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Spoilers - New episode ruined charr for me.


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I love the new map. Its beautiful and the events are fun. However the story....honestly made me want to take a break.I agreed with smodur the entire time. Charr should not be showing compassion to their enemies. They never have. They had no trouble killing off hundreds of flame legion when they were traitors and refused to side with humans, but when other legions do the same, and even worse, risk the entire world with the threat of an elder dragon, somehow its terrible and a war crime. I absolutely hate that all other charr are taking this 'moral' route and even worse that my character is forced to agree with them, outside of one decision.

Charr prioritize loyalty to their warband over anything, except their imperitor. Betraying or losing a warband is bad enough to make a charr a gladium outcast, yet the characters constantly prioritize their son over everything in this episode wanting to 'bring him home' at the risk of losing the war. It would be understandable maybe for crecia and rytlock to take this stance but I have no idea why then other imperitors are on their side. They never cared about saving charr with the flame legion, and they have no reason to care about ryland.

Letting cinder go free as a gesture of 'trust' would have been a stupid mistake, she would have just become another icebrood minion, and im glad at least smodur acts like a charr, rather than a human even if the writing is runing him too, making him appear stupid because he needs to be the baddie.

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One thing to bear in mind is what Smodur is saying doesn't match with what he's doing. He says he's fighting for all charr and wants them to be independant of other races but what he's doing is killing huge number of them (who he shows no regard for) and handing the rest over to Jormag to be turned into icebrood, which involves losing their free will and becoming slaves to the dragon.

I'm not sure yet if he's just an idiot who refuses to understand that you can't control an elder dragon and thinks if he shouts and stamps his feet enough he'll get his way (not great qualities in a leader at the best of times, but a lot more concerning when the whole of Tyria is in danger) or if Jormag got to him and he's so far gone he really believes what he's doing is for the good of the charr and can't understand that the only one who will benefit from this is Jormag.

Either way the other charr aren't opposed to what he claims to want. Smodur has been going on about that for years, even the treaty with Divinity's Reach was framed as needing to pacify the humans so the charr could focus on actual threats. The problem is what he's doing is actually rounding up as many charr as possible to turn them into dragon minions.

Edit: Apparently not sleeping is getting to me even more than I realised. I always mix those two up, but usually remember to check before posting about them.

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@Danikat.8537 said:One thing to bear in mind is what Smodur is saying doesn't match with what he's doing. He says he's fighting for all charr and wants them to be independant of other races but what he's doing is killing huge number of them (who he shows no regard for) and handing the rest over to Jormag to be turned into icebrood, which involves losing their free will and becoming slaves to the dragon.

I'm not sure yet if he's just an idiot who refuses to understand that you can't control an elder dragon and thinks if he shouts and stamps his feet enough he'll get his way (not great qualities in a leader at the best of times, but a lot more concerning when the whole of Tyria is in danger) or if Jormag got to him and he's so far gone he really believes what he's doing is for the good of the charr and can't understand that the only one who will benefit from this is Jormag.

Either way the other charr aren't opposed to what he claims to want. Smodur has been going on about that for years, even the treaty with Divinity's Reach was framed as needing to pacify the humans so the charr could focus on actual threats. The problem is what he's doing is actually rounding up as many charr as possible to turn them into dragon minions.

Are you talking about bangor or smodur? Smodur wants to kill bangors supporters because they are traitors to the charr and threaten the world with their mission to awaken jormag. He doesnt show any mercy for those he considers traitors. bangors the one rounding up charr under the promise of independance and handing them over to jormag.

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@Danikat.8537 said:One thing to bear in mind is what Smodur is saying doesn't match with what he's doing. He says he's fighting for all charr and wants them to be independant of other races but what he's doing is killing huge number of them (who he shows no regard for) and handing the rest over to Jormag to be turned into icebrood, which involves losing their free will and becoming slaves to the dragon.

