[Doc] Mesmer changes suggestions for CmC

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

@viquing.8254 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:what were their reasons and goals with that change? we can assume that they found it too strong the way it was. so if we want the less clumsy functionality back, we have to give an alternative nerf to compensate for the functional buff. reducing the travel speed was only one possibility and not what anet should do in any case, it was just an example.

PvE reasons

rly? cant even imagine any pve reason... did mobs (npcs) complain about getting hit by chrono shield while chasing a player in raids? oO

[viquing.8254]

@"Jazz.4639" said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:what were their reasons and goals with that change? we can assume that they found it too strong the way it was. so if we want the less clumsy functionality back, we have to give an alternative nerf to compensate for the functional buff. reducing the travel speed was only one possibility and not what anet should do in any case, it was just an example.

PvE reasons

rly? cant even imagine any pve reason... did mobs (npcs) complain about getting hit by chrono shield while chasing a player in raids? oO

It's easier to hit friends packed with the current wall than with old target follow.That's why IMO the ground change is a pve change.The no casting back was a nerf during chronotank phantasm hype if I remember well.Like most of our nerf who were because of particular setup who don't exist anymore.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:hi sry for the delay i needed to reach weekend to make some time for this. i also will just ignore the beef and negativity and focus on the suggestions made, bc anything aside that is not rly helping me to keep my motivation up to put more time into this. in case i overlooked or missunderstood something while trying to go throu all the new posts then just correct me or add your suggestion again.

It's far from the first time people are doing this kind of job, at best they'll take your worst suggestion implement it and say "mesmer is now in a good place", at worst they'll say kitten you or implement the ideas in such a way mesmer will be in an even worse state.

Did you ever saw those movies were the doctor is trying to revive a patient and the other doctors and nurses stop him saying "snap out of it, he's gone!" ? - it's this thread.

This so much. I think it's cute that people think this will be anything but a "Let's nerf this more" list.

@"XenesisII.1540" said:

TeaPot is the one that said Mirage was "Still OP, quite scary" while CMC nodded in agreement.

lmao I think that answers how far this entire discussion will go. He hard nerfed mirage and left it to be resolved by the pve devs, he has no intention of balancing mirage, or he would have been trying to do so for the past 6 months, hell they even took a pot shot nerf at one of it's skills last patch, the class is already dead in wvw.

As for actual mirage problem, opinions obviously vary on this, from too much defense, too much offense, or the usual I just hate facing clones. If anet sees mirage cloak as the biggest problem with it's offense and defense at the same time, then toned down one or the other, they have the ability to split skills or split numbers so kitten use it, I mean that is cal's job isn't it? to balance pvp? Instead he hard nerfs and wipes his hands of the problem completely and doesn't want to talk about it. So much for trying to balance and provide as much variety in builds huh mr balance dev.

If mirage was so kitten op we would be seeing a flood of them, and we don't, there's better roaming and group classes to use.But hey submit the next round of nerfs, can't wait for them to overhaul/nerf 3 entire specs to bring back a dodge to one spec.

Pretty sure CMC is one of those warriors that did nothing but complain about Thieves and Mesmers they could not catch to gank in WvW.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:hi sry for the delay i needed to reach weekend to make some time for this. i also will just ignore the beef and negativity and focus on the suggestions made, bc anything aside that is not rly helping me to keep my motivation up to put more time into this. in case i overlooked or missunderstood something while trying to go throu all the new posts then just correct me or add your suggestion again.

It's far from the first time people are doing this kind of job, at best they'll take your worst suggestion implement it and say "mesmer is now in a good place", at worst they'll say kitten you or implement the ideas in such a way mesmer will be in an even worse state.

Did you ever saw those movies were the doctor is trying to revive a patient and the other doctors and nurses stop him saying "snap out of it, he's gone!" ? - it's this thread.

This so much. I think it's cute that people think this will be anything but a "Let's nerf this more" list.

@"XenesisII.1540" said:

TeaPot is the one that said Mirage was "Still OP, quite scary" while CMC nodded in agreement.

lmao I think that answers how far this entire discussion will go. He hard nerfed mirage and left it to be resolved by the pve devs, he has no intention of balancing mirage, or he would have been trying to do so for the past 6 months, hell they even took a pot shot nerf at one of it's skills last patch, the class is already dead in wvw.

As for actual mirage problem, opinions obviously vary on this, from too much defense, too much offense, or the usual I just hate facing clones. If anet sees mirage cloak as the biggest problem with it's offense and defense at the same time, then toned down one or the other, they have the ability to split skills or split numbers so kitten use it, I mean that is cal's job isn't it? to balance pvp? Instead he hard nerfs and wipes his hands of the problem completely and doesn't want to talk about it. So much for trying to balance and provide as much variety in builds huh mr balance dev.

