DPS meter policy needs to be revised

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Rennie.6750 said:

@Kiamu.8295 said:

@Deihnyx.6318 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:I would like to remind everyone that User Agreement and every other GW2 document we agree on are only applicable for Game itself and ArenaNet. This is absolutely impossible for the company to demand from the user to automatically accept that they are going to broadcast our data to 3rd party tool and take no responsibility for the outcome of such action.

As it was brought up before, ArenaNet is not the owner of the behavioral data we are providing - which means they are administrating how we play, but we, players, are owners of how we play the game. We should be asked, with no assumption of "automatic consent" invention that is being pushed here, to share our data - in this case in form of DPS meter. And this is what this thread is about. This tool is provided by 3rd party developer that we never agreed to be part of our agreement with ArenaNet.

As mentioned before, dps number and other combat related data can be considered our behavioral data which means is under privacy protection. ArenaNet can't just claim they own this data and whatever they want with this without our consent. They own the service and its assets, they don't own how we play.

This is what I'm bringing up since the beginning of this thread. If they want to allow DPS meter tool that allows to monitor our game behaviour, this tool should come with an option to consent to share data to the tool itself and other players. Currently, even if I'm not using this tool, ArenaNet without my consent or even knowledge demands me to assume people are doing this by default.

This is why I am asking to review the policy and change it to honor players' privacy, security and ownership of our behavioral data.

Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.

@Kiamu.8295 said:DPS meters are the downfall of every mmorpg. Dps meters cause a hostile enviorment, it's a cancer I wish these Devs would plain out stick to "NO" instead of giving in, The Raid King of MMO's ... WOW it caused a cancer of asshats that caused a hostile enviorment and toxic community. I won't pay for a game with people counting on those meters more than enjoying a game...... it's a game to have fun not to have another part time job.

Thanks

Since most people are american here. Please make the analogy with gun laws.

People are toxic, not the tools. There wasnt dps meters at the beginning of gw2, of raids. That didnt stop toxism and elitism.

People are Toxic because of the tools that give them the right to be, Take the tools away and they can't be Toxic about that one tool now can they?

They wanted a gun analogy so let's give them one: give a weapon to a mad man and he'll kill you. If weapons didn't exist then he might be annoying in different ways but you'd still be alive. There are ways to increase toxicity in games. Whether dps meters are a major contributing factor is still unknown but if you play with pugs it sure feels like giving a gun to a psycho and telling him to "have fun" since it's used for drama, kickfests and whinning. Note that I haven't been excluded before for low dps, it's just the overall drama and whiny atmosphere that pisses me off. Remove the tool they use to moan and they will keep the moaning to themselves.

Horrible analogy people will kill with out guns, anything can be used in that manner, History shows us this. History also shows us before Combat Meters ever existed in GW2 that those same toxic players were just as toxic using other means to kick/belittle people, the Meter doesn’t change this behavior and it actually promotes accurate data which improves the health of the game over all otherwise it will all be based on feeling and arbitrary things that people are being griefed about, it’s a simple concept really.

Meters are designed to encourage competitive measurement, it's design builds a culture where numbers > people. As for Guns its not really an appropriate thing to compare with in a games forum but look at the average kill rate per head in first world countries - USA is in the lead by a mile and is so desensitised and perverse it actually has to debate things like silencers while being influenced by lobbying.

Hmm that logic is flawed on so many levels, let’s look at countries without guns and compare to those that have guns of course the countries with guns Will have the potential for more deaths by guns, look at those countries with fewer/no guns and see their deaths by other means like knives and so on, try to compare homicide rates per capita vs cherry picked numbers then you would have a good argument to go off of, but hey that’s just common sense. So again the gun analogy was a horrible analogy because people will kill with whatever means they can if they want to.

