[Doc] Mesmer changes suggestions for CmC

[mortrialus.3062]

@MidJuly.1839 said:@mortrialus.3062I don't disagree but again you're taking it into a vacuum. A lot of mechanics have changed for other classes too. It's been 8 years and some mechanics that have been there since inception, are just not going to change. Yea Power shatter is predictable AF, but back in the day it was advertised as counterplay. Now you're looking at it as a downside.Yes Cry (f2) scales poorly, but the alternative would require further nerfs to application elsewhere.

The problem for me personally these days is, how unreliable clone AI and by proxy their Shatter pathing is. Not being able to reliably shatter on demand, in that exact moment when you press it, effectively giving your opponent extra time to dodge your carefully timed burst, is just a silly design. Think of how much that augmented, the way you play. That's why I loved Chrono so much, having the super speed on clones made all the difference in the world, for me. But that silly mechanic, opens up some interesting play options and some have really made use of it.

As for the discrepancy between condi Mes damage and other condi classes. Yes they're much lower, but the kit is designed around many small sources of pressure. Think along the line of, the longer you stay offensive the more condi you apply, whereas with other classes it's more focused. It seems like a weird choice at first, but if you consider we are able expected to dodge offensively, it kind of fits with the playstyle. Historically for me, the moment I go defensive, I tend to lose much more than if I go balls deep at 2k HP and scream "Banzai!"

@Mortialus I really appreciate the data. I usually play with estimates and rarely get actual figures. So thank you for that.

@Curunen.8729 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@MidJuly.1839 said:@bravan.3876 @Leonidrex.5649 @mortrialus.3062 @viquing.8254 @"Jazz.4639" and everyone else that got dragged into this:Ok this thread started off with the usual overly positive suggestions and everyone holding hands and singing koombaya, but it's devolved into a sink for all the grudges, held between forum vets. I like to think that us Mesmers have always been the level headed side of the community, except when I get drunk and triggered obv. Can we please agree upon some semblance of constructive criticism, that doesn't result in pointing at each others' shortcomings over the past 5 years?

Bottomline is: Mesmer's current kit has all the damage (be it power or condi) to successfully execute its purpose in a fight (regardless of game mode). But it lacks the supplemental kit support (backbone?), to actually pull it off in live scenarios (Chaos and not the traitline, +1s, etc). So if you look at it in a vacuum, yea the options are there. You just never get to play the kit as expected, because of lackluster complementation.

Does Mesmer need a damage buff? I honestly think we're fine.Do we need a defensive buff? Probably not.Do we need massive QoL overhaul? Absolutely!As it is now, Mesmer has an auto-immune disease and has to fight against, its own mechanics to succeed.

Going to disagree still. I'd actually say power and condi have the opposite problems.... [cut to reduce quote size] ...

Excellent breakdown and analysis. :+1:

Noob Mesmer, BAN, BAN!

To be edited as I'm on a roll. P.S. Ignore the incoherent gibberish, I've had a few.

I'd actually argue the opposite. Right now condi rev, condi weaver, condi guardian are based on lots of pulses of smaller damage while Condi mesmer is built around really two primary damage sources, Cry of Frustration and whichever Phantasm you're using. The skills between these two bursts are ridiculously miniscule.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@"Jazz.4639" said:hi sry for the delay i needed to reach weekend to make some time for this. i also will just ignore the beef and negativity and focus on the suggestions made, bc anything aside that is not rly helping me to keep my motivation up to put more time into this. in case i overlooked or missunderstood something while trying to go throu all the new posts then just correct me or add your suggestion again.

It's far from the first time people are doing this kind of job, at best they'll take your worst suggestion implement it and say "mesmer is now in a good place", at worst they'll say kitten you or implement the ideas in such a way mesmer will be in an even worse state.

Did you ever saw those movies were the doctor is trying to revive a patient and the other doctors and nurses stop him saying "snap out of it, he's gone!" ? - it's this thread.

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:hi sry for the delay i needed to reach weekend to make some time for this. i also will just ignore the beef and negativity and focus on the suggestions made, bc anything aside that is not rly helping me to keep my motivation up to put more time into this. in case i overlooked or missunderstood something while trying to go throu all the new posts then just correct me or add your suggestion again.