If mirage was so kitten op we would be seeing a flood of them, and we don't, there's better roaming and group classes to use.But hey submit the next round of nerfs, can't wait for them to overhaul/nerf 3 entire specs to bring back a dodge to one spec.

Pretty sure CMC is one of those warriors that did nothing but complain about Thieves and Mesmers they could not catch to gank in WvW.

D+D Cele Ele in core, actually.

[Curunen.8729]

@"Jazz.4639" said:so here is the final document, i will leave this for any critic and rework suggestions for a short time before i will send it to cmc.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xXABUh7Da-AWiXha8M-SKvaHQjh-_Gx0/view?usp=sharing

Regardless of the outcome, that's a hell of a lot of work - good effort.

As with others I'm not having any expectations - the track record doesn't inspire much confidence. But who knows.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Curunen.8729 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:so here is the final document, i will leave this for any critic and rework suggestions for a short time before i will send it to cmc.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xXABUh7Da-AWiXha8M-SKvaHQjh-_Gx0/view?usp=sharing

Regardless of the outcome, that's a hell of a lot of work - good effort.

As with others I'm not having any expectations - the track record doesn't inspire much confidence. But who knows.

expect the worst and you will never be disappointed

[Taril.8619]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:so here is the final document, i will leave this for any critic and rework suggestions for a short time before i will send it to cmc.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xXABUh7Da-AWiXha8M-SKvaHQjh-_Gx0/view?usp=sharing

Regardless of the outcome, that's a hell of a lot of work - good effort.

As with others I'm not having any expectations - the track record doesn't inspire much confidence. But who knows.

expect the worst and you will never be disappointed

Until someone finds a way to perform below what you believed to be the worst possible...

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

@Curunen.8729 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:so here is the final document, i will leave this for any critic and rework suggestions for a short time before i will send it to cmc.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xXABUh7Da-AWiXha8M-SKvaHQjh-_Gx0/view?usp=sharing

Regardless of the outcome, that's a hell of a lot of work - good effort.

As with others I'm not having any expectations - the track record doesn't inspire much confidence. But who knows.

Big thx <3

[MidJuly.1839]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:so here is the final document, i will leave this for any critic and rework suggestions for a short time before i will send it to cmc.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xXABUh7Da-AWiXha8M-SKvaHQjh-_Gx0/view?usp=sharing

Regardless of the outcome, that's a hell of a lot of work - good effort.

As with others I'm not having any expectations - the track record doesn't inspire much confidence. But who knows.

expect the worst and you will never be disappointed

Isn't that the Mesmer slogan since 2012?

@Taril.8619 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:so here is the final document, i will leave this for any critic and rework suggestions for a short time before i will send it to cmc.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xXABUh7Da-AWiXha8M-SKvaHQjh-_Gx0/view?usp=sharing

Regardless of the outcome, that's a hell of a lot of work - good effort.

As with others I'm not having any expectations - the track record doesn't inspire much confidence. But who knows.

expect the worst and you will never be disappointed

Until someone finds a way to perform below what you believed to be the worst possible...

Failure of imagination, never underestimate the power or stupidity.

[ZDragon.3046]

The only thing i can say is like some one else said for Mirage at leastSplit ambushes away from the dodge mechanicMake shatters the new ambush attacks which prevents them from being spammed without at least some trait/utility investment.Something new will have to become of mirage cloake but it no longer would act as the standard dodge or ambush trigger.Then you can give them their 2nd dodge back but it returns to the normal roll dodge insteadThere can never be a moment where dodging during cc or while under a cc effect is acceptable even more so on spec thats ideally suppose to be hard to catch But when caught it shouldnt be able to just dodge out of any situation or follow up situation if the cc effect is still applied.

If you asked me chorno should have been more focused on phantoms perhaps giving phantoms the power to continue to perform their attacks more than one time without the need of choronophantasma and even be shattered after at least performing their attacks once or something. I cant say what most people like or how they like to play their mesmers so i wont go that deep into it. I just miss the old sword phantom that could poke my targets several times on a single use.

As far as condition goes that shouldnt be as bursty as it is or was in the past when it was even higher than it is now. Burst condition is unhealth for this game in pvp its fine in pve where you kind of expect it but considering condition builds often allow for more sustain with an option for more defense stat wise they shouldnt be as bursty or more bursty as power options. Thats something to keep in mind.

Some of the ideas ive read here are busted tho. Considering anets current record of balance if many of the ideas ive read went live they would be nerfed in a week/months time from being over used just like many of the current skills are getting nerfed now. Some times its better to not suggest changes to things that are not meta or in high use because their reworks are some times worse than what they currently are. The flip side to these things also is that some of the changes would require both a pve and pvp change it wouldnt be just boostin damage which would make the skills arguably worse in pve but better for the sake of pvp....