Again Combat Meters don’t do anything or cause behavior, the behavior exists no matter what and those same people will be toxic by any means they can as shown by history.

yes the country with guns will have the potential for more death by guns. thats EXACTLY the point, countries with knives instead if guns in first world countries do not in fact 'compensate' with more knife deaths. Its obvioulsy really, you cant try to kill 500 hundred people with a knife from a hotel room. In saying that, Guns is a poor comparison (I didnt suggest this)

As for damage meters, it is a tool designed to measure performance, therefore this encorages a culture where performance is more important - even when in a non competitive environment. On top of that you have human behaviour that changes when there is a percention of being monitored.

Look up Homicide rates internationally it shows that what you said is kinda wrong in respect to rates of other deaths increasing due to absence of other means, look at the UK with the advent of stricter firearm control Violent assaults by knife attack and homicide by knife attacks have increased, the same is true for Australia. if someone is of a will to kill they will by any means, and let’s use the poorly thought out gun analogy America has the most guns per capita of any other country but isn’t near the top of Homicides by firearm per capita funnily enough. But we digress.

Again combat Meters don’t cause any toxicity and so far has not been proven to increase toxicity, but it has been proven to increase the health of the game on increasing who and what players will accept into hard group content if they so choose. Funny how that works right?

Toxicity existed before based on arbitrary irrelevant reasons before and even if Combat Meters were ever removed they would go back to those which does nothing for the health of the game.

[Panda.1967]

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Panda.1967 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Rennie.6750 said:

@Kiamu.8295 said:

@Deihnyx.6318 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:I would like to remind everyone that User Agreement and every other GW2 document we agree on are only applicable for Game itself and ArenaNet. This is absolutely impossible for the company to demand from the user to automatically accept that they are going to broadcast our data to 3rd party tool and take no responsibility for the outcome of such action.

As it was brought up before, ArenaNet is not the owner of the behavioral data we are providing - which means they are administrating how we play, but we, players, are owners of how we play the game. We should be asked, with no assumption of "automatic consent" invention that is being pushed here, to share our data - in this case in form of DPS meter. And this is what this thread is about. This tool is provided by 3rd party developer that we never agreed to be part of our agreement with ArenaNet.

As mentioned before, dps number and other combat related data can be considered our behavioral data which means is under privacy protection. ArenaNet can't just claim they own this data and whatever they want with this without our consent. They own the service and its assets, they don't own how we play.

This is what I'm bringing up since the beginning of this thread. If they want to allow DPS meter tool that allows to monitor our game behaviour, this tool should come with an option to consent to share data to the tool itself and other players. Currently, even if I'm not using this tool, ArenaNet without my consent or even knowledge demands me to assume people are doing this by default.

This is why I am asking to review the policy and change it to honor players' privacy, security and ownership of our behavioral data.

Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.

@Kiamu.8295 said:DPS meters are the downfall of every mmorpg. Dps meters cause a hostile enviorment, it's a cancer I wish these Devs would plain out stick to "NO" instead of giving in, The Raid King of MMO's ... WOW it caused a cancer of asshats that caused a hostile enviorment and toxic community. I won't pay for a game with people counting on those meters more than enjoying a game...... it's a game to have fun not to have another part time job.

Thanks

Since most people are american here. Please make the analogy with gun laws.

People are toxic, not the tools. There wasnt dps meters at the beginning of gw2, of raids. That didnt stop toxism and elitism.

People are Toxic because of the tools that give them the right to be, Take the tools away and they can't be Toxic about that one tool now can they?

They wanted a gun analogy so let's give them one: give a weapon to a mad man and he'll kill you. If weapons didn't exist then he might be annoying in different ways but you'd still be alive. There are ways to increase toxicity in games. Whether dps meters are a major contributing factor is still unknown but if you play with pugs it sure feels like giving a gun to a psycho and telling him to "have fun" since it's used for drama, kickfests and whinning. Note that I haven't been excluded before for low dps, it's just the overall drama and whiny atmosphere that pisses me off. Remove the tool they use to moan and they will keep the moaning to themselves.

