[Doc] Mesmer changes suggestions for CmC

[Taril.8619]

@viquing.8254 said:Duellist discipline and sharped images get destroyed.

You can say that about literally every single trait for Mesmer though.

@viquing.8254 said:Blinding dissipation is 1.5 sec and didn't put damage without ineptitude and ineptitude was already nerfed.

Duration is not important, what is important is that it procs Ineptitude.

Ineptitude still provides condition damage.

@viquing.8254 said:It's not a boost to condi anymore. only a clone generation traitline while playing condi.

It still can provide condi damage. Which is why it's meta for PvE Condi builds.

The fact that alternative utility surpasses the condi damage provided by the spec (Due to nerfs) doesn't negate the fact that the spec still provides condi damage.

@viquing.8254 said:

Chaos

-

Method of Madness

(Create a Lesser Chaos Storm when using a healing skill),

Chaotic Transference

(Gain Condition Damage based on Toughness, gain Expertise based on Concentration) and

Chaotic Persistence

(Outgoing Boon and Condition durations increased for each unique boon on you)Though, Chaos is pretty pants for actual condi damage and seems geared more towards some sort of Apothecary/Plaguedoctor support build.90 sec CD such a high damage boost.

75s CD (35s PvE) not 90.

Though, the stat boosts are not on a cooldown.

@viquing.8254 said:No, there is only illusion who realsticly boost condi output currently.

No. Illusion is the one spec that provides enough condi damage increase to justify over running other utilities or sources of damage in PvP (I.e. Domination is used for the extra Vuln stacks and Boonrip)

Just like happens within Illusions and Mirage specs, where Condi damage traits are passed over for more impactful utilities (I.e. Master of Fragmentation instead of might from Phantasmal Force or lulScepter trait. Elusive Mind instead of Infinite Horizon due to nerfed Ambushes)

[bravan.3876]

@Taril.8619 said:

@viquing.8254 said:Duellist discipline and sharped images get destroyed.

You can say that about literally every single trait for Mesmer though.

@viquing.8254 said:Blinding dissipation is 1.5 sec and didn't put damage without ineptitude and ineptitude was already nerfed.

Duration is not important, what is important is that it procs Ineptitude.

Ineptitude still provides condition damage.

@viquing.8254 said:It's not a boost to condi anymore. only a clone generation traitline while playing condi.

It still can provide condi damage. Which is why it's meta for PvE Condi builds.

The fact that alternative utility surpasses the condi damage provided by the spec (Due to nerfs) doesn't negate the fact that the spec still provides condi damage.

@viquing.8254 said:

Chaos

-

Method of Madness

(Create a Lesser Chaos Storm when using a healing skill),

Chaotic Transference

(Gain Condition Damage based on Toughness, gain Expertise based on Concentration) and

Chaotic Persistence

(Outgoing Boon and Condition durations increased for each unique boon on you)Though, Chaos is pretty pants for actual condi damage and seems geared more towards some sort of Apothecary/Plaguedoctor support build.90 sec CD such a high damage boost.

75s CD (35s PvE) not 90.

Though, the stat boosts are not on a cooldown.

@viquing.8254 said:No, there is only illusion who realsticly boost condi output currently.

No. Illusion is the one spec that provides enough condi damage increase to justify over running other utilities or sources of damage in PvP (I.e. Domination is used for the extra Vuln stacks and Boonrip)

Just like happens within Illusions and Mirage specs, where Condi damage traits are passed over for more impactful utilities (I.e. Master of Fragmentation instead of might from Phantasmal Force or lulScepter trait. Elusive Mind instead of Infinite Horizon due to nerfed Ambushes)

Not to mention that i said 1 (111111) at max 2 condi dmg traitlines. Means it doesn't even matter if ti is 1 or 2 for my point about mechancial trade offs in traitlines when traiting into elites. Condi builds for Mesmer have no trade off in terms of dmg when going for elites because they in general only have 1 or max 2 traitlines for that on core.

[viquing.8254]

@Taril.8619 said:

@viquing.8254 said:Blinding dissipation is 1.5 sec and didn't put damage without ineptitude and ineptitude was already nerfed.

Duration is not important, what is important is that it procs Ineptitude.In which world 2 stack of confusion with 2 sec duration on 21 sec CD is considered as condition output buff ?Ineptitude still provides condition damage.

@viquing.8254 said:It's not a boost to condi anymore. only a clone generation traitline while playing condi.

It still can provide condi damage. Which is why it's meta for PvE Condi builds.Because in PvE there isn't half nerf.The fact that alternative utility surpasses the condi damage provided by the spec (Due to nerfs) doesn't negate the fact that the spec still provides condi damage.When any other traitline give enough sustain to do 2 auto that outdamage the said condi damage, I hope you understand how inaccurate the condi damage are.

@viquing.8254 said:No, there is only illusion who realsticly boost condi output currently.

No. Illusion is the one spec that provides enough condi damage increase to justify over running other utilities or sources of damage in PvP (I.e. Domination is used for the extra Vuln stacks and Boonrip)Just like happens within Illusions and Mirage specs, where Condi damage traits are passed over for more impactful utilities (I.e. Master of Fragmentation instead of might from Phantasmal Force or lulScepter trait. Elusive Mind instead of Infinite Horizon due to nerfed Ambushes)Domination is used to counter condi rev under resistance, as long as there isn't this use case, this build ins't the meta build and currently it isn't.

[viquing.8254]

@bravan.3876 said:

@Taril.8619 said:

@viquing.8254 said:Duellist discipline and sharped images get destroyed.

You can say that about literally every single trait for Mesmer though.

@viquing.8254 said:Blinding dissipation is 1.5 sec and didn't put damage without ineptitude and ineptitude was already nerfed.

Duration is not important, what is important is that it procs Ineptitude.

Ineptitude still provides condition damage.

@viquing.8254 said:It's not a boost to condi anymore. only a clone generation traitline while playing condi.

It still can provide condi damage. Which is why it's meta for PvE Condi builds.

The fact that alternative utility surpasses the condi damage provided by the spec (Due to nerfs) doesn't negate the fact that the spec still provides condi damage.

@viquing.8254 said:

Chaos

-

Method of Madness

(Create a Lesser Chaos Storm when using a healing skill),

Chaotic Transference

(Gain Condition Damage based on Toughness, gain Expertise based on Concentration) and

Chaotic Persistence

(Outgoing Boon and Condition durations increased for each unique boon on you)Though, Chaos is pretty pants for actual condi damage and seems geared more towards some sort of Apothecary/Plaguedoctor support build.90 sec CD such a high damage boost.

75s CD (35s PvE) not 90.

Though, the stat boosts are not on a cooldown.

