DPS meter policy needs to be revised

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Panda.1967 said:

@Llethander.3972 said:

@Shirlias.8104 said:

@Llethander.3972 said:

@Panda.1967 said:Technically it can endanger the lives of others. Have you ever heard of something called Internet Bullying? If not you should look it up. There have been documented cases of people being driven to suicide over it, some of which originated from harassment revolving around use of DPS meters in online games. So, yes, DPS meters have actually resulted in real life deaths.

Being kicked out of a party because you are not adequately contributing to the content is most certainly not comparable to cyber bullying.

It is disrespectful towards the ones who created the party. And still players don't get it.

That's nice. But what if the one using the DPS meter is the one who created the party and s/he decides to kick someone for underperforming? It's most certainly

not

comparable to cyber bullying. I'm finding it difficult to see relevance to what I said or what I was responding to in your comment.

If you get kicked from a party for underperforming it's a simple matter of moving on and getting over it. It's a game and, therefore, not the end of the world.

There is a distinction between being kicked for underperforming, and harassment. And, yes, harassment over DPS meters happens. It's easy to say "just add the person on ignore and move on" but in reality, that doesn't solve the problem. The people who use DPS meters to harass others still exist, they still play the game, and they still harass others. And some people have the misfortune of running into such people on a regular basis. There are even a lot of people who's behavior over DPS meters falls under harassment, even though they don't intend it to be. Some of them are apologetic when they realize it, others are not. I've personally encountered quite a few people like that. Many of the ones who are not apologetic about it, believe they have done no wrong even when the facts are stacked against them. I was in a party once where a guy's behavior over the DPS meter crossed into harassment, and the entire party got onto him about it, his response was "I didn't mean to harass anyone, but you all should just grow a backbone. It's not like I actually did anything wrong." needless to say we promptly kicked the guy afterwards.

I have seen this sort of behavior across several MMOs. It's the same in all of them. And every single one of them has had a marked increase in such behavior the instant DPS meters appeared on them. GW2 is no exception to this. Yes, we had people who acted like this before DPS meters, but the number of people who behave in this manner INCREASED when DPS meters were allowed. Some people want to be jerks but won't act on impulses unless they have empirical data to back them up, or unless things just stack up to a point that they just go off. Give these people DPS meters, and they WILL use the information on them as a weapon.

Harassment was around long before Combat Meters were a thing based on inconsequential arbitrary things, also I would love to see your metrics/proof that shows Harassment increased.

[Lonecap.4105]

@Panda.1967 said:

@Llethander.3972 said:

@Shirlias.8104 said:

@Llethander.3972 said:

@Panda.1967 said:Technically it can endanger the lives of others. Have you ever heard of something called Internet Bullying? If not you should look it up. There have been documented cases of people being driven to suicide over it, some of which originated from harassment revolving around use of DPS meters in online games. So, yes, DPS meters have actually resulted in real life deaths.

Being kicked out of a party because you are not adequately contributing to the content is most certainly not comparable to cyber bullying.

It is disrespectful towards the ones who created the party. And still players don't get it.

That's nice. But what if the one using the DPS meter is the one who created the party and s/he decides to kick someone for underperforming? It's most certainly

not

comparable to cyber bullying. I'm finding it difficult to see relevance to what I said or what I was responding to in your comment.

If you get kicked from a party for underperforming it's a simple matter of moving on and getting over it. It's a game and, therefore, not the end of the world.

There is a distinction between being kicked for underperforming, and harassment. And, yes, harassment over DPS meters happens. It's easy to say "just add the person on ignore and move on" but in reality, that doesn't solve the problem. The people who use DPS meters to harass others still exist, they still play the game, and they still harass others. And some people have the misfortune of running into such people on a regular basis. There are even a lot of people who's behavior over DPS meters falls under harassment, even though they don't intend it to be. Some of them are apologetic when they realize it, others are not. I've personally encountered quite a few people like that. Many of the ones who are not apologetic about it, believe they have done no wrong even when the facts are stacked against them. I was in a party once where a guy's behavior over the DPS meter crossed into harassment, and the entire party got onto him about it, his response was "I didn't mean to harass anyone, but you all should just grow a backbone. It's not like I actually did anything wrong." needless to say we promptly kicked the guy afterwards.

I have seen this sort of behavior across several MMOs. It's the same in all of them. And every single one of them has had a marked increase in such behavior the instant DPS meters appeared on them. GW2 is no exception to this. Yes, we had people who acted like this before DPS meters, but the number of people who behave in this manner INCREASED when DPS meters were allowed. Some people want to be jerks but won't act on impulses unless they have empirical data to back them up, or unless things just stack up to a point that they just go off. Give these people DPS meters, and they WILL use the information on them as a weapon.

Has nothing to do with DPS meters.

Let's say we're in a math class together. Everyone is given a ruler (Arcdps). We're doing hard math, and rulers are a useful tool for helping us. Some people in the class like me use their rulers properly, and complete the work sensibly. But then there's Joe. Joe is a bad, nasty guy. He gets a ruler too. And he hits Sarah with the ruler. Now Sarah wants everyone to have their rulers taken away, because Joe was nasty with his.

So naturally, everyone's ruler is taken from them, and they have to suck it up. No, that isn't what happens. Joe is sent out of the room and we all get back on with things. So if someone is harassing you then report and block. Send the proverbial Joe out of the class.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@Panda.1967 said:

@Llethander.3972 said:

@Shirlias.8104 said:

@Llethander.3972 said:

@Panda.1967 said:Technically it can endanger the lives of others. Have you ever heard of something called Internet Bullying? If not you should look it up. There have been documented cases of people being driven to suicide over it, some of which originated from harassment revolving around use of DPS meters in online games. So, yes, DPS meters have actually resulted in real life deaths.

Being kicked out of a party because you are not adequately contributing to the content is most certainly not comparable to cyber bullying.

It is disrespectful towards the ones who created the party. And still players don't get it.

That's nice. But what if the one using the DPS meter is the one who created the party and s/he decides to kick someone for underperforming? It's most certainly

not

comparable to cyber bullying. I'm finding it difficult to see relevance to what I said or what I was responding to in your comment.

If you get kicked from a party for underperforming it's a simple matter of moving on and getting over it. It's a game and, therefore, not the end of the world.

There is a distinction between being kicked for underperforming, and harassment. And, yes, harassment over DPS meters happens. It's easy to say "just add the person on ignore and move on" but in reality, that doesn't solve the problem. The people who use DPS meters to harass others still exist, they still play the game, and they still harass others. And some people have the misfortune of running into such people on a regular basis. There are even a lot of people who's behavior over DPS meters falls under harassment, even though they don't intend it to be. Some of them are apologetic when they realize it, others are not. I've personally encountered quite a few people like that. Many of the ones who are not apologetic about it, believe they have done no wrong even when the facts are stacked against them. I was in a party once where a guy's behavior over the DPS meter crossed into harassment, and the entire party got onto him about it, his response was "I didn't mean to harass anyone, but you all should just grow a backbone. It's not like I actually did anything wrong." needless to say we promptly kicked the guy afterwards.