Horrible analogy people will kill with out guns, anything can be used in that manner, History shows us this. History also shows us before Combat Meters ever existed in GW2 that those same toxic players were just as toxic using other means to kick/belittle people, the Meter doesn’t change this behavior and it actually promotes accurate data which improves the health of the game over all otherwise it will all be based on feeling and arbitrary things that people are being griefed about, it’s a simple concept really.

You seem to have completely missed the point.

No one is debating that this sort of behavior existed before meters. That's a well known fact. However, this sort of behavior has

increased

with the addition of meters. It was always there, but it is

worse now

. The kicks may not be as arbitrary and unfounded as before, but they have become

more frequent

. A dungeon/raid/fractal can be reasonably completed with 10K DPS, but doing under 30k gets you kicked. And this happens from groups that

DO NOT

advertise "speed run" or "30k DPS required". I'm sorry to break it to you but "EXP" or "Experienced" or "Expert" doesn't translate into "speed run", those terms translate to "Know's the mechanics and can complete them". I can know the mechanics and complete them without doing 30k+ DPS, does that mean I don't meet the requirements for an "experienced run"? No, it doesn't, they never said they wanted 30k+ DPS or that it was a Speed Run. Instead, they are using the DPS meter as an excuse to kick over rules they didn't outline. They are using the DPS meter to kick from runs that would have been successful anyways. There have been reports of people being kicked from runs that hadn't even had a single death or wipe, simply because they didn't meet some arbitrary DPS requirement that was never listed in the first place.

So is the proof of your claims that the Toxicity/behavior has increased. I shall wait.People keep saying that Meters are the cause of Toxicity in this thread alone.

So please enlighten us of the increase of Toxic before with the addition of Combat Meters.

I’ve asked for this proof of your claimed facts multiple times in this thread that you conveniently fail to answer or address.

The proof is all around you. Are you completely blind to the fact that topics such as this one pop up on a near weekly basis since the day DPS meters were allowed? These topics wouldn't be such heated points of debate if there wasn't any truth to them. Complaints about DPS meters would have almost completely disappeared if there wasn't toxicity tied to their presence. If you want tangible proof so badly, take the time to search the old forums and archives, see for yourself how much bigger of a problem DPS meters have created than the lack of them ever was. Not to mention the fact that we were told by ANet employees to report people who were using meaningless metrics such as AP, long before they ever approved of DPS meters. They made their stance clear on such methods of group restriction, it wasn't to be tolerated. If I could link you to one single article to give you your proof I would, but the proof of this is all over the forums, and can be seen on a daily basis in-game if you pay attention.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Panda.1967 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:So if I felt as strongly as the OP about this, I'd stop posting in this thread and instead of insisting that the policy needs to be revised, instead start a private conversation with @"deltaconnected.4058" about just what would be involved in making ArcDPS "opt in". The coder might be convinced that there's a need for it or the OP might realize it's really a lot more complicated than it sounds and perhaps not as important as they first thought.

Perhaps if he would actually engage in civilized conversation about the subject. But thus far, every time he has taken part in any discussion revolving around the subject he has attacked other players, and made it painfully clear that he has zero interest in even exploring the possibility of an opt-in feature. The only way such a feature will ever see the light of day in ArcDPS is if ArenaNet tells him it's a requirement.

deltaconnected is not a part of any agreement or not officialy related to GW2. He happened to create a tool, a very useful tool, that is being wrongly implemented because of faulty policy. I don't think anyone should beg a random person in game to make his tool work differently, it's 100% on ArenaNet to change the policy and force him to make changes or ban his tool altogether if he refuses to cooperate. It happened with BGDM and so can happen with arc.

ArcDPS complies with ANets policy and they have worked with the developer to ensure it does. BGDM was banned exactly because you could gear check with it, that IS an invasion of privacy and ANet took action against it.

@Lyger.5429 said:I still don't understand why Anet doesn't just make their own dps meters/build templates instead of relying on third party software. This way everyone that owns the game could have access to it without going out of their way to download new apps.

