Normalise WvW to what it really is - World PvP

[Baine.9650]

I think I speak for many groupless/guildless players when it's become clear that there are obvious consumable optimisations for WvW that turn any player into a elite-class monster. The past 14 days of my return to GW2 WvW was marred once again by organized groups with more or less raid-level optimisations. To be clear, I play and Elementalist, have full Berserker exotics and a set of scholar runes and damage sigils, so that means my damage should be expected to be slightly above the average player. I eat every consumable accessible to a casual player which can be purchased through the Black Lion Trading Post.

I have 2 suggestions: Either make these optimisations part of WvW gameplay, meaning every player will eventually be on equal footing when they play WvW (barring Borderlands bloodlust, which is an objective) or entirely remove them from the equation. I'm okay with people having 25 stacks of might one-shotting light armor classes if you do not dodge. I'm okay when an entire group has every single boon on them imaginable struts around invincible in a WvW setting and I have no boon-stripping counterplay like Raid bosses have. What I'm entirely floored by, and constantly wonder how ANet could have thought this was fine, is that I can't even deal 5% of their health in damage even though I got 4 spells off without dying first, because of the amount of buffs and consumables they have. Ascended food isn't accessible to everyone at all times, either, but is of course no issues to these raiders.

If you're doing to make these optimisations part and parcel of WvW gameplay, start giving these consumables (account-bound version) to players through the WvW reward track. This is a knowledge gap the average player is never going to bother breaching. Hell, I spent a good part of my PLAYING TIME researching damage optimizations to solve my 600-damage meteor showers on these raid groups.

WvW is, in it's current form, very accessible to players at first glance, but the moment they run into the brick walls of wannabe raid guilds having their time in the WvW sun you can be 100% sure that they're going to drop off the game. It's just not fun or fair when it's a organization/teamplay gap when it seems that WvW is drop in/drop out anytime gameplay. ANY casual raid guild can just hop into WvW and start farming people, that's how it is right now.

If any fully booned raid team walks through a bunch of fields unscathed just because of their gear and consumables against an equal size group AND CAN START FARMING PEOPLE for lootbags (Guilds especially love to do this), you'll find that soon WvW is going to be abandoned again after all the effort you've spent in user acquisition.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Join a squad? Join a Guild? Craft some consumables? Craft some ascended gear, or pick some up from any of the many easily-accessible content?

[Etria.3642]

These groups don't rely on consumables, though they help. They micromanage each class. The squad is not one huge party but carefully and precisely divided into groups of 5, or sometimes 10, to maximize boon sharing, condi cleanse, and healing, among other buffs and tactics, including stealth. They practice, in moving together, following directions, and functioning as a unit. They use commands and voice and certain specific builds. They are MEANT to tackle another group as large or larger than they are. Should a hapless player without a group happen to encounter them, it should be no surprise that that player will lose.

Your class is, in fact, one of those desired by said group, but they only want 1 or 2. Those 1 or 1 are typically placed in a group with a full minstrel firebrand, and a heal scrapper, so that protection, aegis, boons, healing, and might are all carefully spoonfed. They expect in return that the elementalist tops the charts in dps--if you think wvw groups of this caliber do not use arcdps just like pve raiders you would be mistaken.

However, should you be solo, and encounter one of them running back to meet up with their zerg, because their builds and skills are so precisely picked to complement the group, it often leaves them open to being killed that way.

That said, if you plan on running solo, check out some of the recommended builds. I have seen determined tempests manage to be thorns in the sides of many groups.

If you do like wvw though, I heartily recommend joining a guild, checking out their builds, joining their Discord, and entering in the fun that way. And while it is work to get yourself setup, it IS fun.

[AliamRationem.5172]

I'm a little confused by this. What consumables are we talking about and what do you mean by "raid level optimizations"?

It seems like you're under the impression that these organized WvW guild raids are winning because they are using raid gear? If so, let me assure you that is not the case. The stat advantage of ascended/legendary (the best gear you can get) over your exotic set is 5%. That's it. They are winning because they use the right builds, the right group composition, they are organized and led by voice com.

If you come up against such groups in a group of random pickups, even if your group is significantly larger you will lose badly. Again, it has nothing to do with any sort of gear advantage. They are simply outplaying you like a legendary tier PvP player would beat a silver tier player in a duel. You never had a chance no matter what gear you had on.

[Dawdler.8521]

Hahahahohoho...

You want to know how WvWers know that they're fighting a PvE raider? They bring their zerker raid build over to WvW and think its going to work.

It dont.