I have seen this sort of behavior across several MMOs. It's the same in all of them. And every single one of them has had a marked increase in such behavior the instant DPS meters appeared on them. GW2 is no exception to this. Yes, we had people who acted like this before DPS meters, but the number of people who behave in this manner INCREASED when DPS meters were allowed. Some people want to be jerks but won't act on impulses unless they have empirical data to back them up, or unless things just stack up to a point that they just go off. Give these people DPS meters, and they WILL use the information on them as a weapon.

Has nothing to do with DPS meters.

Let's say we're in a math class together. Everyone is given a ruler (Arcdps). We're doing hard math, and rulers are a useful tool for helping us. Some people in the class like me use their rulers properly, and complete the work sensibly. But then there's Joe. Joe is a bad, nasty guy. He gets a ruler too. And he hits Sarah with the ruler. Now Sarah wants everyone to have their rulers taken away, because Joe was nasty with his.

So naturally, everyone's ruler is taken from them, and they have to suck it up. No, that isn't what happens. Joe is sent out of the room and we all get back on with things. So if someone is harassing you then report and block. Send the proverbial Joe out of the class.

which would be perfect..except thats not what happens, there is no teacher and there is no banning. worse the ruler measure 1 dimension - length, it doesnt measure emotional intelligence, it doesnt measure cognitive ability, it doesn't measure social behavoir - in fact it only measures length.

[Cyprien.4208]

Anet doesn't care the core of playing how you like went out the window along time ago.

Sure I dislike dps meters however as long they keep it to them selfs and don't shove it in my face I don't mind it so much.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:I want to stress out my issue with DPS meters. I am not in peace with the fact that after 4 years ArenaNet decide to walk away from their principles and allowed players to use this tool. I understand that it's easier to allow certain tool and cooperate with the dev to make it compliant to game rules instead of chasing players using it in the background.

However,

allowing this tool has come with certain oversight

that I hope ArenaNet is going to consider and fix soon.

Since the only allowed DPS meter at this point is ArcDPS I'm going to refer to it and its creator - deltaconnected - in this thread.

I accept that players have different goals

and big succesful game like Guild Wars 2 should provide content and tools for different groups of players.

Therefore I agree that DPS meter has its uses and there are people who benefit from using it

and I am not going to advocate for 100% deletion of this tool.

Yet there is one thing I have issue with. I do not understand how is it possible that every player using this tool is 100% allowed to monitor my performance in game without my consent. I am not using this tool. So why is it possible for random people watch my DPS numbers?

I find this a big issue in terms of player privacy in game.

ArenaNet does not allow gear inspections or naming and shaming exactly because of respect for players' privacy. After changing forums engine they even deleted tools like "thumbs down" under our posts to not spread unnecessary negativity amongst the community.

This is why I don't understand why they allowed people to spy on other players' performance (numbers, dps, whatever you call it) without our consent.

If the tool has to exist in the game,

make it clear that it is by default only to monitor numbers of a player using it unless other players in group agree to share their numbers.

I think the DPS meters policy needs to be revied. This tool can cause unnecessary toxicity in groups, especially because me, as a player, have no power to control who's spying on me in game. I have no option to block other players watching me, I have no option to see who's using this tool and who isn't. And this is why I believe the only fair solution is to make deltaconnected change how ArcDPS works.

It should be limited to personal DPS only unless other players agree to share their numbers from the tool

.

Every party/squad leader has every right to require this tool in group content (since it's allowed) and every other player should be allowed to not agree to other players spying on their numbers.

I think this is very reasonable request that gives players back power over their accounts and their privacy that is currently violated by usage of ArcDPS.

---

EDIT: I am well aware I'm going to be accused of poor performance myself, taking revenge for being kicked etc. Well, that's not my story, sorry to disappoint. This tool is used outside of raids and even in raids, there is no requirement of doing top dps for anyone.

Every group has every right to request me to use the meter and share dps with them. But it should be my decision to join, not expect by default that every player in the game may or may not use this tool and judge me.

---

EDIT2: BGDM worked like this. People couldn't see your numbers unless you joined their server and share your numbers. It was okay then and this whole sub was fixated about this tool. Why is it bad now?

---

EDIT3: This repost has been made to respect forums rules.

Joining someone else’s group is you consenting to Combat Meters, Anet has stated this, they have also stated that Combat information is not private information, so no players privacy is infringed upon, and consent is given at time of joining someone else’s group, all things covered by Anets statements on Combat meters.

If you don’t like Combat Meters only start your own groups, and kick anyone that uses them for toxic reasons, pretty simple concept.

But if I create my own group I have no power to know who uses this tool. People can ignore my LFG, join MY group and kick me. My request is to avoid such situation, so I can actually do what you suggest - make my group and control the fact that others can't spy on me without my consent. Currently random person using this tool has an advantage over me using vanilla game client without hacks. This is ridiculous situation.

[Lonecap.4105]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@Panda.1967 said:

@Llethander.3972 said:

@Shirlias.8104 said:

@Llethander.3972 said:

@Panda.1967 said:Technically it can endanger the lives of others. Have you ever heard of something called Internet Bullying? If not you should look it up. There have been documented cases of people being driven to suicide over it, some of which originated from harassment revolving around use of DPS meters in online games. So, yes, DPS meters have actually resulted in real life deaths.

Being kicked out of a party because you are not adequately contributing to the content is most certainly not comparable to cyber bullying.

It is disrespectful towards the ones who created the party. And still players don't get it.

That's nice. But what if the one using the DPS meter is the one who created the party and s/he decides to kick someone for underperforming? It's most certainly

not

comparable to cyber bullying. I'm finding it difficult to see relevance to what I said or what I was responding to in your comment.

If you get kicked from a party for underperforming it's a simple matter of moving on and getting over it. It's a game and, therefore, not the end of the world.

There is a distinction between being kicked for underperforming, and harassment. And, yes, harassment over DPS meters happens. It's easy to say "just add the person on ignore and move on" but in reality, that doesn't solve the problem. The people who use DPS meters to harass others still exist, they still play the game, and they still harass others. And some people have the misfortune of running into such people on a regular basis. There are even a lot of people who's behavior over DPS meters falls under harassment, even though they don't intend it to be. Some of them are apologetic when they realize it, others are not. I've personally encountered quite a few people like that. Many of the ones who are not apologetic about it, believe they have done no wrong even when the facts are stacked against them. I was in a party once where a guy's behavior over the DPS meter crossed into harassment, and the entire party got onto him about it, his response was "I didn't mean to harass anyone, but you all should just grow a backbone. It's not like I actually did anything wrong." needless to say we promptly kicked the guy afterwards.

I have seen this sort of behavior across several MMOs. It's the same in all of them. And every single one of them has had a marked increase in such behavior the instant DPS meters appeared on them. GW2 is no exception to this. Yes, we had people who acted like this before DPS meters, but the number of people who behave in this manner INCREASED when DPS meters were allowed. Some people want to be jerks but won't act on impulses unless they have empirical data to back them up, or unless things just stack up to a point that they just go off. Give these people DPS meters, and they WILL use the information on them as a weapon.

Has nothing to do with DPS meters.

Let's say we're in a math class together. Everyone is given a ruler (Arcdps). We're doing hard math, and rulers are a useful tool for helping us. Some people in the class like me use their rulers properly, and complete the work sensibly. But then there's Joe. Joe is a bad, nasty guy. He gets a ruler too. And he hits Sarah with the ruler. Now Sarah wants everyone to have their rulers taken away, because Joe was nasty with his.