[Leonidrex.5649]

@ZDragon.3046 said:The only thing i can say is like some one else said for Mirage at leastSplit ambushes away from the dodge mechanicMake shatters the new ambush attacks which prevents them from being spammed without at least some trait/utility investment.Something new will have to become of mirage cloake but it no longer would act as the standard dodge or ambush trigger.Then you can give them their 2nd dodge back but it returns to the normal roll dodge insteadThere can never be a moment where dodging during cc or while under a cc effect is acceptable even more so on spec thats ideally suppose to be hard to catch But when caught it shouldnt be able to just dodge out of any situation or follow up situation if the cc effect is still applied.

If you asked me chorno should have been more focused on phantoms perhaps giving phantoms the power to continue to perform their attacks more than one time without the need of choronophantasma and even be shattered after at least performing their attacks once or something. I cant say what most people like or how they like to play their mesmers so i wont go that deep into it. I just miss the old sword phantom that could poke my targets several times on a single use.

As far as condition goes that shouldnt be as bursty as it is or was in the past when it was even higher than it is now. Burst condition is unhealth for this game in pvp its fine in pve where you kind of expect it but considering condition builds often allow for more sustain with an option for more defense stat wise they shouldnt be as bursty or more bursty as power options. Thats something to keep in mind.

Some of the ideas ive read here are busted tho. Considering anets current record of balance if many of the ideas ive read went live they would be nerfed in a week/months time from being over used just like many of the current skills are getting nerfed now. Some times its better to not suggest changes to things that are not meta or in high use because their reworks are some times worse than what they currently are. The flip side to these things also is that some of the changes would require both a pve and pvp change it wouldnt be just boostin damage which would make the skills arguably worse in pve but better for the sake of pvp....

I honestly see no difference between mirage dodging during CC. or ranger running 2-3 stun removing tools that are so low on cd that they might as well not have any.this dodge during cc thing, keep in mind that mesmer has 1-2 stun breakes, no access to stability and honestly blink is used for mobility anyways.End result will be the same as any other class. CC doesnt stick in 1v1. EVER.If you remove dodging during cc people will just run 2 or 3 ways to remove them and in the end shit will be the same.In fact from personal exp CC impacts mirage more then almost any meta spec. I have NEVER NOT ONCE had any real value from landing CC on ranger. unless you 1v3 them, cc lasts 0,25s-0,5s and its removed.

EDITand if you replace shatters with ambushes they better be REALLY fucking broken.Cuz you are not only removing dodge during CC, ambushes from dodges but also every shatter skill.

[dandamanno.4136]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"ZDragon.3046" said:The only thing i can say is like some one else said for Mirage at leastSplit ambushes away from the dodge mechanicMake shatters the new ambush attacks which prevents them from being spammed without at least some trait/utility investment.Something new will have to become of mirage cloake but it no longer would act as the standard dodge or ambush trigger.Then you can give them their 2nd dodge back but it returns to the normal roll dodge insteadThere can never be a moment where dodging during cc or while under a cc effect is acceptable even more so on spec thats ideally suppose to be hard to catch But when caught it shouldnt be able to just dodge out of any situation or follow up situation if the cc effect is still applied.

If you asked me chorno should have been more focused on phantoms perhaps giving phantoms the power to continue to perform their attacks more than one time without the need of choronophantasma and even be shattered after at least performing their attacks once or something. I cant say what most people like or how they like to play their mesmers so i wont go that deep into it. I just miss the old sword phantom that could poke my targets several times on a single use.

As far as condition goes that shouldnt be as bursty as it is or was in the past when it was even higher than it is now. Burst condition is unhealth for this game in pvp its fine in pve where you kind of expect it but considering condition builds often allow for more sustain with an option for more defense stat wise they shouldnt be as bursty or more bursty as power options. Thats something to keep in mind.

Some of the ideas ive read here are busted tho. Considering anets current record of balance if many of the ideas ive read went live they would be nerfed in a week/months time from being over used just like many of the current skills are getting nerfed now. Some times its better to not suggest changes to things that are not meta or in high use because their reworks are some times worse than what they currently are. The flip side to these things also is that some of the changes would require both a pve and pvp change it wouldnt be just boostin damage which would make the skills arguably worse in pve but better for the sake of pvp....

