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Suggestion: Remove Elite Specs from WvW


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Mini Rant:Please try and keep this post constructive and not immediately dismiss this idea. I've seen a lot of responses from forum regulars basically be "yOu'Re sTupId" "what a dumb idea har har" "oh there's ONE issue with your idea so the entire idea is bad" and some of these posts don't even have proper grammar. It really drags on an otherwise good thread and makes players like me who want to offer suggestions and ideas want to ram our heads into a wall. Okay, rant over. Here goes.

Problems with Elite Specs:Currently elite specializations impact the WvW game mode negatively in many ways, including the following:

  • Creating a whole bunch of sharp visual effects which might look nice on their own or with a small group, but end up turning the ground in a zerg fight into an epileptic puddle that lags the game.
  • Making entire classes irrelevant (Scrapper stealth taking over the role mesmer has had for years)
  • Being basically a pure upgrade from base classes rather than an option to provide different types of gameplay
  • Creating a sharp barrier to entry for newer players who seem completely outmatched if they don't have X elite specialization
  • Contributing heavily to power creep which has been a major issue for GW2 and WvW for a long time

I'm sure there's more downsides than just this but those are a good start. ^

Suggestions:My suggestion would be the following:

  1. Plan another WvW Week where the major rule change is no elite specializations. Let the players, not just the forum warriors, react to this idea and see if it's viable or an improvement from where we are now.
  2. Hold some kind of poll that will let players decide whether a major change like this should happen. This is not the essence of the idea but I believe players would appreciate a greater role in deciding whether new changes happen or not.
  3. If the idea stands, plan on making this a permanent change to WvW BEFORE the release of the next expansion. Be clear with WvW players that they will not need to purchase the new expansion to be competitive in WvW, but that your expansion will offer other amenities that will entice them to purchase the expansion.

I would appreciate some constructive feedback on this. Thanks for reading, cheers

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Resetting the game to 2012 isn't going to make new players more comfortable or put Mesmers back in zergs again.

Besides, you can go from fresh 80 to having both of your profession's elites fully unlocked in a single afternoon.

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Not really much point in having this discussion because the developers have already stated they will not restrict players from playing certain specs or expansions.

This isn't going to magically balance wvw or make some classes relevant again, because of the simple fact that many base trait lines have changed over the years, a few lines were complete make overs, and some butchered because of their elite specs, aka mirage, also a lot were changed even in the recent balance patch which nerfed cooldowns on defense skills. Do we also revert all those changes?

There's other general mechanics that have impacted the game mode in a negative way that could be looked at, such as the whole boon vs conditions over blasting fields game play they changed to for HoT, more damage(one shots, no cap super condi stacking) vs more defense(immunity, shields, auto defenses), which has constantly been a struggle for them to balance. Some of it has been looked at recently, rest in another 5 years I suppose.

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It's more of a balance issue than anything.. though attempts have been made to remedy it.Adding trade offs to some specs is a good way of doing it, Soulbeast loosing a pet was one, Scourge loosing shroud entirely was another.

More of this I think would be a better solution than just taking peoples build options away.If anything I think doing that would only highlight more balance issues between core classes.

Im not sure if it's the effects that are slowing down the servers though, from what I keep seeing it's massive condition application that people are mostly blaming which would make sense.

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I like the Elite specs and really the core traits and skills are vastly different than early game and probably carry many of the problems you find in Elite specs anyway. You also should consider how different the game is now and who might suddenly be on the bottom of the stack compared to other specs. Maybe your idea is something to consider for other game modes but I see core and elites from all professions in WvW pretty consistently. Some builds are more popular but that's the MMO life and that's always temporary.

You should also consider how many people wouldn't even log on if you suddenly took away their builds. I like and still use core thief but I like the animations and build options that Daredevil and Deadeye provide more than attempting to get rid of a problem spec or two by trashing everything after a certain date.

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@Bubbaworks.6023 said:

  • Making entire classes irrelevant (Scrapper stealth taking over the role mesmer has had for years)

I am sure engy mains who spent around 6 years being irrelevant for zergs/non-GvG guilds (and GvG was barely a role) will be in tears over the predicament of mesmers and how a class lacking a role / relevance is suddenly an issue that never existed before elites... oh, wait...