So naturally, everyone's ruler is taken from them, and they have to suck it up. No, that isn't what happens. Joe is sent out of the room and we all get back on with things. So if someone is harassing you then report and block. Send the proverbial Joe out of the class.

which would be perfect..except thats not what happens, there is no teacher and there is no banning. worse the ruler measure 1 dimension - length, it doesnt measure emotional intelligence, it doesnt measure cognitive ability, it doesn't measure social behavoir - in fact it only measures length.

But emotional intelligence just isn't really all that helpful in difficult content. It measures the only thing really worth measuring in that setting. If you want to be valued in those things, then you should join a social guild. That's totally different. And it depends how hard Joe hit Sarah. If Joe was messing around and didn't really hurt her, he doesn't deserve a "ban". But if he really went to town on the poor girl, then I'm sure appropriate action would be taken by the "teacher" (Anet). If you think they don't taken severe enough action, well that's getting off topic. Who are we to say if they do and don't? And again, it depends on how bad the harassment was. Was there insulting? Or just nagging? It depends.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@Cyprien.4208 said:Anet doesn't care the core of playing how you like went out the window along time ago.

Sure I dislike dps meters however as long they keep it to them selfs and don't shove it in my face I don't mind it so much.

Agree with this, raids need dps meters thatas a given, and as a personal tool its fine, or when its advertised as a prerequisite for a give group.

ps meters are not needed in non tuned content, especiually stuff that is years old. This is just a crutch for those that think instances = speed runs for mind dead gear farming, and those that have learned how to rote patterns into their muscles but are incapable of improvisation (aka not a mindless rotation!)

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Zenith.7301 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:I want to stress out my issue with DPS meters. I am not in peace with the fact that after 4 years ArenaNet decide to walk away from their principles and allowed players to use this tool. I understand that it's easier to allow certain tool and cooperate with the dev to make it compliant to game rules instead of chasing players using it in the background.

However,

allowing this tool has come with certain oversight

that I hope ArenaNet is going to consider and fix soon.

Since the only allowed DPS meter at this point is ArcDPS I'm going to refer to it and its creator - deltaconnected - in this thread.

I accept that players have different goals

and big succesful game like Guild Wars 2 should provide content and tools for different groups of players.

Therefore I agree that DPS meter has its uses and there are people who benefit from using it

and I am not going to advocate for 100% deletion of this tool.

Yet there is one thing I have issue with. I do not understand how is it possible that every player using this tool is 100% allowed to monitor my performance in game without my consent. I am not using this tool. So why is it possible for random people watch my DPS numbers?

I find this a big issue in terms of player privacy in game.

ArenaNet does not allow gear inspections or naming and shaming exactly because of respect for players' privacy. After changing forums engine they even deleted tools like "thumbs down" under our posts to not spread unnecessary negativity amongst the community.

This is why I don't understand why they allowed people to spy on other players' performance (numbers, dps, whatever you call it) without our consent.

If the tool has to exist in the game,

make it clear that it is by default only to monitor numbers of a player using it unless other players in group agree to share their numbers.

I think the DPS meters policy needs to be revied. This tool can cause unnecessary toxicity in groups, especially because me, as a player, have no power to control who's spying on me in game. I have no option to block other players watching me, I have no option to see who's using this tool and who isn't. And this is why I believe the only fair solution is to make deltaconnected change how ArcDPS works.

It should be limited to personal DPS only unless other players agree to share their numbers from the tool

.

Every party/squad leader has every right to require this tool in group content (since it's allowed) and every other player should be allowed to not agree to other players spying on their numbers.

I think this is very reasonable request that gives players back power over their accounts and their privacy that is currently violated by usage of ArcDPS.

---

EDIT: I am well aware I'm going to be accused of poor performance myself, taking revenge for being kicked etc. Well, that's not my story, sorry to disappoint. This tool is used outside of raids and even in raids, there is no requirement of doing top dps for anyone.

Every group has every right to request me to use the meter and share dps with them. But it should be my decision to join, not expect by default that every player in the game may or may not use this tool and judge me.

---

EDIT2: BGDM worked like this. People couldn't see your numbers unless you joined their server and share your numbers. It was okay then and this whole sub was fixated about this tool. Why is it bad now?

---

EDIT3: This repost has been made to respect forums rules.

Making people only able to see their own numbers makes the DPS meter obsolete, as a measure of performance is only useful as a relative measure to others in the group.

The whole point of a DPS meter is to be able to say with absolute certainty who's the weak link in DPS performance in a group.

Are there special considerations? Sure, the engineer could have spent some time rezzing or breaking a CC bar and have lower DPS, but such tasks are obvious to a competent group.

What's not acceptable is that one mainhand axe power necromancer or staff weaver doing diddly squat for DPS, holding the group back.

I'm not denying anyone their right to use dps meters or request me to use one. But it should be MY decision that you can watch my performance. If I don't agree - kick me, that's your right. But give me back my power to decide about my account.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:I want to stress out my issue with DPS meters. I am not in peace with the fact that after 4 years ArenaNet decide to walk away from their principles and allowed players to use this tool. I understand that it's easier to allow certain tool and cooperate with the dev to make it compliant to game rules instead of chasing players using it in the background.

However,

allowing this tool has come with certain oversight

that I hope ArenaNet is going to consider and fix soon.

Since the only allowed DPS meter at this point is ArcDPS I'm going to refer to it and its creator - deltaconnected - in this thread.

I accept that players have different goals

and big succesful game like Guild Wars 2 should provide content and tools for different groups of players.

Therefore I agree that DPS meter has its uses and there are people who benefit from using it

and I am not going to advocate for 100% deletion of this tool.

Yet there is one thing I have issue with. I do not understand how is it possible that every player using this tool is 100% allowed to monitor my performance in game without my consent. I am not using this tool. So why is it possible for random people watch my DPS numbers?

I find this a big issue in terms of player privacy in game.

ArenaNet does not allow gear inspections or naming and shaming exactly because of respect for players' privacy. After changing forums engine they even deleted tools like "thumbs down" under our posts to not spread unnecessary negativity amongst the community.

This is why I don't understand why they allowed people to spy on other players' performance (numbers, dps, whatever you call it) without our consent.

If the tool has to exist in the game,

make it clear that it is by default only to monitor numbers of a player using it unless other players in group agree to share their numbers.

I think the DPS meters policy needs to be revied. This tool can cause unnecessary toxicity in groups, especially because me, as a player, have no power to control who's spying on me in game. I have no option to block other players watching me, I have no option to see who's using this tool and who isn't. And this is why I believe the only fair solution is to make deltaconnected change how ArcDPS works.

It should be limited to personal DPS only unless other players agree to share their numbers from the tool

.

Every party/squad leader has every right to require this tool in group content (since it's allowed) and every other player should be allowed to not agree to other players spying on their numbers.

I think this is very reasonable request that gives players back power over their accounts and their privacy that is currently violated by usage of ArcDPS.

---

EDIT: I am well aware I'm going to be accused of poor performance myself, taking revenge for being kicked etc. Well, that's not my story, sorry to disappoint. This tool is used outside of raids and even in raids, there is no requirement of doing top dps for anyone.

Every group has every right to request me to use the meter and share dps with them. But it should be my decision to join, not expect by default that every player in the game may or may not use this tool and judge me.

