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Revenant is the least played profession. Heres how to buff them

aaron.7850

By aaron.7850
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Aeolus.3615

Aeolus.3615

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@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@jpsssss.7530 said:3) rev needs a better way to deal with condis. it has 1 baby cleanse one stance swap, and 1 decent one on jalis. Resistance is bad and since it corrupts to chill you cant change my mind.

With how many sources Rev has for resistance it’s not bad at all. Sure they can corrupt it, but you just reapply it a second or two later and it’s not a problem. And on top of that Condi Herald has plenty of potential cleanse anyway for when you don’t have resistance. In WvW you’re practically a condi immune god, which is not something you can say about the vast majority of other builds, even those wit high cleanse. In PvP however you’re partially right since they did nerf the durations by 50%, but you can still get high enough resistance for it to not really be a problem. Also corruption is only an issue against Necro so ??‍
♂️

The issue with resistance as Rev’s main form of condi mitigation is mostly that it’s really only applicable to condi builds, which does leave power based builds wanting more cleanse. Personally I’m okay with this though it’s always felt like a fair trade off and something you can still partially build around with runes and sigils.

staff cleanses 2 and shield 1, if i recall ventary f2 while on herald and Soothing Stone clears more than 3 condis :\I always found deamon gameplay a bit to much energy consuming.

Shield 5 skill roots the player just to be killed with unblockables easily maybe Anet can improve the skill to consume conditions to improve heal while rooted., for exampe if one use shield 5 each blocked atack will condi cleanse or gain resistance????Players need to pay atention on combat ra ther than spam and expct mostly for instant results, while rev would still be punished for unblcokables on shield 5.

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Telgum.6071
Telgum.6071

I love how people just spam the confused face while being completly unable to argument why would revenant ever need buffs.   Meanwhile, Revenant is god tier in WvW, Raids, Fractals and Open

Konrad Curze.5130
Konrad Curze.5130

If you consider play hours per day, only taking into account the number of days that the profession actually existed for (2092 days for rev, 3243 for all the others as of today), the numbers are, in h

Obtena.7952
Obtena.7952

Are you talking about competitive modes here? Because herald is one of the most broken classes for PVE at this moment. 

Shaogin.2679

Shaogin.2679

Posted
Posted

As someone that really wants to like the Revenant but just can't get into it, I will provide my insights on why I don't play the class.

To start off, my main class is a Necromancer, but I also have extensive play time on Engineer, Ranger, and Guardian as well, with Engineer being my first level 80. I have been playing since launch, so I have played these classes through all their ups and downs. I also played Revenant during the little trial they did before HoT released. I now have a Revenant with elite specs completely unlocked and fully geared.

With that out of the way, Revenant is boring as hell to me. I mean, it looks very cool. I love the Legends and their skills. It feels like the energy system severely limits the class though. I get it is supposed to add some layer of "skill" to the class, and that may be somewhat true for PvP, but it is an epic fail. In PvE, the gameplay revolves around mainly auto attacking, using a couple of key skills from the current legend, then swapping legends, rinse and repeat. Also side note, as someone that can hit benchmarks on a Condi Engi, I found it out right laughable that anyone considers a Revenant PvE build to be difficult to play. It is actually easier than Necro and Ranger, the two "noob" classes.

Revenant also feels very restricting as far as build diversity goes compared to other classes. Each weapon and legend has such a narrow role that it fills, it feels like I'm pretty much forced into these little preset combinations. I love playing a healer in games, but I hate Healer Renegade so much. It just feels horrible to play. Then, worst of all, you lose literally every single support ability as soon as you hit the water. Like wtf!?

I also hate that you can't just stick with a legend and swap to the second legend only when needed. Like Malyx is awesome as hell, but I can't just play Malyx. I have to take a separate legend, with a vastly different style, and constantly swap between the two. This one isn't a huge issue for me, but it does suck when I'm wanting to go for a certain style or theme with my Rev.

To sum it up though, three main reasons I hate Rev:

  • Boring and simple to play
  • Lack of build diversity
  • Being forced to constantly swap legends instead of just playing on the legend I think is super cool.
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Virdo.1540

Virdo.1540

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@Sobx.1758 said:

And what exactly do you enjoy about Herald's playstyle (in comparison to rev/rng) if it's not about its performance?

I like the aspect system.
I like the all-arounder theme from the herald, like dps/support mix
(even tho full dps or full support are still bad, a mix wont be better)And i like to be an asset in groups, which means i could fill out a support role, i could fill out an dps slot, tank, simply cc a lot etc.

It can do many things, but nothing really good though.

Seems like these things are reasonably connected to each other and giving more one way or another is a good way to simply overload the spec/build, which generally is a nono.

technically, its still something that many different classes can do at the same time,... some even better.

And you think this is a good thing for the game? I don't, which is also why I hold the position I do.

me neither. Thats why i hold mine :bleep_bloop:

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Sobx.1758

Sobx.1758

Posted
Posted

@Virdo.1540 said:

And what exactly do you enjoy about Herald's playstyle (in comparison to rev/rng) if it's not about its performance?

I like the aspect system.
I like the all-arounder theme from the herald, like dps/support mix
(even tho full dps or full support are still bad, a mix wont be better)And i like to be an asset in groups, which means i could fill out a support role, i could fill out an dps slot, tank, simply cc a lot etc.

It can do many things, but nothing really good though.

Seems like these things are reasonably connected to each other and giving more one way or another is a good way to simply overload the spec/build, which generally is a nono.

technically, its still something that many different classes can do at the same time,... some even better.

And you think this is a good thing for the game? I don't, which is also why I hold the position I do.

me neither. Thats why i hold mine :bleep_bloop:

So you also think it's not good for the game, which is why... you think your class should be changed to be what you don't want to see in the game? I'm confused about what you've just said here. Explain?

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Virdo.1540

Virdo.1540

Posted
Posted

@Sobx.1758 said:

And what exactly do you enjoy about Herald's playstyle (in comparison to rev/rng) if it's not about its performance?

I like the aspect system.
I like the all-arounder theme from the herald, like dps/support mix
(even tho full dps or full support are still bad, a mix wont be better)And i like to be an asset in groups, which means i could fill out a support role, i could fill out an dps slot, tank, simply cc a lot etc.

It can do many things, but nothing really good though.

Seems like these things are reasonably connected to each other and giving more one way or another is a good way to simply overload the spec/build, which generally is a nono.

technically, its still something that many different classes can do at the same time,... some even better.

And you think this is a good thing for the game? I don't, which is also why I hold the position I do.

me neither. Thats why i hold mine :bleep_bloop:

So you also think
it's not good for the game
, which is why... you think
your class
should be changed to be what you don't want to see in the game? I'm confused about what you've just said here. Explain?

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.Compare it with celestial stats & 3-stat combos. Celestial stats have an WAY bigger stat-amount, while still being terrible.

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Sobx.1758

Sobx.1758

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Posted

@Virdo.1540 said:

And what exactly do you enjoy about Herald's playstyle (in comparison to rev/rng) if it's not about its performance?

I like the aspect system.
I like the all-arounder theme from the herald, like dps/support mix
(even tho full dps or full support are still bad, a mix wont be better)And i like to be an asset in groups, which means i could fill out a support role, i could fill out an dps slot, tank, simply cc a lot etc.

It can do many things, but nothing really good though.

Seems like these things are reasonably connected to each other and giving more one way or another is a good way to simply overload the spec/build, which generally is a nono.

technically, its still something that many different classes can do at the same time,... some even better.

And you think this is a good thing for the game? I don't, which is also why I hold the position I do.

me neither. Thats why i hold mine :bleep_bloop:

So you also think
it's not good for the game
, which is why... you think
your class
should be changed to be what you don't want to see in the game? I'm confused about what you've just said here. Explain?

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.Compare it with celestial stats & 3-stat combos. Celestial stats have an WAY bigger stat-amount, while still being terrible.

It's like you completely forgot what was in the previous messages. Consider re-reading and not pretending you're looking for balance here. Actually I'll do it for you:You: "I like the all-arounder theme from the herald, like dps/support mix [...] It can do many things, but nothing really good though."-"seems like one is connected with the other and buffing it would make it overloaded"You: "...but other classes!" (no specific examples btw)-"but I don't think it's healthy for the game, which is why I hold the position that I do" (as in: stop trying to overbuff "your class")You: "me neither. Thats why i hold mine(??)" (soo... "I think it's not healthy for the game, which is why I think it should be buffed" ?? )

-explainYou:

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.

Previously you've said you enjoy the "dps/support mix" and the "all-rounder" type of class. Now you say that if something is an allrounder, it should be buffed so... it's not longer an allrounder? That makes no sense in regards of what you've initially claimed about you enjoying the class and agreeing (yeaaaaa...) about classes "doing everything being unhealthy for the game". You basically admit to simply wanting to overbuff the class (spec, to be more accurate) you excelusively play so it can do everything at the same time in the optimal manner. While saying you also think it's not healthy for the game.uh...

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Virdo.1540

Virdo.1540

Posted
Posted

@Sobx.1758 said:

And what exactly do you enjoy about Herald's playstyle (in comparison to rev/rng) if it's not about its performance?

I like the aspect system.
I like the all-arounder theme from the herald, like dps/support mix
(even tho full dps or full support are still bad, a mix wont be better)And i like to be an asset in groups, which means i could fill out a support role, i could fill out an dps slot, tank, simply cc a lot etc.

It can do many things, but nothing really good though.

Seems like these things are reasonably connected to each other and giving more one way or another is a good way to simply overload the spec/build, which generally is a nono.

technically, its still something that many different classes can do at the same time,... some even better.

And you think this is a good thing for the game? I don't, which is also why I hold the position I do.

me neither. Thats why i hold mine :bleep_bloop:

So you also think
it's not good for the game
, which is why... you think
your class
should be changed to be what you don't want to see in the game? I'm confused about what you've just said here. Explain?

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.Compare it with celestial stats & 3-stat combos. Celestial stats have an WAY bigger stat-amount, while still being terrible.

It's like you completely forgot what was in the previous messages. Consider re-reading and not pretending you're looking for balance here. Actually I'll do it for you:You: "I like the
all-arounder
theme from the herald, like
dps/support mix
[...] It can do many things, but nothing really good though."-"seems like one is connected with the other and buffing it would make it overloaded"You: "...but other classes!" (no specific examples btw)-"but
I don't think it's healthy for the game
, which is why I hold the position that I do" (as in: stop trying to overbuff "
your class
")You: "
me neither
. Thats why i hold mine(??)" (soo... "I think it's not healthy for the game, which is why I think it should be buffed" ?? )

-explainYou:

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.