We can kill your 30k dps ele with a 3k dps WvW build.

Consumables have literally nothing to do with it.

[Infusion.7149]

If it's an organized guild they will have protection up (-33% damage), stability, barrier, aegis, and cleanses / heals / resistance. If there's a jalis rev that's another 50% damage reduction and Tome of Courage's Unbroken lines applies 200 toughness in WvW. Most full support classes are 3000+ toughness if they need to stay in melee range. DPS classes not running life steal cilantro food have -10% incoming damage food (peppercorn).

If you're fighting in an enemy keep there's an additional 200 toughness if presence of the keep bonus is active.

You cannot treat WvW as a PvE raid. You shouldn't be running full berserker gear, especially not on an elementalist.

The only consumable I can think of that is broken is the potion of karka toughness which stacks on top of food for +150 toughness.

[Sovereign.1093]

@Baine.9650 said:I think I speak for many groupless/guildless players when it's become clear that there are obvious consumable optimisations for WvW that turn any player into a elite-class monster. The past 14 days of my return to GW2 WvW was marred once again by organized groups with more or less raid-level optimisations. To be clear, I play and Elementalist, have full Berserker exotics and a set of scholar runes and damage sigils, so that means my damage should be expected to be slightly above the average player. I eat every consumable accessible to a casual player which can be purchased through the Black Lion Trading Post.

I have 2 suggestions: Either make these optimisations part of WvW gameplay, meaning every player will eventually be on equal footing when they play WvW (barring Borderlands bloodlust, which is an objective) or entirely remove them from the equation. I'm okay with people having 25 stacks of might one-shotting light armor classes if you do not dodge. I'm okay when an entire group has every single boon on them imaginable struts around invincible in a WvW setting and I have no boon-stripping counterplay like Raid bosses have. What I'm entirely floored by, and constantly wonder how ANet could have thought this was fine, is that I can't even deal 5% of their health in damage even though I got 4 spells off without dying first, because of the amount of buffs and consumables they have. Ascended food isn't accessible to everyone at all times, either, but is of course no issues to these raiders.

If you're doing to make these optimisations part and parcel of WvW gameplay, start giving these consumables (account-bound version) to players through the WvW reward track. This is a knowledge gap the average player is never going to bother breaching. Hell, I spent a good part of my PLAYING TIME researching damage optimizations to solve my 600-damage meteor showers on these raid groups.

WvW is, in it's current form, very accessible to players at first glance, but the moment they run into the brick walls of wannabe raid guilds having their time in the WvW sun you can be 100% sure that they're going to drop off the game. It's just not fun or fair when it's a organization/teamplay gap when it seems that WvW is drop in/drop out anytime gameplay. ANY casual raid guild can just hop into WvW and start farming people, that's how it is right now.

If any fully booned raid team walks through a bunch of fields unscathed just because of their gear and consumables against an equal size group AND CAN START FARMING PEOPLE for lootbags (Guilds especially love to do this), you'll find that soon WvW is going to be abandoned again after all the effort you've spent in user acquisition.

Hi fam, it may seem some groups walk on damage but they actually dodge. Some even are smart enough to coordinate a scourge portal push.

Also being at the side of the bomb limits that chance of you getting hit.

But pure damage ele even if exotic is good. Maybe the food heal on kills is a good choice for you or vampiric rune.

[Baine.9650]

@Infusion.7149 said:If it's an organized guild they will have protection up (-33% damage), stability, aegis, and cleanses / heals / resistance. If there's a jalis rev that's another 50% damage reduction and Tome of Courage's Unbroken lines applies 200 toughness in WvW. Most full support classes are 3000+ toughness if they need to stay in melee range. DPS classes not running life steal cilantro food have -10% incoming damage food (peppercorn).

If you're fighting in an enemy keep there's an additional 200 toughness if presence of the keep bonus is active.

You cannot treat WvW as a PvE raid. You shouldn't be running full berserker gear, especially not on an elementalist.

The only consumable I can think of that is broken is the potion of karka toughness which stacks on top of food for +150 toughness.

Thank for explaining, this is probably what's happening. If what you say is true then there should be clearer indicators when targets are nigh unkillable so that weaker players understand they are outmatched and that they should run.

[enkidu.5937]

@Baine.9650 said:I eat every consumable accessible to a casual playerSo, your fat Ele is too slow to run away :p In fact, WvW roaming turned into a chase-and-escape-gank-fest, very unfriendly for beginners and returners, agreed.