---

EDIT2: BGDM worked like this. People couldn't see your numbers unless you joined their server and share your numbers. It was okay then and this whole sub was fixated about this tool. Why is it bad now?

---

EDIT3: This repost has been made to respect forums rules.

Making people only able to see their own numbers makes the DPS meter obsolete, as a measure of performance is only useful as a relative measure to others in the group.

The whole point of a DPS meter is to be able to say with absolute certainty who's the weak link in DPS performance in a group.

Are there special considerations? Sure, the engineer could have spent some time rezzing or breaking a CC bar and have lower DPS, but such tasks are obvious to a competent group.

What's not acceptable is that one mainhand axe power necromancer or staff weaver doing diddly squat for DPS, holding the group back.

I'm not denying anyone their right to use dps meters or request me to use one. But it should be MY decision that you can watch my performance. If I don't agree - kick me, that's your right. But give me back my power to decide about my account.

actually outwith raids, if they dont advertise that x dps is required, they are just being rude and anti social attempting to boot somebody who doesnt measure up to their mental image of a good player. Dont let them get you down, gaming is not actual about being 'meta dps' and supporting weak players can be very rewarding. When a better player tries to boot a perceived lesser player then they are part of the problem.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:I want to stress out my issue with DPS meters. I am not in peace with the fact that after 4 years ArenaNet decide to walk away from their principles and allowed players to use this tool. I understand that it's easier to allow certain tool and cooperate with the dev to make it compliant to game rules instead of chasing players using it in the background.

However,

allowing this tool has come with certain oversight

that I hope ArenaNet is going to consider and fix soon.

Since the only allowed DPS meter at this point is ArcDPS I'm going to refer to it and its creator - deltaconnected - in this thread.

I accept that players have different goals

and big succesful game like Guild Wars 2 should provide content and tools for different groups of players.

Therefore I agree that DPS meter has its uses and there are people who benefit from using it

and I am not going to advocate for 100% deletion of this tool.

Yet there is one thing I have issue with. I do not understand how is it possible that every player using this tool is 100% allowed to monitor my performance in game without my consent. I am not using this tool. So why is it possible for random people watch my DPS numbers?

I find this a big issue in terms of player privacy in game.

ArenaNet does not allow gear inspections or naming and shaming exactly because of respect for players' privacy. After changing forums engine they even deleted tools like "thumbs down" under our posts to not spread unnecessary negativity amongst the community.

This is why I don't understand why they allowed people to spy on other players' performance (numbers, dps, whatever you call it) without our consent.

If the tool has to exist in the game,

make it clear that it is by default only to monitor numbers of a player using it unless other players in group agree to share their numbers.

I think the DPS meters policy needs to be revied. This tool can cause unnecessary toxicity in groups, especially because me, as a player, have no power to control who's spying on me in game. I have no option to block other players watching me, I have no option to see who's using this tool and who isn't. And this is why I believe the only fair solution is to make deltaconnected change how ArcDPS works.

It should be limited to personal DPS only unless other players agree to share their numbers from the tool

.

Every party/squad leader has every right to require this tool in group content (since it's allowed) and every other player should be allowed to not agree to other players spying on their numbers.

I think this is very reasonable request that gives players back power over their accounts and their privacy that is currently violated by usage of ArcDPS.

---

EDIT: I am well aware I'm going to be accused of poor performance myself, taking revenge for being kicked etc. Well, that's not my story, sorry to disappoint. This tool is used outside of raids and even in raids, there is no requirement of doing top dps for anyone.

Every group has every right to request me to use the meter and share dps with them. But it should be my decision to join, not expect by default that every player in the game may or may not use this tool and judge me.

---

EDIT2: BGDM worked like this. People couldn't see your numbers unless you joined their server and share your numbers. It was okay then and this whole sub was fixated about this tool. Why is it bad now?

---

EDIT3: This repost has been made to respect forums rules.

Joining someone else’s group is you consenting to Combat Meters, Anet has stated this, they have also stated that Combat information is not private information, so no players privacy is infringed upon, and consent is given at time of joining someone else’s group, all things covered by Anets statements on Combat meters.

If you don’t like Combat Meters only start your own groups, and kick anyone that uses them for toxic reasons, pretty simple concept.

But if I create my own group I have no power to know who uses this tool. People can ignore my LFG, join MY group and kick me. My request is to avoid such situation, so I can actually do what you suggest - make my group and control the fact that others can't spy on me without my consent. Currently random person using this tool has an advantage over me using vanilla game client without hacks. This is ridiculous situation.

Again Post your group say no Combat Meters in the LFG and then when someone tries to be a toxic kitten using Combat Meter vote to kick them and report them, because I doubt there will be many people using Combat Meters to join your LFG post stating no Combat Meters, since those groups tend to attract others they wouldn’t want to group with, and they probably won’t just vote to kick you without raging in /p as the basis of your complaint stands upon so most times the 3 other people in your group will more than likely be of your mindset of no Combat Meters and won’t vote to kick you, since it takes 4 others to kick someone.

Also because there seems to be a lack of understanding here, Combat Data is in no way private or personal data/information especially in any group setting.

[Rauderi.8706]

Honest question, because I think I missed a step in the evolution of this meters thing.Is memory reading now allowed? I was under the impression that was part of the list of bannable offenses.

[Panda.1967]

@TheRandomGuy.7246 said:But what will you do about people who can estimate your contribution by looking at your rotation and buff panel. Aka the majority of players that care enough to use dps meter.

Wow... that is the biggest piece of misinformation I have ever seen... it's so wrong it's laughable. The number of people who can estimate someone's contribution by looking at their buffs and observing the attacks they can see, are far from a majority... they are as far from a majority as you can possibly even get. We're talking less than 1% of 1% here.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:I want to stress out my issue with DPS meters. I am not in peace with the fact that after 4 years ArenaNet decide to walk away from their principles and allowed players to use this tool. I understand that it's easier to allow certain tool and cooperate with the dev to make it compliant to game rules instead of chasing players using it in the background.

However,

allowing this tool has come with certain oversight

that I hope ArenaNet is going to consider and fix soon.

Since the only allowed DPS meter at this point is ArcDPS I'm going to refer to it and its creator - deltaconnected - in this thread.

I accept that players have different goals

and big succesful game like Guild Wars 2 should provide content and tools for different groups of players.

Therefore I agree that DPS meter has its uses and there are people who benefit from using it

and I am not going to advocate for 100% deletion of this tool.

Yet there is one thing I have issue with. I do not understand how is it possible that every player using this tool is 100% allowed to monitor my performance in game without my consent. I am not using this tool. So why is it possible for random people watch my DPS numbers?

I find this a big issue in terms of player privacy in game.

ArenaNet does not allow gear inspections or naming and shaming exactly because of respect for players' privacy. After changing forums engine they even deleted tools like "thumbs down" under our posts to not spread unnecessary negativity amongst the community.

This is why I don't understand why they allowed people to spy on other players' performance (numbers, dps, whatever you call it) without our consent.

If the tool has to exist in the game,

make it clear that it is by default only to monitor numbers of a player using it unless other players in group agree to share their numbers.