Previously you've said you enjoy the "dps/support mix" and the "all-rounder" type of class. Now you say that if something is an allrounder, it should be buffed so... it's not longer an allrounder? That makes no sense in regards of what you've initially claimed about you enjoying the class and agreeing (yeaaaaa...) about classes "doing everything being unhealthy for the game". You basically admit to simply wanting to overbuff the class (spec, to be more accurate) you excelusively play so it can do everything at the same time in the optimal manner. While saying you also think it's not healthy for the game.uh...

I like the design of specific classes performing in multiple roles.But its not healthy if almost Every class is a way better dps class + has a ton of supportive things to give for the group at the same time.

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Sobx.1758

Sobx.1758

Posted
Posted

@Virdo.1540 said:

And what exactly do you enjoy about Herald's playstyle (in comparison to rev/rng) if it's not about its performance?

I like the aspect system.
I like the all-arounder theme from the herald, like dps/support mix
(even tho full dps or full support are still bad, a mix wont be better)And i like to be an asset in groups, which means i could fill out a support role, i could fill out an dps slot, tank, simply cc a lot etc.

It can do many things, but nothing really good though.

Seems like these things are reasonably connected to each other and giving more one way or another is a good way to simply overload the spec/build, which generally is a nono.

technically, its still something that many different classes can do at the same time,... some even better.

And you think this is a good thing for the game? I don't, which is also why I hold the position I do.

me neither. Thats why i hold mine :bleep_bloop:

So you also think
it's not good for the game
, which is why... you think
your class
should be changed to be what you don't want to see in the game? I'm confused about what you've just said here. Explain?

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.Compare it with celestial stats & 3-stat combos. Celestial stats have an WAY bigger stat-amount, while still being terrible.

It's like you completely forgot what was in the previous messages. Consider re-reading and not pretending you're looking for balance here. Actually I'll do it for you:You: "I like the
all-arounder
theme from the herald, like
dps/support mix
[...] It can do many things, but nothing really good though."-"seems like one is connected with the other and buffing it would make it overloaded"You: "...but other classes!" (no specific examples btw)-"but
I don't think it's healthy for the game
, which is why I hold the position that I do" (as in: stop trying to overbuff "
your class
")You: "
me neither
. Thats why i hold mine(??)" (soo... "I think it's not healthy for the game, which is why I think it should be buffed" ?? )

-explainYou:

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.

Previously you've said you enjoy the "dps/support mix" and the "all-rounder" type of class. Now you say that if something is an allrounder, it should be buffed so... it's not longer an allrounder? That makes no sense in regards of what you've initially claimed about you enjoying the class and agreeing (yeaaaaa...) about classes "doing everything being unhealthy for the game". You basically admit to simply wanting to overbuff the class (spec, to be more accurate) you excelusively play so it can do everything at the same time in the optimal manner. While saying you also think it's not healthy for the game.uh...

I like the design of specific classes performing in multiple roles.But its not healthy if almost Every class is a way better dps class + has a ton of supportive things to give for the group at the same time.

But rev is perfectly fine as a dps class. And what you write about here is in general just false. Well, at least it's not any more true than it already is for rev.

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LucianTheAngelic.7054

LucianTheAngelic.7054

Posted
Posted

@Sobx.1758 said:

And what exactly do you enjoy about Herald's playstyle (in comparison to rev/rng) if it's not about its performance?

I like the aspect system.
I like the all-arounder theme from the herald, like dps/support mix
(even tho full dps or full support are still bad, a mix wont be better)And i like to be an asset in groups, which means i could fill out a support role, i could fill out an dps slot, tank, simply cc a lot etc.

It can do many things, but nothing really good though.

Seems like these things are reasonably connected to each other and giving more one way or another is a good way to simply overload the spec/build, which generally is a nono.

technically, its still something that many different classes can do at the same time,... some even better.

And you think this is a good thing for the game? I don't, which is also why I hold the position I do.

me neither. Thats why i hold mine :bleep_bloop:

So you also think
it's not good for the game
, which is why... you think
your class
should be changed to be what you don't want to see in the game? I'm confused about what you've just said here. Explain?

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.Compare it with celestial stats & 3-stat combos. Celestial stats have an WAY bigger stat-amount, while still being terrible.

It's like you completely forgot what was in the previous messages. Consider re-reading and not pretending you're looking for balance here. Actually I'll do it for you:You: "I like the
all-arounder
theme from the herald, like
dps/support mix
[...] It can do many things, but nothing really good though."-"seems like one is connected with the other and buffing it would make it overloaded"You: "...but other classes!" (no specific examples btw)-"but
I don't think it's healthy for the game
, which is why I hold the position that I do" (as in: stop trying to overbuff "
your class
")You: "
me neither
. Thats why i hold mine(??)" (soo... "I think it's not healthy for the game, which is why I think it should be buffed" ?? )

-explainYou:

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.

Previously you've said you enjoy the "dps/support mix" and the "all-rounder" type of class. Now you say that if something is an allrounder, it should be buffed so... it's not longer an allrounder? That makes no sense in regards of what you've initially claimed about you enjoying the class and agreeing (yeaaaaa...) about classes "doing everything being unhealthy for the game". You basically admit to simply wanting to overbuff the class (spec, to be more accurate) you excelusively play so it can do everything at the same time in the optimal manner. While saying you also think it's not healthy for the game.uh...

I like the design of specific classes performing in multiple roles.But its not healthy if almost Every class is a way better dps class + has a ton of supportive things to give for the group at the same time.

But rev is perfectly fine as a dps class. And what you write about here is in general just false. Well, at least it's not any more true than it already is for rev.I don't think Virdo or you have the same definition of "perfectly fine" (which is already a subjective measure in and of itself). You guys ought to just agree to disagree, because we all know you're fine with a (at best) 32k Herald benchmark Sobx, but not all of us are when the vast majority of specs are pulling 37-43k with much, much higher burst than Herald, while also offering more than Herald
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Virdo.1540

Virdo.1540

Posted
Posted

@Sobx.1758 said:

And what exactly do you enjoy about Herald's playstyle (in comparison to rev/rng) if it's not about its performance?

I like the aspect system.
I like the all-arounder theme from the herald, like dps/support mix
(even tho full dps or full support are still bad, a mix wont be better)And i like to be an asset in groups, which means i could fill out a support role, i could fill out an dps slot, tank, simply cc a lot etc.

It can do many things, but nothing really good though.

Seems like these things are reasonably connected to each other and giving more one way or another is a good way to simply overload the spec/build, which generally is a nono.

technically, its still something that many different classes can do at the same time,... some even better.

And you think this is a good thing for the game? I don't, which is also why I hold the position I do.

me neither. Thats why i hold mine :bleep_bloop:

So you also think
it's not good for the game
, which is why... you think
your class
should be changed to be what you don't want to see in the game? I'm confused about what you've just said here. Explain?

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.Compare it with celestial stats & 3-stat combos. Celestial stats have an WAY bigger stat-amount, while still being terrible.

It's like you completely forgot what was in the previous messages. Consider re-reading and not pretending you're looking for balance here. Actually I'll do it for you:You: "I like the
all-arounder
theme from the herald, like
dps/support mix
[...] It can do many things, but nothing really good though."-"seems like one is connected with the other and buffing it would make it overloaded"You: "...but other classes!" (no specific examples btw)-"but
I don't think it's healthy for the game
, which is why I hold the position that I do" (as in: stop trying to overbuff "
your class
")You: "
me neither
. Thats why i hold mine(??)" (soo... "I think it's not healthy for the game, which is why I think it should be buffed" ?? )

-explainYou:

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.

Previously you've said you enjoy the "dps/support mix" and the "all-rounder" type of class. Now you say that if something is an allrounder, it should be buffed so... it's not longer an allrounder? That makes no sense in regards of what you've initially claimed about you enjoying the class and agreeing (yeaaaaa...) about classes "doing everything being unhealthy for the game". You basically admit to simply wanting to overbuff the class (spec, to be more accurate) you excelusively play so it can do everything at the same time in the optimal manner. While saying you also think it's not healthy for the game.uh...

I like the design of specific classes performing in multiple roles.But its not healthy if almost Every class is a way better dps class + has a ton of supportive things to give for the group at the same time.

But rev is perfectly fine as a dps class. And what you write about here is in general just false. Well, at least it's not any more true than it already is for rev.

Renegade is not the same as Core Revenant or Herald

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Sobx.1758

Sobx.1758

Posted
Posted

@Virdo.1540 said:

And what exactly do you enjoy about Herald's playstyle (in comparison to rev/rng) if it's not about its performance?

I like the aspect system.
I like the all-arounder theme from the herald, like dps/support mix
(even tho full dps or full support are still bad, a mix wont be better)And i like to be an asset in groups, which means i could fill out a support role, i could fill out an dps slot, tank, simply cc a lot etc.

It can do many things, but nothing really good though.

Seems like these things are reasonably connected to each other and giving more one way or another is a good way to simply overload the spec/build, which generally is a nono.

technically, its still something that many different classes can do at the same time,... some even better.

And you think this is a good thing for the game? I don't, which is also why I hold the position I do.

me neither. Thats why i hold mine :bleep_bloop:

So you also think
it's not good for the game
, which is why... you think
your class
should be changed to be what you don't want to see in the game? I'm confused about what you've just said here. Explain?

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.Compare it with celestial stats & 3-stat combos. Celestial stats have an WAY bigger stat-amount, while still being terrible.

It's like you completely forgot what was in the previous messages. Consider re-reading and not pretending you're looking for balance here. Actually I'll do it for you:You: "I like the
all-arounder
theme from the herald, like
dps/support mix
[...] It can do many things, but nothing really good though."-"seems like one is connected with the other and buffing it would make it overloaded"You: "...but other classes!" (no specific examples btw)-"but
I don't think it's healthy for the game
, which is why I hold the position that I do" (as in: stop trying to overbuff "
your class
")You: "
me neither
. Thats why i hold mine(??)" (soo... "I think it's not healthy for the game, which is why I think it should be buffed" ?? )

-explainYou:

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.

