[Doc] Mesmer changes suggestions for CmC

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

hi around 2 weeks ago we had a meeting with cmc and all class coaches from pvp discord (in case you are not part of the discord and want to join, then use this link: https://discord.gg/PMn4RkK) to talk about overall balance (bunker wars etc.) and each class. since the meeting was very long it wasnt the time to go into big details for each single class. the conclusion for me and my bad spoken english was, that we do a document for cmc to read, including the most important balance suggestions for mesmer.

since also the document shouldnt be insanely long (maybe max 1-2 wordpad document sides) i think we should focus on giving alternatives to previous changes that destroyed mechanics from mesmer elites. there will be another time for another document we then can talk about if mesmer needs buffs or nerfs (like dmg increases or dmg nerfs, longer/shorter cds etc). so first it should be mostly about what can we do to give mirage the one dodge back and what could be changed on mirage instead to make that not op. same for chrono. the deletion of ip and distortion killed at least shatterbased playstyles. atm it is not used in any form in competitive gamemodes even. what could be changed instead for chrono when giving ip and f4 back, to make chrono not op? or if you think these changes were justified, what would you give to the elites to make them playable on a competitive lvl again?

i dont want the document only be about what i think and try to get other suggestion from other players to then make an overview document for cmc out of it.

so what i want you to do is:pls give me your ideas and suggestion. we then can discuss a bit in this thread to find the suggestions we finally want to have in the first document. i tried to search forum the last weeks and found a lot of stuff you guys wrote already in older mesmer and pvp subforum threads, but it was too much to structure/ handle it. also often you guys had big controversial about stuff. so i gave up on getting all suggestions from you by my own research. thats why i open this thread now. pls lets try to avoid a big beef in this thread. stay constructive.

so pls write your suggestions down, if needed explain where you are coming from with your suggestions (why you want to change... into ...) again in this thread (or copy paste it from your older posts, that would be fine too but pls dont only link your old comment!), so i have everything in one place and dont miss anything. try to focus on the points i mentioned above and avoid big buff and nerf controversials, only focus on giving alternatives to the changes that are currently running against mechanics in the elite traitlines. i will add my suggestions a bit later. i sadly do not have that much time, so it might need a bit. i also try to moderate this thread in case it is getting too emotional or out of hand in any way.

greetings jazz o/

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

just to give you a start point:cmc couldnt say a lot about chrono (changes were done by someone else, but he will look into it) but he clearly said, that they found that mirage cloak dodge is an unhealthy mechanic, too forgiving (what was kind of funny considering how forgiving other classes are to play in their defensive mechanics compared to a squishy mesmer). sure, the 2 abilities to cast while dodging or to dodge while being stunned combined in one dodge is by itself broken, or at least pretty strong. they did "hardhandle it" with deleting one dodge, i guess duo to missing ideas how to deal with it otherwise and prob due to some problems to get mechanical pvp changes done which are mostly in hand of the pve skill team.

i asked if it is possible to delete the ability to dodge while being stunned and didnt get a clear answer, but it sounded more like it might not be possible. the dodge is either instant and has no animation and for that the mirage can cast while using the dodge and can dodge while being stunned (same way you can use every instant skill during stun and during using other skills) or they turn it into a normal dodge and mirage cant do any of it anymore. with other words changing mc itself (the mechanic, the abilities mc brings by itself) seems not possible.

so all we can do is to put the strong mechanic of mc into a mechanical concept that balance out the strong abilities. anet did it with deleting one dodge what is a bad solution bc it destroys the mirage mechanic and even dumbs it down. i think the old 2 dodge power mirage proved already, that a mirage spec can be balanced and high skill need even with mc used. the correct ambush design seems to be key by giving the need to mirage to dodge offensive to have enough impact and that way create a hard decision making and higher cost in that decision making about when and for what to use the dodges.but more of that from me later.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

For mirage all it was needed was just to nerf chaos vortex if they didn't want to mess with the mechanic itself lmao. People were complaining because chaos vortex was an instacancer spammable skill with invuln integrated and also usable while stunned; it was indeed OP. Nerf that, IDK how, and mirage is good, it's not like power surge has ever given any similar problems.