@viquing.8254 said:No, there is only illusion who realsticly boost condi output currently.

No. Illusion is the one spec that provides enough condi damage increase to justify over running other utilities or sources of damage in PvP (I.e. Domination is used for the extra Vuln stacks and Boonrip)

Just like happens within Illusions and Mirage specs, where Condi damage traits are passed over for more impactful utilities (I.e. Master of Fragmentation instead of might from Phantasmal Force or lulScepter trait. Elusive Mind instead of Infinite Horizon due to nerfed Ambushes)

Not to mention that i said 1 (111111) at max 2 condi dmg traitlines. Means it doesn't even matter if ti is 1 or 2 for my point about mechancial trade offs in traitlines when traiting into elites. Condi builds for Mesmer have no trade off in terms of dmg when going for elites because they in general only have 1 or max 2 traitlines for that on core.

Then where are your suggestions to bring condi output on core traitlines instead of making full of counter combo mechanic on elite ?

[bravan.3876]

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Taril.8619 said:

@viquing.8254 said:Duellist discipline and sharped images get destroyed.

You can say that about literally every single trait for Mesmer though.

@viquing.8254 said:Blinding dissipation is 1.5 sec and didn't put damage without ineptitude and ineptitude was already nerfed.

Duration is not important, what is important is that it procs Ineptitude.

Ineptitude still provides condition damage.

@viquing.8254 said:It's not a boost to condi anymore. only a clone generation traitline while playing condi.

It still can provide condi damage. Which is why it's meta for PvE Condi builds.

The fact that alternative utility surpasses the condi damage provided by the spec (Due to nerfs) doesn't negate the fact that the spec still provides condi damage.

@viquing.8254 said:

Chaos

-

Method of Madness

(Create a Lesser Chaos Storm when using a healing skill),

Chaotic Transference

(Gain Condition Damage based on Toughness, gain Expertise based on Concentration) and

Chaotic Persistence

(Outgoing Boon and Condition durations increased for each unique boon on you)Though, Chaos is pretty pants for actual condi damage and seems geared more towards some sort of Apothecary/Plaguedoctor support build.90 sec CD such a high damage boost.

75s CD (35s PvE) not 90.

Though, the stat boosts are not on a cooldown.

@viquing.8254 said:No, there is only illusion who realsticly boost condi output currently.

No. Illusion is the one spec that provides enough condi damage increase to justify over running other utilities or sources of damage in PvP (I.e. Domination is used for the extra Vuln stacks and Boonrip)

Just like happens within Illusions and Mirage specs, where Condi damage traits are passed over for more impactful utilities (I.e. Master of Fragmentation instead of might from Phantasmal Force or lulScepter trait. Elusive Mind instead of Infinite Horizon due to nerfed Ambushes)

Not to mention that i said 1 (111111) at max 2 condi dmg traitlines. Means it doesn't even matter if ti is 1 or 2 for my point about mechancial trade offs in traitlines when traiting into elites. Condi builds for Mesmer have no trade off in terms of dmg when going for elites because they in general only have 1 or max 2 traitlines for that on core.

Then where are your suggestions to bring condi output on core traitlines instead of making full of counter combo mechanic on elite ?

The topic of this thread is to give alternatives to the one dodge nerf not to buff core Mesmer. We try to find solutions to make Condi Ih Mirage playable with 2 dodges without it being a problem in Anets eyes anymore what it obviously was. Anet wants trade offs, Anet wants reduced defensive and offensive power from mc. And that is what i am trying to do and what you need to do if you want any suggestions in this document to even be considered by Anet. Anet doesn't even accept the replacement of a core traitline for elite traitline as trade off. I do that at least but it is a fact that Condimes has lower trade off than power builds when traiting into elite. I try to solve this problem with a dmg transfer and not a nerf. A transfer that leads to more Mirage specific gameplay, more different to core, that is what Anet wants elites to be anyway. Not an upgrade from core just another playstyle. We talk about mechanics here and not pls buff the power lvl of my main mimimi and what is viable or not.Why Condi Ih was more of a porblem and a more passive style than power has 2 reasons: the worse ambush design on condi weapons and the weaker trade off in traitlines in terms of dmg. Both leads to Condimirage not rly need to use Mirage specific gameplay (ambush gameplay) in an active way (offensive dodges) enough to balance out mc.That is the topic and not buffs or nerfs. The power lvl in terms of how much dmg power and condi IH Mirages can do AFTER the mechanical rework is easy to adjust by Anet then and don't need to be discussed here. This can't be too hard to understand!

[Leonidrex.5649]

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Taril.8619 said:

@viquing.8254 said:Duellist discipline and sharped images get destroyed.

You can say that about literally every single trait for Mesmer though.

@viquing.8254 said:Blinding dissipation is 1.5 sec and didn't put damage without ineptitude and ineptitude was already nerfed.

Duration is not important, what is important is that it procs Ineptitude.

Ineptitude still provides condition damage.

@viquing.8254 said:It's not a boost to condi anymore. only a clone generation traitline while playing condi.

It still can provide condi damage. Which is why it's meta for PvE Condi builds.

The fact that alternative utility surpasses the condi damage provided by the spec (Due to nerfs) doesn't negate the fact that the spec still provides condi damage.

@viquing.8254 said:

Chaos

-

Method of Madness

(Create a Lesser Chaos Storm when using a healing skill),

Chaotic Transference

(Gain Condition Damage based on Toughness, gain Expertise based on Concentration) and

Chaotic Persistence

(Outgoing Boon and Condition durations increased for each unique boon on you)Though, Chaos is pretty pants for actual condi damage and seems geared more towards some sort of Apothecary/Plaguedoctor support build.90 sec CD such a high damage boost.

75s CD (35s PvE) not 90.

Though, the stat boosts are not on a cooldown.

@viquing.8254 said:No, there is only illusion who realsticly boost condi output currently.

No. Illusion is the one spec that provides enough condi damage increase to justify over running other utilities or sources of damage in PvP (I.e. Domination is used for the extra Vuln stacks and Boonrip)

Just like happens within Illusions and Mirage specs, where Condi damage traits are passed over for more impactful utilities (I.e. Master of Fragmentation instead of might from Phantasmal Force or lulScepter trait. Elusive Mind instead of Infinite Horizon due to nerfed Ambushes)

Not to mention that i said 1 (111111) at max 2 condi dmg traitlines. Means it doesn't even matter if ti is 1 or 2 for my point about mechancial trade offs in traitlines when traiting into elites. Condi builds for Mesmer have no trade off in terms of dmg when going for elites because they in general only have 1 or max 2 traitlines for that on core.

Then where are your suggestions to bring condi output on core traitlines instead of making full of counter combo mechanic on elite ?