Previously you've said you enjoy the "dps/support mix" and the "all-rounder" type of class. Now you say that if something is an allrounder, it should be buffed so... it's not longer an allrounder? That makes no sense in regards of what you've initially claimed about you enjoying the class and agreeing (yeaaaaa...) about classes "doing everything being unhealthy for the game". You basically admit to simply wanting to overbuff the class (spec, to be more accurate) you excelusively play so it can do everything at the same time in the optimal manner. While saying you also think it's not healthy for the game.uh...

I like the design of specific classes performing in multiple roles.But its not healthy if almost Every class is a way better dps class + has a ton of supportive things to give for the group at the same time.

But rev is perfectly fine as a dps class. And what you write about here is in general just false. Well, at least it's not any more true than it already is for rev.

Renegade is not the same as Core Revenant or Herald

Revenant is a class, which Renegade and Herald are parts of. And still all of them are doing pretty well on their own despite you pretending otherwise just so you can keep asking to overbuff whatever aspect of the build you want to play.

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LucianTheAngelic.7054

LucianTheAngelic.7054

Posted
Posted

@Sobx.1758 said:

And what exactly do you enjoy about Herald's playstyle (in comparison to rev/rng) if it's not about its performance?

I like the aspect system.
I like the all-arounder theme from the herald, like dps/support mix
(even tho full dps or full support are still bad, a mix wont be better)And i like to be an asset in groups, which means i could fill out a support role, i could fill out an dps slot, tank, simply cc a lot etc.

It can do many things, but nothing really good though.

Seems like these things are reasonably connected to each other and giving more one way or another is a good way to simply overload the spec/build, which generally is a nono.

technically, its still something that many different classes can do at the same time,... some even better.

And you think this is a good thing for the game? I don't, which is also why I hold the position I do.

me neither. Thats why i hold mine :bleep_bloop:

So you also think
it's not good for the game
, which is why... you think
your class
should be changed to be what you don't want to see in the game? I'm confused about what you've just said here. Explain?

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.Compare it with celestial stats & 3-stat combos. Celestial stats have an WAY bigger stat-amount, while still being terrible.

It's like you completely forgot what was in the previous messages. Consider re-reading and not pretending you're looking for balance here. Actually I'll do it for you:You: "I like the
all-arounder
theme from the herald, like
dps/support mix
[...] It can do many things, but nothing really good though."-"seems like one is connected with the other and buffing it would make it overloaded"You: "...but other classes!" (no specific examples btw)-"but
I don't think it's healthy for the game
, which is why I hold the position that I do" (as in: stop trying to overbuff "
your class
")You: "
me neither
. Thats why i hold mine(??)" (soo... "I think it's not healthy for the game, which is why I think it should be buffed" ?? )

-explainYou:

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.

Previously you've said you enjoy the "dps/support mix" and the "all-rounder" type of class. Now you say that if something is an allrounder, it should be buffed so... it's not longer an allrounder? That makes no sense in regards of what you've initially claimed about you enjoying the class and agreeing (yeaaaaa...) about classes "doing everything being unhealthy for the game". You basically admit to simply wanting to overbuff the class (spec, to be more accurate) you excelusively play so it can do everything at the same time in the optimal manner. While saying you also think it's not healthy for the game.uh...

I like the design of specific classes performing in multiple roles.But its not healthy if almost Every class is a way better dps class + has a ton of supportive things to give for the group at the same time.

But rev is perfectly fine as a dps class. And what you write about here is in general just false. Well, at least it's not any more true than it already is for rev.

Renegade is not the same as Core Revenant or Herald

Revenant is a class, which Renegade and Herald are parts of. And still all of them are doing pretty well on their own despite you pretending otherwise just so you can keep asking to overbuff
whatever aspect of the build you want to play
.

Is a 32k Herald benchmark on power without high burst okay? (condi is even worse on Herald btw)

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Sobx.1758

Sobx.1758

Posted
Posted

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

And what exactly do you enjoy about Herald's playstyle (in comparison to rev/rng) if it's not about its performance?

I like the aspect system.
I like the all-arounder theme from the herald, like dps/support mix
(even tho full dps or full support are still bad, a mix wont be better)And i like to be an asset in groups, which means i could fill out a support role, i could fill out an dps slot, tank, simply cc a lot etc.

It can do many things, but nothing really good though.

Seems like these things are reasonably connected to each other and giving more one way or another is a good way to simply overload the spec/build, which generally is a nono.

technically, its still something that many different classes can do at the same time,... some even better.

And you think this is a good thing for the game? I don't, which is also why I hold the position I do.

me neither. Thats why i hold mine :bleep_bloop:

So you also think
it's not good for the game
, which is why... you think
your class
should be changed to be what you don't want to see in the game? I'm confused about what you've just said here. Explain?

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.Compare it with celestial stats & 3-stat combos. Celestial stats have an WAY bigger stat-amount, while still being terrible.

It's like you completely forgot what was in the previous messages. Consider re-reading and not pretending you're looking for balance here. Actually I'll do it for you:You: "I like the
all-arounder
theme from the herald, like
dps/support mix
[...] It can do many things, but nothing really good though."-"seems like one is connected with the other and buffing it would make it overloaded"You: "...but other classes!" (no specific examples btw)-"but
I don't think it's healthy for the game
, which is why I hold the position that I do" (as in: stop trying to overbuff "
your class
")You: "
me neither
. Thats why i hold mine(??)" (soo... "I think it's not healthy for the game, which is why I think it should be buffed" ?? )

-explainYou:

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.

Previously you've said you enjoy the "dps/support mix" and the "all-rounder" type of class. Now you say that if something is an allrounder, it should be buffed so... it's not longer an allrounder? That makes no sense in regards of what you've initially claimed about you enjoying the class and agreeing (yeaaaaa...) about classes "doing everything being unhealthy for the game". You basically admit to simply wanting to overbuff the class (spec, to be more accurate) you excelusively play so it can do everything at the same time in the optimal manner. While saying you also think it's not healthy for the game.uh...

I like the design of specific classes performing in multiple roles.But its not healthy if almost Every class is a way better dps class + has a ton of supportive things to give for the group at the same time.

But rev is perfectly fine as a dps class. And what you write about here is in general just false. Well, at least it's not any more true than it already is for rev.but not all of us are when the vast majority of specs are pulling 37-43k with much, much higher burst than Herald, while also offering more than Herald

Pretty sure that's wrong (based on available online resources, I won't be trying to pretend here that I've made my own benchmark for everything, duh :p ), do you have a list of those specs/builds that do 37k+++ dps?

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LucianTheAngelic.7054

LucianTheAngelic.7054

Posted
Posted

@Sobx.1758 said:

And what exactly do you enjoy about Herald's playstyle (in comparison to rev/rng) if it's not about its performance?

I like the aspect system.
I like the all-arounder theme from the herald, like dps/support mix
(even tho full dps or full support are still bad, a mix wont be better)And i like to be an asset in groups, which means i could fill out a support role, i could fill out an dps slot, tank, simply cc a lot etc.

It can do many things, but nothing really good though.

Seems like these things are reasonably connected to each other and giving more one way or another is a good way to simply overload the spec/build, which generally is a nono.

technically, its still something that many different classes can do at the same time,... some even better.

And you think this is a good thing for the game? I don't, which is also why I hold the position I do.

me neither. Thats why i hold mine :bleep_bloop:

So you also think
it's not good for the game
, which is why... you think
your class
should be changed to be what you don't want to see in the game? I'm confused about what you've just said here. Explain?

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.Compare it with celestial stats & 3-stat combos. Celestial stats have an WAY bigger stat-amount, while still being terrible.

It's like you completely forgot what was in the previous messages. Consider re-reading and not pretending you're looking for balance here. Actually I'll do it for you:You: "I like the
all-arounder
theme from the herald, like
dps/support mix
[...] It can do many things, but nothing really good though."-"seems like one is connected with the other and buffing it would make it overloaded"You: "...but other classes!" (no specific examples btw)-"but
I don't think it's healthy for the game
, which is why I hold the position that I do" (as in: stop trying to overbuff "
your class
")You: "
me neither
. Thats why i hold mine(??)" (soo... "I think it's not healthy for the game, which is why I think it should be buffed" ?? )

-explainYou:

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.

Previously you've said you enjoy the "dps/support mix" and the "all-rounder" type of class. Now you say that if something is an allrounder, it should be buffed so... it's not longer an allrounder? That makes no sense in regards of what you've initially claimed about you enjoying the class and agreeing (yeaaaaa...) about classes "doing everything being unhealthy for the game". You basically admit to simply wanting to overbuff the class (spec, to be more accurate) you excelusively play so it can do everything at the same time in the optimal manner. While saying you also think it's not healthy for the game.uh...

I like the design of specific classes performing in multiple roles.But its not healthy if almost Every class is a way better dps class + has a ton of supportive things to give for the group at the same time.

But rev is perfectly fine as a dps class. And what you write about here is in general just false. Well, at least it's not any more true than it already is for rev.but not all of us are when the vast majority of specs are pulling 37-43k with much, much higher burst than Herald, while also offering more than Herald

Pretty sure that's wrong (based on available online resources, I won't be trying to pretend here that I've made my own benchmark for everything, duh :p ), do you have a list of those specs/builds that do 37k+++ dps?

I wouldn't expect you to be able to bench them all don't worry, that would be absurd. Anyway here: https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/. Condi chrono and Mirage are also not listed because confusion doesn't proc on golems, but are worth mentioning as well since they're extremely strong and meta on several encounters

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Obtena.7952

Obtena.7952

Posted
Posted

@Virdo.1540 said:

And what exactly do you enjoy about Herald's playstyle (in comparison to rev/rng) if it's not about its performance?

I like the aspect system.
I like the all-arounder theme from the herald, like dps/support mix
(even tho full dps or full support are still bad, a mix wont be better)And i like to be an asset in groups, which means i could fill out a support role, i could fill out an dps slot, tank, simply cc a lot etc.

It can do many things, but nothing really good though.

Seems like these things are reasonably connected to each other and giving more one way or another is a good way to simply overload the spec/build, which generally is a nono.

technically, its still something that many different classes can do at the same time,... some even better.

And you think this is a good thing for the game? I don't, which is also why I hold the position I do.

me neither. Thats why i hold mine :bleep_bloop:

So you also think
it's not good for the game
, which is why... you think
your class
should be changed to be what you don't want to see in the game? I'm confused about what you've just said here. Explain?

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

That doesn't make sense. Just because you like that idea doesn't mean it's the way it should be. Things that should be are based on need, not want and this game isn't designed so you need classes defined in this way. Classes are designed around their theme, not a specific role. This is a completely artificial 'need' you've imposed here to justify how you want the game to work.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.

