase overall group fighting effectiveness/keep aggro/heal.

@Obtena.7952 said:Seems to me that's not the problem OTHER people are trying to solve ... damage was increased on power reaper 10% ... that's a solution to increasing power reaper build, they crapped on it. So No, I don't see people wanting to solve the problem of low damage of a non support/tank/healer build because any buff they get that isn't meta is apparently a failure to them. Again, what is the problem wanting to be solved? From what I can tell, the problem is that power reaper isn't meta. That's a DIFFERENT problem than the one you are talking about.+10% situational damage is better than +10% situational damage reduction.Is a step in the right direction but clearly more steps are needed to go anywhere.

@Obtena.7952 said:Call me crazy, but I don't see Anet working that way; randomly throwing buffs here and there because there is nothing wrong ... just doesn't happen.They don't do it frequently but reworks happens. Like the Zeal/Radiance trait line for guardians.

It sure does, but that's not what I was disagreeing with. Rework happens for a reason, not just random "I want this". Again, what problem is this thread trying to solve? If I have to ask, you know Anet is wondering too.But "I want this" can help to get changes. See Vital Persistence.

You miss my point. There isn't a coherent discussion that starts with even a proper suggestion, just a complaint ... If it takes 4 pages just to get someone to define what they are trying to do, why would Anet even look at this thread? Anet just comes in here looks around and walks away because the whole premise of the thread is to harass and spread toxic behaviors.

Really dude?

As per ArenaNet

@Robert Gee.9246 said:As a developer I don't expect players to be objective. We expect players to be passionate, involved and subjective when it comes to their chosen profession(s). So if you're upset about something, then by all means let us know you are upset. However as developers, it is our job to be objective when it comes to choosing what changes to make (and what bugs to fix). Although even if your criticism is subjective, it's still helpful to give us reasons and context behind your thoughts. ;)

[Obtena.7952]

@Crinn.7864 said:Really dude?

As per ArenaNet

@"Robert Gee.9246" said:As a developer I don't expect players to be objective. We expect players to be passionate, involved and subjective when it comes to their chosen profession(s). So if you're upset about something, then by all means let us know you are upset. However as developers,

it is

our job to be objective when it comes to choosing what changes to make (and what bugs to fix). Although even if your criticism is subjective, it's still helpful to give us reasons and context behind your thoughts. ;)

Really dude what? Do you think what Robert said is a license to spout off about how crap a 10% buff is to damage? I don't, especially when a 10% buff to DPS is actually a very reasonable buff to begin with!!! IN the spec apparently want it in, IN a power build, IN a trait they get for nothing!!! People must have lost their frikkin minds!!!

Seems to me that people have forgotten about "how to give good feedback". I will remind you that in the VERY same post Robert reminded people he won't stick around any thread that descends into poor behaviour ... which obviously means he expects very little from this community when it comes to respectable or reasonable interactions.

Listen up ... I get Necros have problems but no objective person is fooled into thinking that making power reaper meta is the best solution to low DPS necro class. Just like people are going to push that as what they want, i'm going to push that as a terrible idea to fix the necro DPS problem. maybe you do want to be stuck in reaper to get your DPS ... I think that would be a travesty. It's just as unreasonable and emotionally driven as the bleed on auto dagger debate. That was also a terrible idea and will remain so. Chuck meta power reaper in the bin with it.

[Subli.8217]

power rev is around 22.5-23.5k dps (herald 1k more)power reaper is around 28k (didn't test but we can just add 10% more dps to the pre-pof benchmark)

in my opinion any power build should have at least 31-32k dps in order to not be a handicap to the team.

[Castitalus.6359]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Vitali.5039 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:So yes ... I am being helpful ... WHAT is this problem that you are attempting to solve?The low damage of a non support/tank/healer build

So why is that a buff to power reaper? Is power reaper the best place to solve that low damage problem of a non support/tank/healer build? What does a non support/tank/healer build even mean? Seems to me that's not the problem OTHER people are trying to solve ... damage was increased on power reaper 10% ... that's a solution to increasing power reaper build, they crapped on it. So No, I don't see people wanting to solve the problem of low damage of a non support/tank/healer build because any buff they get that isn't meta is apparently a failure to them. Again, what is the problem wanting to be solved? From what I can tell, the problem is that power reaper isn't meta. That's a DIFFERENT problem than the one you are talking about.