The topic of this thread is to give alternatives to the one dodge nerf not to buff core Mesmer. We try to find solutions to make Condi Ih Mirage playable with 2 dodges without it being a problem in Anets eyes anymore what it obviously was. Anet wants trade offs, Anet wants reduced defensive and offensive power from mc. And that is what i am trying to do and what you need to do if you want any suggestions in this document to even be considered by Anet. Anet doesn't even accept the replacement of a core traitline for elite traitline as trade off. I do that at least but it is a fact that Condimes has lower trade off than power builds when traiting into elite. I try to solve this problem with a dmg transfer and not a nerf. A transfer that leads to more Mirage specific gameplay, more different to core, that is what Anet wants elites to be anyway. Not an upgrade from core just another playstyle. We talk about mechanics here and not pls buff the power lvl of my main mimimi and what is viable or not.Why Condi Ih was more of a porblem and a more passive style than power has 2 reasons: the worse ambush design on condi weapons and the weaker trade off in traitlines in terms of dmg. Both leads to Condimirage not rly need to use Mirage specific gameplay (ambush gameplay) in an active way (offensive dodges) enough to balance out mc.That is the topic and not buffs or nerfs. The power lvl in terms of how much dmg power and condi IH Mirages can do AFTER the mechanical rework is easy to adjust by Anet then and don't need to be discussed here. This can't be too hard to understand!

your main problem is having an opinion and instantly working under the assumption that you are right.this is not " mirage with ih and 2 dodges post" its -> "Mesmer changes suggestions for CmC"mesmer includes all specs

[bravan.3876]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Taril.8619 said:

@viquing.8254 said:Duellist discipline and sharped images get destroyed.

You can say that about literally every single trait for Mesmer though.

@viquing.8254 said:Blinding dissipation is 1.5 sec and didn't put damage without ineptitude and ineptitude was already nerfed.

Duration is not important, what is important is that it procs Ineptitude.

Ineptitude still provides condition damage.

@viquing.8254 said:It's not a boost to condi anymore. only a clone generation traitline while playing condi.

It still can provide condi damage. Which is why it's meta for PvE Condi builds.

The fact that alternative utility surpasses the condi damage provided by the spec (Due to nerfs) doesn't negate the fact that the spec still provides condi damage.

@viquing.8254 said:

Chaos

-

Method of Madness

(Create a Lesser Chaos Storm when using a healing skill),

Chaotic Transference

(Gain Condition Damage based on Toughness, gain Expertise based on Concentration) and

Chaotic Persistence

(Outgoing Boon and Condition durations increased for each unique boon on you)Though, Chaos is pretty pants for actual condi damage and seems geared more towards some sort of Apothecary/Plaguedoctor support build.90 sec CD such a high damage boost.

75s CD (35s PvE) not 90.

Though, the stat boosts are not on a cooldown.

@viquing.8254 said:No, there is only illusion who realsticly boost condi output currently.

No. Illusion is the one spec that provides enough condi damage increase to justify over running other utilities or sources of damage in PvP (I.e. Domination is used for the extra Vuln stacks and Boonrip)

Just like happens within Illusions and Mirage specs, where Condi damage traits are passed over for more impactful utilities (I.e. Master of Fragmentation instead of might from Phantasmal Force or lulScepter trait. Elusive Mind instead of Infinite Horizon due to nerfed Ambushes)

Not to mention that i said 1 (111111) at max 2 condi dmg traitlines. Means it doesn't even matter if ti is 1 or 2 for my point about mechancial trade offs in traitlines when traiting into elites. Condi builds for Mesmer have no trade off in terms of dmg when going for elites because they in general only have 1 or max 2 traitlines for that on core.

Then where are your suggestions to bring condi output on core traitlines instead of making full of counter combo mechanic on elite ?

The topic of this thread is to give alternatives to the one dodge nerf not to buff core Mesmer. We try to find solutions to make Condi Ih Mirage playable with 2 dodges without it being a problem in Anets eyes anymore what it obviously was. Anet wants trade offs, Anet wants reduced defensive and offensive power from mc. And that is what i am trying to do and what you need to do if you want any suggestions in this document to even be considered by Anet. Anet doesn't even accept the replacement of a core traitline for elite traitline as trade off. I do that at least but it is a fact that Condimes has lower trade off than power builds when traiting into elite. I try to solve this problem with a dmg transfer and not a nerf. A transfer that leads to more Mirage specific gameplay, more different to core, that is what Anet wants elites to be anyway. Not an upgrade from core just another playstyle. We talk about mechanics here and not pls buff the power lvl of my main mimimi and what is viable or not.Why Condi Ih was more of a porblem and a more passive style than power has 2 reasons: the worse ambush design on condi weapons and the weaker trade off in traitlines in terms of dmg. Both leads to Condimirage not rly need to use Mirage specific gameplay (ambush gameplay) in an active way (offensive dodges) enough to balance out mc.That is the topic and not buffs or nerfs. The power lvl in terms of how much dmg power and condi IH Mirages can do AFTER the mechanical rework is easy to adjust by Anet then and don't need to be discussed here. This can't be too hard to understand!

your main problem is having an opinion and instantly working under the assumption that you are right.this is not " mirage with ih and 2 dodges post" its -> "Mesmer changes suggestions for CmC"mesmer includes all specs

@"Jazz.4639" said:To give you guys a perspective and hopefully reduce the confusion about what is the topic for the first document. my plan is to make several and for that shorter and more focused documents to specific topics.

Doc 1. Mirage/ chrono mechanic issues. Alternative nerfs to mc instead the one dodge deletion, some minor chrono suggestionsDoc 2. Mesmer class balance issues. Core weapons skills and core traits, rework/ buff & nerf suggestionsDoc 3. we can find a topic together, from what you guys wrote until now i think the first 2 documents would cover most points you made until now

You rly need to learn to read

[Leonidrex.5649]

@bravan.3876 its nice when you prove yourself wrong for me :)btw read the title of the topic, its the least you can do before you post

[bravan.3876]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@bravan.3876 its nice when you prove yourself wrong for me :)btw read the title of the topic, its the least you can do before you postWait what? :joy:

[MidJuly.1839]

@bravan.3876 @Leonidrex.5649 @mortrialus.3062 @viquing.8254 @"Jazz.4639" and everyone else that got dragged into this:Ok this thread started off with the usual overly positive suggestions and everyone holding hands and singing koombaya, but it's devolved into a sink for all the grudges, held between forum vets. I like to think that us Mesmers have always been the level headed side of the community, except when I get drunk and triggered obv. Can we please agree upon some semblance of constructive criticism, that doesn't result in pointing at each others' shortcomings over the past 5 years?