[Voltekka.2375]

That post pretty much sums up > @Baine.9650 said:

@Infusion.7149 said:If it's an organized guild they will have protection up (-33% damage), stability, aegis, and cleanses / heals / resistance. If there's a jalis rev that's another 50% damage reduction and Tome of Courage's Unbroken lines applies 200 toughness in WvW. Most full support classes are 3000+ toughness if they need to stay in melee range. DPS classes not running life steal cilantro food have -10% incoming damage food (peppercorn).

If you're fighting in an enemy keep there's an additional 200 toughness if presence of the keep bonus is active.

You cannot treat WvW as a PvE raid. You shouldn't be running full berserker gear, especially not on an elementalist.

The only consumable I can think of that is broken is the potion of karka toughness which stacks on top of food for +150 toughness.

Thank for explaining, this is probably what's happening. If what you say is true then there should be clearer indicators when targets are nigh unkillable so that weaker players understand they are outmatched and that they should run.

This is a pvp mode, not a scripted Ai fight you learn in 20 minutes. Indications are clear, it is a matter of learning how to play the mode.

[Sovereign.1093]

What's that stat power toughness fero and healing? Any roamers use this? Feels has potential.

[acidic.4356]

@"Sovereign.1093" said:What's that stat power toughness fero and healing? Any roamers use this? Feels has potential.

its crusader stats sov... and i use an almost full crusader ranger sometimes, thats for solo roaming and is pretty damm good even after ranger nerfs. was using it before nerfs too.. aslong as u hit 30% base crit.. u have perma fury so ur always 50%. something like this http://gw2skills.net/editor/?POwEwE2osAmH7h1xMxTay9VWi0PA-zRZYBRHEGyLPxQhFeGBqE6VGoxDQA7h3yvzAA-e

and im sure ele can make good use of the stat too cele/crusader mix maybe

[Cuks.8241]

I don't really understand the complaint here. So there are optimized squads running around WvW maps and are no match for a random pug group or solo roamer? And you want what exactly? To break up these groups, to somehow remove the team play.And how would removing the serious players or the reason they play help the game mode?

And no, not any random pve raid group can enter pvp and farm players. Actually on the contrary I see plenty of pve players or groups in their berserker/scholar gear come to wvw and think that just casting their dmg rotation will do anything. And 20 sec later they get demolished by smaller groups or even solo players and wonder why they did 0 dmg.Pvp is not about your big dmg rotations, those are slow, easily foreseen and as such easily mitigated. PVP is about dmg mitigation, movement, interruption, cleansing and in between all of that you need to find short windows of vulnerability where their mitigation skills are on CD and their boons are not up and there you make a kill.

[Sovereign.1093]

@acidic.4356 said:

@"Sovereign.1093" said:What's that stat power toughness fero and healing? Any roamers use this? Feels has potential.

its crusader stats sov... and i use an almost full crusader ranger sometimes, thats for solo roaming and is pretty kitten good even after ranger nerfs. was using it before nerfs too.. aslong as u hit 30% base crit.. u have perma fury so ur always 50%. something like this

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?POwEwE2osAmH7h1xMxTay9VWi0PA-zRZYBRHEGyLPxQhFeGBqE6VGoxDQA7h3yvzAA-e

and im sure ele can make good use of the stat too cele/crusader mix maybe

Nice. I don't know how to play ranger but will test that out. 1649 is the full cele toughness. 1.8k isn't that a lot?

[acidic.4356]

test and see...adjust if ya like to ur preference... the build i posted is for solo and can solo anythin in wvw,all the towers,keeps, everythin..and will kill 90% of what u meet in wvw, it lacks mad dmg ofc, is purely for sustain, which means u will stalemate some 1v1s etc.. and ofc the top duelists will most likely kill u... but it is what it is... a very good solo build for wvw. im not actually runnin ranger much these days... ive always been one to run every class i can... and its the only thing keeping my interest being able to swap around and try shit out.... rev or ele is my rotation at the moment..with a touch of burn dh thrown in...

[Sovereign.1093]

@acidic.4356 said:test and see...adjust if ya like to ur preference... the build i posted is for solo and can solo anythin in wvw,all the towers,keeps, everythin..and will kill 90% of what u meet in wvw, it lacks mad dmg ofc, is purely for sustain, which means u will stalemate some 1v1s etc.. and ofc the top duelists will most likely kill u... but it is what it is... a very good solo build for wvw. im not actually runnin ranger much these days... ive always been one to run every class i can... and its the only thing keeping my interest being able to swap around and try kitten out.... rev or ele is my rotation at the moment..with a touch of burn dh thrown in...