Because they like to encourage development of tools that work with the game.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Panda.1967 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Panda.1967 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Rennie.6750 said:

@Kiamu.8295 said:

@Deihnyx.6318 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:I would like to remind everyone that User Agreement and every other GW2 document we agree on are only applicable for Game itself and ArenaNet. This is absolutely impossible for the company to demand from the user to automatically accept that they are going to broadcast our data to 3rd party tool and take no responsibility for the outcome of such action.

As it was brought up before, ArenaNet is not the owner of the behavioral data we are providing - which means they are administrating how we play, but we, players, are owners of how we play the game. We should be asked, with no assumption of "automatic consent" invention that is being pushed here, to share our data - in this case in form of DPS meter. And this is what this thread is about. This tool is provided by 3rd party developer that we never agreed to be part of our agreement with ArenaNet.

As mentioned before, dps number and other combat related data can be considered our behavioral data which means is under privacy protection. ArenaNet can't just claim they own this data and whatever they want with this without our consent. They own the service and its assets, they don't own how we play.

This is what I'm bringing up since the beginning of this thread. If they want to allow DPS meter tool that allows to monitor our game behaviour, this tool should come with an option to consent to share data to the tool itself and other players. Currently, even if I'm not using this tool, ArenaNet without my consent or even knowledge demands me to assume people are doing this by default.

This is why I am asking to review the policy and change it to honor players' privacy, security and ownership of our behavioral data.

Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.

@Kiamu.8295 said:DPS meters are the downfall of every mmorpg. Dps meters cause a hostile enviorment, it's a cancer I wish these Devs would plain out stick to "NO" instead of giving in, The Raid King of MMO's ... WOW it caused a cancer of asshats that caused a hostile enviorment and toxic community. I won't pay for a game with people counting on those meters more than enjoying a game...... it's a game to have fun not to have another part time job.

Thanks

Since most people are american here. Please make the analogy with gun laws.

People are toxic, not the tools. There wasnt dps meters at the beginning of gw2, of raids. That didnt stop toxism and elitism.

People are Toxic because of the tools that give them the right to be, Take the tools away and they can't be Toxic about that one tool now can they?

They wanted a gun analogy so let's give them one: give a weapon to a mad man and he'll kill you. If weapons didn't exist then he might be annoying in different ways but you'd still be alive. There are ways to increase toxicity in games. Whether dps meters are a major contributing factor is still unknown but if you play with pugs it sure feels like giving a gun to a psycho and telling him to "have fun" since it's used for drama, kickfests and whinning. Note that I haven't been excluded before for low dps, it's just the overall drama and whiny atmosphere that pisses me off. Remove the tool they use to moan and they will keep the moaning to themselves.

Horrible analogy people will kill with out guns, anything can be used in that manner, History shows us this. History also shows us before Combat Meters ever existed in GW2 that those same toxic players were just as toxic using other means to kick/belittle people, the Meter doesn’t change this behavior and it actually promotes accurate data which improves the health of the game over all otherwise it will all be based on feeling and arbitrary things that people are being griefed about, it’s a simple concept really.

You seem to have completely missed the point.

No one is debating that this sort of behavior existed before meters. That's a well known fact. However, this sort of behavior has

increased

with the addition of meters. It was always there, but it is

worse now

. The kicks may not be as arbitrary and unfounded as before, but they have become

more frequent

. A dungeon/raid/fractal can be reasonably completed with 10K DPS, but doing under 30k gets you kicked. And this happens from groups that

DO NOT

advertise "speed run" or "30k DPS required". I'm sorry to break it to you but "EXP" or "Experienced" or "Expert" doesn't translate into "speed run", those terms translate to "Know's the mechanics and can complete them". I can know the mechanics and complete them without doing 30k+ DPS, does that mean I don't meet the requirements for an "experienced run"? No, it doesn't, they never said they wanted 30k+ DPS or that it was a Speed Run. Instead, they are using the DPS meter as an excuse to kick over rules they didn't outline. They are using the DPS meter to kick from runs that would have been successful anyways. There have been reports of people being kicked from runs that hadn't even had a single death or wipe, simply because they didn't meet some arbitrary DPS requirement that was never listed in the first place.