No, the fact that some combination of things doesn't excel at both things is NOT an indication of needing a buff. Literally anything you want to get can be justified because of 'not optimal' combinations ... so clearly that reasoning is flawed.

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Sobx.1758

Sobx.1758

Posted
Posted

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

And what exactly do you enjoy about Herald's playstyle (in comparison to rev/rng) if it's not about its performance?

I like the aspect system.
I like the all-arounder theme from the herald, like dps/support mix
(even tho full dps or full support are still bad, a mix wont be better)And i like to be an asset in groups, which means i could fill out a support role, i could fill out an dps slot, tank, simply cc a lot etc.

It can do many things, but nothing really good though.

Seems like these things are reasonably connected to each other and giving more one way or another is a good way to simply overload the spec/build, which generally is a nono.

technically, its still something that many different classes can do at the same time,... some even better.

And you think this is a good thing for the game? I don't, which is also why I hold the position I do.

me neither. Thats why i hold mine :bleep_bloop:

So you also think
it's not good for the game
, which is why... you think
your class
should be changed to be what you don't want to see in the game? I'm confused about what you've just said here. Explain?

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.Compare it with celestial stats & 3-stat combos. Celestial stats have an WAY bigger stat-amount, while still being terrible.

It's like you completely forgot what was in the previous messages. Consider re-reading and not pretending you're looking for balance here. Actually I'll do it for you:You: "I like the
all-arounder
theme from the herald, like
dps/support mix
[...] It can do many things, but nothing really good though."-"seems like one is connected with the other and buffing it would make it overloaded"You: "...but other classes!" (no specific examples btw)-"but
I don't think it's healthy for the game
, which is why I hold the position that I do" (as in: stop trying to overbuff "
your class
")You: "
me neither
. Thats why i hold mine(??)" (soo... "I think it's not healthy for the game, which is why I think it should be buffed" ?? )

-explainYou:

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.

Previously you've said you enjoy the "dps/support mix" and the "all-rounder" type of class. Now you say that if something is an allrounder, it should be buffed so... it's not longer an allrounder? That makes no sense in regards of what you've initially claimed about you enjoying the class and agreeing (yeaaaaa...) about classes "doing everything being unhealthy for the game". You basically admit to simply wanting to overbuff the class (spec, to be more accurate) you excelusively play so it can do everything at the same time in the optimal manner. While saying you also think it's not healthy for the game.uh...

I like the design of specific classes performing in multiple roles.But its not healthy if almost Every class is a way better dps class + has a ton of supportive things to give for the group at the same time.

But rev is perfectly fine as a dps class. And what you write about here is in general just false. Well, at least it's not any more true than it already is for rev.but not all of us are when the vast majority of specs are pulling 37-43k with much, much higher burst than Herald, while also offering more than Herald

Pretty sure that's wrong (based on available online resources, I won't be trying to pretend here that I've made my own benchmark for everything, duh :p ), do you have a list of those specs/builds that do 37k+++ dps?

I wouldn't expect you to be able to bench them all don't worry, that would be absurd. Anyway here:
. Condi chrono and Mirage are also not listed because confusion doesn't proc on golems, but are worth mentioning as well since they're extremely strong and meta on several encounters

Yup, that's also what I'm mostly basing it on and that makes what you said before false.

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LucianTheAngelic.7054

LucianTheAngelic.7054

Posted
Posted

@Sobx.1758 said:

And what exactly do you enjoy about Herald's playstyle (in comparison to rev/rng) if it's not about its performance?

I like the aspect system.
I like the all-arounder theme from the herald, like dps/support mix
(even tho full dps or full support are still bad, a mix wont be better)And i like to be an asset in groups, which means i could fill out a support role, i could fill out an dps slot, tank, simply cc a lot etc.

It can do many things, but nothing really good though.

Seems like these things are reasonably connected to each other and giving more one way or another is a good way to simply overload the spec/build, which generally is a nono.

technically, its still something that many different classes can do at the same time,... some even better.

And you think this is a good thing for the game? I don't, which is also why I hold the position I do.

me neither. Thats why i hold mine :bleep_bloop:

So you also think
it's not good for the game
, which is why... you think
your class
should be changed to be what you don't want to see in the game? I'm confused about what you've just said here. Explain?

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.Compare it with celestial stats & 3-stat combos. Celestial stats have an WAY bigger stat-amount, while still being terrible.

It's like you completely forgot what was in the previous messages. Consider re-reading and not pretending you're looking for balance here. Actually I'll do it for you:You: "I like the
all-arounder
theme from the herald, like
dps/support mix
[...] It can do many things, but nothing really good though."-"seems like one is connected with the other and buffing it would make it overloaded"You: "...but other classes!" (no specific examples btw)-"but
I don't think it's healthy for the game
, which is why I hold the position that I do" (as in: stop trying to overbuff "
your class
")You: "
me neither
. Thats why i hold mine(??)" (soo... "I think it's not healthy for the game, which is why I think it should be buffed" ?? )

-explainYou:

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.

Previously you've said you enjoy the "dps/support mix" and the "all-rounder" type of class. Now you say that if something is an allrounder, it should be buffed so... it's not longer an allrounder? That makes no sense in regards of what you've initially claimed about you enjoying the class and agreeing (yeaaaaa...) about classes "doing everything being unhealthy for the game". You basically admit to simply wanting to overbuff the class (spec, to be more accurate) you excelusively play so it can do everything at the same time in the optimal manner. While saying you also think it's not healthy for the game.uh...

I like the design of specific classes performing in multiple roles.But its not healthy if almost Every class is a way better dps class + has a ton of supportive things to give for the group at the same time.

But rev is perfectly fine as a dps class. And what you write about here is in general just false. Well, at least it's not any more true than it already is for rev.but not all of us are when the vast majority of specs are pulling 37-43k with much, much higher burst than Herald, while also offering more than Herald

Pretty sure that's wrong (based on available online resources, I won't be trying to pretend here that I've made my own benchmark for everything, duh :p ), do you have a list of those specs/builds that do 37k+++ dps?

I wouldn't expect you to be able to bench them all don't worry, that would be absurd. Anyway here:
. Condi chrono and Mirage are also not listed because confusion doesn't proc on golems, but are worth mentioning as well since they're extremely strong and meta on several encounters

Yup, that's also what I'm mostly basing it on and that makes what you said before false.

How so? please explain

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Sobx.1758

Sobx.1758

Posted
Posted

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

And what exactly do you enjoy about Herald's playstyle (in comparison to rev/rng) if it's not about its performance?

I like the aspect system.
I like the all-arounder theme from the herald, like dps/support mix
(even tho full dps or full support are still bad, a mix wont be better)And i like to be an asset in groups, which means i could fill out a support role, i could fill out an dps slot, tank, simply cc a lot etc.

It can do many things, but nothing really good though.

Seems like these things are reasonably connected to each other and giving more one way or another is a good way to simply overload the spec/build, which generally is a nono.

technically, its still something that many different classes can do at the same time,... some even better.

And you think this is a good thing for the game? I don't, which is also why I hold the position I do.

me neither. Thats why i hold mine :bleep_bloop:

So you also think
it's not good for the game
, which is why... you think
your class
should be changed to be what you don't want to see in the game? I'm confused about what you've just said here. Explain?

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.Compare it with celestial stats & 3-stat combos. Celestial stats have an WAY bigger stat-amount, while still being terrible.

It's like you completely forgot what was in the previous messages. Consider re-reading and not pretending you're looking for balance here. Actually I'll do it for you:You: "I like the
all-arounder
theme from the herald, like
dps/support mix
[...] It can do many things, but nothing really good though."-"seems like one is connected with the other and buffing it would make it overloaded"You: "...but other classes!" (no specific examples btw)-"but
I don't think it's healthy for the game
, which is why I hold the position that I do" (as in: stop trying to overbuff "
your class
")You: "
me neither
. Thats why i hold mine(??)" (soo... "I think it's not healthy for the game, which is why I think it should be buffed" ?? )

-explainYou:

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.

Previously you've said you enjoy the "dps/support mix" and the "all-rounder" type of class. Now you say that if something is an allrounder, it should be buffed so... it's not longer an allrounder? That makes no sense in regards of what you've initially claimed about you enjoying the class and agreeing (yeaaaaa...) about classes "doing everything being unhealthy for the game". You basically admit to simply wanting to overbuff the class (spec, to be more accurate) you excelusively play so it can do everything at the same time in the optimal manner. While saying you also think it's not healthy for the game.uh...

I like the design of specific classes performing in multiple roles.But its not healthy if almost Every class is a way better dps class + has a ton of supportive things to give for the group at the same time.

But rev is perfectly fine as a dps class. And what you write about here is in general just false. Well, at least it's not any more true than it already is for rev.but not all of us are when the vast majority of specs are pulling 37-43k with much, much higher burst than Herald, while also offering more than Herald

Pretty sure that's wrong (based on available online resources, I won't be trying to pretend here that I've made my own benchmark for everything, duh :p ), do you have a list of those specs/builds that do 37k+++ dps?

I wouldn't expect you to be able to bench them all don't worry, that would be absurd. Anyway here:
. Condi chrono and Mirage are also not listed because confusion doesn't proc on golems, but are worth mentioning as well since they're extremely strong and meta on several encounters

Yup, that's also what I'm mostly basing it on and that makes what you said before false.

How so? please explain

This is what you wrote (and what I was asking for):"but not all of us are when the vast majority of specs are pulling 37-43k with much, much higher burst than Herald, while also offering more than Herald"

Just, I don't know... count it for yourself? :D It looks to me like it was a claim made specifically to show rev as an outlier and an underperforming class (to somehow bait buffs, why else), but it's not. And that claim is false.

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Virdo.1540

Virdo.1540

Posted
Posted

@Obtena.7952 said:

And what exactly do you enjoy about Herald's playstyle (in comparison to rev/rng) if it's not about its performance?

I like the aspect system.
I like the all-arounder theme from the herald, like dps/support mix
(even tho full dps or full support are still bad, a mix wont be better)And i like to be an asset in groups, which means i could fill out a support role, i could fill out an dps slot, tank, simply cc a lot etc.

It can do many things, but nothing really good though.

Seems like these things are reasonably connected to each other and giving more one way or another is a good way to simply overload the spec/build, which generally is a nono.

technically, its still something that many different classes can do at the same time,... some even better.