Now, about core

• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phantasmal_Warlock is one of the worst skills I've ever seen. No damage, no utility, no condi, slow as fuck to become a clone, easy to get out of range, it also has 18s coodown. What's even the point of this thing? On that one I'd actually love to hear some reasoning from a dev, because I honestly don't know what's the purpose of this thing.
• Rework chaos aura. Right now it's just a tooltip to pinpoint the real mesmer when there's too much visual spam around. You can safely ignore it -whereas I would NEVER attack a player with stun aura on-. Maybe switch confusion for 2s blindness\1s slow and swiftness for aegis, idk. What would even be the point of that swiftness eludes me really.
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Empowered_Illusions and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Blades shouldn't be both minor, as they compete against each other. Same goes for https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chaotic_Dampening and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chaotic_Transference, which people would probably love to use together. Chaotic transference could probably become grandmaster and replace chaotic interruption, nobody would miss it anyway.
• Speaking of which, the aforementioned bountiful blades is probably the only weapon trait that doesn't reduce cooldowns. GS in general became an even worse weapon than it was before, and it was meme tier already; the loss of cripple (so no more interaction with https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sigil_ofOpportunity(PvP)), increased cooldowns and the enormous nerf to the damage on gs4 (despite being one of the most telegraphed skills in the game, and literally the only option on GS other than oneshotting from stealth, which devs allegedly hated and consequently removed everything except oneshot from stealth) is quite obnoxious. GS4 in particular went from 2 gs hits to 1 (1k less damage and 3 less vuln stacks), the malus on berserker jumped from the previous 25% to the current 33%, no cd reduction, 5% less damage because no cripple+sigil (and the loss of cripple in my toolset was, personally, felt quite heavily), and that on top on the damage nerf every class has suffered from the patch. If only https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phantasmal_Haste worked with the phantasmal berserker the skill could be a little bit better... but surprise surprise, it doesn't! The berserker keeps on being slow even with quickness applied! Why's that? IDK.
• There's more to that big meme that is gs. It was supposed to be a ranged weapon in the dev's mind, but your bread and butter is https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirror_Blade + https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mind_Wrack and it must be used from up close, or it won't deal damage -either because it bounces around too much, or not at all when nothing to bounce on is found, and the projectile is as slow as a walking man anyway. Problem from using it up close is, however, that the enemy can cancel it by walking through you while you cast it. Really, try it: you can down a power mesmer by jumping back and forth while auto attacking, and the poor dude won't be able to do a thing to stop you. GS2 is a melee skill that can be cancelled by the opponent as if it was a ranged skill. This happens on https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rapid_Fire too, but good luck trying to do that with a ranger-. Side note, auto attack has such a low damage too, it's insane
• For some reason, if a ranger manages to hit you with either https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Entangle or https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jacaranda%27s_Embrace you can't hit the roots with GS. Why's that? That's a mistery we are never going to solve.
• Torch 5 and sword 5 are a joke within a joke. You can basically walk past right them and they won't hit you. And even if sword 5 hits -you're probably downed and it's being used as a cleave-, it deals such a low damage it's not a real problem anyway. With full zerk equip it hits for 4-5k, just give me directly a clone, at least I can shatter.
• Can https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Illusionary_Leap even hit? I don't think it can tbh. Also, I'd like to compare it to https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infiltrator%27s_Strike. The latter is sword 2 from thieves; it just does the same thing, but it hits faster, has greater range, deals damage, is more reliable, it can port you back and on top of that it gives swiftness because why shouldn't we give some more swiftness to a thief, they have so little of that
• Pathfinding for phantasms is just so bad. Just spawn them on enemy location if you can't make them act smart, like guardian's spirit weapon, because having my berserker run behind a teleporting thief for half an hour and turning into a clone once it gave up is just depressing. I shattered a clone half an hour ago and I can't stealth because it's still just running around and it will sooner or later reveal me.
• You don't get to use your class mechanic on WvW, nor in heavy zerks in pvp as both clones and phantasms die immediately. We had glamours, back then, which could be used against zerks, but it was removed because of course mesmers in WvW are a big no-no
• Talking about phantasms, this pisses me off 'cause you have DOUBLE THE TIME to react and DOUBLE TO OPTIONS TO INTERRUPT THEM compared to any other skill. Sure, you can interrupt\blind the mesmer while the phantasm is being casted, but you can also interrupt\blind the phantasm if you fucked up and the phantasm is up. Sure, you can LOS the mesmer, but you can also LOS the phantasm. This on top of phantasms skills being generally heavy telegraphed.
• Mantras being limited by LOS is only fair. Mantras being limited to facing the enemy, however, is not. And about mantras, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mantra_of_Concentration with 60s recharge time.I repeat: A stunbreak with 60s recharge time.Why should I take this thing over literally anything else?
• A lot of traits are just wasted space. An (albeit incomplete) would surely include https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Escape_Artist, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chaotic_Interruption, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Protected_Phantasms, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mental_Defense. These are not just "traits that should be used in only one game mode"; these are traits that have no reason to exist at all. The entire chrono traitline is the most perfect example of this.
• Speaking of which, is https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phantasmal_Defender ever going to be a skill or the plan is to keep it as a placeholder? Is it just fate for https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phantasmal_Disenchanter to have such an INSANELY LONG cast time?
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phantasmal_Rogue doesn't hit. Sometimes it just gives the evil eye to the enemy, hoping to scare the guy away. When it isn't randomly killed, that is. Why doesn't this phantasm start attacking immediately? This mistery is here to stay
• Find one thief and you're dead. It's not a matter of skill, it's not a matter of timing, it's not a matter of players, thieves just win. Hands down, without even trying. A thief sneezes on one side of the map, from the other side of the map you just start crying. There's no way to pressure a thief as a mesmer. That on top of https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Consume_Plasma being basically god mode every 20 seconds (twice, with https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Improvisation).