I think the DPS meters policy needs to be revied. This tool can cause unnecessary toxicity in groups, especially because me, as a player, have no power to control who's spying on me in game. I have no option to block other players watching me, I have no option to see who's using this tool and who isn't. And this is why I believe the only fair solution is to make deltaconnected change how ArcDPS works.

It should be limited to personal DPS only unless other players agree to share their numbers from the tool

.

Every party/squad leader has every right to require this tool in group content (since it's allowed) and every other player should be allowed to not agree to other players spying on their numbers.

I think this is very reasonable request that gives players back power over their accounts and their privacy that is currently violated by usage of ArcDPS.

---

EDIT: I am well aware I'm going to be accused of poor performance myself, taking revenge for being kicked etc. Well, that's not my story, sorry to disappoint. This tool is used outside of raids and even in raids, there is no requirement of doing top dps for anyone.

Every group has every right to request me to use the meter and share dps with them. But it should be my decision to join, not expect by default that every player in the game may or may not use this tool and judge me.

---

EDIT2: BGDM worked like this. People couldn't see your numbers unless you joined their server and share your numbers. It was okay then and this whole sub was fixated about this tool. Why is it bad now?

---

EDIT3: This repost has been made to respect forums rules.

Joining someone else’s group is you consenting to Combat Meters, Anet has stated this, they have also stated that Combat information is not private information, so no players privacy is infringed upon, and consent is given at time of joining someone else’s group, all things covered by Anets statements on Combat meters.

If you don’t like Combat Meters only start your own groups, and kick anyone that uses them for toxic reasons, pretty simple concept.

But if I create my own group I have no power to know who uses this tool. People can ignore my LFG, join MY group and kick me. My request is to avoid such situation, so I can actually do what you suggest - make my group and control the fact that others can't spy on me without my consent. Currently random person using this tool has an advantage over me using vanilla game client without hacks. This is ridiculous situation.

Again Post your group say no Combat Meters in the LFG and then when someone tries to be a toxic kitten using Combat Meter vote to kick them and report them, because I doubt there will be many people using Combat Meters to join your LFG post stating no Combat Meters, since those groups tend to attract others they wouldn’t want to group with, and they probably won’t just vote to kick you without raging in /p as the basis of your complaint stands upon so most times the 3 other people in your group will more than likely be of your mindset of no Combat Meters and won’t vote to kick you, since it takes 4 others to kick someone.

Also because there seems to be a lack of understanding here, Combat Data is in no way private or personal data/information especially in any group setting.

Maybe there should be a campaign to encourage pugs to advertise no meters, that would drive a nail into the isswue over time, think i will do this from now on.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:I want to stress out my issue with DPS meters. I am not in peace with the fact that after 4 years ArenaNet decide to walk away from their principles and allowed players to use this tool. I understand that it's easier to allow certain tool and cooperate with the dev to make it compliant to game rules instead of chasing players using it in the background.

However,

allowing this tool has come with certain oversight

that I hope ArenaNet is going to consider and fix soon.

Since the only allowed DPS meter at this point is ArcDPS I'm going to refer to it and its creator - deltaconnected - in this thread.

I accept that players have different goals

and big succesful game like Guild Wars 2 should provide content and tools for different groups of players.

Therefore I agree that DPS meter has its uses and there are people who benefit from using it

and I am not going to advocate for 100% deletion of this tool.

Yet there is one thing I have issue with. I do not understand how is it possible that every player using this tool is 100% allowed to monitor my performance in game without my consent. I am not using this tool. So why is it possible for random people watch my DPS numbers?

I find this a big issue in terms of player privacy in game.

ArenaNet does not allow gear inspections or naming and shaming exactly because of respect for players' privacy. After changing forums engine they even deleted tools like "thumbs down" under our posts to not spread unnecessary negativity amongst the community.

This is why I don't understand why they allowed people to spy on other players' performance (numbers, dps, whatever you call it) without our consent.

If the tool has to exist in the game,

make it clear that it is by default only to monitor numbers of a player using it unless other players in group agree to share their numbers.

I think the DPS meters policy needs to be revied. This tool can cause unnecessary toxicity in groups, especially because me, as a player, have no power to control who's spying on me in game. I have no option to block other players watching me, I have no option to see who's using this tool and who isn't. And this is why I believe the only fair solution is to make deltaconnected change how ArcDPS works.

It should be limited to personal DPS only unless other players agree to share their numbers from the tool

.

Every party/squad leader has every right to require this tool in group content (since it's allowed) and every other player should be allowed to not agree to other players spying on their numbers.

I think this is very reasonable request that gives players back power over their accounts and their privacy that is currently violated by usage of ArcDPS.

---

EDIT: I am well aware I'm going to be accused of poor performance myself, taking revenge for being kicked etc. Well, that's not my story, sorry to disappoint. This tool is used outside of raids and even in raids, there is no requirement of doing top dps for anyone.

Every group has every right to request me to use the meter and share dps with them. But it should be my decision to join, not expect by default that every player in the game may or may not use this tool and judge me.

---

EDIT2: BGDM worked like this. People couldn't see your numbers unless you joined their server and share your numbers. It was okay then and this whole sub was fixated about this tool. Why is it bad now?

---

EDIT3: This repost has been made to respect forums rules.

Making people only able to see their own numbers makes the DPS meter obsolete, as a measure of performance is only useful as a relative measure to others in the group.

The whole point of a DPS meter is to be able to say with absolute certainty who's the weak link in DPS performance in a group.

Are there special considerations? Sure, the engineer could have spent some time rezzing or breaking a CC bar and have lower DPS, but such tasks are obvious to a competent group.

What's not acceptable is that one mainhand axe power necromancer or staff weaver doing diddly squat for DPS, holding the group back.

I'm not denying anyone their right to use dps meters or request me to use one. But it should be MY decision that you can watch my performance. If I don't agree - kick me, that's your right. But give me back my power to decide about my account.

Combat information is not private or personal information it is the groups data, especially in group content, and you are not entitled to other people’s time and effort if you join their group and are underperforming to that groups needs, again this is easily rectified with an LFG created by you stating no Combat Meters, since LFG descriptions help filter out who joins your party since most times they look for groups that description fit their needs/wants.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:I want to stress out my issue with DPS meters. I am not in peace with the fact that after 4 years ArenaNet decide to walk away from their principles and allowed players to use this tool. I understand that it's easier to allow certain tool and cooperate with the dev to make it compliant to game rules instead of chasing players using it in the background.

However,

allowing this tool has come with certain oversight

that I hope ArenaNet is going to consider and fix soon.

Since the only allowed DPS meter at this point is ArcDPS I'm going to refer to it and its creator - deltaconnected - in this thread.

I accept that players have different goals

and big succesful game like Guild Wars 2 should provide content and tools for different groups of players.

Therefore I agree that DPS meter has its uses and there are people who benefit from using it

and I am not going to advocate for 100% deletion of this tool.

Yet there is one thing I have issue with. I do not understand how is it possible that every player using this tool is 100% allowed to monitor my performance in game without my consent. I am not using this tool. So why is it possible for random people watch my DPS numbers?

I find this a big issue in terms of player privacy in game.

ArenaNet does not allow gear inspections or naming and shaming exactly because of respect for players' privacy. After changing forums engine they even deleted tools like "thumbs down" under our posts to not spread unnecessary negativity amongst the community.

