[Doc] Mesmer changes suggestions for CmC

[mortrialus.3062]

Sorry Jazz but I knew this would happen.

The balance team may or may mot have a plan or vision but the one thing they believe in is that the community is happier when mesmer isn't good.

[Dadnir.5038]

@"mortrialus.3062" said:Sorry Jazz but I knew this would happen.

The balance team may or may mot have a plan or vision but the one thing they believe in is that the community is happier when mesmer isn't good.

It's probably more along the line that: "If nobody make a fuss out of it in the sPvP subforum, it's fine"

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"mortrialus.3062" said:Sorry Jazz but I knew this would happen.

The balance team may or may mot have a plan or vision but the one thing they believe in is that the community is happier when mesmer isn't good.

It's probably more along the line that: "If nobody make a fuss out of it in the sPvP subforum, it's fine"

if you kill all the players, nobody will be there to complain.5Head strat right there

[JazzXman.7018]

@mortrialus.3062 said:Sorry Jazz but I knew this would happen.

The balance team may or may mot have a plan or vision but the one thing they believe in is that the community is happier when mesmer isn't good.

yeah, its just sad bc it was discussed and promised before i even started to bother you guys with investing time to give feedback for the doc. without a clear promise to look over it i wouldnt have started to invest time myself. so i was clearly more optimistic that we at least get some sort of feedback but whatever. its not like there arent tons of reasons to use time for something else than this game and trying to make it better and hold it alive and give content for ppl. well you never stop learning i guess and i will learn that and at this point sooner than later.

so sry for bothering you all with such a time waste

[Salt Mode.3780]

@JazzXman.7018 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Sorry Jazz but I knew this would happen.

The balance team may or may mot have a plan or vision but the one thing they believe in is that the community is happier when mesmer isn't good.

yeah, its just sad bc it was discussed and promised before i even started to bother you guys with investing time to give feedback for the doc. without a clear promise to look over it i wouldnt have started to invest time myself. so i was clearly more optimistic that we at least get some sort of feedback but whatever. its not like there arent tons of reasons to use time for something else than this game and trying to make it better and hold it alive and give content for ppl. well you never stop learning i guess and i will learn that and at this point sooner than later.

so sry for bothering you all with such a time waste

I think the educational purposes was good for what it's worth. Promises not being kept isn't your fault it is the Dev's like I said there was multiple promises they broke I think the community at this point is just numb from them.

[Leonidrex.5649]

For all its worth, im fairly sure we all knew deep down inside that this is going to end like this.We did it for the sake of it, and personally, I did it for the sake off " I told you so " :DWas an interesting read, and im sure many mesmers will agree, and these days interesting read is all thats needed to keep oneself busy.

[Curunen.8729]

Still fun to theory craft, even if most of the time not much comes from it.

But the satisfaction is similar to making builds etc - just without the visual/aural stimulus with the flashy effects in game. xD

[Curunen.8729]

Reflecting further on the state of Mirage, I think regardless of any particular solution there are three key aspects that must be addressed at some point in the future:

 

1. One/Two dodge disparity

2. Unique shatters

3. Clone ambush design

 

I think we've all given many possibilities which way these things could go, and given this recent patch it seems the least expected thing can happen (ie I imagine most people did not anticipate alacrity) - so not wanting to cloud anything with more details and let Anet deal with that.

[Senqu.8054]

Tin foil hats on: ANet planned the alacrity changes for basically one year. There was never the intention to listen the feedback related to the „two dodge problem“

[Weasels God.8296]

Way too much to read thru to see if any of this has already been suggested but here is my opinion from a WvW standpoint :

 

Chrono is basically unplayable without distort on f4, I'd like to see that back personally and the distortion to be back to f5. It already has its other shatters changed as it's "compensation". Make it so signet doesn't recharge the f5, and that you can't precast skills then go into continuum split. That would solve a lot of the issues around using continuum split without having a proper setup of clones for duration. I'd also like to see Chrono's "wells" work similar to scrappers "gyros/wells" where they follow the mesmer. Most of the support aspects of the wells is on the last tick of the well and 90% of the time your not going to be on or around the well anymore - especially in WvW. Only one that might not be super good on is the Gravity Well but even that one I don't think is really a bad idea.