So is the proof of your claims that the Toxicity/behavior has increased. I shall wait.People keep saying that Meters are the cause of Toxicity in this thread alone.

So please enlighten us of the increase of Toxic before with the addition of Combat Meters.

I’ve asked for this proof of your claimed facts multiple times in this thread that you conveniently fail to answer or address.

The proof is all around you. Are you completely blind to the fact that topics such as this one pop up on a near weekly basis since the day DPS meters were allowed? These topics wouldn't be such heated points of debate if there wasn't any truth to them. Complaints about DPS meters would have almost completely disappeared if there wasn't toxicity tied to their presence. If you want tangible proof so badly, take the time to search the old forums and archives, see for yourself how much bigger of a problem DPS meters have created than the lack of them ever was. Not to mention the fact that we were told by ANet employees to report people who were using meaningless metrics such as AP, long before they ever approved of DPS meters. They made their stance clear on such methods of group restriction, it wasn't to be tolerated. If I could link you to one single article to give you your proof I would, but the proof of this is all over the forums, and can be seen on a daily basis in-game if you pay attention.

So you have no actual proof, because I can show you more threads showing Toxicity was more rampant before Combat Meters ever existed in game, which by using your logic would “prove” that Combat Meters have reduced toxicity significantly.

So I shall sit back and wait for some real proof of the Toxicity has increased.

[Feanor.2358]

@Panda.1967 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Panda.1967 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Rennie.6750 said:

@Kiamu.8295 said:

@Deihnyx.6318 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:I would like to remind everyone that User Agreement and every other GW2 document we agree on are only applicable for Game itself and ArenaNet. This is absolutely impossible for the company to demand from the user to automatically accept that they are going to broadcast our data to 3rd party tool and take no responsibility for the outcome of such action.

As it was brought up before, ArenaNet is not the owner of the behavioral data we are providing - which means they are administrating how we play, but we, players, are owners of how we play the game. We should be asked, with no assumption of "automatic consent" invention that is being pushed here, to share our data - in this case in form of DPS meter. And this is what this thread is about. This tool is provided by 3rd party developer that we never agreed to be part of our agreement with ArenaNet.

As mentioned before, dps number and other combat related data can be considered our behavioral data which means is under privacy protection. ArenaNet can't just claim they own this data and whatever they want with this without our consent. They own the service and its assets, they don't own how we play.

This is what I'm bringing up since the beginning of this thread. If they want to allow DPS meter tool that allows to monitor our game behaviour, this tool should come with an option to consent to share data to the tool itself and other players. Currently, even if I'm not using this tool, ArenaNet without my consent or even knowledge demands me to assume people are doing this by default.

This is why I am asking to review the policy and change it to honor players' privacy, security and ownership of our behavioral data.

Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.

@Kiamu.8295 said:DPS meters are the downfall of every mmorpg. Dps meters cause a hostile enviorment, it's a cancer I wish these Devs would plain out stick to "NO" instead of giving in, The Raid King of MMO's ... WOW it caused a cancer of asshats that caused a hostile enviorment and toxic community. I won't pay for a game with people counting on those meters more than enjoying a game...... it's a game to have fun not to have another part time job.

Thanks

Since most people are american here. Please make the analogy with gun laws.

People are toxic, not the tools. There wasnt dps meters at the beginning of gw2, of raids. That didnt stop toxism and elitism.

People are Toxic because of the tools that give them the right to be, Take the tools away and they can't be Toxic about that one tool now can they?

They wanted a gun analogy so let's give them one: give a weapon to a mad man and he'll kill you. If weapons didn't exist then he might be annoying in different ways but you'd still be alive. There are ways to increase toxicity in games. Whether dps meters are a major contributing factor is still unknown but if you play with pugs it sure feels like giving a gun to a psycho and telling him to "have fun" since it's used for drama, kickfests and whinning. Note that I haven't been excluded before for low dps, it's just the overall drama and whiny atmosphere that pisses me off. Remove the tool they use to moan and they will keep the moaning to themselves.