As for chrono just delete it, the joke has gone on long enough. And fire the guy who tought it was a good idea to make an entire espec -that people actually paid for- rely on a 105s cd that can be cancelled by autoattacking a stationary object with 4k hp.

[Dadnir.5038]

Granted that they are "working on the next patch already" and that it should be out "soon", it might be a bit to soon to collect data/idea/feedback. Every patch shake things even dead professions and todays priorities might not be tomorow's. That said, if you can bring feedback on their laps:

General:

• Hard CC: All in all, the game focus to much on long duration hard CC and even the counter play to hard CC focus on that aspect. Long duration Hard CC just aren't fun to play against. The game need less of them and more quick way to simply interrupt your foe as a reactive answer to a threat (not the wild guess that you often have due to long cast time on hard CCs). Introducing ways to reduce incoming hard CC effect/duration by %age (through traits, rune or even sigil) should be able to help to ease a bit the "unfun" part at least.
• Conditions: Be it in PvP or PvE it seem that the concept of slow ramping damage still have a hard time becoming a reality. Conditions are still to bursty.
• Barrier: Barrier being stackable is an issue. I know changing this mean a huge load of work to balance the different source of barrier but, it's needed, really!

WvW: It would be nice if an environmental effect in this gamemode could make overlapping AoE have diminishing return based on the number of AoE overlapped. this would reduce "bombing".

Mesmer:

• Core: Personally, I'd say that right now shatter's traits are to "restrictive", it make difficult to temper with shatters which are the primary mechanism of the mesmer. It also feel like that the e-specs "drawback" are forced onto these e-specs because tempering with shatter is difficult.
• Chrono: The spec need QoL, it's understandable to have removed illusory persona due to continuum split/shift being a shatter however it break the rythm of the spec. Would it be possible to bring continuum split/shift onto the elite skill slot instead and bring back the illusory persona QoL?
• Mirage: 2 issues here. It's clear that the ambush skills overpower the shatter mechanism (and in some way go against the condition's slow ramping philosophy), it might be wise to make a choice between ambushs and shatters instead of having them both at the same time. The second issue is the dodge, could you just get rid of the shards and bring back the full endurance bar?

If I were to give a solution for mirage, it would be to have the shatters replaced by ambushs, dissociating the ambushs from the dodge mechanism. Thus you would no longer destroy your clones with your F skills but command them to perform an attack/action.

[mortrialus.3062]

This thread is much ado about nothing and a complete waste of time.

It's actually kind of insulting to ask people to spend good time out of their finite lifespans to write something to someone they aren't going to even bother reading.

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

@mortrialus.3062 said:This thread is much ado about nothing and a complete waste of time.

It's actually kind of insulting to ask people to spend good time out of their finite lifespans to write something to someone they aren't going to even bother reading.

it is up to you to spend time or not. its a free choice. i will do the effort to create a document as we said that in the 3 hours meeting with cmc where we all ofc wasted our time too (in your opinion at least) then. and i just wanted to give other ppl the chance to participate so it will not include only my point of view. calling me insulting is actually insulting and destructive. feel free to not waste your time with doing that. thx!

[Taril.8619]

Simple, straight to the point suggestions eh?