Aye. Will probably do that. I don't enjoy solo roaming but maybe with a buddy, I can partner with someone during early raid.

[Riba.3271]

Yup WvW balance is bit iffy now. its mostly player distribution though which is caused by attacking being so hard that "to enjoy old good times of sustain WvW" while attacking you must stack on a server.

Foods aren't really the issue, claim buff and minstrel stats are. Pugs don't like to play minstrel~ so you guild stack on server to have enuf minstrel players.

[primatos.5413]

Calm down..it all will become even worse with the new expansion

[Junkpile.7439]

Abuse game mechanics and blob. Loser way to play, but effective.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

@Baine.9650i'd not say u cannot run full zerker gear, but u have to know where you can stand and cast your stuff. surely not openfield alone into a zerg. i rarely am that bored, but i can walk a ranger full glassy dps build around a full blob for 40minutes, if it runs just around inside our keep and pew pew. boring but working farm. you have to use dodges and sometimes just jump out before u get pulled.

ele meteor shower is good if anybody else finished downed and if u are not spotted casting i think, it's not my class (means i have no ele yet) but i'm sure it gets the kills quite fine if timed correctly. maybe try first to get kills while accompanying one of your servers' zergs and/or at defending your servers' keeps and maybe towers (killing siege/rams).. it just takes some time till u understand what's going on.

@Threather.9354 if they nerf firebrand more, the format would just die tho.

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

@Baine.9650 said:

@Infusion.7149 said:If it's an organized guild they will have protection up (-33% damage), stability, aegis, and cleanses / heals / resistance. If there's a jalis rev that's another 50% damage reduction and Tome of Courage's Unbroken lines applies 200 toughness in WvW. Most full support classes are 3000+ toughness if they need to stay in melee range. DPS classes not running life steal cilantro food have -10% incoming damage food (peppercorn).

If you're fighting in an enemy keep there's an additional 200 toughness if presence of the keep bonus is active.

You cannot treat WvW as a PvE raid. You shouldn't be running full berserker gear, especially not on an elementalist.

The only consumable I can think of that is broken is the potion of karka toughness which stacks on top of food for +150 toughness.

Thank for explaining, this is probably what's happening. If what you say is true then there should be clearer indicators when targets are nigh unkillable so that weaker players understand they are outmatched and that they should run.

You are trying to find a reason you lost that is stat based, rather than skill based. However you were out played, that is it.

If you are solo and taking on a comped guild group, you will lose, if you are in a pug group, where 80% don't even have proper builds (and seems like you are one of those), you are still going to lose. Those who take the time to train, understand their builds, comp their parties, communicate movements and bombs etc in voice coms etc etc are going to be better than any pug group unless it's 2 times it's size.

That is not to say I don't agree about food items etc, I think they should be removed, or at the very least, only the WvW provisioner food should be usable in WvW. Stat buffs from structures etc should also be removed, they already have siege and protection from walls etc inside, they don't need another buff. They should be replaced with other non combat effecting buffs.

However, even with those removed, you would still have lost the fight you were describing in the OP.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

@"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" heavy disagree here tho. yes you can tighten the food-gap by using cheap badge food/utility. i also hope the OP realized yet that he didn't lose because of plain stats. i listed all the stuff that affects dps to show a bit what makes your damage output really big.

but removing stat buffs from keeps is absurd. people who suggest this probably never play in outnumbered siege defenses, where you have to basically kite-bomb-stomp blobs down with like 20 pugs only.

also upgrading the guild auras did cost stuff, you cannot just steal that from the players.

besides, the walls offer not much "protection" lol.beeing on the wall is for anything that isn't ranger, rev or ele pretty much a suicide spot. walls only stall invading zergs or blobs for 10minutes, before they can try to nuke the keeps lord.

[Riba.3271]

@kamikharzeeh.8016 said:@"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" heavy disagree here tho. yes you can tighten the food-gap by using cheap badge food/utility. i also hope the OP realized yet that he didn't lose because of plain stats. i listed all the stuff that affects dps to show a bit what makes your damage output really big.

but removing stat buffs from keeps is absurd. people who suggest this probably never play in outnumbered siege defenses, where you have to basically kite-bomb-stomp blobs down with like 20 pugs only.

also upgrading the guild auras did cost stuff, you cannot just steal that from the players.

besides, the walls offer not much "protection" lol.beeing on the wall is for anything that isn't ranger, rev or ele pretty much a suicide spot. walls only stall invading zergs or blobs for 10minutes, before they can try to nuke the keeps lord.