And you think this is a good thing for the game? I don't, which is also why I hold the position I do.

me neither. Thats why i hold mine :bleep_bloop:

So you also think
it's not good for the game
, which is why... you think
your class
should be changed to be what you don't want to see in the game? I'm confused about what you've just said here. Explain?

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.

No, the fact that some combination of things doesn't excel at both things is NOT an indication of needing a buff. Literally anything you want to get can be justified because of 'not optimal' combinations ... so clearly that reasoning is flawed.

The fact that almost all professions have an build ,that has extreme high damage AND epic support at the same time, while they excel in at least one of them, is a reason for a buff. A herald Is a "mix" ,like everyone else in the current game state, just an underwhelming compared to the others.

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Virdo.1540

Virdo.1540

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Posted

@Sobx.1758 said:

And what exactly do you enjoy about Herald's playstyle (in comparison to rev/rng) if it's not about its performance?

I like the aspect system.
I like the all-arounder theme from the herald, like dps/support mix
(even tho full dps or full support are still bad, a mix wont be better)And i like to be an asset in groups, which means i could fill out a support role, i could fill out an dps slot, tank, simply cc a lot etc.

It can do many things, but nothing really good though.

Seems like these things are reasonably connected to each other and giving more one way or another is a good way to simply overload the spec/build, which generally is a nono.

technically, its still something that many different classes can do at the same time,... some even better.

And you think this is a good thing for the game? I don't, which is also why I hold the position I do.

me neither. Thats why i hold mine :bleep_bloop:

So you also think
it's not good for the game
, which is why... you think
your class
should be changed to be what you don't want to see in the game? I'm confused about what you've just said here. Explain?

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.Compare it with celestial stats & 3-stat combos. Celestial stats have an WAY bigger stat-amount, while still being terrible.

It's like you completely forgot what was in the previous messages. Consider re-reading and not pretending you're looking for balance here. Actually I'll do it for you:You: "I like the
all-arounder
theme from the herald, like
dps/support mix
[...] It can do many things, but nothing really good though."-"seems like one is connected with the other and buffing it would make it overloaded"You: "...but other classes!" (no specific examples btw)-"but
I don't think it's healthy for the game
, which is why I hold the position that I do" (as in: stop trying to overbuff "
your class
")You: "
me neither
. Thats why i hold mine(??)" (soo... "I think it's not healthy for the game, which is why I think it should be buffed" ?? )

-explainYou:

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.

Previously you've said you enjoy the "dps/support mix" and the "all-rounder" type of class. Now you say that if something is an allrounder, it should be buffed so... it's not longer an allrounder? That makes no sense in regards of what you've initially claimed about you enjoying the class and agreeing (yeaaaaa...) about classes "doing everything being unhealthy for the game". You basically admit to simply wanting to overbuff the class (spec, to be more accurate) you excelusively play so it can do everything at the same time in the optimal manner. While saying you also think it's not healthy for the game.uh...

I like the design of specific classes performing in multiple roles.But its not healthy if almost Every class is a way better dps class + has a ton of supportive things to give for the group at the same time.

But rev is perfectly fine as a dps class. And what you write about here is in general just false. Well, at least it's not any more true than it already is for rev.but not all of us are when the vast majority of specs are pulling 37-43k with much, much higher burst than Herald, while also offering more than Herald

Pretty sure that's wrong (based on available online resources, I won't be trying to pretend here that I've made my own benchmark for everything, duh :p ), do you have a list of those specs/builds that do 37k+++ dps?

I wouldn't expect you to be able to bench them all don't worry, that would be absurd. Anyway here:
. Condi chrono and Mirage are also not listed because confusion doesn't proc on golems, but are worth mentioning as well since they're extremely strong and meta on several encounters

Yup, that's also what I'm mostly basing it on and that makes what you said before false.

How so? please explain

"
but not all of us are when the vast majority of specs are pulling 37-43k with much, much higher burst than Herald, while also offering more than Herald
"

Yea thats right. The dmg is incredibly high from many classes (while still rising with every patch) + having an impact on the group through specific buffs ,like Warrior Banners.

So damage is even higher of specific classes than the "benchmark" really says.

While at herald ,buffs are taken into account that are worse than it is named in benchmark... + it has literally 0 burst to their already low damage.

Even worse with core rev.

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LucianTheAngelic.7054

LucianTheAngelic.7054

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@Sobx.1758 said:

And what exactly do you enjoy about Herald's playstyle (in comparison to rev/rng) if it's not about its performance?

I like the aspect system.
I like the all-arounder theme from the herald, like dps/support mix
(even tho full dps or full support are still bad, a mix wont be better)And i like to be an asset in groups, which means i could fill out a support role, i could fill out an dps slot, tank, simply cc a lot etc.

It can do many things, but nothing really good though.

Seems like these things are reasonably connected to each other and giving more one way or another is a good way to simply overload the spec/build, which generally is a nono.

technically, its still something that many different classes can do at the same time,... some even better.

And you think this is a good thing for the game? I don't, which is also why I hold the position I do.

me neither. Thats why i hold mine :bleep_bloop:

So you also think
it's not good for the game
, which is why... you think
your class
should be changed to be what you don't want to see in the game? I'm confused about what you've just said here. Explain?

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.Compare it with celestial stats & 3-stat combos. Celestial stats have an WAY bigger stat-amount, while still being terrible.

It's like you completely forgot what was in the previous messages. Consider re-reading and not pretending you're looking for balance here. Actually I'll do it for you:You: "I like the
all-arounder
theme from the herald, like
dps/support mix
[...] It can do many things, but nothing really good though."-"seems like one is connected with the other and buffing it would make it overloaded"You: "...but other classes!" (no specific examples btw)-"but
I don't think it's healthy for the game
, which is why I hold the position that I do" (as in: stop trying to overbuff "
your class
")You: "
me neither
. Thats why i hold mine(??)" (soo... "I think it's not healthy for the game, which is why I think it should be buffed" ?? )

-explainYou:

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.

Previously you've said you enjoy the "dps/support mix" and the "all-rounder" type of class. Now you say that if something is an allrounder, it should be buffed so... it's not longer an allrounder? That makes no sense in regards of what you've initially claimed about you enjoying the class and agreeing (yeaaaaa...) about classes "doing everything being unhealthy for the game". You basically admit to simply wanting to overbuff the class (spec, to be more accurate) you excelusively play so it can do everything at the same time in the optimal manner. While saying you also think it's not healthy for the game.uh...

I like the design of specific classes performing in multiple roles.But its not healthy if almost Every class is a way better dps class + has a ton of supportive things to give for the group at the same time.

But rev is perfectly fine as a dps class. And what you write about here is in general just false. Well, at least it's not any more true than it already is for rev.but not all of us are when the vast majority of specs are pulling 37-43k with much, much higher burst than Herald, while also offering more than Herald

Pretty sure that's wrong (based on available online resources, I won't be trying to pretend here that I've made my own benchmark for everything, duh :p ), do you have a list of those specs/builds that do 37k+++ dps?

I wouldn't expect you to be able to bench them all don't worry, that would be absurd. Anyway here:
. Condi chrono and Mirage are also not listed because confusion doesn't proc on golems, but are worth mentioning as well since they're extremely strong and meta on several encounters

Yup, that's also what I'm mostly basing it on and that makes what you said before false.

How so? please explain

This is what you wrote (and what I was asking for):"
but not all of us are when the vast majority of specs are pulling 37-43k with much, much higher burst than Herald, while also offering more than Herald
"

Just, I don't know... count it for yourself? :D It looks to me like it was a claim made specifically to show rev as an outlier and an underperforming class (to somehow bait buffs, why else), but it's not. And that claim is false.

And what exactly do you enjoy about Herald's playstyle (in comparison to rev/rng) if it's not about its performance?

I like the aspect system.
I like the all-arounder theme from the herald, like dps/support mix
(even tho full dps or full support are still bad, a mix wont be better)And i like to be an asset in groups, which means i could fill out a support role, i could fill out an dps slot, tank, simply cc a lot etc.

It can do many things, but nothing really good though.

Seems like these things are reasonably connected to each other and giving more one way or another is a good way to simply overload the spec/build, which generally is a nono.

technically, its still something that many different classes can do at the same time,... some even better.

And you think this is a good thing for the game? I don't, which is also why I hold the position I do.

me neither. Thats why i hold mine :bleep_bloop:

So you also think
it's not good for the game
, which is why... you think
your class
should be changed to be what you don't want to see in the game? I'm confused about what you've just said here. Explain?

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.Compare it with celestial stats & 3-stat combos. Celestial stats have an WAY bigger stat-amount, while still being terrible.

It's like you completely forgot what was in the previous messages. Consider re-reading and not pretending you're looking for balance here. Actually I'll do it for you:You: "I like the
all-arounder
theme from the herald, like
dps/support mix
[...] It can do many things, but nothing really good though."-"seems like one is connected with the other and buffing it would make it overloaded"You: "...but other classes!" (no specific examples btw)-"but
I don't think it's healthy for the game
, which is why I hold the position that I do" (as in: stop trying to overbuff "
your class
")You: "
me neither
. Thats why i hold mine(??)" (soo... "I think it's not healthy for the game, which is why I think it should be buffed" ?? )

-explainYou:

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.

Previously you've said you enjoy the "dps/support mix" and the "all-rounder" type of class. Now you say that if something is an allrounder, it should be buffed so... it's not longer an allrounder? That makes no sense in regards of what you've initially claimed about you enjoying the class and agreeing (yeaaaaa...) about classes "doing everything being unhealthy for the game". You basically admit to simply wanting to overbuff the class (spec, to be more accurate) you excelusively play so it can do everything at the same time in the optimal manner. While saying you also think it's not healthy for the game.uh...

I like the design of specific classes performing in multiple roles.But its not healthy if almost Every class is a way better dps class + has a ton of supportive things to give for the group at the same time.

But rev is perfectly fine as a dps class. And what you write about here is in general just false. Well, at least it's not any more true than it already is for rev.but not all of us are when the vast majority of specs are pulling 37-43k with much, much higher burst than Herald, while also offering more than Herald

Pretty sure that's wrong (based on available online resources, I won't be trying to pretend here that I've made my own benchmark for everything, duh :p ), do you have a list of those specs/builds that do 37k+++ dps?

I wouldn't expect you to be able to bench them all don't worry, that would be absurd. Anyway here:
. Condi chrono and Mirage are also not listed because confusion doesn't proc on golems, but are worth mentioning as well since they're extremely strong and meta on several encounters

Yup, that's also what I'm mostly basing it on and that makes what you said before false.