Alright;

1. Change Phantasms into pure animations, not untargetable NPC's. This is all they functionally are, but the vestigial mechanic of them being NPC's makes them unreliable because of stupid AI, terrible pathing and janky hitboxes (Not to mention, as a primary source of Clones to fuel the class mechanics, their awkward mechanics can cause delays to Clone generation which is a complete FeelsBadMan)2. Change how Clones function. There's way too much counterplay to them, including boss AoE's in PvE. There shouldn't be such a huge difference between standard usage and shotgunning with them. Possible solution: Clones only exist when you Shatter, which causes the (Now untargetable/invulnerable) Clone(s) to appear a set distance from your target then run in (Shattering all at the same time) before you Shatter you only hold "Clone Pips". This would make them more consistent to utilize and play against (Also, small benefit of allowing you to be able to "Hold" your clones between target swaps) as they will be consistent to dodge at all ranges and will be guaranteed to land on targets (Especially if they functioned like pure animations too instead of NPC's so they cared less about terrain or being juked)

3. Re-adjust Condition DPS weapons to account for the loss of Clone uptime providing damaging Conditions.4. Mirage gets unique Shatters that produce Mirage Cloak instead of it coming from Dodging (Possibly having MC on Dodge being a GM trait to replace Infinite Horizon)5. Chrono's unique Shatters now also produce AoE Quickness/Alacrity/Stability (For F1/F2/F3 respectively) allowing them to provide this boon support without relying on their trashy Wells.6. Rework Staff. Either make it more consistent for support or conditions. Make Skill 3 not utter garbage. Make Chaos Aura (Thus the Chaos Armour skill) not trash (Heck, with a 30s CD, Chaos Aura should be provided to allies in an area around you too when using Chaos Armour).

That's about it for the major points of Mesmer's issues.

Things like trashy traits are a problem that many classes share... Also some of the above suggestions would require some trait tweaks anyway.

[Tayga.3192]

Hi Jazz, thanks for making this thread.

Core

Mantra of Recovery: More healthMantra of Pain: Change from damage to boonripMantra of Concentration: Lower cooldownTime Warp: Half cooldown half durationSignet of Humility: Half cooldown half durationMirror Images: 30 seconds cooldown

Restorative Illusions: Reduce base health, increase healing coefficientCritical Infusion: Increase vigor to 5sSharper Images: Slightly increase bleeding duration

Staff 3: Double the damage.Staff 4: Reduce cd to 25

Greatsword can't be fixed w/o reworks so idk

Sword 2: Increase damageSword 4: Increase damage

Pistol 4: Increase damage coefficientPistol 5: Reduce stun duration by 0.5 sec, reduce cd by 2-3 sec

Focus 4: Reduce CD

Chronomancer

nvm

Mirage

At least 75 endurance, but 100 is better.I haven't been playing much mirage so I'll leave this part to other people :)

[Moradorin.6217]

Im going to try and keep it short.

For Mirage:- Give back the other dodge OMG WTF! ;)-Mirage Cloak is fine its no better than dash on Daredevil. The issue was orignally the longer 1 sec evade frame combined with allot more vigor application + stronger ambush damage back before MANY nerfs. At present even with 2 dodges MC on its own seems 100% OK.-Damage differences between core and Mirage are all from Ambush damage. At present, clones die fast which is already a trade off for ambush damage since if you cannot maintain 3 clones with ambush the damage becomes crappynote: if you opt to shatter clones you dont get ambush damage which is a direct trade off between shatters and ambushremaining issue: keeping shatters impactful for core while also allowing ambushes to be impactful without giving BOTH equally to Mirage.Solutions: How about giving Mirage stronger clones (less easy to destroy) and remove clone damage from F1 and F2 to produce a drawback to shattering clones while making using Ambush more viable as a damage source (otherwise often times ambush is useless like a chrono with no clones)Also: Blance Mirage Ambush damage per weapon in such a way that core weapon damage can be returned to a reasonable baseline to the benefit of core, mirage and chrono alike without making Mirage OP.NOTE I DONT LIKE THIS IDEA MYSELF AND DONT WANA CHANGE SHATTERS, BUT IF WE HAD TO CHANGE THEM IM THROWING OUT HOW IT MIGHT BE WORKABLE.

I think that Mirage damage SHOULD be balanced by adjusting ambush damage and the way it scales per clone. I think if base ambush damage was stage 1 mirage damage 1 clone stage 2 (could add another condition or just a multiplier) My worry for this is that it doesnt offer a good reason to prefer core over mirage then other than if you want 3 core trait lines which people seem to wana call a lack of trade off. In which case then it seems logical to look at shatters vs ambushes sorta like how chrono has been setup, however, the shatter changes to chrono look bad currently so clearly either a rethink of the "Trade off" or more design work is needed.

For Chrono:- I think chrono may need a GM trait that gives an option to get cloneless shatters back at the cost of access to chronophantasma since for Chrono the big issue was often the way they produced tripple clones and phants w SoE + chronophant + CS. (note: I havnt played chrono much recently so I would welcome other better suggestions and Im not saying this is THE solution its just a thought I had and seemed like it may work)- Seems like chrono could use some other tweaks too maybe better access to slow or alter its traits so its no longer totally dependent upon slow to get its good damage.