Stat buff is exactly what needs to be reduced. They can buff ACs or wall/gate Hp a bit to make up for it. No one is saying they should remove it completely because it is guild upgrade but make it like +30 each stat which is already considerable amount. +400/+800 stats for every camp defender and wall camper doesn't only make playstyles favour "Off-hour upgrade then just defend, never attack anything", but also shuts down ways of playing the game for roamers (try ganking someone respawning that has 200 extra vit+toughness inside keep). Do note that attacking gives enemy stats meaning you can hit as much as 1600 stat difference by having "attacker" playstyle.

Of course there are other offenders like Dragon banner favoring defender more, mounts being too fast, defenders being able to mountstomp directly after running back from respawn and such.

Anyways Claim buff and all these other shiny tools didn't exist before HoT and WvW balance was much better back then, people just didn't notice it when HoT launched because guilds took almost a month to get WvW auras going back then. Objectives also upgraded MUCH slower, had much weaker lords and had way less supply which ment attacking definitely had quite fun balance back then: Defender had some siege, around one respawn and chokepoints, nothing else.

There are reason players are stacking on servers, its because to attack objectives you need to be MUCH stronger than the enemy. And just twiddling your thumbs in keep waiting for enemy that might never come to hit your stuff isn't fun.

Overall if you're being that much outnumbered, the stats won't help you much, having stronger walls/gate would as you would have more time to kill enemy siege with your siege/damage. You should lose the keep anyways once they breach the inner.

[Solanum.6983]

I get your frustrations but that's just how the game mode works. I do agree though that stuff like ascended food or the ingredients to craft it should be part of a reward track to make it more accessible to everyone but even still I think the main issue with WvW is the difference in population on servers.

My Server is a lot of the time outnumbered and these types of coordinated, kitted out groups steamroll their way trough the map but there's not much you can really do.I think Outnumbered should give some sort of buff to help even the playing field rather than just upping the rewards for an unfair matchup.

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

@kamikharzeeh.8016 said:@"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" heavy disagree here tho. yes you can tighten the food-gap by using cheap badge food/utility. i also hope the OP realized yet that he didn't lose because of plain stats. i listed all the stuff that affects dps to show a bit what makes your damage output really big.

but removing stat buffs from keeps is absurd. people who suggest this probably never play in outnumbered siege defenses, where you have to basically kite-bomb-stomp blobs down with like 20 pugs only.

also upgrading the guild auras did cost stuff, you cannot just steal that from the players.

besides, the walls offer not much "protection" lol.beeing on the wall is for anything that isn't ranger, rev or ele pretty much a suicide spot. walls only stall invading zergs or blobs for 10minutes, before they can try to nuke the keeps lord.

I am almost always fighting out numbered. I have posted many videos of this, I have posted videos on how to defend, how to use siege, I have posted videos of how broken things like DB are. I have also played since beta, I know very well what has gone into guilds (Max scribe who has also been the main person to upgrade two guilds), however just because someone put time into a broken aspect of a game does not mean it should be untouchable. Many people put time and money in leveling and gearing a toon because it's over performing, does that mean all nerfs or changes should not be allowed because someone invested some time and gold into it? No, because that would be ridiculous.

Stat buffs are just more power creep, if you can't defend with walls, siege etc etc and if you can't keep them out and then can't field the numbers needed to wipe them, YOU DON'T DESERVE TO KEEP THE STRUCTURE. I don't understand why people don't get this. Just because you own it at a given time does not mean you have the right to keep it vs all odds.

With that said, I have defended solo vs 30+ while 10+ other people just ran back and forth getting nuked on the walls because they have no idea what placement or stab is, best part is that NONE seem to run any cleanse at all, I just stand there watching these people eat 15 stacks of burn and THEN jump back while their health ticks until they are in down state. And those buffs are not going to keep people like this alive. What it does do however, for those who actually fight out numbered is it means when I am trying to cap a T3 bay/hills with 5 people and I am fighting for supply, breaking down walls, while having iron guards spawning non-stopped while siege rains on us and 10 people inside to scared to face half their numbers pew pew from the walls AND have stat buffs to top it all off. All these things do is cause people to turtle inside structures. When 10 pugs are trying to defend vs a blob it will not save them, however when the smaller out number server tries to take anything the larger population server holds, everything is upgraded with full buffs and often times matching or out numbering us in defenders. Those buffs then become yet another barrier for a server to come back from, just like DB and many other aspects, it becomes a snowball effect after a given point.