Bottomline is: Mesmer's current kit has all the damage (be it power or condi) to successfully execute its purpose in a fight (regardless of game mode). But it lacks the supplemental kit support (backbone?), to actually pull it off in live scenarios (Chaos and not the traitline, +1s, etc). So if you look at it in a vacuum, yea the options are there. You just never get to play the kit as expected, because of lackluster complementation.

Does Mesmer need a damage buff? I honestly think we're fine.Do we need a defensive buff? Probably not.Do we need massive QoL overhaul? Absolutely!As it is now, Mesmer has an auto-immune disease and has to fight against, its own mechanics to succeed.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@XenesisII.1540 said:/walks in whistling and hangs hat up/sees discussion on nerfs still/turns around, grabs hat, and walks back out while snort laughing that anet left the community to fix a class

The same ANerf that ignored all mesmer suggestions since release (except on post mirage preview tbf).

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice....

[anduriell.6280]

@"Jazz.4639" said:pls give me your ideas and suggestion. we then can discuss a bitgreetings jazz o/

Mesmer need an actual rework, same as thief although very interesting mechanics they are very difficult to balance. Mesmer is already build to be a bursty spec any additional push in that direction will only exacerbate the burst design of the spec.

• Chrono could become a support spec. All shatters become utility skills and all the class is themed in actual time manipulation. I've wrote in another thread what those skills might look like (https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/110099/chrono-needs-to-have-more-time-manipulation-skills). All shatter skills should become time manipulation skills to remove the burst potential in an spec now focus in group crowd control.

• Mirage could be a focus sustain spec. From my point of view it needs a complete redesign as the actual one brings too many potential issues with the hereditary skills and traits from core.

• Mirage lose access to clones. It gains access to one mirage.

• A mirage is called forward using F5. This mirage is a minion which functions as a clone but has better HP and stats (independient from the mesmer) and different sets of skills based on the weapons the mirage has equipped. Mirage shares boons/buffs from the mesmer. Mirage minion mimics mirage cloak uses from the mesmer.

• Mirage minion does not disappear when the target is killed, but has a time limited duration. The minion targets active mesmer targets same as any other minion in game.

• Balancing between durability of the minion and F5 CD should be done so the class is fun to play with but not oppressive due to the minion sustain.

• Shatter skills are reworked as Ambushes. This skills only can only be used when the minion is active and are designed to focus damage in one target. The mirage minion is not destroyed after the ambush.

• Traits could additionally include to: reduce CD for F5, improved stats for minion, increase attack speed for minion.

• Phantasms on the other hand gain additional attacks before they disappear. As the clones do not exists in this spec illusions are destroyed at the end of their cycle.

[bravan.3876]

@MidJuly.1839 said:@bravan.3876 @Leonidrex.5649 @mortrialus.3062 @viquing.8254 @"Jazz.4639" and everyone else that got dragged into this:Ok this thread started off with the usual overly positive suggestions and everyone holding hands and singing koombaya, but it's devolved into a sink for all the grudges, held between forum vets. I like to think that us Mesmers have always been the level headed side of the community, except when I get drunk and triggered obv. Can we please agree upon some semblance of constructive criticism, that doesn't result in pointing at each others' shortcomings over the past 5 years?

I agree and when you re-check the thread you never see me jumping and flaming on other ppl ideas while i get jumped and flamed for at least 50% of my ideas because ppl accuse me of hating Condimes and that i try to nerf it into the ground as an undercover agent or something. They even jump on ideas do not include any nerfs. They flame ideas they obviously do not even understand. It is ridiculous.

[Ansau.7326]

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Taril.8619 said:

@viquing.8254 said:Duellist discipline and sharped images get destroyed.

You can say that about literally every single trait for Mesmer though.

@viquing.8254 said:Blinding dissipation is 1.5 sec and didn't put damage without ineptitude and ineptitude was already nerfed.

Duration is not important, what is important is that it procs Ineptitude.

Ineptitude still provides condition damage.

@viquing.8254 said:It's not a boost to condi anymore. only a clone generation traitline while playing condi.

It still can provide condi damage. Which is why it's meta for PvE Condi builds.

The fact that alternative utility surpasses the condi damage provided by the spec (Due to nerfs) doesn't negate the fact that the spec still provides condi damage.

@viquing.8254 said:

Chaos

-

Method of Madness

(Create a Lesser Chaos Storm when using a healing skill),

Chaotic Transference

(Gain Condition Damage based on Toughness, gain Expertise based on Concentration) and

Chaotic Persistence

(Outgoing Boon and Condition durations increased for each unique boon on you)Though, Chaos is pretty pants for actual condi damage and seems geared more towards some sort of Apothecary/Plaguedoctor support build.90 sec CD such a high damage boost.

75s CD (35s PvE) not 90.

Though, the stat boosts are not on a cooldown.

@viquing.8254 said:No, there is only illusion who realsticly boost condi output currently.

No. Illusion is the one spec that provides enough condi damage increase to justify over running other utilities or sources of damage in PvP (I.e. Domination is used for the extra Vuln stacks and Boonrip)

Just like happens within Illusions and Mirage specs, where Condi damage traits are passed over for more impactful utilities (I.e. Master of Fragmentation instead of might from Phantasmal Force or lulScepter trait. Elusive Mind instead of Infinite Horizon due to nerfed Ambushes)

Not to mention that i said 1 (111111) at max 2 condi dmg traitlines. Means it doesn't even matter if ti is 1 or 2 for my point about mechancial trade offs in traitlines when traiting into elites. Condi builds for Mesmer have no trade off in terms of dmg when going for elites because they in general only have 1 or max 2 traitlines for that on core.

Then where are your suggestions to bring condi output on core traitlines instead of making full of counter combo mechanic on elite ?

The topic of this thread is to give alternatives to the one dodge nerf not to buff core Mesmer. We try to find solutions to make Condi Ih Mirage playable with 2 dodges without it being a problem in Anets eyes anymore what it obviously was. Anet wants trade offs, Anet wants reduced defensive and offensive power from mc. And that is what i am trying to do and what you need to do if you want any suggestions in this document to even be considered by Anet.

1. Alternatives have been provided by plenty and since the beginning. And yet, anet has never implemented any.
2. The trade-off thing was just an excuse to bring down broken specs without waiting for mechanics to be changed.

Main balance issues are mechanic related and not numbers. But guess what, mechanics are developed by game designers for pve mainly.So balance people like CMC are left in a void where they can only tweak things to fix the mess anet left them.

I'm saying this because you (and this thread) is doing nothing but beating a dead horse.