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Devs said no to that stuff...

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:We certainly welcome any ideas for future WvW events!

Here are some guidelines we've been using in our brainstorming.

Change the way WvW is played in some way. Doesn't have to be a big change, but should be a change.

Using events as test beds for permanent changes can be nice, but isn't necessary. There are many things we probably would be willing to do for the length of a matchup, but wouldn't want it to be forever.

Events shouldn't require large art changes. We want to be able to implement these events quickly and not rely on getting a lot of art that may never be used again.

Events shouldn't exclude large sections of the player base. No restricting events to specific classes, expansions, etc.

Looking forward to hearing more ideas!

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The problem isn't that Elite specs are too strong, its that Core specs are too weak (usually).

One of their biggest problems is unpolished traitilnes (from reimagining the Trait system many times and..giving up?) and diminishing returns from slotting certain types of skills, especially being limited to four skills of a type at once instead of five like the Elite specs, because that affects Rune, Sigil and Trait synergy, especially when it comes to Elite skills (for example, Core Necro missing an Elite Well while Chronomancer and Scrapper have one, Core Ranger missing an Elite Trap when Dragonhunter has one, etc.).

All of the Core specs need to be revamped to be more complete, instead of half-finished. And some of the Elite specs could use some improvement too, for example Soulbeast is still very clunky and could be alot better (as in Quality of Life, not power creep).

The whole game still seems quite unpolished when it comes to classes and builds..

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@Svarty.8019 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:Well games die if there's no changes .

Is that a hint aimed in the direction of the developers? If so, I think you're wasting your time, but hats off to you for subtlety.

Also: Eh? WvW hasn't had any big changes since HoT.... FIVE(?) years ago.

:3 well wvw changed for those of us who observe.

For me in particular, I've come to accept that all is fair

But I'd prefer if they did it the science knowledge way. Build on a bedrock and make sure anything that comes in the future does not conflict. And makeconflicting change only if there's a better bedrock.

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Possibly the only idea worse than pvp amulets.

To elaborate. No elite specs means less build diversity and more importantly less archetype diversity, healing builds for example wouldn't really exist, which would be awful.

Also the core specs are imo balanced worse than the elite ones.

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yea I'd agree with the change if it wasn't about the trade-offs some of the elite specs got. most mesmer players for example think that best mes spec is core followed by chrono and mirage. and I am not really sure what the trade-off is for using daredevil ,tempest and weaver. Anet isn't really consistent in applying trade-offs imo. it just showed when they a introduced the trade-off for holo. so they might work on some more atm.

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I can see the fresh new zerg meta right now

Firebrand -> GuardianScrapper -> another Guardian, to make up the stab shortfall from getting rid of the FirebrandSpellbreaker -> some kind of derpy hammer build or maybe More GuardianScourge -> core Necro well build copy-pasted from 2012Weaver or Tempest -> core Ele running a slightly worse version of the same build they were running last week

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While I personally would have enjoyed that, as I still don't like any of the elite specializations. I understand that ANet just couldn't do that, simply because they would be taking a way to play a class away from those that likes them (and those people might only like playing the class because of that elite etc).

That said, I'd love to see it, and would be curious how the balance would work out between the mode with just core specs. Like how well core guard zerg support still holds up or not etc without FB.

But the arguments against it are pretty damning:

  • They'd basically flat out have to admit that they couldn't manage to balance their own game, and abandon all elite specs. Wouldn't create a very good image.
  • They'd basically tell all the ones that likes/loves the elite specs to GTFO of WvW, and I'm afraid that isn't a small number.

I could see it as a week event, just barely, and I'd love it.

Again, I think this might have worked better as a separate map with own rules.

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then there is also the fact that some classes got multiple trade-offs. like zerker with -300 toughness and rank 1 bursts. or holo with additional recharge on toolbelt although he takes dmg from overheating already. and then you got pseudo trade-offs like sb with limit to 1pet which isn't really a problem imo. when I play sb I pretty much stay fused with the pet all the time, because outside of pvp/wvw I consider them useless.

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