I'm not sure yet if he's just an idiot who refuses to understand that you can't control an elder dragon and thinks if he shouts and stamps his feet enough he'll get his way (not great qualities in a leader at the best of times, but a lot more concerning when the whole of Tyria is in danger) or if Jormag got to him and he's so far gone he really believes what he's doing is for the good of the charr and can't understand that the only one who will benefit from this is Jormag.

Either way the other charr aren't opposed to what he claims to want. Smodur has been going on about that for years, even the treaty with Divinity's Reach was framed as needing to pacify the humans so the charr could focus on actual threats. The problem is what he's doing is actually rounding up as many charr as possible to turn them into dragon minions.

You are talking about Bangar, not Smodur, right?

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Flame Legion weren't traitors, they controlled/ruled the other 3 legions until Kalla led the rebellion against them.Calling them just traitors who refused to side with humans is an understatement. They were actively rebuilding their forces after they fled to the CoF to reclaim their rule over all Charr. They nearly created a new God / Gaheron was already in god form, and we know what Gods fighting did to Elona.

Fighting against Flame Legion supremacists which had been their oppressors for generations is one thing.

The Dominion is formed by Charr of all legions, most of them from Blood. One year ago they weren't enemies, they were part of the same legions.

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@zombyturtle.5980 said:~snip~

Letting cinder go free as a gesture of 'trust' would have been a stupid mistake, she would have just become another icebrood minion, and im glad at least smodur acts like a charr, rather than a human.

If as you seem to imply you've played through to the end of the current story arc, you would have caught on to the part of Ryland not even caring about Cinder, until Smodur kills her right in front of his face, he shrugged off the mention of the others being dead already. Do you know why? He already knew they'd been turned into Icebrood, even dead...yes, Vishan was already dead yet you fought them again at the end. Ryland did care about Cinder, it shows when he goes ballistic after Smodur killed her in front of his face, he didn't want her to become Frost Legion...which is why he wanted her released. Pretty subtle story telling if you don't pay attention to the clues.

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@zombyturtle.5980 said:It would be understandable maybe for crecia and rytlock to take this stance but I have no idea why then other imperitors are on their side. They never cared about saving charr with the flame legion, and they have no reason to care about ryland.I thought it was pretty clear in the story that the others cared about bringing Ryland in because of the chance he could bring with him the Steel Warband and weaken Bangar's forces considerably.

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@Zaklex.6308 said:

@zombyturtle.5980 said:~snip~

Letting cinder go free as a gesture of 'trust' would have been a stupid mistake, she would have just become another icebrood minion, and im glad at least smodur acts like a charr, rather than a human.

If as you seem to imply you've played through to the end of the current story arc, you would have caught on to the part of Ryland not even caring about Cinder, until Smodur kills her right in front of his face, he shrugged off the mention of the others being dead already. Do you know why? He already knew they'd been turned into Icebrood, even dead...yes, Vishan was already dead yet you fought them again at the end. Ryland did care about Cinder, it shows when he goes ballistic after Smodur killed her in front of his face, he didn't want her to become Frost Legion...which is why he wanted her released. Pretty subtle story telling if you don't pay attention to the clues.

I did realise but I dont see what thats got to do with anything. Ryland runs straight back to bangar. He cant protect his warband from jormag as long as hes with bangar and he isnt gunna betray bangar anytime soon. He would have done so when bangar turned his warband into jormags minions if he was going to.

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@mindcircus.1506 said:

@zombyturtle.5980 said:It would be understandable maybe for crecia and rytlock to take this stance but I have no idea why then other imperitors are on their side. They never cared about saving charr with the flame legion, and they have no reason to care about ryland.I thought it was pretty clear in the story that the others cared about bringing Ryland in because of the chance he could bring with him the Steel Warband and weaken Bangar's forces considerably.

Considering most of the steel warband were dead already by that point, it doesnt make any sense to me.

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Back in LW2, after the attack on the Pale Tree, Smodur was the only leader thinking about the sylvari. He said something like 'we help this poor sylvari and then return'. The only one.

So he is able to feel compassion.

Just not for those he regards as threat and / or traitors.