I honestly see no difference between mirage dodging during CC. or ranger running 2-3 stun removing tools that are so low on cd that they might as well not have any.this dodge during cc thing, keep in mind that mesmer has 1-2 stun breakes, no access to stability and honestly blink is used for mobility anyways.End result will be the same as any other class. CC doesnt stick in 1v1. EVER.If you remove dodging during cc people will just run 2 or 3 ways to remove them and in the end kitten will be the same.In fact from personal exp CC impacts mirage more then almost any meta spec. I have NEVER NOT ONCE had any real value from landing CC on ranger. unless you 1v3 them, cc lasts 0,25s-0,5s and its removed.

EDITand if you replace shatters with ambushes they better be REALLY kitten broken.Cuz you are not only removing dodge during CC, ambushes from dodges but also every shatter skill.

I figured that for Mirage the difference would be that shatters would, in addition to their usual effects, activate MC for you and your clones (IH being baseline), clones would not execute an ambush but rather you would execute it (would need to be buffed to a point where it was better than an autoattack) and clones would go provide the shatter as well as additional effects to that shatter based on what weapon the clones are based on; extra torment for Axe clone, random boon/condition for Staff (thematically correct even though I hate random things), confusion for Scepter, Vuln/Might for GS, Precision/Bleed for Sword, etc....

Something like that. I think this works out to around 12 MC per minute if you use all your shatters on CD, ignoring clones. Right now with perma vigor you can get around 12 MC per minute with dodging. So not much difference there. But now you have in addition to that an extra 8 (or 12 if you have vigor) dodges per minute in addition to 12 MC per minute. Is that "really kitten broken" enough for yah, lol?

I think this is where MC time per clone shattered would come into play. 1/4s per clone shattered for starters.

I'm not sure, I can't really be bothered to think this through right now, especially since the document is all complete. But I think it would have been a highly tunable, Mirage style shatter gameplay that divorces MC from dodging.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@dandamanno.4136 then it ends up being core but shatters do extra X effect and we are back in square one.and no, mirage doesnt gain MC 12 times within a minute.5-6 maybe, 8 is like top you could get, by spamming it off cooldown which is not proper gameplay to begin with.

[dandamanno.4136]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@dandamanno.4136 then it ends up being core but shatters do extra X effect and we are back in square one.

Yah, which is basically what elite specs are for the most part.

and no, mirage doesnt gain MC 12 times within a minute.5-6 maybe, 8 is like top you could get, by spamming it off cooldown which is not proper gameplay to begin with.

Hmm, just timed it and you can get 8 in about 1:02 for the first minute, 7 after that since you don't have 2 right off the hop.

Vigor will net you an extra 3 or 4. My point was to compare extremes of both scenarios to show best case VS best case. It actually doesn't matter 12,10,8 or whatever, more just that they were the same numbers.

Anyway I don't really care about the idea so much anymore since I too have become convinced we are just spitting into the wind at this point.

[MidJuly.1839]

@"Jazz.4639"

I apologize for barging in unannounced, and Hi-jacking the thread for a sec, without actually commenting on the subject. I wanted to give myself time to read the document and really understand the ideas being suggested.

First and foremost, you need to spell proof and grammar check this, there's a wide variety of changes, that can be made to make the overall message more cohesive.Now for the big point:It's much easier to implement Concept D as opposed to Concept A. If you're a game developer with X amount of time and workforce to dedicate to every single project and still have a playable product, factors like that really start to matter. See where I'm going?Also I firmly believe the Shatterplay should've been a no-no for Mirage, to allow it into a more sustain damage role.I didn't see the Concept listed but, realistically you can introduce a endurance gain mechanic to Mirage specific skills, kinda like staff trait for DrD or the corresponding school stuff (I haven't played thief in a while). So with 1 dodge you have the option to quickly recover for a second one via mechanic.

Everyone's favorite Arlette.P.S. Gonna Edit as I go, you know it!

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

@MidJuly.1839 said:@"Jazz.4639"

I apologize for barging in unannounced, and Hi-jacking the thread for a sec, without actually commenting on the subject. I wanted to give myself time to read the document and really understand the ideas being suggested.

First and foremost, you need to spell proof and grammar check this, there's a wide variety of changes, that can be made to make the overall message more cohesive.Now for the big point:It's much easier to implement Concept D as opposed to Concept A. If you're a game developer with X amount of time and workforce to dedicate to every single project and still have a playable product, factors like that really start to matter. See where I'm going?Also I firmly believe the Shatterplay should've been a no-no for Mirage, to allow it into a more sustain damage role.I didn't see the Concept listed but, realistically you can introduce a endurance gain mechanic to Mirage specific skills, kinda like staff trait for DrD or the corresponding school stuff (I haven't played thief in a while). So with 1 dodge you have the option to quickly recover for a second one via mechanic.