This is why I don't understand why they allowed people to spy on other players' performance (numbers, dps, whatever you call it) without our consent.

If the tool has to exist in the game,

make it clear that it is by default only to monitor numbers of a player using it unless other players in group agree to share their numbers.

I think the DPS meters policy needs to be revied. This tool can cause unnecessary toxicity in groups, especially because me, as a player, have no power to control who's spying on me in game. I have no option to block other players watching me, I have no option to see who's using this tool and who isn't. And this is why I believe the only fair solution is to make deltaconnected change how ArcDPS works.

It should be limited to personal DPS only unless other players agree to share their numbers from the tool

.

Every party/squad leader has every right to require this tool in group content (since it's allowed) and every other player should be allowed to not agree to other players spying on their numbers.

I think this is very reasonable request that gives players back power over their accounts and their privacy that is currently violated by usage of ArcDPS.

---

EDIT: I am well aware I'm going to be accused of poor performance myself, taking revenge for being kicked etc. Well, that's not my story, sorry to disappoint. This tool is used outside of raids and even in raids, there is no requirement of doing top dps for anyone.

Every group has every right to request me to use the meter and share dps with them. But it should be my decision to join, not expect by default that every player in the game may or may not use this tool and judge me.

---

EDIT2: BGDM worked like this. People couldn't see your numbers unless you joined their server and share your numbers. It was okay then and this whole sub was fixated about this tool. Why is it bad now?

---

EDIT3: This repost has been made to respect forums rules.

Joining someone else’s group is you consenting to Combat Meters, Anet has stated this, they have also stated that Combat information is not private information, so no players privacy is infringed upon, and consent is given at time of joining someone else’s group, all things covered by Anets statements on Combat meters.

If you don’t like Combat Meters only start your own groups, and kick anyone that uses them for toxic reasons, pretty simple concept.

But if I create my own group I have no power to know who uses this tool. People can ignore my LFG, join MY group and kick me. My request is to avoid such situation, so I can actually do what you suggest - make my group and control the fact that others can't spy on me without my consent. Currently random person using this tool has an advantage over me using vanilla game client without hacks. This is ridiculous situation.

Again Post your group say no Combat Meters in the LFG and then when someone tries to be a toxic kitten using Combat Meter vote to kick them and report them, because I doubt there will be many people using Combat Meters to join your LFG post stating no Combat Meters, since those groups tend to attract others they wouldn’t want to group with, and they probably won’t just vote to kick you without raging in /p as the basis of your complaint stands upon so most times the 3 other people in your group will more than likely be of your mindset of no Combat Meters and won’t vote to kick you, since it takes 4 others to kick someone.

But this is only working after "damage" is done (pun intended), it's not preventing such situations. Meanwhile, if my request is to be applied it works for both sides. You can request to play with dps meter and share with everyone beforehand so if anyone joins and refuses to share you can kick him before the fight saving your time watching their poor dps.

Also because there seems to be a lack of understanding here, Combat Data is in no way private or personal data/information especially in any group setting.

And this is what I'm asking for to be changed in the policy.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Rauderi.8706 said:Honest question, because I think I missed a step in the evolution of this meters thing.Is memory reading now allowed? I was under the impression that was part of the list of bannable offenses.

They allowed it exactly because of dps meters, which includes not only dps but also boon and condi uptime.

[Halandir.3609]

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:also I would love to see your metrics/proof that shows Harassment increased.

Sure you would, but serious who cares? Anet sold out to a certain niche - Some of us left as a result! I still have some fond& fuzzy feelings towards this games roots, but I don't give 2 shits about the current incarnation: My money is better spent elsewhere in a more accommodating community.But hey: Your niche get a stroke and I have fun somewhere else: Everybody wins :+1: (Well Anet miss a few $ but newcomers probably outweigh that 100:1)

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:I want to stress out my issue with DPS meters. I am not in peace with the fact that after 4 years ArenaNet decide to walk away from their principles and allowed players to use this tool. I understand that it's easier to allow certain tool and cooperate with the dev to make it compliant to game rules instead of chasing players using it in the background.

However,

allowing this tool has come with certain oversight

that I hope ArenaNet is going to consider and fix soon.

Since the only allowed DPS meter at this point is ArcDPS I'm going to refer to it and its creator - deltaconnected - in this thread.

I accept that players have different goals

and big succesful game like Guild Wars 2 should provide content and tools for different groups of players.

Therefore I agree that DPS meter has its uses and there are people who benefit from using it

and I am not going to advocate for 100% deletion of this tool.

Yet there is one thing I have issue with. I do not understand how is it possible that every player using this tool is 100% allowed to monitor my performance in game without my consent. I am not using this tool. So why is it possible for random people watch my DPS numbers?

I find this a big issue in terms of player privacy in game.

ArenaNet does not allow gear inspections or naming and shaming exactly because of respect for players' privacy. After changing forums engine they even deleted tools like "thumbs down" under our posts to not spread unnecessary negativity amongst the community.

This is why I don't understand why they allowed people to spy on other players' performance (numbers, dps, whatever you call it) without our consent.

If the tool has to exist in the game,

make it clear that it is by default only to monitor numbers of a player using it unless other players in group agree to share their numbers.

I think the DPS meters policy needs to be revied. This tool can cause unnecessary toxicity in groups, especially because me, as a player, have no power to control who's spying on me in game. I have no option to block other players watching me, I have no option to see who's using this tool and who isn't. And this is why I believe the only fair solution is to make deltaconnected change how ArcDPS works.

It should be limited to personal DPS only unless other players agree to share their numbers from the tool

.

Every party/squad leader has every right to require this tool in group content (since it's allowed) and every other player should be allowed to not agree to other players spying on their numbers.

I think this is very reasonable request that gives players back power over their accounts and their privacy that is currently violated by usage of ArcDPS.

---

EDIT: I am well aware I'm going to be accused of poor performance myself, taking revenge for being kicked etc. Well, that's not my story, sorry to disappoint. This tool is used outside of raids and even in raids, there is no requirement of doing top dps for anyone.

Every group has every right to request me to use the meter and share dps with them. But it should be my decision to join, not expect by default that every player in the game may or may not use this tool and judge me.

---

EDIT2: BGDM worked like this. People couldn't see your numbers unless you joined their server and share your numbers. It was okay then and this whole sub was fixated about this tool. Why is it bad now?

---

EDIT3: This repost has been made to respect forums rules.

Joining someone else’s group is you consenting to Combat Meters, Anet has stated this, they have also stated that Combat information is not private information, so no players privacy is infringed upon, and consent is given at time of joining someone else’s group, all things covered by Anets statements on Combat meters.

If you don’t like Combat Meters only start your own groups, and kick anyone that uses them for toxic reasons, pretty simple concept.

But if I create my own group I have no power to know who uses this tool. People can ignore my LFG, join MY group and kick me. My request is to avoid such situation, so I can actually do what you suggest - make my group and control the fact that others can't spy on me without my consent. Currently random person using this tool has an advantage over me using vanilla game client without hacks. This is ridiculous situation.

Again Post your group say no Combat Meters in the LFG and then when someone tries to be a toxic kitten using Combat Meter vote to kick them and report them, because I doubt there will be many people using Combat Meters to join your LFG post stating no Combat Meters, since those groups tend to attract others they wouldn’t want to group with, and they probably won’t just vote to kick you without raging in /p as the basis of your complaint stands upon so most times the 3 other people in your group will more than likely be of your mindset of no Combat Meters and won’t vote to kick you, since it takes 4 others to kick someone.

