Awkward Mirage gameplay - compilation of mechanics from stress test

[Cyninja.2954]

@OriOri.8724 said:One can argue that DD's class mechanic is really its improved dodge, and not the third bar of endurance. Otherwise you would have a GM that didn't give you an improved dodge.

Also of course we can't compare it to DD's dodges. Thief gets an offensive dodge and then gets the resources to back that up. Mirage gets an offensive dodge that is, in every way, worse than what DD got, yet gets nothing to back it up. The comparison is mainly, that we have this other elite spec whose mechanic was built on dodging, and they were given the necessary endurange regen to support that. While mirage's mechanic is built on dodging and is given almost no vigor, no enhanced vigor, and no endurance regen/extra endurance.

It shows either gross incompetence in the high level design of Mirage (which I completely believe based on their elite spec video), and/or also a refusal to give mesmer a cohesive mechanic (which I also believe).

OriOri basically explained why I was refering to Thief and their dodge mechanic as Daredevil. Obviously you can't compare 1 elite to another that easily since a lot of more factors play into balance, but here we have 2 elite specialisations which focus heavily on how and when the class dodges yet one of both is left out to dry.

I'm also not for adding a 3rd dodge for Mirage, I'd rather they fix the issues we have with it (a 3rd dodge wouldn't help here) same as they did for Thief and DD.

[zealex.9410]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Carighan.6758 said:Well to be fair, having a "weaker dodge" (which we knew Mirage Cloak was going to be , right from the start) is

supposed to

offset the fact that we get an offensive benefit from dodging, something other classes tend to do not do (there are exceptions, as always).

Of course, they blew it in two places at once:

• Ambush skills are so weak, half of them you wish you could disable so they don't overwrite the autoattack.
• Access to Mirage Cloak is far too limited and too finicky for the above reasoning to make sense.

Daredevil had a weaker dodge and arenanet changed that by giving DD 3 dodges and different powerful buffs to their dodge mechanic making it a straight up upgrade in every possible way compared to base dodge. I'd much prefer arenanet weaken our Mirage dodge and make it an always upgrade over base dodge than keeping it the way it is now (considering I don't think the sacrifice worthwhile). Losing side- and backdodge mobility is not an option (in a game which has all content designed around how base dodge works) unless they want Mirage to remain a gimmick spec that is barely useful in all game modes.

Agreed on the ambush situation. When your ambush skills are weaker than the normal autoattack, you might as well not have the mechanic. Since Mirage is all about movement, having rooting ambush skills is even worse design. I got nothing against channeled ambush skills (to make our mirage dodge protection actually useful) but taking away even more mobility does not make sense.

Ironically (or not I guess, I don't really know), its thieves who are some of the loudest proponents I've seen claiming that mirage cloak is not only fine, its ridiculously overpowered. I guess they already forgot DD in its entirety. Seriously, with our dodges being turned into offensive things, we really need way more endurange regen, and ideally an extra 50 endurance as well

Id love a third dodge bar but anet might be hesitant considering how dd turned out to be.

Meaning? DD is the go to +1 class in spvp making it almost required, the number 1 class for running around and farming materials, one of the top dps for raids and one of the best roamers for wvw. Why do thiefs get to have such a dps class yet mesmer do not?

My point exactly. Looking at the gen 2 specs and how specs like berserker tempest herald and scrapper play out anet didnt really want things like dd and chrono to happen. Both these elite specs are just way better in everyway imaginable than the core classes and even their gen 2 elites. I dought anet would like to create such a problem for themselves again.

Alternatively if they did then pls buff mirage to be like that id love that but nerfs to tempest and berserker suggest otherwise.

[zealex.9410]

Action cam could fix the inferior movement issues sidesteping and backpedaling present.

Ofc noted that having to use action camera for this is merely a bandaid. I always enjoyed the action cam and ill try it with mirage but i can understand why ppl wouldnt like to resort to that.