Everyone's favorite Arlette.P.S. Gonna Edit as I go, you know it!

damn you are a bit too late. i already send it to cmc. i would been happy when a native speaker would read it and gave me the ways to turn it into a better english.:disappointed:

im not sure what you mean with concept D is opposed to concept A? all concepts are more or less different ways to reach the same goal: replace the one dodge nerf with other nerfs without increasing the overall power lvl of mirage (just deleting the negative and unintended side effects from the one dodge nerf) while also bring mirage more in line to core by taking away some core power (either by stat decrease from concept C, by reducing clone cap in concept D, or by creating higher decision costs in dodge management with ambush rework in concept A). Some even can be combined like A and C or B and C to give mirage specific ambush gameplay more value to rebuff core skills (shatters and weaponsskills) near to core lvl in terms of dmg.

the problem with endurance reggen gain increase into a one dodge bar is, that you make it more spammy, higher pressure to dodge on cd, what will dumb it down more and more. just as adding dmg to ambushes to compensate the lower offensive power from ambushes with only one dodge, while keeping the the current ambush design on condi weapons the same, will also not solve the problem but will maybe increase the problem even over the previous lvl with 2 dodges.

the main problem with the one dodge change is, that it limits ambush gameplay, limits offensive dodges to time ambushes well for their own purpose. and that contradiction for the mirage mechanic cannot be solved or covered by simple number changes or simple addition of endurance reggen or dmg to the one dodge mirage. it will make stuff just worse. the one dodge nerf is lit a one-way road into a dumb down spiral.

btw @all cmc answered that he needs at least until the weekend to find the time to read it and then give some feedback to the document, bc it is a lot to deal with. ofc he also mentioned that functional changes need to go through the skill team so he cannot decide by his own (i told him we know this ;) ). but he already appreciate the time and effort we as community put into this.

[Strider.7849]

Something I'd like to add is the signet of midnight vs decoy. Both utilities break stun, are instant cast, and grant stealth.

Midnight: gives unblockable blind and a passive 180 expertise. 2 sec stealth base, 3 with Prismatic understanding. Also interacts with other traits. 35 second CD.

Decoy: gives 1 clone. 3 seconds base stealth, 4.5 with PU. 45 sec CD.

I feel these two utilities are too similar and that decoys CD should be adjusted or the skill reworked somehow. It's just strange that midnight which gives significantly more has a 10 second CD shorter. If 1 second of stealth and a single clone with no trait interactions is worth such a long cooldown, it's confusing why a blind on cry of frustrations shatter takes up a mid tier trait choice.

Lastly, I think blinding dissipation and ineptitude should be merged within the Grandmaster tier of dueling and a new option of mid tier choice be opened up.

Edit:

Greatsword #3: mindstab is kind of weird after the changes and is just a filler, having it remove a boon (and controllable) I prefer to the iZerkers, but others opinions may vary - just saying this as an old school launch player.

2 clone creation on staff phantasmal mage was great, it helped builds that didn't output as many clones, such as chronomancer - would like to see that returned.. but I should mention I'm not sure why it was removed before.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@MidJuly.1839 said:@"Jazz.4639"

I apologize for barging in unannounced, and Hi-jacking the thread for a sec, without actually commenting on the subject. I wanted to give myself time to read the document and really understand the ideas being suggested.

First and foremost, you need to spell proof and grammar check this, there's a wide variety of changes, that can be made to make the overall message more cohesive.Now for the big point:It's much easier to implement Concept D as opposed to Concept A. If you're a game developer with X amount of time and workforce to dedicate to every single project and still have a playable product, factors like that really start to matter. See where I'm going?Also I firmly believe the Shatterplay should've been a no-no for Mirage, to allow it into a more sustain damage role.I didn't see the Concept listed but, realistically you can introduce a endurance gain mechanic to Mirage specific skills, kinda like staff trait for DrD or the corresponding school stuff (I haven't played thief in a while). So with 1 dodge you have the option to quickly recover for a second one via mechanic.

Everyone's favorite Arlette.P.S. Gonna Edit as I go, you know it!

with 1 dodge mirage will always be lacking dodges.Simply by the fact that you dont just dodge when you have full endurance bar, and endurance gained at full gets wasted. thats why having 2 bars is important, you will ALWAYS gain the endurance that way. I spend propably half the fights at full endurance meaning that amount of endurance wasted is staggering.

[MidJuly.1839]

@"Jazz.4639" said:

@MidJuly.1839 said:@"Jazz.4639"

I apologize for barging in unannounced, and Hi-jacking the thread for a sec, without actually commenting on the subject. I wanted to give myself time to read the document and really understand the ideas being suggested.