How so? please explain

This is what you wrote (and what I was asking for):"
but not all of us are when the vast majority of specs are pulling 37-43k with much, much higher burst than Herald, while also offering more than Herald
"

Just, I don't know... count it for yourself? :D It looks to me like it was a claim made specifically to show rev as an outlier and an underperforming class (to somehow bait buffs, why else), but it's not. And that claim is false.

Let me clarify. When I say "Specs" I don't mean "All specs including Core" nor do I mean "All traitline specializations." I very specifically mean "Elite specs." Why do I specifically mean this? Well, core has been largely irrelevant for 6 years since HoT and became even more irrelevant after PoF. The fact is, Core doesn't offer enough for most professions to be even considered since most of them don't offer enough dps or support to be relevant when compared with their e-specs. A strong Core class is an outlier, and the very design of Elite Specs prevents Core from being strong without making the Elite overpowered. Elites specialize into damage or other roles, providing things that the core class just doesn't. I don't think an argument that "Core specs are relevant" or "Core specs should be factored in" is a strong argument, which is why I very intentionally ignore them, just as they've been very largely ignored in PvE by Anet for 6 years. Apologies for being imprecise with my initial claim of "specs" that's on me. However, my statement is still true given the meaning I was intending. Let's analyze the remaining, actually relevant, 18 specs:

Elite Specs with DPS 37k or higher & Meta Relevant Supports: Mesmer:Chronomancer: Power 43kChronomancer: 10 man boons & STM Power BoonsCondi Chrono & Mirage: Both extremely strong on some bosses and meta relevant, just don't have benchmarks given how confusion worksGuardianDragonhunter: 40kCore: 38k. One of the only relevant Core specs. I still stand by the fact that Core is generally irrelevant for most professionsFirebrand: Condi QuicknessElementalist:Weaver: Power & Condi 39.5k & 38.3kTempest: Power & Condi 38kThiefDeadeye: 39kRangerDruid: The defacto meta support since HoT, 6 years and counting.Soulbeast: Power 38.5kRevenantRenegade: Condi 38k (actually higher with allies)Renegade: AlacrigadeEngineerHolosmith: Power 38kWarriorBerserker: Power & Condi 37kBerserker: Banner Warriors, Condi and Power

Honorable Mentions that still beat Herald:(Not including duplicate build variants for E-specs already mentioned if they have additonal, better-than-Herald builds)GuardianFirebrand: Condition 36.7k (could easily round this to 37k, but i'll be nice <3)ThiefDaredevil: Power 35kNecromancerReaper: Power 34.3kEngineerScrapper: Condi 33k h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKqFFpspiK4

Herald Power 32K (full dps, no support)

Below Herald:WarriorSpellbreaker: Power 30kNecromancerScourge: Condi 28k

So to analyze this (again not including Core specs since they're generally irrelevant), we have 12/18 Elite specs able to hit 37k DPS or higher or play a Meta support role (i.e. Druid). Looking at the "Honorable Mentions" Category brings the total up to 15/18 Elite specs able to outdps Herald. In terms of individual builds listed above that beat Herald in terms of DPS/Meta Relevance you're looking at 26 builds (many more I intentionally unlisted as well in order to avoid clutter). Herald only outclasses two Elite Specializations in terms of damage (both of which I also feel are underperforming and in need of a re-evaluation, as well as Scrapper & Reaper since they're on the lower end too). I'll retract the "vast" from my statement and downgrade it to "'the majority' are able to reach 37k or higher." This doesn't change that the "vast majority" are able to outdps Herald, however.

The fact that 15/18 elite specializations are able to outdps or outsupport Herald (12 of them by a veryyy large margin) is a major balance issue. It's not that Herald isn't playable; it is. It's not that Spellbreaker isn't playable; it is as well. And it's not that Scourge isn't playable; it's certainly more relevant than either of those. The issue is and continues to be that Herald is quite literally very close to the bottom of the barrel when it comes to elite specializations in PvE and has resided there since pretty much its inception in Heart of Thorns. For there to be better balance in PvE, the Elite Specializations need to be better able to compete with each other. Currently some of them do, but some of them are still very far behind.

As a disclaimer, this isn't a "You just want to make your chosen class better" as you keep telling Virdo. I've always advocated for buffs to the underperforming E-specs, especially Reaper, Scrapper, and Spellbreaker. These are not even specializations that I play or enjoy.

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Obtena.7952

Obtena.7952

Posted
Posted

@Virdo.1540 said:

And what exactly do you enjoy about Herald's playstyle (in comparison to rev/rng) if it's not about its performance?

I like the aspect system.
I like the all-arounder theme from the herald, like dps/support mix
(even tho full dps or full support are still bad, a mix wont be better)And i like to be an asset in groups, which means i could fill out a support role, i could fill out an dps slot, tank, simply cc a lot etc.

It can do many things, but nothing really good though.

Seems like these things are reasonably connected to each other and giving more one way or another is a good way to simply overload the spec/build, which generally is a nono.

technically, its still something that many different classes can do at the same time,... some even better.

And you think this is a good thing for the game? I don't, which is also why I hold the position I do.

me neither. Thats why i hold mine :bleep_bloop:

So you also think
it's not good for the game
, which is why... you think
your class
should be changed to be what you don't want to see in the game? I'm confused about what you've just said here. Explain?

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.

No, the fact that some combination of things doesn't excel at both things is NOT an indication of needing a buff. Literally anything you want to get can be justified because of 'not optimal' combinations ... so clearly that reasoning is flawed.

The fact that almost all professions have an build ,that has extreme high damage AND epic support at the same time, while they excel in at least one of them, is a reason for a buff. A herald Is a "mix" ,like everyone else in the current game state, just an underwhelming compared to the others.

That doesn't make sense. What other classes have is
irrelevant
in any consideration of what another should have. If you want what another class has, whatever that thing is ... then play that class. The theme of a class stands on it's own and has the given toolset independent of others that exist in the game.

"underwhelming compared to others" is just not a reason to buff something ... because that's exactly how you get power creep as there will ALWAYS be someone at the bottom of performance. That reason just isn't valid.

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Sobx.1758

Sobx.1758

Posted
Posted

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

And what exactly do you enjoy about Herald's playstyle (in comparison to rev/rng) if it's not about its performance?

I like the aspect system.
I like the all-arounder theme from the herald, like dps/support mix
(even tho full dps or full support are still bad, a mix wont be better)And i like to be an asset in groups, which means i could fill out a support role, i could fill out an dps slot, tank, simply cc a lot etc.

It can do many things, but nothing really good though.

Seems like these things are reasonably connected to each other and giving more one way or another is a good way to simply overload the spec/build, which generally is a nono.

technically, its still something that many different classes can do at the same time,... some even better.

And you think this is a good thing for the game? I don't, which is also why I hold the position I do.

me neither. Thats why i hold mine :bleep_bloop:

So you also think
it's not good for the game
, which is why... you think
your class
should be changed to be what you don't want to see in the game? I'm confused about what you've just said here. Explain?

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.Compare it with celestial stats & 3-stat combos. Celestial stats have an WAY bigger stat-amount, while still being terrible.

It's like you completely forgot what was in the previous messages. Consider re-reading and not pretending you're looking for balance here. Actually I'll do it for you:You: "I like the
all-arounder
theme from the herald, like
dps/support mix
[...] It can do many things, but nothing really good though."-"seems like one is connected with the other and buffing it would make it overloaded"You: "...but other classes!" (no specific examples btw)-"but
I don't think it's healthy for the game
, which is why I hold the position that I do" (as in: stop trying to overbuff "
your class
")You: "
me neither
. Thats why i hold mine(??)" (soo... "I think it's not healthy for the game, which is why I think it should be buffed" ?? )

-explainYou:

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.

Previously you've said you enjoy the "dps/support mix" and the "all-rounder" type of class. Now you say that if something is an allrounder, it should be buffed so... it's not longer an allrounder? That makes no sense in regards of what you've initially claimed about you enjoying the class and agreeing (yeaaaaa...) about classes "doing everything being unhealthy for the game". You basically admit to simply wanting to overbuff the class (spec, to be more accurate) you excelusively play so it can do everything at the same time in the optimal manner. While saying you also think it's not healthy for the game.uh...

I like the design of specific classes performing in multiple roles.But its not healthy if almost Every class is a way better dps class + has a ton of supportive things to give for the group at the same time.

But rev is perfectly fine as a dps class. And what you write about here is in general just false. Well, at least it's not any more true than it already is for rev.but not all of us are when the vast majority of specs are pulling 37-43k with much, much higher burst than Herald, while also offering more than Herald

Pretty sure that's wrong (based on available online resources, I won't be trying to pretend here that I've made my own benchmark for everything, duh :p ), do you have a list of those specs/builds that do 37k+++ dps?

I wouldn't expect you to be able to bench them all don't worry, that would be absurd. Anyway here:
. Condi chrono and Mirage are also not listed because confusion doesn't proc on golems, but are worth mentioning as well since they're extremely strong and meta on several encounters

Yup, that's also what I'm mostly basing it on and that makes what you said before false.

How so? please explain

This is what you wrote (and what I was asking for):"
but not all of us are when the vast majority of specs are pulling 37-43k with much, much higher burst than Herald, while also offering more than Herald
"

Just, I don't know... count it for yourself? :D It looks to me like it was a claim made specifically to show rev as an outlier and an underperforming class (to somehow bait buffs, why else), but it's not. And that claim is false.

And what exactly do you enjoy about Herald's playstyle (in comparison to rev/rng) if it's not about its performance?

I like the aspect system.
I like the all-arounder theme from the herald, like dps/support mix
(even tho full dps or full support are still bad, a mix wont be better)And i like to be an asset in groups, which means i could fill out a support role, i could fill out an dps slot, tank, simply cc a lot etc.

It can do many things, but nothing really good though.

Seems like these things are reasonably connected to each other and giving more one way or another is a good way to simply overload the spec/build, which generally is a nono.

technically, its still something that many different classes can do at the same time,... some even better.

And you think this is a good thing for the game? I don't, which is also why I hold the position I do.

me neither. Thats why i hold mine :bleep_bloop:

So you also think
it's not good for the game
, which is why... you think
your class
should be changed to be what you don't want to see in the game? I'm confused about what you've just said here. Explain?

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.Compare it with celestial stats & 3-stat combos. Celestial stats have an WAY bigger stat-amount, while still being terrible.