But this is only working after "damage" is done (pun intended), it's not preventing such situations. Meanwhile, if my request is to be applied it works for both sides. You can request to play with dps meter and share with everyone beforehand so if anyone joins and refuses to share you can kick him before the fight saving your time watching their poor dps.

Also because there seems to be a lack of understanding here, Combat Data is in no way private or personal data/information especially in any group setting.

And this is what I'm asking for to be changed in the policy.

I gave you the perfect answer to handle the situation if it would ever arise, legitimately no damage would be done or very little Anet provided you every tool to combat those toxic players from LFG descriptions to Block/report /kick from Party.

Again in Group settings that Combat data is already not Private or personal since it is a combination of the group as a whole, you have no ownership of it and by aren’t spyin in you, again you are in no way entitled to other players time if you join their group and are underperforming, and if you start your own group with a clear cut LFG description and someone tries to be a toxic kitten then kick block and report them, and remember you can’t be kicked from group without majority of players voting to kick you, so if your LFG post for your group was clear enough you will mostly be grouped with like minded people to you.

One last time since it seems to have to be repeated multiple times, consent is given upon Group join, all combat data is not owned or private in any group setting since it is gatherers from every player in group through buffs/debuffs and everything in between.No policy needs to be changed since every tool you require to correct the situation is available already.

[Carnius Magius.8091]

My gripe is I can survive a hoard of veterans in the PVE world, but in WvW I get downed in one single hit before I can do 1 dps.

[SkyShroud.2865]

DPS meter is just a tool, itself has no wrong. It all depends on how the users themselves use the tools.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:I want to stress out my issue with DPS meters. I am not in peace with the fact that after 4 years ArenaNet decide to walk away from their principles and allowed players to use this tool. I understand that it's easier to allow certain tool and cooperate with the dev to make it compliant to game rules instead of chasing players using it in the background.

However,

allowing this tool has come with certain oversight

that I hope ArenaNet is going to consider and fix soon.

Since the only allowed DPS meter at this point is ArcDPS I'm going to refer to it and its creator - deltaconnected - in this thread.

I accept that players have different goals

and big succesful game like Guild Wars 2 should provide content and tools for different groups of players.

Therefore I agree that DPS meter has its uses and there are people who benefit from using it

and I am not going to advocate for 100% deletion of this tool.

Yet there is one thing I have issue with. I do not understand how is it possible that every player using this tool is 100% allowed to monitor my performance in game without my consent. I am not using this tool. So why is it possible for random people watch my DPS numbers?

I find this a big issue in terms of player privacy in game.

ArenaNet does not allow gear inspections or naming and shaming exactly because of respect for players' privacy. After changing forums engine they even deleted tools like "thumbs down" under our posts to not spread unnecessary negativity amongst the community.

This is why I don't understand why they allowed people to spy on other players' performance (numbers, dps, whatever you call it) without our consent.

If the tool has to exist in the game,

make it clear that it is by default only to monitor numbers of a player using it unless other players in group agree to share their numbers.

I think the DPS meters policy needs to be revied. This tool can cause unnecessary toxicity in groups, especially because me, as a player, have no power to control who's spying on me in game. I have no option to block other players watching me, I have no option to see who's using this tool and who isn't. And this is why I believe the only fair solution is to make deltaconnected change how ArcDPS works.

It should be limited to personal DPS only unless other players agree to share their numbers from the tool

.

Every party/squad leader has every right to require this tool in group content (since it's allowed) and every other player should be allowed to not agree to other players spying on their numbers.

I think this is very reasonable request that gives players back power over their accounts and their privacy that is currently violated by usage of ArcDPS.

---

EDIT: I am well aware I'm going to be accused of poor performance myself, taking revenge for being kicked etc. Well, that's not my story, sorry to disappoint. This tool is used outside of raids and even in raids, there is no requirement of doing top dps for anyone.

Every group has every right to request me to use the meter and share dps with them. But it should be my decision to join, not expect by default that every player in the game may or may not use this tool and judge me.

---

EDIT2: BGDM worked like this. People couldn't see your numbers unless you joined their server and share your numbers. It was okay then and this whole sub was fixated about this tool. Why is it bad now?

---

EDIT3: This repost has been made to respect forums rules.

Joining someone else’s group is you consenting to Combat Meters, Anet has stated this, they have also stated that Combat information is not private information, so no players privacy is infringed upon, and consent is given at time of joining someone else’s group, all things covered by Anets statements on Combat meters.

If you don’t like Combat Meters only start your own groups, and kick anyone that uses them for toxic reasons, pretty simple concept.

But if I create my own group I have no power to know who uses this tool. People can ignore my LFG, join MY group and kick me. My request is to avoid such situation, so I can actually do what you suggest - make my group and control the fact that others can't spy on me without my consent. Currently random person using this tool has an advantage over me using vanilla game client without hacks. This is ridiculous situation.

Again Post your group say no Combat Meters in the LFG and then when someone tries to be a toxic kitten using Combat Meter vote to kick them and report them, because I doubt there will be many people using Combat Meters to join your LFG post stating no Combat Meters, since those groups tend to attract others they wouldn’t want to group with, and they probably won’t just vote to kick you without raging in /p as the basis of your complaint stands upon so most times the 3 other people in your group will more than likely be of your mindset of no Combat Meters and won’t vote to kick you, since it takes 4 others to kick someone.

But this is only working after "damage" is done (pun intended), it's not preventing such situations. Meanwhile, if my request is to be applied it works for both sides. You can request to play with dps meter and share with everyone beforehand so if anyone joins and refuses to share you can kick him before the fight saving your time watching their poor dps.

Also because there seems to be a lack of understanding here, Combat Data is in no way private or personal data/information especially in any group setting.

And this is what I'm asking for to be changed in the policy.

I gave you the perfect answer to handle the situation if it would ever arise, legitimately no damage would be done or very little Anet provided you every tool to combat those toxic players from LFG descriptions to Block/report /kick from Party.

Again in Group settings that Combat data is already not Private or personal since it is a combination of the group as a whole, you have no ownership of it and by aren’t spyin in you, again you are in no way entitled to other players time if you join their group and are underperforming, and if you start your own group with a clear cut LFG description and someone tries to be a toxic kitten then kick block and report them.

One last time since it seems to have to be repeated multiple times, consent is given upon Group join, all combat data is not owned or private in any group setting since it is gatherers from every player in group through buffs/debuffs and everything in between.No policy needs to be changed since every tool you require to correct the situation is available already.

And again, I disagree. You can ignore my LFG and join me even if your dps meter is not welcome in my party. I have no power to control my group meanwhile you have all the power over me. What's even better, I can be kicked from my own group (not squad) if you join me first or with 2 more guys like you and kick me ignoring my LFG. Yes, I can report you. But the damage is done. I lost my group, lost my progress (if we made any) and have to start over. I am against giving you all the power and removing this power from me.