What I really dislike was the reactions at the start when the deserters were shot. Of course they are shot! They are deserters! Even in the real world, most countries stopped shooting deserters only a few decades ago - and here we are, the oh-so-tough charr and the oh-so-badass Rytlock going all misty-eyed because some deserters are shot.

Really? Did you have to destroy Rytlock like that?

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Only did one play through of No quarter, but if you pick not to drop the grenade thing in the vent does it change the outcome for that part?

Bangar's stated vision of one Charr is more akin to a lie if you think about it, I wouldn't consider Frost Legion to be real charr any more than Sons of Svanir are Norn.

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Actually, up until that point, Smodur was presented as one of the most level-headed, calm and reasonable charr leaders, and constantly been put in opposition to Bangar in this. Unfortunately, in this chapter, he is no more acting like that. He suddenly turned into a "do a frontal charge and slaughter them all" kind of diplomat, and someone on a very bad case of a power trip. In many ways, his character is now even worse than Bangar's, and i wouldn't be surprised if we found out he's opposing Bangar's plan not because he thinks it's bad one, but because he is not the one that is executing it. If he acted this way earlier, he would never have become the most likely candidate for Khan-ur from all of the emperors (and i'm not sure he would have become an emperor of an Iron legion either, unless he has done it climbing a mountain of corpses and frightening everyone away from complaining - but that kind of backstory would have been mentioned by now and would certainly have colored the way other Charr were describing him - and yet we haven't heard anything like that before).

So, in my opinion, there are 3 choices:

  1. He has always been this way, but was good at covering his tracks, and now, after Bangar went his own way, he feels that, as the only candidate for Khan-Ur left, he needs no longer to hide his real self. This i consider to be not very likely. If he was so good at controlling himself for his whole life, he would be able to control himself now. Also, up to this point, he was one of the charr that could understand the value of a good diplomatic solution to the problem. Just as he had no problem dealing with humans in order to be free to face the Branded and Foefire ghosts, he should have had no problem dealing with Ryland to have one problem less when confronting Bangar. If he really finds traitors (which Ryland technically isn't seeing as he's still following his blood legion emperor) to be so distasteful, he still could delay dealing with them (and purging all internal charr opposition) until after he's dealt with the main problem at hand - Jormag. He should have been diplomat enough to realize that acting all and mighty before he's crowned might weaken his position with Ash and Flame, as well as with the remains of Blood.It's just too big of a change. It's not his attitude that is different now, but also his very way of thinking. It just doesn't fit.
  2. He indeed did change that much in a very short time span. That could not be a natural change however - something (or someone) might have "influenced" him. Which might be connected to those "terrible things that lurk beyond the horizon" Jormag warned us about, or not.
  3. Screenwriters made a mistake and derailed the character.
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@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:What I really dislike was the reactions at the start when the deserters were shot. Of course they are shot! They are deserters! Even in the real world, most countries stopped shooting deserters only a few decades ago - and here we are, the oh-so-tough charr and the oh-so-kitten Rytlock going all misty-eyed because some deserters are shot.

Really? Did you have to destroy Rytlock like that?If you haven't noticed, the other charr' reaction is not due to being sentimental (apart from the Ryland case, perhaps). It's because at this moment the "traitors and enemies" ountumber the loyalists. So, first, the loyalists do need all the help they can get, even if it's using those that turned once. Second, killing all those charr off would cripple the legions. You just don't kill off half of your race like that and expect no negative consequences - or outrage even from lot of hardliners. Also, notice, how noone - not even Smodur - has any problems with blood legion charr that deserted Bangar. So, obviously, it's not being traitors/deserters that Smodur objects to. It's acting against him that he finds personally unforgivable.Also, one more point that might get the others - including Rytlock - riled. Smodur is now acting exactly like Flame Legion of old did. You know, those guys the Blood, Iron and Ash rebelled against.

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@Infusion.7149 said:Only did one play through of No quarter, but if you pick not to drop the grenade thing in the vent does it change the outcome for that part?