First and foremost, you need to spell proof and grammar check this, there's a wide variety of changes, that can be made to make the overall message more cohesive.Now for the big point:It's much easier to implement Concept D as opposed to Concept A. If you're a game developer with X amount of time and workforce to dedicate to every single project and still have a playable product, factors like that really start to matter. See where I'm going?Also I firmly believe the Shatterplay should've been a no-no for Mirage, to allow it into a more sustain damage role.I didn't see the Concept listed but, realistically you can introduce a endurance gain mechanic to Mirage specific skills, kinda like staff trait for DrD or the corresponding school stuff (I haven't played thief in a while). So with 1 dodge you have the option to quickly recover for a second one via mechanic.

Everyone's favorite Arlette.

P.S. Gonna Edit as I go, you know it!

kitten you are a bit too late. i already send it to cmc. i would been happy when a native speaker would read it and gave me the ways to turn it into a better english.:disappointed:

im not sure what you mean with concept D is opposed to concept A? all concepts are more or less different ways to reach the same goal: replace the one dodge nerf with other nerfs without increasing the overall power lvl of mirage (just deleting the negative and unintended side effects from the one dodge nerf) while also bring mirage more in line to core by taking away some core power (either by stat decrease from concept C, by reducing clone cap in concept D, or by creating higher decision costs in dodge management with ambush rework in concept A). Some even can be combined like A and C or B and C to give mirage specific ambush gameplay more value to rebuff core skills (shatters and weaponsskills) near to core lvl in terms of dmg.

the problem with endurance reggen gain increase into a one dodge bar is, that you make it more spammy, higher pressure to dodge on cd, what will dumb it down more and more. just as adding dmg to ambushes to compensate the lower offensive power from ambushes with only one dodge, while keeping the the current ambush design on condi weapons the same, will also not solve the problem but will maybe increase the problem even over the previous lvl with 2 dodges.

the main problem with the one dodge change is, that it limits ambush gameplay, limits offensive dodges to time ambushes well for their own purpose. and that contradiction for the mirage mechanic cannot be solved or covered by simple number changes or simple addition of endurance reggen or dmg to the one dodge mirage. it will make stuff just worse. the one dodge nerf is lit a one-way road into a dumb down spiral.

btw @all cmc answered that he needs at least until the weekend to find the time to read it and then give some feedback to the document, bc it is a lot to deal with. ofc he also mentioned that functional changes need to go through the skill team so he cannot decide by his own (i told him we know this ;) ). but he already appreciate the time and effort we as community put into this.

Ok I see the point against endurance gain mechanic over 2nd Endurance bar. I agree. Still Concept D is much easier to implement from a developer standpoint than, really either of the other ones. I'm not saying it's the one that should be picked, just that it's easier for ANET. And you know how they feel about easy.

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

@MidJuly.1839 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:

@MidJuly.1839 said:@"Jazz.4639"

I apologize for barging in unannounced, and Hi-jacking the thread for a sec, without actually commenting on the subject. I wanted to give myself time to read the document and really understand the ideas being suggested.

First and foremost, you need to spell proof and grammar check this, there's a wide variety of changes, that can be made to make the overall message more cohesive.Now for the big point:It's much easier to implement Concept D as opposed to Concept A. If you're a game developer with X amount of time and workforce to dedicate to every single project and still have a playable product, factors like that really start to matter. See where I'm going?Also I firmly believe the Shatterplay should've been a no-no for Mirage, to allow it into a more sustain damage role.I didn't see the Concept listed but, realistically you can introduce a endurance gain mechanic to Mirage specific skills, kinda like staff trait for DrD or the corresponding school stuff (I haven't played thief in a while). So with 1 dodge you have the option to quickly recover for a second one via mechanic.

Everyone's favorite Arlette.

P.S. Gonna Edit as I go, you know it!

kitten you are a bit too late. i already send it to cmc. i would been happy when a native speaker would read it and gave me the ways to turn it into a better english.:disappointed:

im not sure what you mean with concept D is opposed to concept A? all concepts are more or less different ways to reach the same goal: replace the one dodge nerf with other nerfs without increasing the overall power lvl of mirage (just deleting the negative and unintended side effects from the one dodge nerf) while also bring mirage more in line to core by taking away some core power (either by stat decrease from concept C, by reducing clone cap in concept D, or by creating higher decision costs in dodge management with ambush rework in concept A). Some even can be combined like A and C or B and C to give mirage specific ambush gameplay more value to rebuff core skills (shatters and weaponsskills) near to core lvl in terms of dmg.

the problem with endurance reggen gain increase into a one dodge bar is, that you make it more spammy, higher pressure to dodge on cd, what will dumb it down more and more. just as adding dmg to ambushes to compensate the lower offensive power from ambushes with only one dodge, while keeping the the current ambush design on condi weapons the same, will also not solve the problem but will maybe increase the problem even over the previous lvl with 2 dodges.

the main problem with the one dodge change is, that it limits ambush gameplay, limits offensive dodges to time ambushes well for their own purpose. and that contradiction for the mirage mechanic cannot be solved or covered by simple number changes or simple addition of endurance reggen or dmg to the one dodge mirage. it will make stuff just worse. the one dodge nerf is lit a one-way road into a dumb down spiral.

btw @all cmc answered that he needs at least until the weekend to find the time to read it and then give some feedback to the document, bc it is a lot to deal with. ofc he also mentioned that functional changes need to go through the skill team so he cannot decide by his own (i told him we know this ;) ). but he already appreciate the time and effort we as community put into this.