It's far from the first time people are doing this kind of job, at best they'll take your worst suggestion implement it and say "mesmer is now in a good place", at worst they'll say kitten you or implement the ideas in such a way mesmer will be in an even worse state.

Did you ever saw those movies were the doctor is trying to revive a patient and the other doctors and nurses stop him saying "snap out of it, he's gone!" ? - it's this thread.

can you pls link the bug side for me again, so i dont have to research it? that would help. thx :)

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

@"Jazz.4639" said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:hi sry for the delay i needed to reach weekend to make some time for this. i also will just ignore the beef and negativity and focus on the suggestions made, bc anything aside that is not rly helping me to keep my motivation up to put more time into this. in case i overlooked or missunderstood something while trying to go throu all the new posts then just correct me or add your suggestion again.

It's far from the first time people are doing this kind of job, at best they'll take your worst suggestion implement it and say "mesmer is now in a good place", at worst they'll say kitten you or implement the ideas in such a way mesmer will be in an even worse state.

Did you ever saw those movies were the doctor is trying to revive a patient and the other doctors and nurses stop him saying "snap out of it, he's gone!" ? - it's this thread.

can you pls link the bug side for me again, so i dont have to research it? that would help. thx :)

i seriously cant find the bug list thread, can you pls give me a link? and soon would be nice

[viquing.8254]

@"Jazz.4639" said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:hi sry for the delay i needed to reach weekend to make some time for this. i also will just ignore the beef and negativity and focus on the suggestions made, bc anything aside that is not rly helping me to keep my motivation up to put more time into this. in case i overlooked or missunderstood something while trying to go throu all the new posts then just correct me or add your suggestion again.

It's far from the first time people are doing this kind of job, at best they'll take your worst suggestion implement it and say "mesmer is now in a good place", at worst they'll say kitten you or implement the ideas in such a way mesmer will be in an even worse state.

Did you ever saw those movies were the doctor is trying to revive a patient and the other doctors and nurses stop him saying "snap out of it, he's gone!" ? - it's this thread.

can you pls link the bug side for me again, so i dont have to research it? that would help. thx :)

i seriously cant find the bug list thread, can you pls give me a link? and soon would be nice

isn't this ? : https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/103709/mesmer-bug-list-thingy/p1?new=1I thought there was another one but can't find it too.

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

@viquing.8254 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:hi sry for the delay i needed to reach weekend to make some time for this. i also will just ignore the beef and negativity and focus on the suggestions made, bc anything aside that is not rly helping me to keep my motivation up to put more time into this. in case i overlooked or missunderstood something while trying to go throu all the new posts then just correct me or add your suggestion again.

It's far from the first time people are doing this kind of job, at best they'll take your worst suggestion implement it and say "mesmer is now in a good place", at worst they'll say kitten you or implement the ideas in such a way mesmer will be in an even worse state.

Did you ever saw those movies were the doctor is trying to revive a patient and the other doctors and nurses stop him saying "snap out of it, he's gone!" ? - it's this thread.

can you pls link the bug side for me again, so i dont have to research it? that would help. thx :)

i seriously cant find the bug list thread, can you pls give me a link? and soon would be nice

isn't this ? :

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/103709/mesmer-bug-list-thingy/p1?new=1

I thought there was another one but can't find it too.

i will use this one then. big thx <3

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

so here is the final document, i will leave this for any critic and rework suggestions for a short time before i will send it to cmc.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xXABUh7Da-AWiXha8M-SKvaHQjh-_Gx0/view?usp=sharing

[MidJuly.1839]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@MidJuly.1839 said:@mortrialus.3062I don't disagree but again you're taking it into a vacuum. A lot of mechanics have changed for other classes too. It's been 8 years and some mechanics that have been there since inception, are just not going to change. Yea Power shatter is predictable AF, but back in the day it was advertised as counterplay. Now you're looking at it as a downside.Yes Cry (f2) scales poorly, but the alternative would require further nerfs to application elsewhere.