Bangar's stated vision of one Charr is more akin to a lie if you think about it, I wouldn't consider Frost Legion to be real charr any more than Sons of Svanir are Norn.

I actually picked that option and for some reason the bomb was dropped in anyway. I didn't quite catch if it was Rytlock who dropped it or what happened. There was nothing in my chat log that would indicate who dropped the bomb.

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@zombyturtle.5980 said:

@zombyturtle.5980 said:It would be understandable maybe for crecia and rytlock to take this stance but I have no idea why then other imperitors are on their side. They never cared about saving charr with the flame legion, and they have no reason to care about ryland.I thought it was pretty clear in the story that the others cared about bringing Ryland in because of the chance he could bring with him the Steel Warband and weaken Bangar's forces considerably.

Considering most of the steel warband were dead already by that point, it doesnt make any sense to me.We are holding Cinder hostage to lure him to the meeting. The idea of wanting Ryalnd to switch sides is brought up well before any of the Steel warband meet their end.
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@"Zaklex.6308" said: snip Ryland did care about Cinder, it shows when he goes ballistic after Smodur killed her in front of his face, he didn't want her to become Frost Legion...which is why he wanted her released. Pretty subtle story telling if you don't pay attention to the clues.

"...goes ballistic"? He ran away like the petulant child he is. I hope, hope, hope, we get to kill him in the next episode. And Smodur.

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For someone who brokered peace with Humans, the Charr's greatest enemy... Smoldr wasn't very diplomatic or even pragmatic in this chapter. Killing Cinder, a defenseless prisoner of war, served no purpose other than to send Ryland into a blind rage... which might have been Smoldr's plan. After all, Ryland was a strong candidate for khan ur...

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@misterman.1530 said:

@"Zaklex.6308" said:
snip
Ryland did care about Cinder, it shows when he goes ballistic after Smodur killed her in front of his face, he didn't want her to become Frost Legion...which is why he wanted her released. Pretty subtle story telling if you don't pay attention to the clues.

"...goes ballistic"? He ran away like the petulant child he is. I hope, hope, hope, we get to kill him in the next episode. And Smodur.

His very first move was to lunge directly at Smodur with sword drawn, and the only reason he didn't go through with his attack was because of the protective shield put up around Smodur by Crecia...or did you miss that part? To me that shows him going ballistic.

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I feel like the story team read all the forum threads about braham being a unlikable character, and said to themselves " hold my beer". No one is likable at this point. Nothing like starting the story with a mass execution to make me feel like it is worth fighting for. I even refused to throw the searing crystal in the shaft, and they stole that agency from me.Steel and fire introduced us to interesting characters, now they are just nameless mobs to mow down like everywhere else. Bangar killing soulkeeper and us knowing that had 0 effect on the story.

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@"White Kitsunee.4620" said:You can argue away the other NPCs excuses for acting the way they did in the face of smodur.

But what's in excusable is

  1. the game acted like he was wrongWell, he definitely didn't act rational here.
  2. My iron legion chart Pzc acted like he was wrong. She should be super down with what he was doing.If your Charr is also one that would consider purging over half of the Charr population to be the "right" choice, then my Charr would definitely not want to be on the same side as yours. Frankly, at this point even Bangar seems to be a more reasonable charr leader than Smodur, and that's telling something.
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@Zaklex.6308 said:

snip
Ryland did care about Cinder, it shows when he goes ballistic after Smodur killed her in front of his face, he didn't want her to become Frost Legion...which is why he wanted her released. Pretty subtle story telling if you don't pay attention to the clues.

"...goes ballistic"? He ran away like the petulant child he is. I hope, hope, hope, we get to kill him in the next episode. And Smodur.

His very first move was to lunge directly at Smodur with sword drawn, and the only reason he didn't go through with his attack was because of the protective shield put up around Smodur by Crecia...or did you miss that part? To me that shows him going ballistic.

That, and the running wasn't fleeing, it was a strategic retreat to draw his opponents (us) to a killing field filled with his allies. Smart, not craven. He kited us :)

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