Ok I see the point against endurance gain mechanic over 2nd Endurance bar. I agree. Still Concept D is much easier to implement from a developer standpoint than, really either of the other ones. I'm not saying it's the one that should be picked, just that it's easier for ANET. And you know how they feel about easy.

haha true, just as concept C tho. both are very similar to each other, they do more or less exactly the same just in different ways (more similar than to any other concept i mean)

[mortrialus.3062]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@MidJuly.1839 said:@"Jazz.4639"

I apologize for barging in unannounced, and Hi-jacking the thread for a sec, without actually commenting on the subject. I wanted to give myself time to read the document and really understand the ideas being suggested.

First and foremost, you need to spell proof and grammar check this, there's a wide variety of changes, that can be made to make the overall message more cohesive.Now for the big point:It's much easier to implement Concept D as opposed to Concept A. If you're a game developer with X amount of time and workforce to dedicate to every single project and still have a playable product, factors like that really start to matter. See where I'm going?Also I firmly believe the Shatterplay should've been a no-no for Mirage, to allow it into a more sustain damage role.I didn't see the Concept listed but, realistically you can introduce a endurance gain mechanic to Mirage specific skills, kinda like staff trait for DrD or the corresponding school stuff (I haven't played thief in a while). So with 1 dodge you have the option to quickly recover for a second one via mechanic.

Everyone's favorite Arlette.

P.S. Gonna Edit as I go, you know it!

with 1 dodge mirage will always be lacking dodges.Simply by the fact that you dont just dodge when you have full endurance bar, and endurance gained at full gets wasted. thats why having 2 bars is important, you will ALWAYS gain the endurance that way. I spend propably half the fights at full endurance meaning that amount of endurance wasted is staggering.

Yep I made a long ass post about this when the change was first announced.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1150133/#Comment_1150133

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

@"Shiyo.3578" said:If you want to buff mesmer in any capacity you absolutely NEED to delete 1 shot perma stealth mesmer. I just got out of a game where the mesmer was perma stealthed and INSTANTLY killing me on thief with 20645 HP from stealth. This was in a platinum level game, not low tier clown fiestas. There was no avoiding it - no dodging, no predicting it, the dude would burst you from stealth and you were INSTANTLY dead the second he hit you unless you were lucky and randomly dodging someone else. This is 20645 HP and 2029 armor - pretty absurd if you ask me.

Imo, please make chrono an actual "support" and completely revamp wells to follow you around like facets with actives or something. Chrono could be really cool and fun but in it's current form it's either a bunker sitting with wells or just...useless.

Mesmer in general should have its damage output reduced for all the utility and mobility it has.

[mortrialus.3062]

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:If you want to buff mesmer in any capacity you absolutely NEED to delete 1 shot perma stealth mesmer. I just got out of a game where the mesmer was perma stealthed and INSTANTLY killing me on thief with 20645 HP from stealth. This was in a platinum level game, not low tier clown fiestas. There was no avoiding it - no dodging, no predicting it, the dude would burst you from stealth and you were INSTANTLY dead the second he hit you unless you were lucky and randomly dodging someone else. This is 20645 HP and 2029 armor - pretty absurd if you ask me.

Imo, please make chrono an actual "support" and completely revamp wells to follow you around like facets with actives or something. Chrono could be really cool and fun but in it's current form it's either a bunker sitting with wells or just...useless.

Mesmer in general should have its damage output reduced for all the utility and mobility it has.

Mesmer damage output is already pretty meh. Look at how much damage something like Condi Thief does compared to Condi Mirage.

Untraited Cry of Frustration with 1 clone is 2 stacks of confusion. With Illusions Cry of Frustration with 1 clone with do 4 stacks of confusion. With Illusions and Ineptitude Cry of Frustration will apply 8 stacks of confusion. And even with any of those you will be hard pressed no matter how much the person wildly spams into confusion to actually get 8k damage out of it. Now if you have 3 clones and 16 stacks of confusion now you're looking at serious damage numbers, but again we're talking about Confusion that has so much counterplay even after it lands, only lasts 3 seconds, requires 3x more set up than Mind Wrack, and has twice the cooldown.