Arena net has to make all the abilities that teleport you in a random location around the target do so with you facing the target. Or at least have the target in the genral field of view :<

[Esplen.3940]

@zealex.9410 said:Action cam could fix the inferior movement issues sidesteping and backpedaling present.

Ofc noted that having to use action camera for this is merely a bandaid. I always enjoyed the action cam and ill try it with mirage but i can understand why ppl wouldnt like to resort to that.

Arena net has to make all the abilities that teleport you in a random location around the target do so with you facing the target. Or at least have the target in the genral field of view :<

Action camera doesn't fix the issue of mobility. It lets you move easier, but you still cannot move at superspeed with superspeed while attacking unless you are charging at your target.

[zealex.9410]

@Esplen.3940 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Action cam could fix the inferior movement issues sidesteping and backpedaling present.

Ofc noted that having to use action camera for this is merely a bandaid. I always enjoyed the action cam and ill try it with mirage but i can understand why ppl wouldnt like to resort to that.

Arena net has to make all the abilities that teleport you in a random location around the target do so with you facing the target. Or at least have the target in the genral field of view :<

Action camera doesn't fix the issue of mobility. It lets you move easier, but you still cannot move at superspeed with superspeed while attacking unless you are charging at your target.

True but old dodge didnt allow you to attack while dodging as well. Besides the superspeed in combat is a masive movspeed boost. At leasnt it feels like where i get supersoeed in a fractal or a raid.

[Esplen.3940]

Mirage Cloak's Superspeed is 300 movement for 0.75s (400 movespeed/sec for 0.75s = 300 movement) if you run forward during the entire duration.Dodging is 300 movement in any direction for 0.75s. You are forced to move for the entire duration.

Sure, you can attack, but now you're not moving which is pretty important. How many times have you dodged trying to get out of mechanics/damage and not just for evading a single attack?

Moving on dodge is also pretty important, particularly because there was a balance phase where ANet was trying to punish wearing Full Zerk and made undodgeable attacks that required places to move out of them instead of just dodging the mechanic.

Also note that technically Mirage Cloak doesn't have Superspeed or any movement, it simply "allows" movement while you are evading. The Superspeed is a Minor Grandmaster that we get, not part of the Cloak itself.

[zealex.9410]

@Esplen.3940 said:Mirage Cloak's Superspeed is 300 movement for 0.75s (400 movespeed/sec for 0.75s = 300 movement) if you run forward during the entire duration.Dodging is 300 movement in any direction for 0.75s. You are forced to move for the entire duration.

Sure, you can attack, but now you're not moving which is pretty important. How many times have you dodged trying to get out of mechanics/damage and not just for evading a single attack?

Moving on dodge is also pretty important, particularly because there was a balance phase where ANet was trying to punish wearing Full Zerk and made undodgeable attacks that required places to move out of them instead of just dodging the mechanic.

Also note that technically Mirage Cloak doesn't have Superspeed or any movement, it simply "allows" movement while you are evading. The Superspeed is a Minor Grandmaster that we get, not part of the Cloak itself.

Ofc. I'd rather it be base line and that minor be something else but since its a minor u might as well consider it a base functionality.

[Esplen.3940]

If you consider it base functionality, then the spec has no Minor Grandmaster.

[zealex.9410]

@Esplen.3940 said:If you consider it base functionality, then the spec has no Minor Grandmaster.

I mean i consider all the minors base functionallity since i dont have say wehter i want them or not. Same with chrono and same with all the base mesmer lines.

[Pyroatheist.9031]

Action Camera

Functionality Fix

Pick one. Action camera hamstrings the playing capability for basically every build that isn't bomb/mortar engie. I know it's fun to use, but gw2 simply isn't built in a way that lets it be an effective way to play.

[Esplen.3940]

I don't think Mirage Cloak is okay where it's at right now, in conjunction with how the game works and how Ambushes work. If Ambushes didn't root you and you gained improved movement in any direction (not just forward), then that would be a good Minor Grandmaster (it would be better than Superspeed because of backpedal/sidestep while also fitting the purpose of moving while attacking).