[mortrialus.3062]

@MidJuly.1839 said:@bravan.3876 @Leonidrex.5649 @mortrialus.3062 @viquing.8254 @"Jazz.4639" and everyone else that got dragged into this:Ok this thread started off with the usual overly positive suggestions and everyone holding hands and singing koombaya, but it's devolved into a sink for all the grudges, held between forum vets. I like to think that us Mesmers have always been the level headed side of the community, except when I get drunk and triggered obv. Can we please agree upon some semblance of constructive criticism, that doesn't result in pointing at each others' shortcomings over the past 5 years?

Bottomline is: Mesmer's current kit has all the damage (be it power or condi) to successfully execute its purpose in a fight (regardless of game mode). But it lacks the supplemental kit support (backbone?), to actually pull it off in live scenarios (Chaos and not the traitline, +1s, etc). So if you look at it in a vacuum, yea the options are there. You just never get to play the kit as expected, because of lackluster complementation.

Does Mesmer need a damage buff? I honestly think we're fine.Do we need a defensive buff? Probably not.Do we need massive QoL overhaul? Absolutely!As it is now, Mesmer has an auto-immune disease and has to fight against, its own mechanics to succeed.

Going to disagree still. I'd actually say power and condi have the opposite problems. Power has a very, very strong burst still. Power's problem are how generally one trick it is, with comparably little flexibility and reliance on a very predictable burst. It's weapons, sword and greatsword, are kind of mediocre in terms of mobility and defense, if not outright kind of bad. Blurred Frenzy and Illusory Wave are really all the weapons really have to offer, and have zero mobility outside of Mirage proving Mirage Thrust. And because it's glassy and isn't getting mobility or much defense out of it's weapon baseline it's also forced to dedicate most or all it's utilities dedicated to survivability like stealth.

Condition Mirage on the other hand tends to have pretty solid weapons for defense, especially staff but scepter is good as well. It tends to have flexible weapon skills able to more flexibly juggle between skills and combo's compared to such heavy focus on one specific combo. Because it's weapons aren't bad for survivability it also has significantly more flexibility for what it runs for utilities compared Power Mesmer like things like Portal, Arcane Thievery, Illusion of Life if you're a troll like me.

Power doesn't have a damage problem due to Mind Wrack still getting it's job done. And it's in large part due to just how the skill works and scales with additional clones.

With just one clone you can potentially get a large amount of damage out of just a one clone shatter, because while there is a bonus for landing a full 3 clone shatter, it isn't 100% additive the way condition shatters are.

Like just experimenting with the medium target golems on a Berserker amulet I was getting damage numbers like:

Mind Wrack One Clone Burst: 7-8,000 damage total on critMind Wrack Three Clone Burst: 12,000 damage total on crit.

The bonus is there, but just one clone +mesmer is still a very sizable hit.

So it's easier to get large damage numbers from Mind Wrack. Not to mention it's on a 12 second untraited cooldown making is much more spammable.

Meanwhile Cry of Frustration is on a 24 second cooldown, and the damage is 100% additive. A 3 clone Mind Wrack might "only" do 50% more damage, but it's 50% more on what is already a VERY potent, spammable attack. Whereas Cry of Frustration might do 4x it's damage with a full 3 clone shatters, but the damage with 0-1 clone is just absolutely laughable.

Untraited Cry of Frustration with 1 clone is 2 stacks of confusion. With Illusions Cry of Frustration with 1 clone with do 4 stacks of confusion. With Illusions and Ineptitude Cry of Frustration will apply 8 stacks of confusion. And even with any of those you will be hard pressed no matter how much the person wildly spams into confusion to actually get 8k damage out of it. Now if you have 3 clones and 16 stacks of confusion now you're looking at serious damage numbers, but again we're talking about Confusion that has so much counterplay even after it lands, only lasts 3 seconds, requires 3x more set up than Mind Wrack, and has twice the cooldown.

And generally condition mesmer's primary damage skills just mathematically don't compare to other class's damage skills;

Berserker's Corona Burst: 5-6k 7k high heat, 6 second cooldownBerserker's Refraction Cutter high heat: 4.8k -7.5k damage depending on how many projectiles hit and how many they crit. 0.5 second wind up, 9 second cooldownBerserker's Death Strike: 4-6k 18 second cooldown 0.75 second wind up.Marauder's Soul Spiral: 6-8k damage 25 second cooldown traited, 1.5 seconds from start to finish traited.Berserker's Rapid Fire: 6k damage, 8 second cooldown, 2.5 seconds from start to finish.Berserker's Maul: 3.5-4k damage, 8s (6.5 traited) second cooldown, 0.75 from start to finish.Berserker's Barrage: 10k damage, 20 cooldown, 10 seconds from start to finish.Berserker's Backstab: 3.5k-4.5k damage.

Wizard Pistol Phantasm: 4,500, 6 seconds from start to finish, 20 second cooldown.Wizard Torch Phantasm: 6,000 (7,000 traited), 12 seconds from start to finish, 30 second cooldown 24 traited.Wizard's Staff Phantasm: 510 damage, 18 second cooldown, 7 seconds from start to finish.

And these are the hardest hitting skills for condition mesmer. It's only downhill from there. You aren't killing anyone with the 700 damage total in torment from Axe 2 (Seriously this skill should be like 3k in torment due to the cast time)and our auto attacks to fill in the gaps are literally the worst. The damage on phantasms isn't "bad" but they aren't great compared to other class's primary damage cooldowns due to the higher cooldowns. Also the staff phantasm is just the absolute biggest joke in the world.

Edit: I should check condi thief's repeater.

Double Edit:

Condi thief's pistol auto is 800 dps so it's as strong as mirage axe's auto with 900 range.

Shadow Strike into 2 Repeaters which you can do is 12,070 damage on what is practically an 8 second cooldown with 8 initiative. Comboing that with Steal and Spider Venom is 21,200 damage. That's without any confusion damage. It's an additional 2,200 per skill use under confusion with Bewildering Ambush. If you have Illusions and can't afford Ineptitude that's still a 2 clone+mesmer Cry of Frustration. It's fucking nuts how much more damage this build is doing than any variant of condition mesmer. Imagine if Axe 2 did freaking 12k condi damage lol.

[viquing.8254]

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Taril.8619 said:

@viquing.8254 said:Duellist discipline and sharped images get destroyed.

You can say that about literally every single trait for Mesmer though.

@viquing.8254 said:Blinding dissipation is 1.5 sec and didn't put damage without ineptitude and ineptitude was already nerfed.

Duration is not important, what is important is that it procs Ineptitude.

Ineptitude still provides condition damage.

@viquing.8254 said:It's not a boost to condi anymore. only a clone generation traitline while playing condi.

It still can provide condi damage. Which is why it's meta for PvE Condi builds.

