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DPS meter policy needs to be revised


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I want to stress out my issue with DPS meters. I am not in peace with the fact that after 4 years ArenaNet decide to walk away from their principles and allowed players to use this tool. I understand that it's easier to allow certain tool and cooperate with the dev to make it compliant to game rules instead of chasing players using it in the background.

However, allowing this tool has come with certain oversight that I hope ArenaNet is going to consider and fix soon.

Since the only allowed DPS meter at this point is ArcDPS I'm going to refer to it and its creator - deltaconnected - in this thread.

I accept that players have different goals and big succesful game like Guild Wars 2 should provide content and tools for different groups of players. Therefore I agree that DPS meter has its uses and there are people who benefit from using it and I am not going to advocate for 100% deletion of this tool.

Yet there is one thing I have issue with. I do not understand how is it possible that every player using this tool is 100% allowed to monitor my performance in game without my consent. I am not using this tool. So why is it possible for random people watch my DPS numbers?

I find this a big issue in terms of player privacy in game. ArenaNet does not allow gear inspections or naming and shaming exactly because of respect for players' privacy. After changing forums engine they even deleted tools like "thumbs down" under our posts to not spread unnecessary negativity amongst the community.

This is why I don't understand why they allowed people to spy on other players' performance (numbers, dps, whatever you call it) without our consent.

If the tool has to exist in the game, make it clear that it is by default only to monitor numbers of a player using it unless other players in group agree to share their numbers.

I think the DPS meters policy needs to be revied. This tool can cause unnecessary toxicity in groups, especially because me, as a player, have no power to control who's spying on me in game. I have no option to block other players watching me, I have no option to see who's using this tool and who isn't. And this is why I believe the only fair solution is to make deltaconnected change how ArcDPS works. It should be limited to personal DPS only unless other players agree to share their numbers from the tool.

Every party/squad leader has every right to require this tool in group content (since it's allowed) and every other player should be allowed to not agree to other players spying on their numbers.

I think this is very reasonable request that gives players back power over their accounts and their privacy that is currently violated by usage of ArcDPS.


EDIT: I am well aware I'm going to be accused of poor performance myself, taking revenge for being kicked etc. Well, that's not my story, sorry to disappoint. This tool is used outside of raids and even in raids, there is no requirement of doing top dps for anyone.

Every group has every right to request me to use the meter and share dps with them. But it should be my decision to join, not expect by default that every player in the game may or may not use this tool and judge me.


EDIT2: BGDM worked like this. People couldn't see your numbers unless you joined their server and share your numbers. It was okay then and this whole sub was fixated about this tool. Why is it bad now?


EDIT3: This repost has been made to respect forums rules.


EDIT4: From the beginning I get the feeling that not everyone understands what this thread is about and already assumed I want dps meter to be removed. This goes for both sides. That's not my intention. I understand the value of this tool, I agree it can provide positive results in ones gameplay just like it can provide unnecessary toxicity in group play. This is by definition just a tool and problems are always caused by people.

However, just like in real life, we have regulations to keep people in check. To guarantee fair treatment for everyone. Current state of DPS meter policy violates fair position between players in Tyria. It removes freedom of choice from (I dare to say) majority of the community, to gratify loud minority. This needs to be revied and changed.

I understand the argument of "make your own group". This old saying is there with us since the beginning of time, when the only intanced endgame were dungeons. I would agree with you on this. But I can't because of one simple thing.

Currently if I make my own group I have no instruments to execute my LFG requirements. I can't tell who is using DPS meter, I can't filter out for people not using this tool, the only option I have is to "believe" you are going to follow my rules. Meanwhile, people using DPS meters have all the power. They can advertise for top dps meta players and from the beginning they can evaluate their performance. They don't need to ask for permission, they just use this tool. And this tool affects not only people sharing it, well that would be awesome. This tool affects people who are unaware of it or who simply refuse to invade vanilla game client. This is why I find this an issue. The choice is there, but the options to execute the choice is left to only one group of players.