The problem for me personally these days is, how unreliable clone AI and by proxy their Shatter pathing is. Not being able to reliably shatter on demand, in that exact moment when you press it, effectively giving your opponent extra time to dodge your carefully timed burst, is just a silly design. Think of how much that augmented, the way you play. That's why I loved Chrono so much, having the super speed on clones made all the difference in the world, for me. But that silly mechanic, opens up some interesting play options and some have really made use of it.

As for the discrepancy between condi Mes damage and other condi classes. Yes they're much lower, but the kit is designed around many small sources of pressure. Think along the line of, the longer you stay offensive the more condi you apply, whereas with other classes it's more focused. It seems like a weird choice at first, but if you consider we are

able

expected to dodge offensively, it kind of fits with the playstyle. Historically for me, the moment I go defensive, I tend to lose much more than if I go balls deep at 2k HP and scream "Banzai!"

@Mortialus I really appreciate the data. I usually play with estimates and rarely get actual figures. So thank you for that.

@Curunen.8729 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@MidJuly.1839 said:@bravan.3876 @Leonidrex.5649 @mortrialus.3062 @viquing.8254 @"Jazz.4639" and everyone else that got dragged into this:Ok this thread started off with the usual overly positive suggestions and everyone holding hands and singing koombaya, but it's devolved into a sink for all the grudges, held between forum vets. I like to think that us Mesmers have always been the level headed side of the community, except when I get drunk and triggered obv. Can we please agree upon some semblance of constructive criticism, that doesn't result in pointing at each others' shortcomings over the past 5 years?

Bottomline is: Mesmer's current kit has all the damage (be it power or condi) to successfully execute its purpose in a fight (regardless of game mode). But it lacks the supplemental kit support (backbone?), to actually pull it off in live scenarios (Chaos and not the traitline, +1s, etc). So if you look at it in a vacuum, yea the options are there. You just never get to play the kit as expected, because of lackluster complementation.

Does Mesmer need a damage buff? I honestly think we're fine.Do we need a defensive buff? Probably not.Do we need massive QoL overhaul? Absolutely!As it is now, Mesmer has an auto-immune disease and has to fight against, its own mechanics to succeed.

Going to disagree still. I'd actually say power and condi have the opposite problems.... [cut to reduce quote size] ...

Excellent breakdown and analysis. :+1:

Noob Mesmer, BAN, BAN!

To be edited as I'm on a roll. P.S. Ignore the incoherent gibberish, I've had a few.

I'd actually argue the opposite. Right now condi rev, condi weaver, condi guardian are based on lots of pulses of smaller damage while Condi mesmer is built around really two primary damage sources, Cry of Frustration and whichever Phantasm you're using. The skills between these two bursts are ridiculously miniscule.

I agree for PvP, disagree for WvW. Cuz Viper/TB.

I am merely pointing out what the kit is designed for, whether it actually does what it's supposed to, that's a different story.

The problem since PoF release was Mirage was supposed to be the sustain attrition type bruiser for Mesmer, so the expected downgrade should've been limiting shatter burst, be it f1 or f2 condi bomb. But they did neither, so the spec was so front loaded having no burst or sustain damage drawback that it was a universal jack of all trades and God of Creation. But ANet took the easy way out sticking with the old mentality of shatter oriented play over sustained damage play. So they nerfed the weapon kits instead of the shatter kit. And then they nerfed the shatter kit too anyway. :lol:

[viquing.8254]

@"Jazz.4639" said:so here is the final document, i will leave this for any critic and rework suggestions for a short time before i will send it to cmc.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xXABUh7Da-AWiXha8M-SKvaHQjh-_Gx0/view?usp=sharing

Thanks for the time it took to condensate all of this.<3

[Yoci.2481]

@"Jazz.4639" said:so here is the final document, i will leave this for any critic and rework suggestions for a short time before i will send it to cmc.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xXABUh7Da-AWiXha8M-SKvaHQjh-_Gx0/view?usp=sharing

Thank you for your work. I think it looks good, but maybe one thing is missing. Mesmer mobility is bad, especially on core. In WvW outside of duel-like situations mobility is one of the most important skills for a roamer. Mobility is needed to chase down enemies, move around the edges of a zerg battle and for getting out of sticky situations. At this point in time Mesmer is one of the worst (perhaps the worst) profession when it comes to mobility. Even Necromancers can reset a fight against a core Mesmer if they use their teleport skills. At the same time Mass Invisibility is a must have escape tool, but even that fails to do its job more often than not when it's untraited.