The fact that alternative utility surpasses the condi damage provided by the spec (Due to nerfs) doesn't negate the fact that the spec still provides condi damage.

@viquing.8254 said:

Chaos

-

Method of Madness

(Create a Lesser Chaos Storm when using a healing skill),

Chaotic Transference

(Gain Condition Damage based on Toughness, gain Expertise based on Concentration) and

Chaotic Persistence

(Outgoing Boon and Condition durations increased for each unique boon on you)Though, Chaos is pretty pants for actual condi damage and seems geared more towards some sort of Apothecary/Plaguedoctor support build.90 sec CD such a high damage boost.

75s CD (35s PvE) not 90.

Though, the stat boosts are not on a cooldown.

@viquing.8254 said:No, there is only illusion who realsticly boost condi output currently.

No. Illusion is the one spec that provides enough condi damage increase to justify over running other utilities or sources of damage in PvP (I.e. Domination is used for the extra Vuln stacks and Boonrip)

Just like happens within Illusions and Mirage specs, where Condi damage traits are passed over for more impactful utilities (I.e. Master of Fragmentation instead of might from Phantasmal Force or lulScepter trait. Elusive Mind instead of Infinite Horizon due to nerfed Ambushes)

Not to mention that i said 1 (111111) at max 2 condi dmg traitlines. Means it doesn't even matter if ti is 1 or 2 for my point about mechancial trade offs in traitlines when traiting into elites. Condi builds for Mesmer have no trade off in terms of dmg when going for elites because they in general only have 1 or max 2 traitlines for that on core.

Then where are your suggestions to bring condi output on core traitlines instead of making full of counter combo mechanic on elite ?

The topic of this thread is to give alternatives to the one dodge nerf not to buff core Mesmer. We try to find solutions to make Condi Ih Mirage playable with 2 dodges without it being a problem in Anets eyes anymore what it obviously was. Anet wants trade offs, Anet wants reduced defensive and offensive power from mc. And that is what i am trying to do and what you need to do if you want any suggestions in this document to even be considered by Anet. Anet doesn't even accept the replacement of a core traitline for elite traitline as trade off. I do that at least but it is a fact that Condimes has lower trade off than power builds when traiting into elite. I try to solve this problem with a dmg transfer and not a nerf. A transfer that leads to more Mirage specific gameplay, more different to core, that is what Anet wants elites to be anyway. Not an upgrade from core just another playstyle. We talk about mechanics here and not pls buff the power lvl of my main mimimi and what is viable or not.Why Condi Ih was more of a porblem and a more passive style than power has 2 reasons: the worse ambush design on condi weapons and the weaker trade off in traitlines in terms of dmg. Both leads to Condimirage not rly need to use Mirage specific gameplay (ambush gameplay) in an active way (offensive dodges) enough to balance out mc.That is the topic and not buffs or nerfs. The power lvl in terms of how much dmg power and condi IH Mirages can do AFTER the mechanical rework is easy to adjust by Anet then and don't need to be discussed here. This can't be too hard to understand!

So you openly admit that to balance a core problem you apply glue to elite.Why condi ih were a problem was because : IH was the only usable GM. Letting clone auto-ing was better than weapon or shatter. Ambushes was only the cherry on the cake of theses builds and it synergize with clone autoing.If for example GS clones did 500 damage every attack, you would see exactly the same gameplay.Start by fixing core issues before looking at elite.

@bravan.3876 said:

@MidJuly.1839 said:@bravan.3876 @Leonidrex.5649 @mortrialus.3062 @viquing.8254 @"Jazz.4639" and everyone else that got dragged into this:Ok this thread started off with the usual overly positive suggestions and everyone holding hands and singing koombaya, but it's devolved into a sink for all the grudges, held between forum vets. I like to think that us Mesmers have always been the level headed side of the community, except when I get drunk and triggered obv. Can we please agree upon some semblance of constructive criticism, that doesn't result in pointing at each others' shortcomings over the past 5 years?

I agree and when you re-check the thread you never see me jumping and flaming on other ppl ideas while i get jumped and flamed for at least 50% of my ideas because ppl accuse me of hating Condimes and that i try to nerf it into the ground as an undercover agent or something. They even jump on ideas do not include any nerfs. They flame ideas they obviously do not even understand. It is ridiculous.

Yeah poor black sheep. Did you try pity as an argument ?You try to make something who look good on paper but who will be super cluncky to use in real game because reality ins't paper, you are between class who don 't have thoses prerequite or cluncky mechanics.

[Curunen.8729]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@MidJuly.1839 said:@bravan.3876 @Leonidrex.5649 @mortrialus.3062 @viquing.8254 @"Jazz.4639" and everyone else that got dragged into this:Ok this thread started off with the usual overly positive suggestions and everyone holding hands and singing koombaya, but it's devolved into a sink for all the grudges, held between forum vets. I like to think that us Mesmers have always been the level headed side of the community, except when I get drunk and triggered obv. Can we please agree upon some semblance of constructive criticism, that doesn't result in pointing at each others' shortcomings over the past 5 years?

Bottomline is: Mesmer's current kit has all the damage (be it power or condi) to successfully execute its purpose in a fight (regardless of game mode). But it lacks the supplemental kit support (backbone?), to actually pull it off in live scenarios (Chaos and not the traitline, +1s, etc). So if you look at it in a vacuum, yea the options are there. You just never get to play the kit as expected, because of lackluster complementation.

Does Mesmer need a damage buff? I honestly think we're fine.Do we need a defensive buff? Probably not.Do we need massive QoL overhaul? Absolutely!As it is now, Mesmer has an auto-immune disease and has to fight against, its own mechanics to succeed.

Going to disagree still. I'd actually say power and condi have the opposite problems.... [cut to reduce quote size] ...

Excellent breakdown and analysis. :+1:

[MidJuly.1839]

@mortrialus.3062I don't disagree but again you're taking it into a vacuum. A lot of mechanics have changed for other classes too. It's been 8 years and some mechanics that have been there since inception, are just not going to change. Yea Power shatter is predictable AF, but back in the day it was advertised as counterplay. Now you're looking at it as a downside.Yes Cry (f2) scales poorly, but the alternative would require further nerfs to application elsewhere.

The problem for me personally these days is, how unreliable clone AI and by proxy their Shatter pathing is. Not being able to reliably shatter on demand, in that exact moment when you press it, effectively giving your opponent extra time to dodge your carefully timed burst, is just a silly design. Think of how much that augmented, the way you play. That's why I loved Chrono so much, having the super speed on clones made all the difference in the world, for me. But that silly mechanic, opens up some interesting play options and some have really made use of it.