I do not accept that suddenly, after 4 years, game shifted and new rules (that are not even mentioned in game's documents, but happen to be random reddit post of ArenaNet employee) are for me to expect that literally everyone can now be using this tool, reading my account data and sharing it to other people without my consent. This is why it's a privacy issue. I have no power over it, I can't control it. All I can do is to pretend I'm okay with this.

This is also a security problem. Currently what ArcDPS does is reading game memory for DPS numbers. But why should I believe this? ArenaNet takes no responsibility for any damage caused by this tool. Deltaconnected also has no power to provide any security for my account. The problem is, this app reads game memory, everything, but shows you only dps numbers. I can already imagine situation that an update is pushed (which ArenaNet has no control over either) that can share much more information from my account. Even if they notice, all they can do is to forbid usage of this tool. But people will already be using it, downloaded and running. Before BGDM was forbidden, it had many options that violate security and privace of players' accounts. It took some time before Anet officialy forbid this tool and even then there are still people using it. There are still people not knowing this tool is forbidden!

That being said, I believe this is reasonable to review DPS meter policy to respect player's right to chose who he wants to play with and on what terms. Current in-game tools do not provide the freedom of choice, all the solutions are based on "belief" that ArcDPS is safe program and that players read my LFG and respect my rules.

I think this solution brings all the players on fair ground:- make ArcDPS to work as personal DPS meter

  • make a function of sharing DPS values in your group but it should only work if player chooses to share their numbers and it's possible only between people using this tool
  • do not allow this or any tool to share any data associated to identified accounts without consent of the owner of the account, this is how your API tools work so why DPS meter should be on different rules?

This post quoted below made by another user puts very interesting perspective not only on my concerns but also DPS meter as a whole. I think it's very informative and I want to highlight it in this thread:

@Paladine.6082 said:I work in privacy for a living at a very high level (I helped draft the upcoming ePrivacy Regulation in the EU and am actually in Brussels next week for more discussions at the European Parliament) and have been advocating stronger digital privacy for a very long time - so I found your post interesting. I think the arguments you raised are completely valid (and as a condi warrior in full ascended I am not concerned about my DPS being "poor") and that this type of activity is an infringement of a player's privacy.

I can also tell you as a fact that gamer privacy is a focus with legislators in Europe and that technically under Article 5(3) of 2002/58/EC this type of activity would already fall foul of European law as this makes it unlawful to gain access to any information on an end user's terminal equipment without consent - given the data for DPS meters is generated on the end user's terminal equipment it is pretty clear cut.

Also Article 10 of the upcoming ePrivacy Regulation in Europe has a requirement for software to have privacy built in (by design) and for it to be the default setting - so arguably the developer of ArcDPS would be required to ensure that a: users of the software are not able to see other users' DPS without consent; and b: privacy settings are enabled by default.

As I mentioned there is already some focus from legislators on gamer privacy over concerns relating to in game advertising (which is rapidly becoming a thing), it would not be difficult to make them aware of other privacy related issues in games including logging of "whispers" for example - which again under the new ePrivacy Regulation will be illegal as private messaging is classified as an ancillary service under the European Electronic Communications Code and are protected under the upcoming Regulation. The same would also be true of Guild Chat - as any communication which is restricted to a specific closed group is protected under the new law - map chat would not be covered because it is considered a "public" message (not restricted to a closed group - it is restricted to just people on that map but you have no idea of who they are, so you are effectively making a public broadcast).

With VR, AI and Personal Assistants all entering the gaming space - not to mention other services such as head tracking, facial mapping/recognition, smart microphones etc. it is inevitable that there will be more interest in this space from Legislators and perhaps this is something I will raise in my discussions in Brussels next week.

Bottom line is - it doesn't make good sense to leave this until some form of enforcement action is taken - that will only lead to reputational damage and bring it even more into focus. The sensible thing to do is to self regulate now before the situation gets out of hand and lawmakers need to get involved.


Chris Cleary decided to join us in the discussion, and this is his response. I'm highlighting it here for better accessibility.

@"Chris Cleary.8017" said:Since this thread has really exploded, and there seems to be some possible misunderstanding about privacy here, I'll comment.