 

Mirage definitely needs to have the second dodge back, and the only trait that was really causing issues with the second dodge is Infiinite Horizon - so maybe attach the loss of second dodge directly to that trait and leave the second dodge if using one of the other grandmasters. I don't think I ever really saw much complaint about power mirages, almost entirely condi mirage and mostly due to Infinite Horizon stacking so well with ambush skills on clones.

[XenesisII.1540]

On 5/20/2021 at 2:36 PM, Weasels God.8296 said:

Mirage definitely needs to have the second dodge back, and the only trait that was really causing issues with the second dodge is Infiinite Horizon - so maybe attach the loss of second dodge directly to that trait and leave the second dodge if using one of the other grandmasters. I don't think I ever really saw much complaint about power mirages, almost entirely condi mirage and mostly due to Infinite Horizon stacking so well with ambush skills on clones.

 

Hmm if it were just the infinite horizon I would think they would have just nerfed that instead, or just nerf the ambush part, I think they also think the defensive part (the evade even when cc'd) of mirage cloak was also broken, hence why they just took the dodge to deal with it all at once.

 

Regardless I think overall it was one of the dumbest changes they've made on any class, they could have reduced the offensive part of mirage cloak whether that be infinite horizon or ambushes, to balance it with the defensive side making it a more defensive mechanic. But no, they would rather break their game where they let you play with two dodges from level 1-80 and through 25 other specs through 5 years, I say 25 because there's one other evade spec they allowed to have 3 dodges instead. Now we get this attempt to turn them into a "support" spec to revive them 🙄

 

[Salt Mode.3780]

Literally before Elusive mind was nerfed no one even batted an eye on infinite horizon (this was way back) what they can do is make Elusive mind and dune cloak better. Like all mesmer GM traits and traits in general only 1 is useful. 

They should also just split balance from sPvP and WvW because they aren't the same game mode.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Yoci.2481]

Actually they should use PvP rules in WvW.

[Salt Mode.3780]

13 hours ago, Yoci.2481 said:

Actually they should use PvP rules in WvW.

Literally no incentives for doing that, completely different game mode as well as equipment. "Rules" should be split.

sPvP is a snorefest as it is don't kill whatever is left of WvW.

Edited May 28, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Yoci.2481]

PvP balance is much more fine tuned than WvW balance, where you are generally much closer to your PvE power with insane stats combos, buff food and so on. Mesmer in particular would benefit from this change, because WvW Mesmer is already close to PvP Mesmer, more so than many other professions.

[Veprovina.4876]

4 hours ago, Yoci.2481 said:

PvP balance is much more fine tuned than WvW balance, where you are generally much closer to your PvE power with insane stats combos, buff food and so on. Mesmer in particular would benefit from this change, because WvW Mesmer is already close to PvP Mesmer, more so than many other professions.

Yes but the problem with that is that sPvP balance revolves around set stat numbers, standardized equipment. They never have to worry about someone having less or more stats due to exotic/ascended/infused gear. WvW as we all know uses PvE gear so it kinda needs its own balancing separately.

[Yoci.2481]

3 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Yes but the problem with that is that sPvP balance revolves around set stat numbers, standardized equipment. They never have to worry about someone having less or more stats due to exotic/ascended/infused gear. WvW as we all know uses PvE gear so it kinda needs its own balancing separately.

I know, that's why I want WvW to use PvP rules, so everyone has access to the same stats etc.

[Veprovina.4876]

2 hours ago, Yoci.2481 said:

I know, that's why I want WvW to use PvP rules, so everyone has access to the same stats etc.