As for the discrepancy between condi Mes damage and other condi classes. Yes they're much lower, but the kit is designed around many small sources of pressure. Think along the line of, the longer you stay offensive the more condi you apply, whereas with other classes it's more focused. It seems like a weird choice at first, but if you consider we are able expected to dodge offensively, it kind of fits with the playstyle. Historically for me, the moment I go defensive, I tend to lose much more than if I go balls deep at 2k HP and scream "Banzai!"

@Mortialus I really appreciate the data. I usually play with estimates and rarely get actual figures. So thank you for that.

@Curunen.8729 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@MidJuly.1839 said:@bravan.3876 @Leonidrex.5649 @mortrialus.3062 @viquing.8254 @"Jazz.4639" and everyone else that got dragged into this:Ok this thread started off with the usual overly positive suggestions and everyone holding hands and singing koombaya, but it's devolved into a sink for all the grudges, held between forum vets. I like to think that us Mesmers have always been the level headed side of the community, except when I get drunk and triggered obv. Can we please agree upon some semblance of constructive criticism, that doesn't result in pointing at each others' shortcomings over the past 5 years?

Bottomline is: Mesmer's current kit has all the damage (be it power or condi) to successfully execute its purpose in a fight (regardless of game mode). But it lacks the supplemental kit support (backbone?), to actually pull it off in live scenarios (Chaos and not the traitline, +1s, etc). So if you look at it in a vacuum, yea the options are there. You just never get to play the kit as expected, because of lackluster complementation.

Does Mesmer need a damage buff? I honestly think we're fine.Do we need a defensive buff? Probably not.Do we need massive QoL overhaul? Absolutely!As it is now, Mesmer has an auto-immune disease and has to fight against, its own mechanics to succeed.

Going to disagree still. I'd actually say power and condi have the opposite problems.... [cut to reduce quote size] ...

Excellent breakdown and analysis. :+1:

Noob Mesmer, BAN, BAN!

To be edited as I'm on a roll. P.S. Ignore the incoherent gibberish, I've had a few.

[phokus.8934]

@XenesisII.1540 said:/walks in whistling and hangs hat up/sees discussion on nerfs still/turns around, grabs hat, and walks back out while snort laughing that anet left the community to fix a classThis is why these threads are completely useless. You get the same handful of people thinking their idea of a balanced class/game is going to be unique and great. The reality is that they are always shortsighted and never see the big picture. Zero thought goes into these posts.

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

hi sry for the delay i needed to reach weekend to make some time for this. i also will just ignore the beef and negativity and focus on the suggestions made, bc anything aside that is not rly helping me to keep my motivation up to put more time into this. in case i overlooked or missunderstood something while trying to go throu all the new posts then just correct me or add your suggestion again.

@Mungo Zen.9364 and @anduriell.6280 first: big thx for the constructive contribution! <3 sec: most of your concept ideas are already included in consept D variants (reworking shatters into more mirage specific stuff). we already have a lot of example ideas for concept D and i dont want the document to be too long. my plan is to add only around 2 example ideas for concepts reworking shatters and then will just add links to the other ones, so cmc can just jump into this thread to the exact comment including the whole concept idea. would you both be ok with that?

@bravan.3876 then came up with an alteration of @mortrialus.3062 consept C. it was a bit confusing to go through all the beef around that idea so im not sure i got it right. how i understood it:bravan ask how much stat decrease worth a second dodge? a second dodge in current state of mirage (having mc as endurance dodges), means 2 mc instead 1, so more defensive uptime but also more ambushes and with that more dmg. so bravan says reducing not only vita but also offensive stats like power and condi dmg to compensate for the second dodge is needed. so far so good, i cannot see anything wrong with that statement. but ofc giving -300 vita and in addition also -power/condi dmg would be too much of a nerf. it then would need to be something more like -100/150 vita, -50/100 power, -50/100 condi dmg or whatever (numbers are up to anet here). this would be an alteration to mortrialus concept and when mortrialus and others have too much concerns about that, then i will not add it to his concept. even tho i dont see any issue myself here.

the second aspect from bravan was, to lower core dmg (shatters, weaponskills) by a bigger amount of offensive stat decrease (higher decrease then needed to compensate the offensive power of a second dodge) for mirage but this higher stat decrease should be 100% compensated by higher stacks of might and vuln stacks on the mirages ambushes, so that a mirage who uses dodges more offensive to buff core skills like shatter and weaponsskills with ambushes has around core dmg again. do i get that right?

seems like just another way of reworking shatters by lowering their core base dmg and then add mirage specific ambush rewards to rebuff core skills by mirage related gameplay. so it does, what most ideas under concept D are about anyway, it looks like a concept D light version to me (compared with @Curunen.8729 idea for ex). just that this light version is easier to implement and with way less work for anet then a total elite rework changing shatters and ambush activation mechanic totally. or what do i miss here?if i got that right there would be ways to implement it into the document: either as a light idea (low effort variant) to concept D or an alteration of concept A bc it lit includes the idea to rework ambushes on condi weapons more into gs equivalents, so more into dmg boost skills giving might/vuln.

what does the community think?

the moment we could come to a conclusion most ppl have no problem with anymore i will then try to finish the final document for sunday.

[Curunen.8729]

@MidJuly.1839 said:@mortrialus.3062I don't disagree but again you're taking it into a vacuum. A lot of mechanics have changed for other classes too. It's been 8 years and some mechanics that have been there since inception, are just not going to change. Yea Power shatter is predictable AF, but back in the day it was advertised as counterplay. Now you're looking at it as a downside.Yes Cry (f2) scales poorly, but the alternative would require further nerfs to application elsewhere.

The problem for me personally these days is, how unreliable clone AI and by proxy their Shatter pathing is. Not being able to reliably shatter on demand, in that exact moment when you press it, effectively giving your opponent extra time to dodge your carefully timed burst, is just a silly design. Think of how much that augmented, the way you play. That's why I loved Chrono so much, having the super speed on clones made all the difference in the world, for me. But that silly mechanic, opens up some interesting play options and some have really made use of it.

As for the discrepancy between condi Mes damage and other condi classes. Yes they're much lower, but the kit is designed around many small sources of pressure. Think along the line of, the longer you stay offensive the more condi you apply, whereas with other classes it's more focused. It seems like a weird choice at first, but if you consider we are able expected to dodge offensively, it kind of fits with the playstyle. Historically for me, the moment I go defensive, I tend to lose much more than if I go balls deep at 2k HP and scream "Banzai!"

@Mortialus I really appreciate the data. I usually play with estimates and rarely get actual figures. So thank you for that.