The current implementation of DPS meters is nothing more than a re-presentation of information already being transmitted by the game server to all clients in the reporting radius. Combat data does not have player ownership as it is being generated by the game server and then transmitted in order to update the status of the world state.

Essentially since the server is running a calculation/simulation based on actions by all the clients in the area, it owns the subsequent reporting of all calculations both literally and legally.

This is different for situations like chat, where there is no impact or simulation necessary and essentially is a forwarding service that the server is simply handling the reporting of the client action.

Regional laws change, if at some point change is required, we will revisit it at that time. I would suggest visiting the Guild Wars 2 User Agreement if you are unsure of anything privacy related for Guild Wars 2.


First of all, it's never been my intention to make this thread into legal case. People are passionate about dps meter topic, for both sides of the discussion, yet my motivations to create this thread are not about making this "court case". The fact that legal terms and definitions appeared pushed by other players amazed me probably as much as you.

This is the case not only of privacy, but also security, choice, respect and fair ground for all the players. Your current policy states that every player can use a 3rd party app that translates visual, yet not direct information from game client into direct number also associating it with my account. This app can be used to monitor my account without my consent or even knowledge that another player is monitoring my activity in game. I think this is totally out of place that you force all players in game to expect that every time they join a group, they are have to be assuming anyone can be monitoring them. ArcDPS is not part of the game, it's 3rd party tool. We never agreed to anything related to deltaconnected in User Agreement. Your answer is that "you join the party, you agree to be monitored". Well, no. This is very wide and unfair approach. ArcDPS is not part of the game, is not required for game integrity or content completion. You should not require me to accept this tool automatically when joining the group when at the same time ArenaNet takes no responsibility for any problems caused by this tool. I think this is also out of place that you now gate your content with the premise of agreeing to using this tool.

This needs to be reviewed and changed ASAP.

Possible solutions are:

  1. Changing the policy to state that sharing any information using 3rd party tools is possible only if player consents.
  2. Acknowledging that ArenaNet takes responsibility for any problems approved 3rd party tools may cause and help players with consequences.

I hope you take this into consideration and discuss this case with your team. Currently you put player on unfair ground, gratifying a minority of passionate players over the rest of community.


Since it's impossible to answer to everyone here directly, I would like to make a general response.

I am not against DPS meters. I am against their current implementation and ArenaNet's policy. Unfortunately there are people who can't get over their personal bias and participate in the disscusion on healthy terms. To those who understand what my concerns are, no matter if you agree with me or not, thank you for reasonable approach and good talk we have here.

Also, I respect that every group has power to make any requirement for players joining them. But this is unfair situation that one group of players, those using dps meters, have all the power to verify their request, while people who are not interested in these tools can only hope that people joining them are not using this tool. This is why players are currently segregated on unfair terms because of the policy.


I would like to remind everyone that User Agreement and every other GW2 document we agree on are only applicable for Game itself and ArenaNet. This is absolutely impossible for the company to demand from the user to automatically accept that they are going to broadcast our data to 3rd party tool and take no responsibility of the outcome of such action.

As it was brought up before, ArenaNet is not the owner of the behavioral data we are providing - which means they are administrating how we play, but we, players, are owners of how we play the game. We should be asked, with no assumption of "automatic consent" invention that is being pushed here, to share our data - in this case in form of DPS meter. And this is what this thread is about. This tool is provided by 3rd party developer that we never agreed to be part of our agreement with ArenaNet.

As mentioned before, dps number and other combat related data can be considered our behavioral data which means is under privacy protection. ArenaNet can't just claim they own this data and whatever they want with this without our consent. They own the service and its assets, they don't own how we play.

This is what I'm bringing up since the beginning of this thread. If they want to allow DPS meter tool that allows to monitor our game behaviour, this tool should come with an option to consent to share data to the tool itself and other players. Currently, even if I'm not using this tool, ArenaNet without my consent or even knowledge demands me to assume people are doing this by default.

This is why I am asking to review the policy and change it to honor players' privacy, security and ownership of our behavioral data.

Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.