[mortrialus.3062]

On TeaPot's stream with CMC they talked about all the classes except Mesmer and they specifically said they weren't going to talk about mesmer at all and the only thing they said about how it's "Mirage is still OP, quite scary".

Sorry @"Jazz.4639" this is a lot of good work but I just think it's clear they aren't interested and aren't listening and that's the lead balance dev's mindset. I think it's pretty clear they don't want mesmer to be meta or particularly good in PvP just on a philosophical perspective. Not necessarily bad or unplayable, but like a minionmancer or turret engie where it's just never going to be really all that good and there's always a better class to play.

[Moradorin.6217]

I still think the best thing to do would have been to tell CMC to kitten off and let him fail.

[viquing.8254]

@"mortrialus.3062" said:On TeaPot's stream with CMC they talked about all the classes except Mesmer and they specifically said they weren't going to talk about mesmer at all and the only thing they said about how it's "Mirage is still OP, quite scary".

Sorry @"Jazz.4639" this is a lot of good work but I just think it's clear they aren't interested and aren't listening and that's the lead balance dev's mindset. I think it's pretty clear they don't want mesmer to be meta or particularly good in PvP just on a philosophical perspective. Not necessarily bad or unplayable, but like a minionmancer or turret engie where it's just never going to be really all that good and there's always a better class to play.

The one from months ago or they did it recently ?

[mortrialus.3062]

@viquing.8254 said:

@"mortrialus.3062" said:On TeaPot's stream with CMC they talked about all the classes except Mesmer and they specifically said they weren't going to talk about mesmer at all and the only thing they said about how it's "Mirage is still OP, quite scary".

Sorry @"Jazz.4639" this is a lot of good work but I just think it's clear they aren't interested and aren't listening and that's the lead balance dev's mindset. I think it's pretty clear they don't want mesmer to be meta or particularly good in PvP just on a philosophical perspective. Not necessarily bad or unplayable, but like a minionmancer or turret engie where it's just never going to be really all that good and there's always a better class to play.

The one from months ago or they did it recently ?

Yesterday.

TeaPot is the one that said Mirage was "Still OP, quite scary" while CMC nodded in agreement.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Moradorin.6217 said:I still think the best thing to do would have been to tell CMC to kitten off and let him fail.

dont worry, they are going to fail with or without our input :D

[Yoci.2481]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:On TeaPot's stream with CMC they talked about all the classes except Mesmer and they specifically said they weren't going to talk about mesmer at all and the only thing they said about how it's "Mirage is still OP, quite scary".

Sorry @"Jazz.4639" this is a lot of good work but I just think it's clear they aren't interested and aren't listening and that's the lead balance dev's mindset. I think it's pretty clear they don't want mesmer to be meta or particularly good in PvP just on a philosophical perspective. Not necessarily bad or unplayable, but like a minionmancer or turret engie where it's just never going to be really all that good and there's always a better class to play.

The one from months ago or they did it recently ?

Yesterday.

TeaPot is the one that said Mirage was "Still OP, quite scary" while CMC nodded in agreement.

What... how... I mean... why....

~ . ~ '

[mortrialus.3062]

@Yoci.2481 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:On TeaPot's stream with CMC they talked about all the classes except Mesmer and they specifically said they weren't going to talk about mesmer at all and the only thing they said about how it's "Mirage is still OP, quite scary".

Sorry @"Jazz.4639" this is a lot of good work but I just think it's clear they aren't interested and aren't listening and that's the lead balance dev's mindset. I think it's pretty clear they don't want mesmer to be meta or particularly good in PvP just on a philosophical perspective. Not necessarily bad or unplayable, but like a minionmancer or turret engie where it's just never going to be really all that good and there's always a better class to play.

The one from months ago or they did it recently ?

Yesterday.

TeaPot is the one that said Mirage was "Still OP, quite scary" while CMC nodded in agreement.

What... how... I mean... why....

~ . ~ '

"Just to piss them off" in TeaPot's words.