Horrible analogy people will kill with out guns, anything can be used in that manner, History shows us this. History also shows us before Combat Meters ever existed in GW2 that those same toxic players were just as toxic using other means to kick/belittle people, the Meter doesn’t change this behavior and it actually promotes accurate data which improves the health of the game over all otherwise it will all be based on feeling and arbitrary things that people are being griefed about, it’s a simple concept really.

You seem to have completely missed the point.

No one is debating that this sort of behavior existed before meters. That's a well known fact. However, this sort of behavior has

increased

with the addition of meters. It was always there, but it is

worse now

. The kicks may not be as arbitrary and unfounded as before, but they have become

more frequent

. A dungeon/raid/fractal can be reasonably completed with 10K DPS, but doing under 30k gets you kicked. And this happens from groups that

DO NOT

advertise "speed run" or "30k DPS required". I'm sorry to break it to you but "EXP" or "Experienced" or "Expert" doesn't translate into "speed run", those terms translate to "Know's the mechanics and can complete them". I can know the mechanics and complete them without doing 30k+ DPS, does that mean I don't meet the requirements for an "experienced run"? No, it doesn't, they never said they wanted 30k+ DPS or that it was a Speed Run. Instead, they are using the DPS meter as an excuse to kick over rules they didn't outline. They are using the DPS meter to kick from runs that would have been successful anyways. There have been reports of people being kicked from runs that hadn't even had a single death or wipe, simply because they didn't meet some arbitrary DPS requirement that was never listed in the first place.

So is the proof of your claims that the Toxicity/behavior has increased. I shall wait.People keep saying that Meters are the cause of Toxicity in this thread alone.

So please enlighten us of the increase of Toxic before with the addition of Combat Meters.

I’ve asked for this proof of your claimed facts multiple times in this thread that you conveniently fail to answer or address.

The proof is all around you. Are you completely blind to the fact that topics such as this one pop up on a near weekly basis since the day DPS meters were allowed?

This proves nothing. People just found new way to rationalize for them getting kicked, while still missing the actual issue. Not surprising, since it's always hard to accept you are the actual issue. Try again.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@Panda.1967 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:So if I felt as strongly as the OP about this, I'd stop posting in this thread and instead of insisting that the policy needs to be revised, instead start a private conversation with @"deltaconnected.4058" about just what would be involved in making ArcDPS "opt in". The coder might be convinced that there's a need for it or the OP might realize it's really a lot more complicated than it sounds and perhaps not as important as they first thought.

Perhaps if he would actually engage in civilized conversation about the subject. But thus far, every time he has taken part in any discussion revolving around the subject he has attacked other players, and made it painfully clear that he has zero interest in even exploring the possibility of an opt-in feature. The only way such a feature will ever see the light of day in ArcDPS is if ArenaNet tells him it's a requirement.

Every time I've engaged 'delta' politely, we've managed a civilized conversation, even though we have differed strongly in our views about meters (and about the original differences between BGDM and ArcDPS) . So, no, it's not clear to me at all what would happen if the OP wanted to discuss this privately.

Of course, if one begins the conversation with a closed mind about any possibility of collaboration, then I'm sure you're right that it wouldn't prove productive.

---

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

deltaconnected is not a part of any agreement or not officialy related to GW2. He happened to create a tool, a very useful tool, that is being wrongly implemented because of faulty policy. I don't think anyone should beg a random person in game to make his tool work differently, it's 100% on ArenaNet to change the policy and force him to make changes or ban his tool altogether if he refuses to cooperate. It happened with BGDM and so can happen with arc.

Well, don't beg him. Talk to him (or her? I don't know if they've confirmed their gender). All sorts of features are present in Arc that are a result of 'delta' chatting with others and sometimes being convinced that something would be useful.