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The only reason somebody would have an issue with this is if they wanted to hide their poor performance.

What you do when you join a group is the business of the whole group (since everyone's time and effort are involved). It's not a matter of "privacy" to go AFK and let everyone else do the work. It's not a matter of "privacy" to be ignorant of the fight mechanics. And it isn't a matter of privacy to do 1/4 of the damage you should be doing to pull your weight.

DPS-meters only have value, as diagnostic tools, in context of the group. For example... I joined a T4, Thaumanova-Reactor group that was wiping over and over to Subject 6. The DPS-meter showed that everybody was doing less than 2500 dps (horrendous). So instead of wasting any more time, I wished everyone "good luck" and left. What good would it have done me to only know that my numbers were ok?

We have every right to know when we're involved in hopeless groups. There's no "privacy" issue whatsoever. It's a red-herring. Your name, address, phone-number, etc... those are actual privacy issues.

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Why so stressed over it? I don't see what is so "private" about your damage potential. The language you use makes you come across as dramatic, honestly. "Spying on you"? Come on. I think you care what they think too much.

Why don't YOU get arcdps? You are obviously uncomfortable about your damage performance. Perhaps you don't know how good or how bad it is. But the tool will tell you, and hey, if you're doing well, it'll be a nice surprise, and you'll feel rewarded that you're in the top percentage of the meter. I use the tool but honestly I can't gauge my own DPS without looking at the DPS of my squad mates. I never call someone out for having lower DPS than mine, but I suppose that will happen, although... it's worth noting that only a rude player will take a malicious stance on their issue regarding your DPS. A normal, good-willed person either won't say anything, or maybe offer some soft words of advice.

You say you feel uncomfortable not knowing who uses the tool and who doesn't, but why would that really matter? You'll never know for sure. As long as you do your best in harder group content where doing your best is really important, you should put it out of your mind and rest easy.

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BGDM and AcrDPS work differently

BGDM recorded all your combat data and was 99.999999%. So naturally, there was an opt-out bottom when using the tool as you would be publishing your direct combat data to everyone else using the tool. If you hit for 5,716 damage others using BGDM would get a report that you did 5,716 points of damage.

ArcDPS works differently as it only guesstimates which means there is a margin of inaccuracy there. The best example of its behavior would be if I knew a target had 10k HP and saw your attack brought it down to 50% health. Immediately, I would think "Oh hey, your attack just did about 5k damage." to which OP's reply is along the lines of "How dare you invade my privacy by accurately estimating the amount of damage I just dealt!!" For all I know you could have done between 4,951 and 5049 points of damage, but to me I'm just gonna ballpark it at 5k.

Also, note that ArcDPS requires a party or Squad, so it's not like I can run around open world and get guesstimations on everyone. If you don't like that your party/squadmates are guesstimating your damage output? Well, you have the choice to walk away rom that group much like the group has the choice to measure your performance. Granted, I know that a ton of folks are calling this elitism. But it works both ways in that groups can now see players who are trying to slip in for a free carry. As in, no one likes have that one guy who slips in hoping to get by with just auto attacking; it's not fair to the rest of the group that contributing a more fair amount (which of course is subjective to the group).

Personally, when I pug, I just hide the meter because there's no sense in looking at the numbers. In a raid or CM where the numbers matter. You bet I'm gonna be looking at the folks who aren't putting in the effort.

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@Fallesafe.5932 said:The only reason somebody would have an issue with this is if they wanted to hide their poor performance.

My first encounter with a player running ArcDPS was some emotional child who, from the beginning of the fractal run, couldn't shut up about what his dork meter was telling him. At the end of the first frac, everyone else in the group left. It was supposed to be a full daily run. The problem? This was a tier 2 fractal, and the group was moving through the content just fine. No, hiding performance is not the only reason a person would have problems with a global DPS meter. Yes, he could have been annoying for a host of other reasons, but he WAS annoying because of his meter.

What you do when you join a group is the business of the whole group (since everyone's time and effort are involved). It's not a matter of "privacy" to go AFK and let everyone else do the work. It's not a matter of "privacy" to be ignorant of the fight mechanics. And it isn't a matter of privacy to do 1/4 of the damage you should be doing to pull your weight.