It's like you completely forgot what was in the previous messages. Consider re-reading and not pretending you're looking for balance here. Actually I'll do it for you:You: "I like the
all-arounder
theme from the herald, like
dps/support mix
[...] It can do many things, but nothing really good though."-"seems like one is connected with the other and buffing it would make it overloaded"You: "...but other classes!" (no specific examples btw)-"but
I don't think it's healthy for the game
, which is why I hold the position that I do" (as in: stop trying to overbuff "
your class
")You: "
me neither
. Thats why i hold mine(??)" (soo... "I think it's not healthy for the game, which is why I think it should be buffed" ?? )

-explainYou:

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.

Previously you've said you enjoy the "dps/support mix" and the "all-rounder" type of class. Now you say that if something is an allrounder, it should be buffed so... it's not longer an allrounder? That makes no sense in regards of what you've initially claimed about you enjoying the class and agreeing (yeaaaaa...) about classes "doing everything being unhealthy for the game". You basically admit to simply wanting to overbuff the class (spec, to be more accurate) you excelusively play so it can do everything at the same time in the optimal manner. While saying you also think it's not healthy for the game.uh...

I like the design of specific classes performing in multiple roles.But its not healthy if almost Every class is a way better dps class + has a ton of supportive things to give for the group at the same time.

But rev is perfectly fine as a dps class. And what you write about here is in general just false. Well, at least it's not any more true than it already is for rev.but not all of us are when the vast majority of specs are pulling 37-43k with much, much higher burst than Herald, while also offering more than Herald

Pretty sure that's wrong (based on available online resources, I won't be trying to pretend here that I've made my own benchmark for everything, duh :p ), do you have a list of those specs/builds that do 37k+++ dps?

I wouldn't expect you to be able to bench them all don't worry, that would be absurd. Anyway here:
. Condi chrono and Mirage are also not listed because confusion doesn't proc on golems, but are worth mentioning as well since they're extremely strong and meta on several encounters

Yup, that's also what I'm mostly basing it on and that makes what you said before false.

How so? please explain

This is what you wrote (and what I was asking for):"
but not all of us are when the vast majority of specs are pulling 37-43k with much, much higher burst than Herald, while also offering more than Herald
"

Just, I don't know... count it for yourself? :D It looks to me like it was a claim made specifically to show rev as an outlier and an underperforming class (to somehow bait buffs, why else), but it's not. And that claim is false.

Let me clarify. When I say "Specs" I don't mean "All specs including Core" nor do I mean "All traitline specializations." I very specifically mean "Elite specs." Why do I specifically mean this? Well, core has been largely irrelevant for 6 years since HoT and became even more irrelevant after PoF. The fact is, Core doesn't offer enough for most professions to be even considered since most of them don't offer enough dps or support to be relevant when compared with their e-specs. A strong Core class is an outlier, and the very design of Elite Specs prevents Core from being strong without making the Elite overpowered. Elites specialize into damage or other roles, providing things that the core class just doesn't. I don't think an argument that "Core specs are relevant" or "Core specs should be factored in" is a strong argument, which is why I very intentionally ignore them, just as they've been very largely ignored in PvE by Anet for 6 years. Apologies for being imprecise with my initial claim of "specs" that's on me. However, my statement is still true given the meaning I was intending.

Maybe, but then again I was commenting on what you said, not on what you've "intended to say despite saying something else", because I have no way to determine your intentions before you actually write specifically what you think and as such I said your initial claim was false because... it was/is. Hopefully that's understandable.

Let's analyze the remaining, actually relevant, 18 specs:

[...]

So to analyze this (again not including Core specs since they're generally irrelevant), we have 12/18 Elite specs able to hit 37k DPS or higher or play a Meta support role (i.e. Druid). Looking at the "Honorable Mentions" Category brings the total up to 15/18 Elite specs able to outdps Herald. In terms of individual builds listed above that beat Herald in terms of DPS/Meta Relevance you're looking at 26 builds (many more I intentionally unlisted as well in order to avoid clutter). Herald only outclasses two Elite Specializations in terms of damage (both of which I also feel are underperforming and in need of a re-evaluation, as well as Scrapper & Reaper since they're on the lower end too). I'll retract the "vast" from my statement and downgrade it to "'the majority' are able to reach 37k or higher." This doesn't change that the "vast majority" are able to outdps Herald, however.

The fact that 15/18 elite specializations are able to outdps or outsupport Herald (12 of them by a veryyy large margin) is a major balance issue. It's not that Herald isn't playable; it is. It's not that Spellbreaker isn't playable; it is as well. And it's not that Scourge isn't playable; it's certainly more relevant than either of those. The issue is and continues to be that Herald is quite literally very close to the bottom of the barrel when it comes to elite specializations in PvE and has resided there since pretty much its inception in Heart of Thorns. For there to be better balance in PvE, the Elite Specializations need to be better able to compete with each other. Currently some of them do, but some of them are still very far behind.

So chrono, mirage for some encounters, dh, weaver, tempest, de, soulbeast, renegade, holo, berserker without banners. Pretty far from "vast majority" with "one espec for a class" not being anything out of ordinary. So... Still kind of false about vast majority of especs, but at least not as much as what you've initially said.Now lets consider you said "37k++ while offering more" and... you know... Even without core specs (which was your initial claim -even if unintentionally- as well as what Virdo keeps talking about in this thread btw), it's still easly an overblown statement for whatever reason you claim it was made for.Not only that, but any build with 30k+ dps can easly fill every dps spot in a squad and still really easly complete raids. Just because something doesn't match the absolute top of the list doesn't mean much (if anything at all), because raids aren't balanced around those top-of-the-top performance builds. Not only that, but herald can do it while providing additional support being a sort of "safety net" for your squad AND it provides some unique effects/passives. You might not like what they do, but they're still there. Even moreso when apparently someone claims he enjoys playing herald for its "allrounder style" (rightfully so, I have no problem with that and it seems reasonable to me), but then in his next post turns around and try to claim that it should still top one or another, because "allrounder class shouldn't be a thing". Then... Maybe it's time to leave that "allrounder support/dmg mix" alone and pick something that's not that instead of trying to overbuff the one thing you play for the reasons you somehow simultanously like and dislike.

Aaalso notice how you moved the goalposts from "37k++ dps" to "37k+ dps OR meta support" while adding some "honorable mentions" (as if that changes anything or plays into what you've said) and "I'm nice so I won't round up". Come on now. :D

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felix.2386

felix.2386

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...pvp is filled with rev in the top end, cuz it has always been the meta defining class with high skill ceiling and high effectivenessand pve open world you literally see 1 renegade every 3 people you see.yesterday i saw 3 people in open world and 2 of them were renegade, not including myself..renegade and herald are literally god tier braindead build in open world

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LucianTheAngelic.7054

LucianTheAngelic.7054

Posted
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@Sobx.1758 said:

And what exactly do you enjoy about Herald's playstyle (in comparison to rev/rng) if it's not about its performance?

I like the aspect system.
I like the all-arounder theme from the herald, like dps/support mix
(even tho full dps or full support are still bad, a mix wont be better)And i like to be an asset in groups, which means i could fill out a support role, i could fill out an dps slot, tank, simply cc a lot etc.

It can do many things, but nothing really good though.

Seems like these things are reasonably connected to each other and giving more one way or another is a good way to simply overload the spec/build, which generally is a nono.

technically, its still something that many different classes can do at the same time,... some even better.

And you think this is a good thing for the game? I don't, which is also why I hold the position I do.

me neither. Thats why i hold mine :bleep_bloop:

So you also think
it's not good for the game
, which is why... you think
your class
should be changed to be what you don't want to see in the game? I'm confused about what you've just said here. Explain?

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.Compare it with celestial stats & 3-stat combos. Celestial stats have an WAY bigger stat-amount, while still being terrible.

It's like you completely forgot what was in the previous messages. Consider re-reading and not pretending you're looking for balance here. Actually I'll do it for you:You: "I like the
all-arounder
theme from the herald, like
dps/support mix
[...] It can do many things, but nothing really good though."-"seems like one is connected with the other and buffing it would make it overloaded"You: "...but other classes!" (no specific examples btw)-"but
I don't think it's healthy for the game
, which is why I hold the position that I do" (as in: stop trying to overbuff "
your class
")You: "
me neither
. Thats why i hold mine(??)" (soo... "I think it's not healthy for the game, which is why I think it should be buffed" ?? )

-explainYou:

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.

Previously you've said you enjoy the "dps/support mix" and the "all-rounder" type of class. Now you say that if something is an allrounder, it should be buffed so... it's not longer an allrounder? That makes no sense in regards of what you've initially claimed about you enjoying the class and agreeing (yeaaaaa...) about classes "doing everything being unhealthy for the game". You basically admit to simply wanting to overbuff the class (spec, to be more accurate) you excelusively play so it can do everything at the same time in the optimal manner. While saying you also think it's not healthy for the game.uh...

I like the design of specific classes performing in multiple roles.But its not healthy if almost Every class is a way better dps class + has a ton of supportive things to give for the group at the same time.

But rev is perfectly fine as a dps class. And what you write about here is in general just false. Well, at least it's not any more true than it already is for rev.but not all of us are when the vast majority of specs are pulling 37-43k with much, much higher burst than Herald, while also offering more than Herald

Pretty sure that's wrong (based on available online resources, I won't be trying to pretend here that I've made my own benchmark for everything, duh :p ), do you have a list of those specs/builds that do 37k+++ dps?

I wouldn't expect you to be able to bench them all don't worry, that would be absurd. Anyway here:
. Condi chrono and Mirage are also not listed because confusion doesn't proc on golems, but are worth mentioning as well since they're extremely strong and meta on several encounters

Yup, that's also what I'm mostly basing it on and that makes what you said before false.

How so? please explain

This is what you wrote (and what I was asking for):"
but not all of us are when the vast majority of specs are pulling 37-43k with much, much higher burst than Herald, while also offering more than Herald
"

Just, I don't know... count it for yourself? :D It looks to me like it was a claim made specifically to show rev as an outlier and an underperforming class (to somehow bait buffs, why else), but it's not. And that claim is false.

And what exactly do you enjoy about Herald's playstyle (in comparison to rev/rng) if it's not about its performance?

I like the aspect system.
I like the all-arounder theme from the herald, like dps/support mix
(even tho full dps or full support are still bad, a mix wont be better)And i like to be an asset in groups, which means i could fill out a support role, i could fill out an dps slot, tank, simply cc a lot etc.

