I know everyone forgot about reaper with Scourge, but power reaper still needs buffs.

[Obtena.7952]

@Vlad Morbius.1759 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Here is what people SHOULD be doing; make a sensible argument for why Necro having low DPS is a problem (that we have yet to see), then get the best ideas rolling for how to fix that. Coming immediately to the conclusion that power reaper MUST be meta because of low DPS is nonsense.

I'm sorry but are you seriously trying to say that Necromancers who have been posting on these boards for 5 years have not made seriously detailed constructive posts regarding what is wrong with the class when it comes to DPS and what needs to be fixed? I have to say it truly is starting feel like you are trolling people on this board just to solicit negative responses to concerns and push these threads into the trash bin. Dozens of very well thought out arguments have been written clearly defining the core issues which began with base Necro through to the current elites. You can either choose to do your own research regarding these but I don't think it's fair to state that well thought out posts have not yet happened, that frankly is just baiting people and it should not be tolerated on these forums.

.... and all of those dozens of good arguments are drowned out by the hundreds of QQ ones, including this thread. The fact is that getting a 10% is a GOOD first step to getting what is desired ... but we got some very narrowminded people who think it's garbage because they have an unrealistic vision of Anet dropping a 40% DPS increase bomb on them in ONE patch ...

And just so you know, I'm "trolling" (big rolleyes here) because I think the idea to make power reaper THE meta build is a terrible one.

[Meetshield.1756]

Reaper is a condi class, Scourge is a power class, and the Dev's sit back and laugh at you for these posts.

[Vlad Morbius.1759]

@Obtena.7952 said:And just so you know, I'm "trolling" (big rolleyes here) because I think the idea to make power reaper THE meta build is a terrible one.

Well I'm not sure who you are referring to when you say that people are calling for power reaper to be meta but it certainly isn't the bulk of the posters so that's a fairly weak stance to take. Even if it was the actual case but we all know the bulk of the Necromancer community is not calling for that, what does it truly matter, someone has to be meta. As for how Anet balances, please try to remember you have no idea what their motivation is when it comes to balancing, your opinions are just that your opinions, so please stop claiming to know more about their balancing process than anyone else it's absurd.

[Castitalus.6359]

@Obtena.7952 said:

You're right, I don't see an issue with this because the reality is that Anet doesn't balance things according to some label like 'support build' or whatever you want to call it. The fact is, from what I can see how this game works, Anet really doesn't care if a particular spec does a specific amount of damage,

@"Karl McLain.5604" said:Keep in mind that the specialization probably won't hit previous DPS potential (as it has heavy support built in), but we do intend for it to go up from where it's currently at.

I'm glad you said that. Here's a dev post saying that they -do- in fact balance around support. Perhaps maybe if you got rid of your bias against power builds and stop toting a condi buff as a power one, you could provide a more coherent argument against why power reaper shouldn't be doing viable dps other than "I don't want it to."

[Obtena.7952]

@Castitalus.6359 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

You're right, I don't see an issue with this because the reality is that Anet doesn't balance things according to some label like 'support build' or whatever you want to call it. The fact is, from what I can see how this game works, Anet really doesn't care if a particular spec does a specific amount of damage,

@"Karl McLain.5604" said:Keep in mind that the specialization probably won't hit previous DPS potential (as it has heavy support built in), but we do intend for it to go

up

from where it's currently at.

I'm glad you said that. Here's a dev post saying that they -do- in fact balance around support. Perhaps maybe if you got rid of your bias against power builds and stop toting a condi buff as a power one, you could provide a more coherent argument against why power reaper shouldn't be doing viable dps other than "I don't want it to."

I think you misunderstood. The label is not important is what I'm saying ... and when they said they do balance around support, what exactly did that mean? It's a pretty vague statement if you ask me. I mean, I can claim Anet balances around whatever and it would be hard to dispute because it's such a meaningless thing to say. It simply doesn't tell me what to expect as a player. Does balancing around support mean I should expect something to be more or less DPS? More or less applicable to raids? What? Sorry, that doesn't help me.

I've already explained why I think it would be bad to make reaper the power DPS meta build ... and it has little to do with 'because I don't want it to".