All players in the game are equal. You can ask me to share my dps numbers if I join you and if I don't agree - kick me. Current system gives you this advantage. But when you join me I can't protect myself from you watching me. We don't have to play together, but we should have equal power in game to decide about our party. People using arcDPS are above people playing without this tool. This is not okay because it's 3rd party hack which I have no desire to use. And this breaks the very rule of 3rd party apps written by ArenaNet - you have advantage over me, you can control my account (and me as a player) without my consent.

[Trayvon.7362]

It's an invasion of privacy to have others see your DPS? Sounds like you want to hide your poor performance and/or be carried.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Suinz.5968 said:It's an invasion of privacy to have others see your DPS? Sounds like you want to hide your poor performance and/or be carried.

No. You can ask me to share my dps in YOUR group. But I should have the power to decide. If I disagree - kick me. I never expect anyone to carry me.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:I want to stress out my issue with DPS meters. I am not in peace with the fact that after 4 years ArenaNet decide to walk away from their principles and allowed players to use this tool. I understand that it's easier to allow certain tool and cooperate with the dev to make it compliant to game rules instead of chasing players using it in the background.

However,

allowing this tool has come with certain oversight

that I hope ArenaNet is going to consider and fix soon.

Since the only allowed DPS meter at this point is ArcDPS I'm going to refer to it and its creator - deltaconnected - in this thread.

I accept that players have different goals

and big succesful game like Guild Wars 2 should provide content and tools for different groups of players.

Therefore I agree that DPS meter has its uses and there are people who benefit from using it

and I am not going to advocate for 100% deletion of this tool.

Yet there is one thing I have issue with. I do not understand how is it possible that every player using this tool is 100% allowed to monitor my performance in game without my consent. I am not using this tool. So why is it possible for random people watch my DPS numbers?

I find this a big issue in terms of player privacy in game.

ArenaNet does not allow gear inspections or naming and shaming exactly because of respect for players' privacy. After changing forums engine they even deleted tools like "thumbs down" under our posts to not spread unnecessary negativity amongst the community.

This is why I don't understand why they allowed people to spy on other players' performance (numbers, dps, whatever you call it) without our consent.

If the tool has to exist in the game,

make it clear that it is by default only to monitor numbers of a player using it unless other players in group agree to share their numbers.

I think the DPS meters policy needs to be revied. This tool can cause unnecessary toxicity in groups, especially because me, as a player, have no power to control who's spying on me in game. I have no option to block other players watching me, I have no option to see who's using this tool and who isn't. And this is why I believe the only fair solution is to make deltaconnected change how ArcDPS works.

It should be limited to personal DPS only unless other players agree to share their numbers from the tool

.

Every party/squad leader has every right to require this tool in group content (since it's allowed) and every other player should be allowed to not agree to other players spying on their numbers.

I think this is very reasonable request that gives players back power over their accounts and their privacy that is currently violated by usage of ArcDPS.

---

EDIT: I am well aware I'm going to be accused of poor performance myself, taking revenge for being kicked etc. Well, that's not my story, sorry to disappoint. This tool is used outside of raids and even in raids, there is no requirement of doing top dps for anyone.

Every group has every right to request me to use the meter and share dps with them. But it should be my decision to join, not expect by default that every player in the game may or may not use this tool and judge me.

---

EDIT2: BGDM worked like this. People couldn't see your numbers unless you joined their server and share your numbers. It was okay then and this whole sub was fixated about this tool. Why is it bad now?

---

EDIT3: This repost has been made to respect forums rules.

Joining someone else’s group is you consenting to Combat Meters, Anet has stated this, they have also stated that Combat information is not private information, so no players privacy is infringed upon, and consent is given at time of joining someone else’s group, all things covered by Anets statements on Combat meters.

If you don’t like Combat Meters only start your own groups, and kick anyone that uses them for toxic reasons, pretty simple concept.

But if I create my own group I have no power to know who uses this tool. People can ignore my LFG, join MY group and kick me. My request is to avoid such situation, so I can actually do what you suggest - make my group and control the fact that others can't spy on me without my consent. Currently random person using this tool has an advantage over me using vanilla game client without hacks. This is ridiculous situation.

Again Post your group say no Combat Meters in the LFG and then when someone tries to be a toxic kitten using Combat Meter vote to kick them and report them, because I doubt there will be many people using Combat Meters to join your LFG post stating no Combat Meters, since those groups tend to attract others they wouldn’t want to group with, and they probably won’t just vote to kick you without raging in /p as the basis of your complaint stands upon so most times the 3 other people in your group will more than likely be of your mindset of no Combat Meters and won’t vote to kick you, since it takes 4 others to kick someone.

But this is only working after "damage" is done (pun intended), it's not preventing such situations. Meanwhile, if my request is to be applied it works for both sides. You can request to play with dps meter and share with everyone beforehand so if anyone joins and refuses to share you can kick him before the fight saving your time watching their poor dps.

Also because there seems to be a lack of understanding here, Combat Data is in no way private or personal data/information especially in any group setting.

And this is what I'm asking for to be changed in the policy.

I gave you the perfect answer to handle the situation if it would ever arise, legitimately no damage would be done or very little Anet provided you every tool to combat those toxic players from LFG descriptions to Block/report /kick from Party.

Again in Group settings that Combat data is already not Private or personal since it is a combination of the group as a whole, you have no ownership of it and by aren’t spyin in you, again you are in no way entitled to other players time if you join their group and are underperforming, and if you start your own group with a clear cut LFG description and someone tries to be a toxic kitten then kick block and report them.

One last time since it seems to have to be repeated multiple times, consent is given upon Group join, all combat data is not owned or private in any group setting since it is gatherers from every player in group through buffs/debuffs and everything in between.No policy needs to be changed since every tool you require to correct the situation is available already.

And again, I disagree. You can ignore my LFG and join me even if your dps meter is not welcome in my party. I have no power to control my group meanwhile you have all the power over me. What's even better, I can be kicked from my own group (not squad) if you join me first or with 2 more guys like you and kick me ignoring my LFG. Yes, I can report you. But the damage is done. I lost my group, lost my progress (if we made any) and have to start over. I am against giving you all the power and removing this power from me.

All players in the game are equal. You can ask me to share my dps numbers if I join you and if I don't agree - kick me. Current system gives you this advantage. But when you join me I can't protect myself from you watching me. We don't have to play together, but we should have equal power in game to decide about our party. People using arcDPS are above people playing without this tool. This is not okay because it's 3rd party hack which I have no desire to use. And this breaks the very rule of 3rd party apps written by ArenaNet - you have advantage over me, you can control my account (and me as a player) without my consent.

One it doesn’t give more power over another player or over another players account. Two you are making excuses for not posting your own LFG again players look for LFG posts based on their needs/wants so you will most likely turn away the toxic elitists using Combat Meters since your post will tell them your playstyle doesn’t match theirs.and Three Nope, Combat Meters don’t break Anet Policy since Anet Devs have stated on Official AMAs their stance and Policy on Combat Meters which supersedes their copy pasted third party policy which even states their policy can change at any given time as stated in the TOS.

And if you join group content you give consent as stated by Anet.

Any other misinformation for me to correct?

[Parlance.9584]

Like plenty of people have said before, the only reason you'd have a problem with people looking at your DPS is because you're not good and you want to hide your bad performance.Being able to see everyone's DPS in a raid or a T4 lets me know that I am not playing with good players and that I should just leave the group instead of wasting time wondering why we keep wiping.