Agreed, and for those players who choose to partake in the elite/hardcore content of the game, their group members should have a way to monitor things, I would argue it's almost a requirement. For the majority of the playerbase that sticks to casual content, it's totally unnecessary.

DPS-meters only have value, as diagnostic tools, in context of the group. For example... I joined a T4, Thaumanova-Reactor group that was wiping over and over to Subject 6. The DPS-meter showed that everybody was doing less than 2500 dps (horrendous). So instead of wasting any more time, I wished everyone "good luck" and left. What good would it have done me to only know that my numbers were ok?

A perfectly legit use for a DPS meter. But saying that this is the only value of a DPS meter is just wrong. They also have value as a griefing tool, and generally enable trollish behavior in those who choose to use then in that way.

We have every right to know when we're involved in hopeless groups. There's no "privacy" issue whatsoever. It's a red-herring. Your name, address, phone-number, etc... those are actual privacy issues.

It's not a privacy issue, but it can be a quality of life issue when they are misused.

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To be honest i dont see how making a calculation of the damage ON A PARTY BOSS is invading your privacity, since the boss is public to the party, another topic would be to know exactly how YOU that one party member who wants to hide his dps DID that damage, wich is something it CANT do, but since the boss is open to the whole party is not privacy in terms of the damage dealt to it.

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If they formed the squad/group, they're in control of it. Very simple...

But if I am the one creating the group I have no power to stop you joining me an still spying on me. This is not fair.

Anet literally can't stop it though. People will just not say anything and you'll find yourself kicked for 'no reason'.

It's all about giving player power to decide whether he wants to be spied on. Every group leader can make requirement to use dps meter and share it if he wants but I should have power to actively share my numbers, not passively assume anyone can watch me.

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@Nowaki.2136 said:To be honest i dont see how making a calculation of the damage ON A PARTY BOSS is invading your privacity, since the boss is public to the party, another topic would be to know exactly how YOU that one party member who wants to hide his dps DID that damage, wich is something it CANT do, but since the boss is open to the whole party is not privacy in terms of the damage dealt to it.

BGDM didn't allow others to see my dps unless I allowed them. This should be base rule for arc dps required by ArenaNet to make this tool compliant.

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@Javelin.7960 said:

My first encounter with a player running ArcDPS was some emotional child who, from the beginning of the fractal run, couldn't shut up about what his dork meter was telling him. At the end of the first frac, everyone else in the group left. It was supposed to be a full daily run. The problem? This was a tier 2 fractal, and the group was moving through the content just fine. No, hiding performance is not the only reason a person would have problems with a global DPS meter. Yes, he could have been annoying for a host of other reasons, but he WAS annoying because of his meter.

There you have it.A reasonable, normal person won't do such a thing. They know it's casual content. Only someone with behavioral issues will act this way, and indeed, they'll do that with or without the meter. And I see no reason to ruin the perks of having Arcdps just because some people happen to have it and happen to be jerks.

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IMO, the best solution is to give the player who created the group the choice of sharing DPS info among the group, or not. Choice is made at group creation, and applies equally to the entire party. Make the status of this toggle visible on the LFG screen, that way for PUGs people know going in if they are joining a metered group, or not.

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@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@Javelin.7960 said:

My first encounter with a player running ArcDPS was some emotional child who, from the beginning of the fractal run, couldn't shut up about what his dork meter was telling him. At the end of the first frac, everyone else in the group left. It was supposed to be a full daily run. The problem? This was a tier 2 fractal, and the group was moving through the content just fine. No, hiding performance is not the only reason a person would have problems with a global DPS meter.
Yes, he could have been annoying for a host of other reasons
, but he WAS annoying because of his meter.

There you have it.A reasonable, normal person won't do such a thing. They know it's casual content. Only someone with behavioral issues will act this way, and indeed, they'll do that with or without the meter. And I see no reason to ruin the perks of having Arcdps just because some people happen to have it and happen to be jerks.