And generally condition mesmer's primary damage skills just mathematically don't compare to other class's damage skills;

Berserker's Corona Burst: 5-6k 7k high heat, 6 second cooldownBerserker's Refraction Cutter high heat: 4.8k -7.5k damage depending on how many projectiles hit and how many they crit. 0.5 second wind up, 9 second cooldownBerserker's Death Strike: 4-6k 18 second cooldown 0.75 second wind up.Sage's Searing Fissure: Potentially 6k on a 6 second cooldown.Marauder's Soul Spiral: 6-8k damage 25 second cooldown traited, 1.5 seconds from start to finish traited.Berserker's Rapid Fire: 6k damage, 8 second cooldown, 2.5 seconds from start to finish.Berserker's Maul: 3.5-4k damage, 8s (6.5 traited) second cooldown, 0.75 from start to finish.Berserker's Barrage: 10k damage, 20 cooldown, 10 seconds from start to finish.Berserker's Backstab: 3.5k-4.5k damage.

Wizard Pistol Phantasm: 4,500, 6 seconds from start to finish, 20 second cooldown.Wizard Torch Phantasm: 6,000 (7,000 traited), 12 seconds from start to finish, 30 second cooldown 24 traited.Wizard's Staff Phantasm: 510 damage, 18 second cooldown, 7 seconds from start to finish.

And these are the hardest hitting skills for condition mesmer. It's only downhill from there. You aren't killing anyone with the 700 damage total in torment from Axe 2 (Seriously this skill should be like 3k in torment due to the cast time)and our auto attacks to fill in the gaps are literally the worst. The damage on phantasms isn't "bad" but they aren't great compared to other class's primary damage cooldowns due to the higher cooldowns. Also the staff phantasm is just the absolute biggest joke in the world.

Edit: I should check condi thief's repeater.

Condi thief's pistol auto is 800 dps so it's as strong as mirage axe's auto with 900 range.

Shadow Strike into 2 Repeaters which you can do is 12,070 damage on what is practically an 8 second cooldown with 8 initiative. Comboing that with Steal and Spider Venom is 21,200 damage. That's without any confusion damage. It's an additional 2,200 per skill use under confusion with Bewildering Ambush. If you have Illusions and can't afford Ineptitude that's still a 2 clone+mesmer Cry of Frustration. It's kitten nuts how much more damage this build is doing than any variant of condition mesmer. Imagine if Axe 2 did freaking 12k condi damage lol.

[viquing.8254]

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:If you want to buff mesmer in any capacity you absolutely NEED to delete 1 shot perma stealth mesmer. I just got out of a game where the mesmer was perma stealthed and INSTANTLY killing me on thief with 20645 HP from stealth. This was in a platinum level game, not low tier clown fiestas. There was no avoiding it - no dodging, no predicting it, the dude would burst you from stealth and you were INSTANTLY dead the second he hit you unless you were lucky and randomly dodging someone else. This is 20645 HP and 2029 armor - pretty absurd if you ask me.

Imo, please make chrono an actual "support" and completely revamp wells to follow you around like facets with actives or something. Chrono could be really cool and fun but in it's current form it's either a bunker sitting with wells or just...useless.

Mesmer in general should have its damage output reduced for all the utility and mobility it has.

7/7 traitline, all utilities syndrome ?Mean when 75% class are more mobile, has more sustain and do good damage, and it's a reality, wtf did you even wrote.Can you detail "all" mobility and utility you talk about please.

[mortrialus.3062]

@viquing.8254 said:

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:If you want to buff mesmer in any capacity you absolutely NEED to delete 1 shot perma stealth mesmer. I just got out of a game where the mesmer was perma stealthed and INSTANTLY killing me on thief with 20645 HP from stealth. This was in a platinum level game, not low tier clown fiestas. There was no avoiding it - no dodging, no predicting it, the dude would burst you from stealth and you were INSTANTLY dead the second he hit you unless you were lucky and randomly dodging someone else. This is 20645 HP and 2029 armor - pretty absurd if you ask me.

Imo, please make chrono an actual "support" and completely revamp wells to follow you around like facets with actives or something. Chrono could be really cool and fun but in it's current form it's either a bunker sitting with wells or just...useless.

Mesmer in general should have its damage output reduced for all the utility and mobility it has.

7/7 traitline, all utilities syndrome ?Mean when 75% class are more mobile, has more sustain and do good damage, and it's a reality, kitten did you even wrote.Can you detail "all" mobility and utility you talk about please.

YOU HAVE BLINK AND CAN MIMIC PORTAL NO ONE ELSE CAN COMPETE WITH THAT