Ah you mean gear as well?

[Salt Mode.3780]

3 hours ago, Yoci.2481 said:

I know, that's why I want WvW to use PvP rules, so everyone has access to the same stats etc.

So what you are saying is if there is a stat line that is problematic they will just remove it? No thanks, WvW already has little to no build diversity let alone changing it to sPvP. Also the difference between your concept of Mirage being strong in PvE and translate to WvW is that in sPvP for example, cleansing sigil cleanses 1 condi while in WvW it cleanses 3. 

Also sPvP balance is not "great" nor should it be a model example for WvW. If it was that great there would be more people playing sPvP.

Edited May 28, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Salt Mode.3780]

11 hours ago, Yoci.2481 said:

PvP balance is much more fine tuned than WvW balance, where you are generally much closer to your PvE power with insane stats combos, buff food and so on. Mesmer in particular would benefit from this change, because WvW Mesmer is already close to PvP Mesmer, more so than many other professions.

Also this isn't just applied to mesmer it is applied to nearly every class, but you are forgetting the dmg crunch that all classes recieved so I don't know where you are getting mirage getting close to pve numbers when clearly mirage still has 2 dodges in PvE.

Try doing 1 dodge in PvE as a mirage I can tell you ur dmg numbers will drop significantly as well as your survival vs mobs.

Edited May 28, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Yoci.2481]

19 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Ah you mean gear as well?

Yes I mean gear as well.

 

18 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

So what you are saying is if there is a stat line that is problematic they will just remove it? No thanks, WvW already has little to no build diversity let alone changing it to sPvP. Also the difference between your concept of Mirage being strong in PvE and translate to WvW is that in sPvP for example, cleansing sigil cleanses 1 condi while in WvW it cleanses 3. 

Also sPvP balance is not "great" nor should it be a model example for WvW. If it was that great there would be more people playing sPvP.

PvP has better balance in general so of course we would benefit from that balance in WvW. You say it is not great, but it is a lot better than WvW with the most outragrous abilities being toned down a bit.

 

18 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Also this isn't just applied to mesmer it is applied to nearly every class, but you are forgetting the dmg crunch that all classes recieved so I don't know where you are getting mirage getting close to pve numbers when clearly mirage still has 2 dodges in PvE.

Try doing 1 dodge in PvE as a mirage I can tell you ur dmg numbers will drop significantly as well as your survival vs mobs.

All classes have some of their skills split for PvE,WvW and PvP. In general (there are exceptions) PvE has the strongest skills, with some skills being toned down in WvW and even more skills toned down in WvW. Not all classes are affected by this equally. I have not done all the numbers but my general perception is that the WvW skills of Mesmer are more close to their PvP skills than on average. So bringing everyone down to the PvP floor would reduces Mesmer's power less than that of many other classes, bringing everyone more in line.

[Senqu.8054]

Im totally behind yoci here. The current devs are nothing more then janitors for this game. They have no clue, never had a clue, and never will have a clue. Outliner skills with stupidly low cds and overwhelming high damage numbers with 5er digits just shows how bad the situation is.
 

Beside the fact that anet hasn’t even the resources for more then one guy for the whole PvP balance (exaggerated spoken) Not to mention that we STILL have 300cd traits and no one to solve this problem. So where should all the resources for 3 different balanced game modes come from??? 
 

 

[phokus.8934]

Wvw having the same rules as pvp is one of those ideas that you should keep to yourself because it’s astronomically bad.

 

Also don’t waste your time because it will never happen.

[Yoci.2481]

Oh, so it's "bad". I'm convinced.

[phokus.8934]

7 minutes ago, Yoci.2481 said:

Oh, so it's "bad". I'm convinced.

I’m not here to have any in-depth discussion on bad ideas.  There is a post under the wvw section that you can search for and read through.  But like I said, it will never happen so talking about it is a waste of time.