Reasonable, normal people don't go out and get blotto drunk and drive a car, either, but we have laws against it anyway, because not everyone is reasonable. Regulating unacceptable behavior is a perfectly legitimate use of administrative authority. If the bad outweighs the good, and I would argue it does for casual content, because people were snoozing through this stuff years before ArcDPS existed, then it's not unreasonable to discuss removing the tool that is enabling the bad behavior.

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@Javelin.7960 said:My first encounter with a player running ArcDPS was some emotional child who, from the beginning of the fractal run, couldn't shut up about what his dork meter was telling him. At the end of the first frac, everyone else in the group left. It was supposed to be a full daily run. The problem? This was a tier 2 fractal, and the group was moving through the content just fine. No, hiding performance is not the only reason a person would have problems with a global DPS meter. Yes, he could have been annoying for a host of other reasons, but he WAS annoying because of his meter.

Sorry, no. The DPS meter was only a tool for the other player being a jerk. There were people exactly like that in the first months of GW2 during dungeon runs and during open world chain events (including those during LS1).

Regardless of where one stands on the topic of DPS meters, privacy of combat data, or ANet's role, let's try not to assume something as a "fact" just because it sounds plausible.

I support your position that DPS meters are overkill in T2 FotM and I'd even believe that the DPS-shouter was distracted from their own role by over-reliance on ArcDPS. I agree with how you handled it (leaving to find another group). But I can't agree that a DPS meter caused a player to be rude, crude, or otherwise socially unacceptable.

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@Javelin.7960 said:IMO, the best solution is to give the player who created the group the choice of sharing DPS info among the group, or not. Choice is made at group creation, and applies equally to the entire party. Make the status of this toggle visible on the LFG screen, that way for PUGs people know going in if they are joining a metered group, or not.

Ding ding ding.

with the availability and ease of use of the tool, I automatically assume that any pug I hop into is gonna have me on a meter. If I wanted a meter-free group. Well, that's easy. Just make a post in LFG "Fractal dailies. No meter, no gear checks, just have fun". Ta Da. If someone comes in complaining that the group is too relaxed? Well, that's on him for joining a group whose requirement (or lack there of) were clearly posted in the listing.

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@Nowaki.2136 said:To be honest i dont see how making a calculation of the damage ON A PARTY BOSS is invading your privacity, since the boss is public to the party, another topic would be to know exactly how YOU that one party member who wants to hide his dps DID that damage, wich is something it CANT do, but since the boss is open to the whole party is not privacy in terms of the damage dealt to it.

To be perfectly honest, I have a hard time believing the claims that ArcDPS estimates other party members damage based on damage taken to the boss that was not from the players using the meter.

Let me explain why.

If it truely does estimate damage in that fashion, then every player in a party who has no meter should logically be recorded as doing the same exact damage. If you're in a party of 5 players, and only 2 of them have meters, if an enemy takes 12k damage that is not sourced from one of the players using a meter, then the 3 without a meter should be recorded as having each done 4k damage. But this is most certainly not the case. It has been made quite clear over and over again, that each individual party member has their own recorded values for DPS regardless of if they have a meter themselves or not. In open world content this is even more evident. The meters are able to assign values to everyone participating in the event, which means that the meter is capable of obtaining data on individuals. It's not estimating. It may not be able to source the damage to individual attacks, but it certainly is able to source the damage to individual players.

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@Javelin.7960 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@Javelin.7960 said:

My first encounter with a player running ArcDPS was some emotional child who, from the beginning of the fractal run, couldn't shut up about what his dork meter was telling him. At the end of the first frac, everyone else in the group left. It was supposed to be a full daily run. The problem? This was a tier 2 fractal, and the group was moving through the content just fine. No, hiding performance is not the only reason a person would have problems with a global DPS meter.
Yes, he could have been annoying for a host of other reasons
, but he WAS annoying because of his meter.

There you have it.A reasonable, normal person won't do such a thing. They know it's casual content. Only someone with behavioral issues will act this way, and indeed, they'll do that with or without the meter. And I see no reason to ruin the perks of having Arcdps just because some people happen to have it and happen to be jerks.