For Core:

- I think Core needs boosts to make shatters and basic weapon damage better/impactful. Its pathetic right now really.- Core could use a revamp and restoration of dead traits to give it some options for glamor skills and in general needs better utilities or to have its current utilities or related traits enhanced. Lets face it many dead skills and traits sitting around that could use love.

If Mirage and Chrono had those changes made it seems like they might be more viable and easier to balance against core. If it was done well along with intelligent utility and trait changes with all 3 specs in mind all 3 could be compelling to play and be balanced between each and against other classes in general. It seems like it could clear up any actual balance issues.

I may add more later. I didnt wana spend allot of time cause Im not sure it will help or matter, but I wanted to add my 2cp.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

I had a thread with a bunch of suggestions from the mesmer community sometime ago, some things changed but some of them are still actual, could be a starting point to someone who gives a fuck.I can't be bothered anymore.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/70097/changes-to-improve-mesmer-buffs-nerfs-qol/p1

[MesmerizedNYC.2479]

Hey Jazz thanks for doing this. Some see this as a waste of time with the likes of anet these days but its worth getting well documented constructive and informative community feedback to anet. The real test of whether that company is really committed to building some semblance of balance will be what they do with the information that people who play their hearts and souls into this class say. And even some feedback from those that play against it.

I think Mesmer can be salvaged. The comments in this thread so far provide a framework. I want Mesmer to be salvaged. I want to play this class again knowing there's thought to its design, not just whackamole "hardhandling" cause they could not think of anything better. (amongst so many other fumbles)

The ball will be in anet's hands. I've stopped playing this game by and large since Feb. Mesmer was a unique class amongst fantasy MMO's. One more fumble and this player will stop even coming to the GW2 forums anymore to even see if Mesmer is going to be patched to playability.

[phokus.8934]

This has been done before and ultimately fails. Good luck I suppose.

[Curunen.8729]

Well done Jazz for trying to push something positive again.

Unfortunately I'm of the opinion of mortrialus, Lincolnbeard, Moradorin and phokus so far - having spent countless hours in the past writing so much on this forum, I'm less inclined to want to waste my time that currently is more fun to enjoy playing other games.

But I suppose I can meet it halfway and go for some overarching statements and themes that I can write in a short time, rather than focusing on the individual traits and skills.

Spec themes:I'm of the opinion that Core mesmer should retain the old school IP shatter playstyle - that is, maximum burst damage potential through F1/2, and effectively be the best option for burst power builds so far (until potentially the future elite spec). Regarding clone generation, there should be additional options to Deceptive Evasion in other traitlines for the sake of variety and experimentation - eg, spawn clone on interrupting an enemy (maybe in domination).

Chrono being more of a support spec should ideally have had PBAOE function skills to provide eg area buff/debuffs that get fuelled by clones. It would lose the damage nuking burst potential Core mesmer has in favour of better support and control/denial options. I actually think it is interesting for Chrono to have lost IP, but there was no compensation - if this remains the case then certainly Chrono clones should have PvE damage reduction for being untargeted - so they cannot be easily cleaved/aoed, but ideall Chrono would sacrifice immediate and burst function skill usage for this.

Mirage should play more of a sustained damage in comparison to the burst of Core - ie focus the entire spec around Ambushes, and modify function (shatter) skills to either enhance subsequent ambushes somehow, or even become unique ambush triggers - for clones delivering the damage through ambush attacks, F1 providing an increased direct damage of ambush, F2, condi, etc... (I've written lot about this somewhere but can't find the thread...). As with Chrono, Mirage shouldn't have the same ability as Core to deal high F1/2 burst damage - instead shifting this to sustained play through clones. As such, analagous to Chrono, Mirage could even lose IP (self shatter) as well - HOWEVER, clones must also gain additional survivability - in the form of Infinite Horizon as baseline Grandmaster Minor trait, so whereas Chrono has tougher clones, Mirage would have evading clones - again compared with Core, in exchange for losing immediate function skill access and burst output.

Further Mirage possibilities:Of course it goes without saying that Mirage should get the second dodge back, especially taking into account all of the above. But regardless of anything else, Infinite Horizon becoming Grandmaster Minor (merge Speed of Sand to adept minor) is the single most important thing that must happen for Mirage to go anywhere solid in terms of foundation and potential for better build options. It would allow ambushes to be balanced across the entire spec - and possibly with function skill changes, if ambush damage is shifted away from clones and to the player - and then Function skills gave back the damage to clones for those specific keypresses only (not through regular ambush access on dodge), it could be an interesting way to play.