You've seen Cleary's post: ANet isn't changing the policy any time soon. Even if Cleary agreed with you in principle (which he does not), it would be weeks or months before ANet finished in-house discussions about how to word the policy and how to enforce it. It would also take time to negotiate with 'delta', so as not to leave current Arc-users in the lurch.

So again, if this is something that you really want, talk to the person who can make it happen.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

@Panda.1967 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Panda.1967 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Rennie.6750 said:

@Kiamu.8295 said:

@Deihnyx.6318 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:I would like to remind everyone that User Agreement and every other GW2 document we agree on are only applicable for Game itself and ArenaNet. This is absolutely impossible for the company to demand from the user to automatically accept that they are going to broadcast our data to 3rd party tool and take no responsibility for the outcome of such action.

As it was brought up before, ArenaNet is not the owner of the behavioral data we are providing - which means they are administrating how we play, but we, players, are owners of how we play the game. We should be asked, with no assumption of "automatic consent" invention that is being pushed here, to share our data - in this case in form of DPS meter. And this is what this thread is about. This tool is provided by 3rd party developer that we never agreed to be part of our agreement with ArenaNet.

As mentioned before, dps number and other combat related data can be considered our behavioral data which means is under privacy protection. ArenaNet can't just claim they own this data and whatever they want with this without our consent. They own the service and its assets, they don't own how we play.

This is what I'm bringing up since the beginning of this thread. If they want to allow DPS meter tool that allows to monitor our game behaviour, this tool should come with an option to consent to share data to the tool itself and other players. Currently, even if I'm not using this tool, ArenaNet without my consent or even knowledge demands me to assume people are doing this by default.

This is why I am asking to review the policy and change it to honor players' privacy, security and ownership of our behavioral data.

Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.

@Kiamu.8295 said:DPS meters are the downfall of every mmorpg. Dps meters cause a hostile enviorment, it's a cancer I wish these Devs would plain out stick to "NO" instead of giving in, The Raid King of MMO's ... WOW it caused a cancer of asshats that caused a hostile enviorment and toxic community. I won't pay for a game with people counting on those meters more than enjoying a game...... it's a game to have fun not to have another part time job.

Thanks

Since most people are american here. Please make the analogy with gun laws.

People are toxic, not the tools. There wasnt dps meters at the beginning of gw2, of raids. That didnt stop toxism and elitism.

People are Toxic because of the tools that give them the right to be, Take the tools away and they can't be Toxic about that one tool now can they?

They wanted a gun analogy so let's give them one: give a weapon to a mad man and he'll kill you. If weapons didn't exist then he might be annoying in different ways but you'd still be alive. There are ways to increase toxicity in games. Whether dps meters are a major contributing factor is still unknown but if you play with pugs it sure feels like giving a gun to a psycho and telling him to "have fun" since it's used for drama, kickfests and whinning. Note that I haven't been excluded before for low dps, it's just the overall drama and whiny atmosphere that pisses me off. Remove the tool they use to moan and they will keep the moaning to themselves.

Horrible analogy people will kill with out guns, anything can be used in that manner, History shows us this. History also shows us before Combat Meters ever existed in GW2 that those same toxic players were just as toxic using other means to kick/belittle people, the Meter doesn’t change this behavior and it actually promotes accurate data which improves the health of the game over all otherwise it will all be based on feeling and arbitrary things that people are being griefed about, it’s a simple concept really.

You seem to have completely missed the point.

No one is debating that this sort of behavior existed before meters. That's a well known fact. However, this sort of behavior has

increased

with the addition of meters. It was always there, but it is

worse now

. The kicks may not be as arbitrary and unfounded as before, but they have become

more frequent

. A dungeon/raid/fractal can be reasonably completed with 10K DPS, but doing under 30k gets you kicked. And this happens from groups that

DO NOT

advertise "speed run" or "30k DPS required". I'm sorry to break it to you but "EXP" or "Experienced" or "Expert" doesn't translate into "speed run", those terms translate to "Know's the mechanics and can complete them". I can know the mechanics and complete them without doing 30k+ DPS, does that mean I don't meet the requirements for an "experienced run"? No, it doesn't, they never said they wanted 30k+ DPS or that it was a Speed Run. Instead, they are using the DPS meter as an excuse to kick over rules they didn't outline. They are using the DPS meter to kick from runs that would have been successful anyways. There have been reports of people being kicked from runs that hadn't even had a single death or wipe, simply because they didn't meet some arbitrary DPS requirement that was never listed in the first place.