[Obtena.7952]

@Vlad Morbius.1759 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:And just so you know, I'm "trolling" (big rolleyes here) because I think the idea to make power reaper THE meta build is a terrible one.

Well I'm not sure who you are referring to when you say that people are calling for power reaper to be meta but it certainly isn't the bulk of the posters so that's a fairly weak stance to take. Even if it was the actual case but we all know the bulk of the Necromancer community is not calling for that, what does it truly matter, someone has to be meta. As for how Anet balances, please try to remember you have no idea what their motivation is when it comes to balancing, your opinions are just that your opinions, so please stop claiming to know more about their balancing process than anyone else it's absurd.

Again, you don't seem to acknowledge that this thread was made when Scourge WAS the power meta build, so when you claim that SOMEONE has to be meta ... well, Necro's HAD it. This thread was made because some emotionally driven people didn't just want some meta build, they wanted a SPECIFIC meta build.

I actually have a pretty good idea of the motivation behind Anet's balancing for two reasons: 1) I pay attention to what happens to the game historically and 2) they frequently tell us what it is. I don't need to guess and even it it's my opinion, it's a hell of a lot more informed than anyone that thinks Anet will drop a DPS bomb on a specific Espec because of meta.

[Castitalus.6359]

@Obtena.7952 said:I think you misunderstood. The label is not important is what I'm saying ... and when they said they do balance around support, what exactly did that mean? It's a pretty vague statement if you ask me. I mean, I can claim Anet balances around whatever and it would be hard to dispute because it's such a meaningless thing to say. It simply doesn't tell me what to expect as a player. Does balancing around support mean I should expect something to be more or less DPS? More or less applicable to raids? What? Sorry, that doesn't help me.

I've already explained why I think it would be bad to make reaper the power DPS meta build ... and it has little to do with 'because I don't want it to".

No, I understand completely. When they said they balance around support, it means they are trying to find a balance between the amount of damage a spec can dish out versus the amount of party support it can provide (I say this as someone who pays attention to what the devs are doing). And to be frank, you have claimed to know what anet balances around multiple times in this very thread, so are those statements now rendered meaningless? So far, I haven't seen a single reason from you about why power reaper shouldn't be buffed other than "I don't want it to" and that will continue to hold true. Tell me, what is supposed to be our dps spec? Scourge, the "Heavy Support" as labled by the dev team? Core Necro maybe? Clearly it's not supposed to be reaper with all that mighty party support it brings to the table.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

@Castitalus.6359 said:

No, I understand completely. When they said they balance around support, it means they are trying to find a balance between the amount of damage a spec can dish out versus the amount of party support it can provide (I say this as someone who pays attention to what the devs are doing). And to be frank, you have claimed to know what anet balances around multiple times in this very thread, so are those statements now rendered meaningless? So far, I haven't seen a single reason from you about why power reaper shouldn't be buffed other than "I don't want it to" and that will continue to hold true. Tell me, what is supposed to be our dps spec? Scourge, the "Heavy Support" as labled by the dev team? Core Necro maybe? Clearly it's not supposed to be reaper with all that mighty party support it brings to the table.

Obtena never has a reason other than "I don't want it to" for being against Necro buffs of any type. Just stop feeding the troll.

[Obtena.7952]

@Castitalus.6359 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I think you misunderstood. The label is not important is what I'm saying ... and when they said they do balance around support, what exactly did that mean? It's a pretty vague statement if you ask me. I mean, I can claim Anet balances around whatever and it would be hard to dispute because it's such a meaningless thing to say. It simply doesn't tell me what to expect as a player. Does balancing around support mean I should expect something to be more or less DPS? More or less applicable to raids? What? Sorry, that doesn't help me.

I've already explained why I think it would be bad to make reaper the power DPS meta build ... and it has little to do with 'because I don't want it to".

No, I understand completely. When they said they balance around support, it means they are trying to find a balance between the amount of damage a spec can dish out versus the amount of party support it can provide (I say this as someone who pays attention to what the devs are doing). And to be frank, you have claimed to know what anet balances around multiple times in this very thread, so are those statements now rendered meaningless? So far, I haven't seen a single reason from you about why power reaper shouldn't be buffed other than "I don't want it to" and that will continue to hold true. Tell me, what is supposed to be our dps spec? Scourge, the "Heavy Support" as labled by the dev team? Core Necro maybe? Clearly it's not supposed to be reaper with all that mighty party support it brings to the table.