Dodge would open up ambush - clones would also ambush but do little/no damage, so you have to spot and avoid the player ambush only. But F1/F2/F3 would "supercharge" the clones to deal a direct/condi/cc ambush with unique visual effects.

As such, things like Sword/Trident ambush cc could be removed from clones baseline - and instead accessible across all weapons through F3 giving clones the ability to ambush with cc. This would also reign in cc spam from those weapons otherwise.

---

I believe all that, or something along those lines would further differentiate each mesmer spec, and make it more unique to play while also hopefully stemming some of the problems that have occurred by leaving eg shatter skills as they are while introducing various elite spec mechanics (eg Chrono having the past ability to shatter spam burst through F5, or Mirage's ability to put evade frames wherever they like to do uninterruptable burst).

Again, in the past maybe I would write more detail and try to explain it more clearly, but hopefully that is enough flavour to go on for overarching themes and ideal playstyle differences between the specs.

[XenesisII.1540]

So mirage not getting un-kitten because pve skill team.Ok good talk./rolls eyes

[Shiyo.3578]

If you want to buff mesmer in any capacity you absolutely NEED to delete 1 shot perma stealth mesmer. I just got out of a game where the mesmer was perma stealthed and INSTANTLY killing me on thief with 20645 HP from stealth. This was in a platinum level game, not low tier clown fiestas. There was no avoiding it - no dodging, no predicting it, the dude would burst you from stealth and you were INSTANTLY dead the second he hit you unless you were lucky and randomly dodging someone else. This is 20645 HP and 2029 armor - pretty absurd if you ask me.

Imo, please make chrono an actual "support" and completely revamp wells to follow you around like facets with actives or something. Chrono could be really cool and fun but in it's current form it's either a bunker sitting with wells or just...useless.

[XenesisII.1540]

@"Shiyo.3578" said:If you want to buff mesmer in any capacity you absolutely NEED to delete 1 shot perma stealth mesmer. I just got out of a game where the mesmer was perma stealthed and INSTANTLY killing me on thief with 20645 HP from stealth. This was in a platinum level game, not low tier clown fiestas. There was no avoiding it - no dodging, no predicting it, the dude would burst you from stealth and you were INSTANTLY dead the second he hit you unless you were lucky and randomly dodging someone else. This is 20645 HP and 2029 armor - pretty absurd if you ask me.

Imo, please make chrono an actual "support" and completely revamp wells to follow you around like facets with actives or something. Chrono could be really cool and fun but in it's current form it's either a bunker sitting with wells or just...useless.

Sure, as long as you do the same to thieves too, because they can do the same thing and have access to more stealth and mobility.

[Shiyo.3578]

No, thief cannot do 20645 damage from stealth instantly. it's not mathematically possible, and if it is , yes, nerf that too. But perma stealth in general is an issue, not just a mesmer one, as well as hiding animations in stealth.

The second you press a skill, you should unstealth. Not at the end of your skill, at the START.

[Moradorin.6217]

@Shiyo.3578 said:The second you press a skill, you should unstealth. Not at the end of your skill, at the START.Yes I agree, but as Xene said, this is typically an issue attributed to thief. I would not say this really an issue with mesmer at present. Mesmer has never had good stealth access. If this was an actual thing it would be around in wvw and its not.

If anything you faced off against one of the many cheats/hacks around that are apparently common in pvp now.

Can we see a post feb 2020 example?

[Moradorin.6217]

@"Curunen.8729" said:Well done Jazz for trying to push something positive again.

Unfortunately I'm of the opinion of mortrialus, Lincolnbeard and phokus so far - having spent countless hours in the past writing so much on this forum, I'm less inclined to want to waste my time that currently is more fun to enjoy playing other games.

But I suppose I can meet it halfway and go for some overarching statements and themes that I can write in a short time, rather than focusing on the individual traits and skills.

Spec themes:I'm of the opinion that Core mesmer should retain the old school IP shatter playstyle - that is, maximum burst damage potential through F1/2, and effectively be the best option for burst power builds so far (until potentially the future elite spec). Regarding clone generation, there should be additional options to Deceptive Evasion in other traitlines for the sake of variety and experimentation - eg, spawn clone on interrupting an enemy (maybe in domination).

Chrono being more of a support spec should ideally have had PBAOE function skills to provide eg area buff/debuffs that get fuelled by clones. It would lose the damage nuking burst potential Core mesmer has in favour of better support and control/denial options. I actually think it is interesting for Chrono to have lost IP, but there was no compensation - if this remains the case then certainly Chrono clones should have PvE damage reduction for being untargeted - so they cannot be easily cleaved/aoed, but ideall Chrono would sacrifice immediate and burst function skill usage for this.