Reasonable, normal people don't go out and get blotto drunk and drive a car, either, but we have laws against it anyway, because not everyone is reasonable. Regulating unacceptable behavior is a perfectly legitimate use of administrative authority. If the bad outweighs the good, and I would argue it does for casual content, because people were snoozing through this stuff years before ArcDPS existed, then it's not unreasonable to discuss removing the tool that is enabling the bad behavior.

I'm not going to count the example you gave, it's too far removed from what we're discussing. It's a law because there is LIFE AND DEATH at stake in such a situation. If Arcdps could potentially endanger the lives of others by using it, then it would be gone faster than a sneeze. I don't think the bad outweighs the good. They're "snoozing" through such content, and you gave a tiny minority example of ONE person being badly behaved. But they're not "snoozing" through higher level content, where it actually counts.

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@Kheldorn.5123 said:I want to stress out my issue with DPS meters. I am not in peace with the fact that after 4 years ArenaNet decide to walk away from their principles and allowed players to use this tool. I understand that it's easier to allow certain tool and cooperate with the dev to make it compliant to game rules instead of chasing players using it in the background.

However, allowing this tool has come with certain oversight that I hope ArenaNet is going to consider and fix soon.

Since the only allowed DPS meter at this point is ArcDPS I'm going to refer to it and its creator - deltaconnected - in this thread.

I accept that players have different goals and big succesful game like Guild Wars 2 should provide content and tools for different groups of players. Therefore I agree that DPS meter has its uses and there are people who benefit from using it and I am not going to advocate for 100% deletion of this tool.

Yet there is one thing I have issue with. I do not understand how is it possible that every player using this tool is 100% allowed to monitor my performance in game without my consent. I am not using this tool. So why is it possible for random people watch my DPS numbers?

I find this a big issue in terms of player privacy in game. ArenaNet does not allow gear inspections or naming and shaming exactly because of respect for players' privacy. After changing forums engine they even deleted tools like "thumbs down" under our posts to not spread unnecessary negativity amongst the community.

This is why I don't understand why they allowed people to spy on other players' performance (numbers, dps, whatever you call it) without our consent.

If the tool has to exist in the game, make it clear that it is by default only to monitor numbers of a player using it unless other players in group agree to share their numbers.

I think the DPS meters policy needs to be revied. This tool can cause unnecessary toxicity in groups, especially because me, as a player, have no power to control who's spying on me in game. I have no option to block other players watching me, I have no option to see who's using this tool and who isn't. And this is why I believe the only fair solution is to make deltaconnected change how ArcDPS works. It should be limited to personal DPS only unless other players agree to share their numbers from the tool.

Every party/squad leader has every right to require this tool in group content (since it's allowed) and every other player should be allowed to not agree to other players spying on their numbers.

I think this is very reasonable request that gives players back power over their accounts and their privacy that is currently violated by usage of ArcDPS.


EDIT: I am well aware I'm going to be accused of poor performance myself, taking revenge for being kicked etc. Well, that's not my story, sorry to disappoint. This tool is used outside of raids and even in raids, there is no requirement of doing top dps for anyone.

Every group has every right to request me to use the meter and share dps with them. But it should be my decision to join, not expect by default that every player in the game may or may not use this tool and judge me.


EDIT2: BGDM worked like this. People couldn't see your numbers unless you joined their server and share your numbers. It was okay then and this whole sub was fixated about this tool. Why is it bad now?


EDIT3: This repost has been made to respect forums rules.

Joining someone else’s group is you consenting to Combat Meters, Anet has stated this, they have also stated that Combat information is not private information, so no players privacy is infringed upon, and consent is given at time of joining someone else’s group, all things covered by Anets statements on Combat meters.

If you don’t like Combat Meters only start your own groups, and kick anyone that uses them for toxic reasons, pretty simple concept.