That still doesn't tell me what I should expect in terms of DPS for various builds, whatever label they are given. Balancing around support tells me absolutely nothing about what I should expect for damage buffs on any build. Maybe you have convinced yourself of what those builds are and how much DPS it should be, but I don't see Anet providing that information. "around support" is simply a vague notion that support affects whatever DPS Anet deems fit to give the class; for all you know, Anet can use that reason to remove DPS if they think Necro as a concept is a more supportive than DPS class ... but I'm sure that hasn't occured to you at all because you have so much 'understanding'. Here is a soul searching question ... are YOU confident that balancing "around support" is a good answer for you to place your bets to? I sure as hell don't.

You haven't seen a single reason because to be frank, you haven't looked and couldn't care less whether I have a reason, good or not. You're just looking for an argument.

What I think the DPS spec should be ... I think whatever DPS buffs we get, I would prefer them to be located in core necro traits so they are more broadly applicable to the whole class and it's especs. I think it's not the answer though ... simply adding 30% DPS here and there doesn't fix what ails this class. even if Necro DID have a DPS spec that compared to other classes, that's not really enough to be relevant is it?

[Zenith.7301]

3 pages later after I asked people to stop making it the Obtena Show, and these people are still feeding it.

[Obtena.7952]

@Zenith.7301 said:3 pages later after I asked people to stop making it the Obtena Show, and these people are still feeding it.

I don't see a problem ... there's a civil discussion going on with people voicing their ideas and thoughts. Perhaps if it's not going the way you want and you just wanted everyone to high five you but you do have the option to contribute to your thread. Honestly, I'm not even sure people even read your suggestion ... they just saw something about buffing power reaper and lost their minds. Anet is going to need to allow necros to apply 30+ stacks of vuln that only applies to them to satisfy the DPS ranking ideas for necros that people are floating around in this thread.

[Axl.8924]

Obtenna was refering to me because i was concerned necro didn't have any builds and i think of meta and qtfy as important for raids and fractals alike.It would make sense to have at least one strong dps build 1 strong support build, and not having any is not a good sign.> @Obtena.7952 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:3 pages later after I asked people to stop making it the Obtena Show, and these people are still feeding it.

I don't see a problem ... there's a civil discussion going on with people voicing their ideas and thoughts. Perhaps if it's not going the way you want and you just wanted everyone to high five you but you do have the option to contribute to your thread. Honestly, I'm not even sure people even read your suggestion ... they just saw something about buffing power reaper and lost their minds. Anet is going to need to allow necros to apply 30+ stacks of vuln that only applies to them to satisfy the DPS ranking ideas for necros that people are floating around in this thread.

So then where do you see necros should be? Bottom of all charts? lowest dps survivability with scourge and support?

Also what class do you play? you aren't one of those power reaper haters are you?

[Aetatis.5418]

despite the "brawl" going on here. i love the idea of some "necro only" vuln stacks , that stack above 25(28? 30?). in raids it doesnt force you to take more than one and supports build diversity. in pvp its imo okay-ish (although it might be already strong - and doesnt help the survivability which is still one of the lowest because of multiple times explained reasons). only headache i have is wvw tho, if the class is getting stacked even more, than it already is - but it can be disabled in wvw or toned down to 1 additional stack only if necessary... something like that

[dceptaconroy.7928]

I'd like to thank Obtena for keeping the power reaper thread hovering at the top. If he were uncaring to our plight he'd fade off, he isnt. But yeah, i think at this point it would be interesting to know your main class Obtena, if you have one and what your suggestions for core necro buffs should be.

[Obtena.7952]

@Axl.8924 said:Obtenna was refering to me because i was concerned necro didn't have any builds and i think of meta and qtfy as important for raids and fractals alike.It would make sense to have at least one strong dps build 1 strong support build, and not having any is not a good sign.> @Obtena.7952 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:3 pages later after I asked people to stop making it the Obtena Show, and these people are still feeding it.