Mirage should play more of a sustained damage in comparison to the burst of Core - ie focus the entire spec around Ambushes, and modify function (shatter) skills to either enhance subsequent ambushes somehow, or even become unique ambush triggers - for clones delivering the damage through ambush attacks, F1 providing an increased direct damage of ambush, F2, condi, etc... (I've written lot about this somewhere but can't find the thread...). As with Chrono, Mirage shouldn't have the same ability as Core to deal high F1/2 burst damage - instead shifting this to sustained play through clones. As such, analagous to Chrono, Mirage could even lose IP (self shatter) as well - HOWEVER, clones must also gain additional survivability - in the form of Infinite Horizon as baseline Grandmaster Minor trait, so whereas Chrono has tougher clones, Mirage would have evading clones - again compared with Core, in exchange for losing immediate function skill access and burst output.

Further Mirage possibilities:Of course it goes without saying that Mirage should get the second dodge back, especially taking into account all of the above. But regardless of anything else, Infinite Horizon becoming Grandmaster Minor (merge Speed of Sand to adept minor) is the single most important thing that must happen for Mirage to go anywhere solid in terms of foundation and potential for better build options. It would allow ambushes to be balanced across the entire spec - and possibly with function skill changes, if ambush damage is shifted away from clones and to the player - and then Function skills gave back the damage to clones for those specific keypresses only (not through regular ambush access on dodge), it could be an interesting way to play.

Dodge would open up ambush - clones would also ambush but do little/no damage, so you have to spot and avoid the player ambush only. But F1/F2/F3 would "supercharge" the clones to deal a direct/condi/cc ambush with unique visual effects.

As such, things like Sword/Trident ambush cc could be removed from clones baseline - and instead accessible across all weapons through F3 giving clones the ability to ambush with cc. This would also reign in cc spam from those weapons otherwise.

---

I believe all that, or something along those lines would further differentiate each mesmer spec, and make it more unique to play while also hopefully stemming some of the problems that have occurred by leaving eg shatter skills as they are while introducing various elite spec mechanics (eg Chrono having the past ability to shatter spam burst through F5, or Mirage's ability to put evade frames wherever they like to do uninterruptable burst).

Again, in the past maybe I would write more detail and try to explain it more clearly, but hopefully that is enough flavour to go on for overarching themes and ideal playstyle differences between the specs.

I wrote out my previous post too quickly without thinking back much about the topic. Im tired of thinking about balance and have given up on the idea of Mesmer ever being good again so I left out some things.

I 100% agree I think Mirage should have IH as baseline with maybe a trait to replace IH that changes MC behavior to make it act like core clones for some kind of Mirage shatter build option that would alter IH which would then be part of the same baseline that MC is. In other words, integrate IH into MC, but maybe replace IH with a new trait that alters clone ambush damage and enhances shatters so mirage still has shatter build options or some other GM to replace IH not sure on that its just a thought. It seems like if IH was baseline it would make balancing ambush damage allot easier but then perhaps Mirage shatters would need to lose some benefits in exchange for IH becoming baseline and maybe it could gain better clone survival so ambushes and IH can work in more situations so shatters aren't necessary. Or perhaps the clone enhancement wouldnt be necessary I cant decide.

[Shiyo.3578]

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:The second you press a skill, you should unstealth. Not at the end of your skill, at the START.Yes I agree, but as Xene said, this is typically an issue attributed to thief. I would not say this really an issue with mesmer at present. Mesmer has never had good stealth access. If this was an actual thing it would be around in wvw and its not.

If anything you faced off against one of the many cheats/hacks around that are apparently common in pvp now.

Can we see a post feb 2020 example?

This was a post feb 2020 match I just played today in platinum. The guy was perma stealthed and would IMMEDIATELY 1 shot me from stealth with 20645 hp. I won the game so I highly doubt he was hacking.

[Moradorin.6217]

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:The second you press a skill, you should unstealth. Not at the end of your skill, at the START.Yes I agree, but as Xene said, this is typically an issue attributed to thief. I would not say this really an issue with mesmer at present. Mesmer has never had good stealth access. If this was an actual thing it would be around in wvw and its not.

If anything you faced off against one of the many cheats/hacks around that are apparently common in pvp now.

Can we see a post feb 2020 example?

This was a post feb 2020 match I just played today in platinum. The guy was perma stealthed and would IMMEDIATELY 1 shot me from stealth with 20645 hp. I won the game so I highly doubt he was hacking.