@Obtena.7952 said:Call me crazy, but I don't see Anet working that way; randomly throwing buffs here and there because there is nothing wrong ... just doesn't happen.They don't do it frequently but reworks happens. Like the Zeal/Radiance trait line for guardians.

It sure does, but that's not what I was disagreeing with. Rework happens for a reason, not just random "I want this". Again, what problem is this thread trying to solve? If I have to ask, you know Anet is wondering too.

The problem we would like to solve that keeps going over your head is that power reaper does less damage when specced for pure damage than a support build can dish out. How's that for a problem that needs addressing? Sure, the 10% buff is there... if you completely rework your runes and sigils for it. And if you're going to be focusing so much on chill, might as well take deathly chill. But it does little damage for a power reaper, so might as well get some condi gear to boost that up and oh look, you are a condi reaper now. Given your replies, I take it you'll still not see any issue with this.

[Zoltreez.6435]

Yep still waiting those Power reaper Changes that was talked about like almost half a year ago lol

Oh btw ...... Scourge ALSO need Buffs now..............

[Arzurag.7506]

Anet should rather fix the community and its behavior by buffing it.Selfsame nerfed itself to the ground over the years and now it needs buffs or a complete rework.I actually tend to the latter.

[Vitali.5039]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Vitali.5039 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Vitali.5039 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:So yes ... I am being helpful ... WHAT is this problem that you are attempting to solve?The low damage of a non support/tank/healer build

So why is that a buff to power reaper?Well, increasing DPS its a buff right?

@Obtena.7952 said:Is power reaper the best place to solve that low damage problem of a non support/tank/healer build?Maybe core trait lines are better but even the elite line isnt a bad place for a buff.

@Obtena.7952 said:What does a non support/tank/healer build even mean?Means that the purpose of the build is to not increase overall group fighting effectiveness/keep aggro/heal.

@Obtena.7952 said:Seems to me that's not the problem OTHER people are trying to solve ... damage was increased on power reaper 10% ... that's a solution to increasing power reaper build, they crapped on it. So No, I don't see people wanting to solve the problem of low damage of a non support/tank/healer build because any buff they get that isn't meta is apparently a failure to them. Again, what is the problem wanting to be solved? From what I can tell, the problem is that power reaper isn't meta. That's a DIFFERENT problem than the one you are talking about.+10% situational damage is better than +10% situational damage reduction.Is a step in the right direction but clearly more steps are needed to go anywhere.

@Obtena.7952 said:Call me crazy, but I don't see Anet working that way; randomly throwing buffs here and there because there is nothing wrong ... just doesn't happen.They don't do it frequently but reworks happens. Like the Zeal/Radiance trait line for guardians.

It sure does, but that's not what I was disagreeing with. Rework happens for a reason, not just random "I want this". Again, what problem is this thread trying to solve? If I have to ask, you know Anet is wondering too.But "I want this" can help to get changes. See Vital Persistence.

You miss my point. There isn't a coherent discussion that starts with even a proper suggestion, just a complaint ... If it takes 4 pages just to get someone to define what they are trying to do, why would Anet even look at this thread? Anet just comes in here looks around and walks away because the whole premise of the thread is to harass and spread toxic behaviors. Maybe you just want random changes ... but then again I know that's not desirable because of how aggressively people complained about a 10% buff. You're simply fooling yourself; On one hand, any buff is a good start but on the other, any buff is garbage and makes people complain.

Here is what people SHOULD be doing; make a sensible argument for why Necro having low DPS is a problem (that we have yet to see), then get the best ideas rolling for how to fix that. Coming immediately to the conclusion that power reaper MUST be meta because of low DPS is nonsense.

ANET's members read posts to see what their gamers are thinking. Could them be interesting, could them only be sweet fantasy or (sadly) toxic.Things could be written better than this, more argumented and the message could pass.