So is the proof of your claims that the Toxicity/behavior has increased. I shall wait.People keep saying that Meters are the cause of Toxicity in this thread alone.

So please enlighten us of the increase of Toxic before with the addition of Combat Meters.

I’ve asked for this proof of your claimed facts multiple times in this thread that you conveniently fail to answer or address.

The proof is all around you. Are you completely blind to the fact that topics such as this one pop up on a near weekly basis since the day DPS meters were allowed? These topics wouldn't be such heated points of debate if there wasn't any truth to them. Complaints about DPS meters would have almost completely disappeared if there wasn't toxicity tied to their presence. If you want tangible proof so badly, take the time to search the old forums and archives, see for yourself how much bigger of a problem DPS meters have created than the lack of them ever was. Not to mention the fact that we were told by ANet employees to report people who were using meaningless metrics such as AP, long before they ever approved of DPS meters. They made their stance clear on such methods of group restriction, it wasn't to be tolerated. If I could link you to one single article to give you your proof I would, but the proof of this is all over the forums, and can be seen on a daily basis in-game if you pay attention.

The toxicity goes both ways man, people want to use the DPS meter to kick lazy people who want to be carried, what do you suggest is an answer to that? If people didn't do that, there would be no need for the meter to know what they are doing in the 1st place.

[Syktek.7912]

@Chris Cleary.8017 said:Since this thread has really exploded, and there seems to be some possible misunderstanding about privacy here, I'll comment.

The current implementation of DPS meters is nothing more than a re-presentation of information already being transmitted by the game server to all clients in the reporting radius. Combat data does not have player ownership as it is being generated by the game server and then transmitted in order to update the status of the world state.

Essentially since the server is running a calculation/simulation based on actions by all the clients in the area, it owns the subsequent reporting of all calculations both literally and legally.

This is different for situations like chat, where there is no impact or simulation necessary and essentially is a forwarding service that the server is simply handling the reporting of the client action.

Regional laws change, if at some point change is required, we will revisit it at that time. I would suggest visiting the Guild Wars 2 User Agreement if you are unsure of anything privacy related for Guild Wars 2.

Here to stay. :)

[dusanyu.4057]

This thread Highlights why I wont raid perfectly (and why a format like raids were bad for GW2) I play this game for fun and relax after work and that does not include having some no life going all nerd rage at me because my skill rotation is bad or i chose a specialization that made more logical seance to me than what the qt page lists. I play this game for My entertainment and will only play with people of the same mentality that they are here to have fun and, the fun is the experience of the content fot in numbers or playing with people who are robot good with there rotation. I ran into one of these DPS meter users in Fractles as we needed a extra person to fill out the group so a pug was grabbed. They started squawking about DPS meter numbers and quickly found them-self alone in that instance.

I don't like the meters and refuse to play with people who squawk about the numbers so I leave the group and find another after i Kindly tell them to take there meter and place it where the sun does not shine. But i am defiantly not going to head to the forums and Cry about it i would rather go have fun in game.

[Belorn.2659]

@dusanyu.4057That is perfectly fine. When I go farm currency I don't do it as competitive activity. I do it as form of relaxing meditation, and since it solo, I don't get any rage from anyone if I take a break, watch TV while doing it, or perform suboptimal. The game has all kind of content that is suited for different play styles and different levels of engagement. Enjoy the part you enjoy, and don't do things you don't enjoy. Perfect way to live.

[Forum Moderator.4372]

While we realize this is a topic many are passionate about, this thread continues to devolve and is being closed.