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I didn't say it caused him to be rude, I said he was rude, in the way that he was, because of the meter. It's true, and I stated such in my original post, that he could as easily have been rude a million other ways, but the fact is he wasn't. The DPS meter enabled him, in that regard. Ignoring the DPS meters role in his behavior is, to re-use the analogy I used earlier, like declaring that drunk drivers will always find a way, so we shouldn't bother outlawing in car kegerators. The first part of the statement is true, the second is not at all.

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Yes, because kicking someone from a party and tearing them down is a GREAT way to help them improve.

Actually, it's not.

Have any of you ever considered that the person who's "not pulling their weight" (when they very well could be trying their best to) is a human being and not a tool? Have you ever considered that this person may be sensitive? Have you ever considered if all you care about is winning that you should just play single player games? Have you considered before calling out someone saying "git gud," "grow a backbone," "get thick skin," and/or "grow a pair" is rude and inconsiderate to another human being? Especially if you don't help them out with a "you can do it!" attitude and instead a "you suck" attitude?

Have you considered that just because you have thick skin that the other player may not? Have you considered that growing thick skin doesn't happen in seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, or even months? Years are more realistic. The others? Not so much. Months may be, but it depends on the person and how many months it could take. Why? Because we're all different, and we all progress and change at different rates.

Oh, yes, it does suck when you lose progress because someone made a mistake in a raid and cost you about an hour of playtime. You get upset, you get angry. But you have no right to take it out on the player or your squad or anyone. That is toxic behavior. Instead, take your angry energy and channel it into energy you can use for positive results/progress.

Yes, you basically wasted time. But isn't that video games are? A waste of time? Arguing and fighting each other over virtual things which you'll eventually abandon for a future game?

The DPS meters may be safe to use by Anet's standards at the moment, but they give toxic players a reason to be even more toxic and get away with it. They see other players as tools. They never consider that the other person is a human being behind the character; a human with flaws just like them, a human with feelings just like them. Someone snaps at you. Before you react, STOP and think: maybe they're having a bad day? Maybe there's a lot of stress on their back in real life right now and they're playing GW2 to relax. But because, according to the DPS meter and not their actual intentions or attempts, they're "not pulling their weight" you decide to kick them and make their life worse. And yes, in some ways, I'm exaggerating here in order to get my point across.

Until people learn that other players and posters on the internet are actual human beings behind the character/screen with feelings, flaws, talents, etc. and everyone respects each other for that, the internet, online games, etc. will remain toxic and unfriendly. And programs like DPS Meters just allow people to justify the disrespect that plagues the internet.

No, you cannot change the other person(s). You can only change yourself. I recommend googling "The Serenity Prayer," reading it and thinking about it before you log in again.

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@Javelin.7960 said:I didn't say it caused him to be rude, I said he was rude, in the way that he was, because of the meter. It's true, and I stated such in my original post, that he could as easily have been rude a million other ways, but the fact is he wasn't. The DPS meter enabled him, in that regard. Ignoring the DPS meters role in his behavior is, to re-use the analogy I used earlier, like declaring that drunk drivers will always find a way, so we shouldn't bother outlawing in car kegerators. The first part of the statement is true, the second is not at all.

Stop using this example, it doesn't work. You can't compare a drunk driver to someone with behavioural issues, that's beyond absurd. You don't go out of your way to drink drive, and you're not always drunk. Not to mention that life and death is a stake whereas this is a simple computer tool.

EDIT: and @"AegisRunestone.8672", the people you're talking about have behavioural issues. Nobody is being rude or a bad person just for using a DPS meter, it entirely depends on the approach of the person. Did you ever stop to consider the person can't use as sophisticated social skills as you? This is a melting pot of personalities. The person you're asking to "stop being a bad person" doesn't exist. There are many people. Reasonable, normal people are already being courteous and polite. People who aren't are not normal, and so perhaps we must taken special considerations for them too.

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A perfectly legit use for a DPS meter. But saying that this is the only value of a DPS meter is just wrong. They also have value as a griefing tool, and generally enable trollish behavior in those who choose to use then in that way.

Sorry, but this is basically another non-existent concern. I've been pugging T4 fractals for half a year. And I've never heard anybody speak a word about another player's DPS.

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