Peoples "aggressively complained" about the +10% dmg on chilled target cause other professions improvements are more effective than the Necromancer's ones and they even get empowered more often.

[Vlad Morbius.1759]

@Obtena.7952 said:Here is what people SHOULD be doing; make a sensible argument for why Necro having low DPS is a problem (that we have yet to see), then get the best ideas rolling for how to fix that. Coming immediately to the conclusion that power reaper MUST be meta because of low DPS is nonsense.

I'm sorry but are you seriously trying to say that Necromancers who have been posting on these boards for 5 years have not made seriously detailed constructive posts regarding what is wrong with the class when it comes to DPS and what needs to be fixed? I have to say it truly is starting feel like you are trolling people on this board just to solicit negative responses to concerns and push these threads into the trash bin. Dozens of very well thought out arguments have been written clearly defining the core issues which began with base Necro through to the current elites. You can either choose to do your own research regarding these but I don't think it's fair to state that well thought out posts have not yet happened, that frankly is just baiting people and it should not be tolerated on these forums.

[Zoltreez.6435]

@Vlad Morbius.1759 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Here is what people SHOULD be doing; make a sensible argument for why Necro having low DPS is a problem (that we have yet to see), then get the best ideas rolling for how to fix that. Coming immediately to the conclusion that power reaper MUST be meta because of low DPS is nonsense.

I'm sorry but are you seriously trying to say that Necromancers who have been posting on these boards for 5 years have not made seriously detailed constructive posts regarding what is wrong with the class when it comes to DPS and what needs to be fixed?

Yes we did... multiple realy well writen ones that was universaly Agreed/Upvoted by most players.....

ALL got ingnored.......

If devs would care even a litle about necro players Opinions/Ideas we would have Multiple working and wanted Specs for Necromancers by now.....

[Obtena.7952]

@Castitalus.6359 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Vitali.5039 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:So yes ... I am being helpful ... WHAT is this problem that you are attempting to solve?The low damage of a non support/tank/healer build

So why is that a buff to power reaper? Is power reaper the best place to solve that low damage problem of a non support/tank/healer build? What does a non support/tank/healer build even mean? Seems to me that's not the problem OTHER people are trying to solve ... damage was increased on power reaper 10% ... that's a solution to increasing power reaper build, they crapped on it. So No, I don't see people wanting to solve the problem of low damage of a non support/tank/healer build because any buff they get that isn't meta is apparently a failure to them. Again, what is the problem wanting to be solved? From what I can tell, the problem is that power reaper isn't meta. That's a DIFFERENT problem than the one you are talking about.

@Obtena.7952 said:Call me crazy, but I don't see Anet working that way; randomly throwing buffs here and there because there is nothing wrong ... just doesn't happen.They don't do it frequently but reworks happens. Like the Zeal/Radiance trait line for guardians.

It sure does, but that's not what I was disagreeing with. Rework happens for a reason, not just random "I want this". Again, what problem is this thread trying to solve? If I have to ask, you know Anet is wondering too.

The problem we would like to solve that keeps going over your head is that power reaper does less damage when specced for pure damage than a support build can dish out. How's that for a problem that needs addressing? Sure, the 10% buff is there... if you completely rework your runes and sigils for it. And if you're going to be focusing so much on chill, might as well take deathly chill. But it does little damage for a power reaper, so might as well get some condi gear to boost that up and oh look, you are a condi reaper now. Given your replies, I take it you'll still not see any issue with this.

You're right, I don't see an issue with this because the reality is that Anet doesn't balance things according to some label like 'support build' or whatever you want to call it. The fact is, from what I can see how this game works, Anet really doesn't care if a particular spec does a specific amount of damage, nor should they because doing so gets them into chasing their tails trying to maintain some nonsensible notion of a DPS rank between builds that would be very expensive for them to maintain ...

So any argument that appeals to some sense of "DPS Should Be" think has no meaning in this setting. The BEST you can hope for is to have at least ONE build that will give you raid relevance ... and the idea that you can petition Anet to make that build a particular one at a specific DPS level doesn't work.