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

op compared to current state of other classes is not true otherwsie it would see more play. but i agree that neither power nor condi mirage need big buffs at this point. bring op stuff on other classes down will do most of the job.

but the document isnt even about requesting any buffs. it is more about replacing one nerf (one dodge less) with other nerfs at other places (for example stat decrease) to keep current power lvl around the same. it was pretty clear right from the start that anet wants the current power lvl to exist and that we have to accept that and that asking for buffs over buffs will not make any sense.

all we can and did do is, to find solutions to keep current power lvl in a less mechanic contradicting way than it is with one dodge, while maybe also adding some more interesting gameplay mechanics to condi ih mirage and make it more active, skilled and less frustrating and oppressive to play against and force mirage more into offensive dodges to reach core lvl dmg.

not a single concept actually includes any buffs, just a replacement from one existing nerf (which has bad side effects and also affects playstyles not causing balance issues) with other nerfs not having these negative impacts on the whole spec. all concepts only affect the relation between mirage and core (so that mirage is not only a better core mes with additional ambush dmg and an instant dodge). the overall current power lvl from core or mirage are not touched until now. so all concepts (no matter if i like them personally or not) are for that viable ideas making sense in terms of the goal we had and dont need to be devalued by anyone. so i dunno why misha hated on them so hard but whatever.

as for tyga, leonidrex and crow to the chronoshield topic:i asked for turning it back to hot release state without ground target and with the ability to cast it in the own back. but also here we have to ask us: why did anet change it in the first place? what were their reasons and goals with that change? we can assume that they found it too strong the way it was. so if we want the less clumsy functionality back, we have to give an alternative nerf to compensate for the functional buff. reducing the travel speed was only one possibility and not what anet should do in any case, it was just an example.

[mortrialus.3062]

@"Jazz.4639" said:op compared to current state of other classes is not true otherwsie it would see more play.

CMC explicitly disagrees.

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

i forgot: big thx to viquing, yoci and mortrialus. the positive feedback is appreciated <3

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:op compared to current state of other classes is not true otherwsie it would see more play.

CMC explicitly disagrees.

so we hope he will understand it better after reading the document, even tho mishas reaction made me think of maybe putting it more clear that none of the concepts actually include any buff requests, just in case they are so insanely scared about the idea of buffing mesmer that they miss the point that we didnt even ask for buffs until now -.-

[viquing.8254]

@"Jazz.4639" said:what were their reasons and goals with that change? we can assume that they found it too strong the way it was. so if we want the less clumsy functionality back, we have to give an alternative nerf to compensate for the functional buff. reducing the travel speed was only one possibility and not what anet should do in any case, it was just an example.

PvE reasons

[viquing.8254]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:op compared to current state of other classes is not true otherwsie it would see more play.

CMC explicitly disagrees.

Only good player play rev and only bad players play mesmers, that's why you have the class representation for anet :D

[XenesisII.1540]

TeaPot is the one that said Mirage was "Still OP, quite scary" while CMC nodded in agreement.

lmao I think that answers how far this entire discussion will go. He hard nerfed mirage and left it to be resolved by the pve devs, he has no intention of balancing mirage, or he would have been trying to do so for the past 6 months, hell they even took a pot shot nerf at one of it's skills last patch, the class is already dead in wvw.

As for actual mirage problem, opinions obviously vary on this, from too much defense, too much offense, or the usual I just hate facing clones. If anet sees mirage cloak as the biggest problem with it's offense and defense at the same time, then toned down one or the other, they have the ability to split skills or split numbers so kitten use it, I mean that is cal's job isn't it? to balance pvp? Instead he hard nerfs and wipes his hands of the problem completely and doesn't want to talk about it. So much for trying to balance and provide as much variety in builds huh mr balance dev.

If mirage was so kitten op we would be seeing a flood of them, and we don't, there's better roaming and group classes to use.But hey submit the next round of nerfs, can't wait for them to overhaul/nerf 3 entire specs to bring back a dodge to one spec.

[mortrialus.3062]

@viquing.8254 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:op compared to current state of other classes is not true otherwsie it would see more play.

CMC explicitly disagrees.

Only good player play rev and only bad players play mesmers, that's why you have the class representation for anet :D

"Grenades holo is the type of innovation we like to see from players."