Well I meant that Mesmer has nothing close to perma stealth. Maybe you just didnt pay attention or had your sound off? Normally you see and hear the mesmer before they stealth unless you are distracted because the stealth always has a limited window. Without I mean if you packed like everything possible for stealth at the cost of other utility including your elite and traited for stealth you still arent going to get more then 20-30 sec with what would then be over a 1 minute cooldown and you would have nothing left to do anything. So I was just responding to what you described.

[excelsior.2168]

I think the chronomancer should be completely reworked. I think it should be a clone-less and phantasm-less elite specialization. Been playing my soulbeast a lot lately and not having to worry about the AI of a pet has helped a lot (I already enjoyed ranger with the pet).

But for chronomancer. Get rid of clones and phantasms and completely redo it. ANet has repeatedly destroyed their own unique MMO class to be a farce and need to get their head out of their kitten and listen to the players. I haven't played mirage much to comment on it. But I was super stoked about the chronomancer and it has fallen short of falling short.

[ThatOtherAlt.2984]

@"Jazz.4639" said:just to give you a start point:cmc couldnt say a lot about chrono (changes were done by someone else, but he will look into it) but he clearly said, that they found that mirage cloak dodge is an unhealthy mechanic, too forgiving (what was kind of funny considering how forgiving other classes are to play in their defensive mechanics compared to a squishy mesmer). sure, the 2 abilities to cast while dodging or to dodge while being stunned combined in one dodge is by itself broken, or at least pretty strong. they did "hardhandle it" with deleting one dodge, i guess duo to missing ideas how to deal with it otherwise and prob due to some problems to get mechanical pvp changes done which are mostly in hand of the pve skill team.

i asked if it is possible to delete the ability to dodge while being stunned and didnt get a clear answer, but it sounded more like it might not be possible. the dodge is either instant and has no animation and for that the mirage can cast while using the dodge and can dodge while being stunned (same way you can use every instant skill during stun and during using other skills) or they turn it into a normal dodge and mirage cant do any of it anymore. with other words changing mc itself (the mechanic, the abilities mc brings by itself) seems not possible.

so all we can do is to put the strong mechanic of mc into a mechanical concept that balance out the strong abilities. anet did it with deleting one dodge what is a bad solution bc it destroys the mirage mechanic and even dumbs it down. i think the old 2 dodge power mirage proved already, that a mirage spec can be balanced and high skill need even with mc used. the correct ambush design seems to be key by giving the need to mirage to dodge offensive to have enough impact and that way create a hard decision making and higher cost in that decision making about when and for what to use the dodges.but more of that from me later.

MC would be manageable if we delete mirros or rework them to do something else. Limiting the sources of MC, makes it much easier to balance long term.Chronophantasma needs to be reworked if chrono is to exist. As CP is right now it's either broken or useless.

Edit: As much as I like some of the suggestions, it feels like they're looking for concept to build upon in their own image. So it's more likely to get better results, by just sticking to raw problems you experience and what can be done to improve those, as opposed to "Why'd you nerf this, unnerf!"

[Curunen.8729]

@Moradorin.6217 Sorry I missed that, yeah also agree here.

[Yoci.2481]

@"Shiyo.3578" said:If you want to buff mesmer in any capacity you absolutely NEED to delete 1 shot perma stealth mesmer. I just got out of a game where the mesmer was perma stealthed and INSTANTLY killing me on thief with 20645 HP from stealth. This was in a platinum level game, not low tier clown fiestas. There was no avoiding it - no dodging, no predicting it, the dude would burst you from stealth and you were INSTANTLY dead the second he hit you unless you were lucky and randomly dodging someone else. This is 20645 HP and 2029 armor - pretty absurd if you ask me.

Imo, please make chrono an actual "support" and completely revamp wells to follow you around like facets with actives or something. Chrono could be really cool and fun but in it's current form it's either a bunker sitting with wells or just...useless.

Mesmer doesn't have perma stealth. Torch stealth is 3 seconds at a cool down of 30 seconds, 2 seconds from signet (35 second cool down) and 6 seconds from mass invis (75 second cool down, 60 traited) for a total duration of 11 seconds (16.5 with PU trait). If you add Decoy (3 second stealth, 45 second cool down) you lose the daze mantra. One shots are rare but yes, Thief is one of the professions that actually can get one shot occasionally. Although it's not really a one shot, it's a combination of at least 5 different skills (not counting stealth) and can only be done once every 35 seconds (28 with Master of Manipulation). If you react quickly you can often just dodge the damage. Use your second dodge for Phantasmal Berserker and pressure the Mesmer, because he now has nothing left to hurt you for another 8 or so seconds.

If what you describe really happened like that the Mesmer was hacking in some way.