@Curunen.8729 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@MidJuly.1839 said:@bravan.3876 @Leonidrex.5649 @mortrialus.3062 @viquing.8254 @"Jazz.4639" and everyone else that got dragged into this:Ok this thread started off with the usual overly positive suggestions and everyone holding hands and singing koombaya, but it's devolved into a sink for all the grudges, held between forum vets. I like to think that us Mesmers have always been the level headed side of the community, except when I get drunk and triggered obv. Can we please agree upon some semblance of constructive criticism, that doesn't result in pointing at each others' shortcomings over the past 5 years?

Bottomline is: Mesmer's current kit has all the damage (be it power or condi) to successfully execute its purpose in a fight (regardless of game mode). But it lacks the supplemental kit support (backbone?), to actually pull it off in live scenarios (Chaos and not the traitline, +1s, etc). So if you look at it in a vacuum, yea the options are there. You just never get to play the kit as expected, because of lackluster complementation.

Does Mesmer need a damage buff? I honestly think we're fine.Do we need a defensive buff? Probably not.Do we need massive QoL overhaul? Absolutely!As it is now, Mesmer has an auto-immune disease and has to fight against, its own mechanics to succeed.

Going to disagree still. I'd actually say power and condi have the opposite problems.... [cut to reduce quote size] ...

Excellent breakdown and analysis. :+1:

Noob Mesmer, BAN, BAN!

To be edited as I'm on a roll. P.S. Ignore the incoherent gibberish, I've had a few.

Haha, oops - totally unintentional, I liked mortrialus' breakdown there, didn't even realise I was quoting a disagreement! xD

Though to see your point - yes there are multiple sources and factors for damage, nevermind practical situations so it's not easy to quantify.

@"Jazz.4639" I don't mind which iteration is gone with - would be happy with any amalgamation so long as the main outcome is clear and distinct playstyle differences between each specialisation.Way I see it - we all present one or more rough templates of perspective, to give a range of starting ideas that Anet can choose between/adapt/come up with better and more refined ideas.

There is no right or wrong here - it's art - just more and more ideas to build up a material kit - hence on a side note rather than everyone arguing and deriding each other, just focus on presenting one or more ideas with supporting reasoning. There's some ideas here I like and some I don't - but I don't even like my own ideas fully and am aware that nobody can possibly have the final "right" solutions - it is a collective effort. Let Anet do the job to make use of this resource along with their own ideas to come up with final solutions.

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

@"Curunen.8729" said:There is no right or wrong here - it's art - just more and more ideas to build up a material kit - hence on a side note rather than everyone arguing and deriding each other, just focus on presenting one or more ideas with supporting reasoning. There's some ideas here I like and some I don't - but I don't even like my own ideas fully and am aware that nobody can possibly have the final "right" solutions - it is a collective effort. Let Anet do the job to make use of this resource along with their own ideas to come up with final solutions.

yeah thats the plan, i just try to avoid that we have any bigger beef about the final document after, so i try to get a solution most ppl can live with before that.same here, some ideas i like more than others but we are not the one deciding anyway and i just try to give a good amount of ideas anet can work with (not too many, not too long document but also not too less).

[MidJuly.1839]

@Curunen.8729 said:

@MidJuly.1839 said:@mortrialus.3062I don't disagree but again you're taking it into a vacuum. A lot of mechanics have changed for other classes too. It's been 8 years and some mechanics that have been there since inception, are just not going to change. Yea Power shatter is predictable AF, but back in the day it was advertised as counterplay. Now you're looking at it as a downside.Yes Cry (f2) scales poorly, but the alternative would require further nerfs to application elsewhere.

The problem for me personally these days is, how unreliable clone AI and by proxy their Shatter pathing is. Not being able to reliably shatter on demand, in that exact moment when you press it, effectively giving your opponent extra time to dodge your carefully timed burst, is just a silly design. Think of how much that augmented, the way you play. That's why I loved Chrono so much, having the super speed on clones made all the difference in the world, for me. But that silly mechanic, opens up some interesting play options and some have really made use of it.

As for the discrepancy between condi Mes damage and other condi classes. Yes they're much lower, but the kit is designed around many small sources of pressure. Think along the line of, the longer you stay offensive the more condi you apply, whereas with other classes it's more focused. It seems like a weird choice at first, but if you consider we are

able

expected to dodge offensively, it kind of fits with the playstyle. Historically for me, the moment I go defensive, I tend to lose much more than if I go balls deep at 2k HP and scream "Banzai!"

@Mortialus I really appreciate the data. I usually play with estimates and rarely get actual figures. So thank you for that.

@Curunen.8729 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@MidJuly.1839 said:@bravan.3876 @Leonidrex.5649 @mortrialus.3062 @viquing.8254 @"Jazz.4639" and everyone else that got dragged into this:Ok this thread started off with the usual overly positive suggestions and everyone holding hands and singing koombaya, but it's devolved into a sink for all the grudges, held between forum vets. I like to think that us Mesmers have always been the level headed side of the community, except when I get drunk and triggered obv. Can we please agree upon some semblance of constructive criticism, that doesn't result in pointing at each others' shortcomings over the past 5 years?

Bottomline is: Mesmer's current kit has all the damage (be it power or condi) to successfully execute its purpose in a fight (regardless of game mode). But it lacks the supplemental kit support (backbone?), to actually pull it off in live scenarios (Chaos and not the traitline, +1s, etc). So if you look at it in a vacuum, yea the options are there. You just never get to play the kit as expected, because of lackluster complementation.

Does Mesmer need a damage buff? I honestly think we're fine.Do we need a defensive buff? Probably not.Do we need massive QoL overhaul? Absolutely!As it is now, Mesmer has an auto-immune disease and has to fight against, its own mechanics to succeed.

Going to disagree still. I'd actually say power and condi have the opposite problems.... [cut to reduce quote size] ...

Excellent breakdown and analysis. :+1:

Noob Mesmer, BAN, BAN!

To be edited as I'm on a roll. P.S. Ignore the incoherent gibberish, I've had a few.

Haha, oops - totally unintentional, I liked mortrialus' breakdown there, didn't even realise I was quoting a disagreement! xD

Though to see your point - yes there are multiple sources and factors for damage, nevermind practical situations so it's not easy to quantify.

Hah, you're fine, I was just hollering at you. And I don't think it was a disagreement, just difference of opinion.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

@bravan.3876 said:Means while power builds can go for Domination/ Duelling/ Illusion and get lot of power dmg out of each of them

And casually being killed by a bug if it happens to land on your shoulders

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Terrorhuz.4695 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Means while power builds can go for Domination/ Duelling/ Illusion and get lot of power dmg out of each of them

And casually being killed by a bug if it happens to land on your shoulders

other classes get this more dmg from their traitlines on top of gaining extra utility, holo for example gives as much as chaos combined with illusions, shrug