It can do many things, but nothing really good though.

Seems like these things are reasonably connected to each other and giving more one way or another is a good way to simply overload the spec/build, which generally is a nono.

technically, its still something that many different classes can do at the same time,... some even better.

And you think this is a good thing for the game? I don't, which is also why I hold the position I do.

me neither. Thats why i hold mine :bleep_bloop:

So you also think
it's not good for the game
, which is why... you think
your class
should be changed to be what you don't want to see in the game? I'm confused about what you've just said here. Explain?

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.Compare it with celestial stats & 3-stat combos. Celestial stats have an WAY bigger stat-amount, while still being terrible.

It's like you completely forgot what was in the previous messages. Consider re-reading and not pretending you're looking for balance here. Actually I'll do it for you:You: "I like the
all-arounder
theme from the herald, like
dps/support mix
[...] It can do many things, but nothing really good though."-"seems like one is connected with the other and buffing it would make it overloaded"You: "...but other classes!" (no specific examples btw)-"but
I don't think it's healthy for the game
, which is why I hold the position that I do" (as in: stop trying to overbuff "
your class
")You: "
me neither
. Thats why i hold mine(??)" (soo... "I think it's not healthy for the game, which is why I think it should be buffed" ?? )

-explainYou:

Classes should specialize into Damage or Supporters only.

If someone is a mix between dmg / support ,like herald, that doesnt excel at both, it should be buffed.

Previously you've said you enjoy the "dps/support mix" and the "all-rounder" type of class. Now you say that if something is an allrounder, it should be buffed so... it's not longer an allrounder? That makes no sense in regards of what you've initially claimed about you enjoying the class and agreeing (yeaaaaa...) about classes "doing everything being unhealthy for the game". You basically admit to simply wanting to overbuff the class (spec, to be more accurate) you excelusively play so it can do everything at the same time in the optimal manner. While saying you also think it's not healthy for the game.uh...

I like the design of specific classes performing in multiple roles.But its not healthy if almost Every class is a way better dps class + has a ton of supportive things to give for the group at the same time.

But rev is perfectly fine as a dps class. And what you write about here is in general just false. Well, at least it's not any more true than it already is for rev.but not all of us are when the vast majority of specs are pulling 37-43k with much, much higher burst than Herald, while also offering more than Herald

Pretty sure that's wrong (based on available online resources, I won't be trying to pretend here that I've made my own benchmark for everything, duh :p ), do you have a list of those specs/builds that do 37k+++ dps?

I wouldn't expect you to be able to bench them all don't worry, that would be absurd. Anyway here:
. Condi chrono and Mirage are also not listed because confusion doesn't proc on golems, but are worth mentioning as well since they're extremely strong and meta on several encounters

Yup, that's also what I'm mostly basing it on and that makes what you said before false.

How so? please explain

This is what you wrote (and what I was asking for):"
but not all of us are when the vast majority of specs are pulling 37-43k with much, much higher burst than Herald, while also offering more than Herald
"

Just, I don't know... count it for yourself? :D It looks to me like it was a claim made specifically to show rev as an outlier and an underperforming class (to somehow bait buffs, why else), but it's not. And that claim is false.

Let me clarify. When I say "Specs" I don't mean "All specs including Core" nor do I mean "All traitline specializations." I very specifically mean "Elite specs." Why do I specifically mean this? Well, core has been largely irrelevant for 6 years since HoT and became even more irrelevant after PoF. The fact is, Core doesn't offer enough for most professions to be even considered since most of them don't offer enough dps or support to be relevant when compared with their e-specs. A strong Core class is an outlier, and the very design of Elite Specs prevents Core from being strong without making the Elite overpowered. Elites specialize into damage or other roles, providing things that the core class just doesn't. I don't think an argument that "Core specs are relevant" or "Core specs should be factored in" is a strong argument, which is why I very intentionally ignore them, just as they've been very largely ignored in PvE by Anet for 6 years. Apologies for being imprecise with my initial claim of "specs" that's on me. However, my statement is still true given the meaning I was intending.

Maybe
, but then again I was commenting on what you said, not on what you've "intended to say despite saying something else", because I have no way to determine your intentions before you actually write specifically what you think and as such I said your initial claim was false because... it was/is. Hopefully that's understandable.

Amazingly, humans make mistakes and aren't always clear with their intended meanings. There's no "maybe;" my amended statement was the intention. Regardless, I've cleared up my intention and acknowledged that my original statement was partially inaccurate. The original statement also wasn't actually comprehensive enough or explanatory enough to discuss the issue at the full depth it needs to be discussed. The focus should shift to a more comprehensive discussion of the issue, which I provided with the above list. You're welcome to continue nitpicking my original statement if you want though

Let's analyze the remaining, actually relevant, 18 specs:

[...]

So to analyze this (again not including Core specs since they're generally irrelevant), we have 12/18 Elite specs able to hit 37k DPS or higher or play a Meta support role (i.e. Druid). Looking at the "Honorable Mentions" Category brings the total up to 15/18 Elite specs able to outdps Herald. In terms of individual builds listed above that beat Herald in terms of DPS/Meta Relevance you're looking at 26 builds (many more I intentionally unlisted as well in order to avoid clutter). Herald only outclasses two Elite Specializations in terms of damage (both of which I also feel are underperforming and in need of a re-evaluation, as well as Scrapper & Reaper since they're on the lower end too). I'll retract the "vast" from my statement and downgrade it to "'the majority' are able to reach 37k or higher." This doesn't change that the "vast majority" are able to outdps Herald, however.

The fact that 15/18 elite specializations are able to outdps or outsupport Herald (12 of them by a veryyy large margin) is a major balance issue. It's not that Herald isn't playable; it is. It's not that Spellbreaker isn't playable; it is as well. And it's not that Scourge isn't playable; it's certainly more relevant than either of those. The issue is and continues to be that Herald is quite literally very close to the bottom of the barrel when it comes to elite specializations in PvE and has resided there since pretty much its inception in Heart of Thorns. For there to be
better
balance in PvE, the Elite Specializations need to be better able to compete with each other. Currently some of them do, but some of them are still
very
far behind.

So chrono, mirage
for some encounters
, dh, weaver, tempest, de, soulbeast,
renegade
, holo, berserker
without banners
. Pretty far from "vast majority" with "one espec for a class" not being anything out of ordinary. So... Still kind of false about vast majority of
e
specs, but at least not as much as what you've initially said.Now lets consider you said "37k++
while offering more
" and... you know... Even without core specs (which was your initial claim -even if unintentionally- as well as what Virdo keeps talking about in this thread btw), it's still easly an overblown statement
for whatever reason you claim it was made for
.

I already walked back the "Vast" part of my statement in my previous post if you read closely. It is still "the majority" however, with 10/18 e-specs being able to reach these insane numbers (without acknowledging any meta support options). Can bump that to 11 if you include Core Guard, but as mentioned I don't think Core is relevant for PvE generally.

Not only that, but any build with 30k+ dps can easly fill every dps spot in a squad and still really easly complete raids. Just because something doesn't match the absolute top of the list doesn't mean much (if anything at all), because raids aren't balanced around those top-of-the-top performance builds. Not only that, but herald can do it while providing additional support being a sort of "safety net" for your squad AND it provides some unique effects/passives.

No one is arguing that you can't "fill every dps spot in the squad with 30k dps classes and beat raids." That's always been the case and has been apparent since top tier groups have done tons of different meme runs with various self imposed challenges, such as low tier gear, core classes, all p/p thieves, etc. Generally, people that want buffs for Herald simply want it to be more competitive with other specs. That doesn't mean it has to be meta or the best. A lower tier dps bench like Reaper's 34k would be fine for the class

Herald provides "additional support" that is easily brought (and brought better) by other support and dps classes. The majority of what Herald brings is redundant for any organized squad that has support players that even partially know what they're doing (i.e. most squads/groups with support players). Herald's F2 passives are also "meh" at best. Shiro's (which is the best of the 5 passives) is a roughly 2k dps increase total at best in a 10 man squad. Assassin's Presence isn't bad with 150 ferocity for 5, but it's already brought by the Alacrigade (though Herald can bring it for the other 5 if the comp allows for it), but it further reduces Herald's personal DPS down from 32k to 30k. Contrast this with Banner Warrior, which can bring 34k raw damage on condi or power (with strong burst!) and also brings massive 10man buffs for the squad; 100 power, 100 precision, 100 condi, 100 ferocity from the banners. Not only does Banner Warrior outdps and outbuff Herald consistently, it also brings more CC without having to sacrifice as much damage as Herald (swapping to staff is a huge damage loss for Rev)

You might not like what they do, but they're still there. Even moreso when apparently someone claims he enjoys playing herald for its "allrounder style" (rightfully so, I have no problem with that and it seems reasonable to me), but then in his next post turns around and try to claim that it should still top one or another, because "allrounder class shouldn't be a thing". Then... Maybe it's time to leave that "allrounder support/dmg mix" alone and pick something that's not that instead of trying to overbuff the one thing you play for the reasons you somehow simultanously like and dislike.

If classes are left where they currently are, with 10/18 specs hitting 37k, banner war at 34k with massive 10 man buffs, etc. then Herald absolutely should be buffed to 34kish given that it isn't even comparable to some specs that are similar to it that also provide huge damage and huge group unique buffs. If other classes are brought down, then Herald should be brought up to 32k or left alone (depending on how much the others are brought down).

Aaalso notice how you moved the goalposts from "37k++ dps" to "37k+ dps OR meta support" while adding some "honorable mentions" (as if that changes anything or plays into what you've said) and "I'm nice so I won't round up". Come on now. :D

I expanded and clarified my statement to be more reflective of the actual reality of the situation. You're welcome to try to spin this in your favor, but me including more data actually hurts your argumentation more than it helps. Feel free to throw around philosophical jargon and argumentative fallacies like "moving the goalposts," (and I already clarified I walked back the "vast" part of my statement anyway), but that doesn't change the actual data I've presented above. Ignoring an entire elite spec like Druid simply because it doesn't personally hit 37k, despite the fact it has been meta for 6 years and helps other classes achieve those numbers, would be a grave mistake when analyzing the PvE meta game. This is why I added to my initial statement; to be more comprehensive and actually show the very weak state of Herald in comparison to the rest of the metagame. Honorable mentions ARE worth mentioning, since they still beat Herald, even if not by the 37k margin. We can continue to nitpick my original statement or we can actually look at a more complete representation of the PvE metagame in relationship to the spec we're discussing

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