I don't see a problem ... there's a civil discussion going on with people voicing their ideas and thoughts. Perhaps if it's not going the way you want and you just wanted everyone to high five you but you do have the option to contribute to your thread. Honestly, I'm not even sure people even read your suggestion ... they just saw something about buffing power reaper and lost their minds. Anet is going to need to allow necros to apply 30+ stacks of vuln that only applies to them to satisfy the DPS ranking ideas for necros that people are floating around in this thread.

So then where do you see necros should be? Bottom of all charts? lowest dps survivability with scourge and support?

Also what class do you play? you aren't one of those power reaper haters are you?

Apparently 'balancing around' support probably indicates Necros aren't ever going to be very high on the DPS hierarchy. Frankly, I don't even think that's a relevant question, since Anet doesn't balance to maintain some hierarchy of DPS among the classes in the first place. While I don't think the current situation is acceptable, I don't see Anet dropping a 30% DPS increase bomb on the class either ... If they did, I wouldn't want that done in power reaper either.

What I DO think should happen is that Anet needs to rethink the tragedy that Shroud is as a class concept because throwing DPS at a conceptually flawed class is not a solution in the first place. I play all classes BTW.

[Slayer.7318]

Core necromancer weapons need to fill roles a bit better than they do . Daggers should be built on a more tanky hp drain blood magic with more health drain and such , offhand dagger having slot 5 being a block which maybe poisons attackers or 2nd use caused a poison aoe or something , axe skills would be better with being able to hit 2 targets like rangers axe (pretty sure it only hits 1 and necro has enough single target with Scepter so a more aoe sort of one hand would be quite nice ) focus skill 4 should work more with the stealing buffs and passing them to allied for a bit more support and keeping with focus being a boon remover type of weapon . Staff and Scepter seem fine as they are with staff excelling as a wvwv jeep enemy off wall or enemy tag weapon and Scepter is good with the trait for condition duration and works well with scourge . As for reaper I feel the big issue with it is the speed . A little tweak in speed mostly for the auto attack (even if they stick it in the trait for greatsword ) and fixing skill 5 in certain terrain types . As for scourge I feel maybe a fire field on torch skill 5 would help with the support as well it’s a torch and fire is Always wanted since I can see scourge being the most likely weapon for a necro to run raid on .

[Castitalus.6359]

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Castitalus.6359 said:

No, I understand completely. When they said they balance around support, it means they are trying to find a balance between the amount of damage a spec can dish out versus the amount of party support it can provide (I say this as someone who pays attention to what the devs are doing). And to be frank, you have claimed to know what anet balances around multiple times in this very thread, so are those statements now rendered meaningless? So far, I haven't seen a single reason from you about why power reaper shouldn't be buffed other than "I don't want it to" and that will continue to hold true. Tell me, what is supposed to be our dps spec? Scourge, the "Heavy Support" as labled by the dev team? Core Necro maybe? Clearly it's not supposed to be reaper with all that mighty party support it brings to the table.

Obtena never has a reason other than "I don't want it to" for being against Necro buffs of any type. Just stop feeding the troll.

True enough, at this point it's just talking past him. I do agree that Death/Reaper shroud needs to be reworked to not be a second health bar, but I -highly- doubt the dev team is willing to put in that much work for one class so dps buffs are the best we can hope for.

[Vitali.5039]

@Castitalus.6359 said:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Castitalus.6359 said:

No, I understand completely. When they said they balance around support, it means they are trying to find a balance between the amount of damage a spec can dish out versus the amount of party support it can provide (I say this as someone who pays attention to what the devs are doing). And to be frank, you have claimed to know what anet balances around multiple times in this very thread, so are those statements now rendered meaningless? So far, I haven't seen a single reason from you about why power reaper shouldn't be buffed other than "I don't want it to" and that will continue to hold true. Tell me, what is supposed to be our dps spec? Scourge, the "Heavy Support" as labled by the dev team? Core Necro maybe? Clearly it's not supposed to be reaper with all that mighty party support it brings to the table.

Obtena never has a reason other than "I don't want it to" for being against Necro buffs of any type. Just stop feeding the troll.

True enough, at this point it's just talking past him. I do agree that Death/Reaper shroud needs to be reworked to not be a second health bar, but I -highly- doubt the dev team is willing to put in that much work for one class so dps buffs are the best we can hope for.

@Castitalus.6359 said:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Castitalus.6359 said:

No, I understand completely. When they said they balance around support, it means they are trying to find a balance between the amount of damage a spec can dish out versus the amount of party support it can provide (I say this as someone who pays attention to what the devs are doing). And to be frank, you have claimed to know what anet balances around multiple times in this very thread, so are those statements now rendered meaningless? So far, I haven't seen a single reason from you about why power reaper shouldn't be buffed other than "I don't want it to" and that will continue to hold true. Tell me, what is supposed to be our dps spec? Scourge, the "Heavy Support" as labled by the dev team? Core Necro maybe? Clearly it's not supposed to be reaper with all that mighty party support it brings to the table.

Obtena never has a reason other than "I don't want it to" for being against Necro buffs of any type. Just stop feeding the troll.

True enough, at this point it's just talking past him. I do agree that Death/Reaper shroud needs to be reworked to not be a second health bar, but I -highly- doubt the dev team is willing to put in that much work for one class so dps buffs are the best we can hope for.

This could be a very good idea.

If Shroud could work as a Revenant's legend with Upkeep cost (life force degen) and makes you keep your Weapons while gaining Shroud's Skills as Utility it could be perfect. Maybe this could give to Death's Charge some evade frame or block (while travelling for example) and to infusing terror some damage immunity.Life Blast and Life Rend removed and replaced with the current heal skill selected.Utility and Elite wich don't share CD and f1 traits that work on AA.

To balance this the Necromancer/Reaper could generate life force from weapons and the new utility skills could have a LF cost, while on enter/on exit traits could proc on enter/on exit and pulse every 10 seconds while in Shroud and the Foot in The Grave's Stunbreak only on enter/on exit and Shroud's 3 (turned to Shroud's 8) activation.

It could be even a PvE damage increase via "on heal/elite skill" runes.

[Crinn.7864]

@Castitalus.6359 said:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Castitalus.6359 said:

No, I understand completely. When they said they balance around support, it means they are trying to find a balance between the amount of damage a spec can dish out versus the amount of party support it can provide (I say this as someone who pays attention to what the devs are doing). And to be frank, you have claimed to know what anet balances around multiple times in this very thread, so are those statements now rendered meaningless? So far, I haven't seen a single reason from you about why power reaper shouldn't be buffed other than "I don't want it to" and that will continue to hold true. Tell me, what is supposed to be our dps spec? Scourge, the "Heavy Support" as labled by the dev team? Core Necro maybe? Clearly it's not supposed to be reaper with all that mighty party support it brings to the table.

Obtena never has a reason other than "I don't want it to" for being against Necro buffs of any type. Just stop feeding the troll.

True enough, at this point it's just talking past him. I do agree that Death/Reaper shroud needs to be reworked to not be a second health bar, but I -highly- doubt the dev team is willing to put in that much work for one class so dps buffs are the best we can hope for.

No shroud is perfectly fine as a health bar. This myth that second bar = bad is how we ended up with the joke that is scourge.

[Kalocin.5982]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Castitalus.6359 said:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Castitalus.6359 said:

No, I understand completely. When they said they balance around support, it means they are trying to find a balance between the amount of damage a spec can dish out versus the amount of party support it can provide (I say this as someone who pays attention to what the devs are doing). And to be frank, you have claimed to know what anet balances around multiple times in this very thread, so are those statements now rendered meaningless? So far, I haven't seen a single reason from you about why power reaper shouldn't be buffed other than "I don't want it to" and that will continue to hold true. Tell me, what is supposed to be our dps spec? Scourge, the "Heavy Support" as labled by the dev team? Core Necro maybe? Clearly it's not supposed to be reaper with all that mighty party support it brings to the table.

Obtena never has a reason other than "I don't want it to" for being against Necro buffs of any type. Just stop feeding the troll.

True enough, at this point it's just talking past him. I do agree that Death/Reaper shroud needs to be reworked to not be a second health bar, but I -highly- doubt the dev team is willing to put in that much work for one class so dps buffs are the best we can hope for.

No shroud is perfectly fine as a health bar. This myth that second bar = bad is how we ended up with the joke that is scourge.

I think the diddly heals help a lot as a balancing method and having life force generation as its own sort of "healing". That being said, there should be a trait that lets you "spend" life force for more dps as it wouldn't affect the class as a whole but it'd help for raids.