If that Minor Grandmaster has to stay as Superspeed, they could give it a rider similar to Tempest's Hardy Conduit where it has:Gain Prot when Overloading. Prot is more effective on Tempest.

Going back to Mirage Cloak, it fights its own design. You can move while attacking. But you can access to a move (that you have to initiate while "Cloaked") that tends to root you. You also can't move at full speed in any direction except forward if you choose to continue attacking (without using Ambushes).

So you can choose to move at full speed in any direction, effectively dodging the old way (albeit with more effect put into moving, see enabling/disabling action camera), or you can root yourself to gain access to your hard hitting ability. A third choice is you can ignore the rooted ability and continue attacking as normal, but you don't gain the movespeed unless you're running towards your opponent.

In 1 of the 3 ways of using this dodge, you gain access to the full movement.In 1 of the 3 ways of using this dodge, you lose access to the damage portion.In 1 of the 3 ways of using this dodge, you get partial access to the movement (see: normal movement) and partial access to damage (see: normal damage).

It tries to give us 2 things at the same time and we instead get... well... 3 ways of fighting the merged mechanic.

[Cyninja.2954]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Carighan.6758 said:Well to be fair, having a "weaker dodge" (which we knew Mirage Cloak was going to be , right from the start) is

supposed to

offset the fact that we get an offensive benefit from dodging, something other classes tend to do not do (there are exceptions, as always).

Of course, they blew it in two places at once:

• Ambush skills are so weak, half of them you wish you could disable so they don't overwrite the autoattack.
• Access to Mirage Cloak is far too limited and too finicky for the above reasoning to make sense.

Daredevil had a weaker dodge and arenanet changed that by giving DD 3 dodges and different powerful buffs to their dodge mechanic making it a straight up upgrade in every possible way compared to base dodge. I'd much prefer arenanet weaken our Mirage dodge and make it an always upgrade over base dodge than keeping it the way it is now (considering I don't think the sacrifice worthwhile). Losing side- and backdodge mobility is not an option (in a game which has all content designed around how base dodge works) unless they want Mirage to remain a gimmick spec that is barely useful in all game modes.

Agreed on the ambush situation. When your ambush skills are weaker than the normal autoattack, you might as well not have the mechanic. Since Mirage is all about movement, having rooting ambush skills is even worse design. I got nothing against channeled ambush skills (to make our mirage dodge protection actually useful) but taking away even more mobility does not make sense.

Ironically (or not I guess, I don't really know), its thieves who are some of the loudest proponents I've seen claiming that mirage cloak is not only fine, its ridiculously overpowered. I guess they already forgot DD in its entirety. Seriously, with our dodges being turned into offensive things, we really need way more endurange regen, and ideally an extra 50 endurance as well

Id love a third dodge bar but anet might be hesitant considering how dd turned out to be.

Meaning? DD is the go to +1 class in spvp making it almost required, the number 1 class for running around and farming materials, one of the top dps for raids and one of the best roamers for wvw. Why do thiefs get to have such a dps class yet mesmer do not?

My point exactly. Looking at the gen 2 specs and how specs like berserker tempest herald and scrapper play out anet didnt really want things like dd and chrono to happen. Both these elite specs are just way better in everyway imaginable than the core classes and even their gen 2 elites. I dought anet would like to create such a problem for themselves again.

Alternatively if they did then pls buff mirage to be like that id love that but nerfs to tempest and berserker suggest otherwise.

Please just leave and don't bring this "core classes should be on par with elite specs" bs here. This was covered in the past, elite specialisations are upgrades in the current iteration of the game.

Which nerfs to tempest and berserker? You mean the ones that made berserker a top tier dps since august 8th and kept tempest as top damage dealer? Wow, I wish mesmer would see some of those nerfs.

@zealex.9410 said:

@Esplen.3940 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Action cam could fix the inferior movement issues sidesteping and backpedaling present.

Ofc noted that having to use action camera for this is merely a bandaid. I always enjoyed the action cam and ill try it with mirage but i can understand why ppl wouldnt like to resort to that.

Arena net has to make all the abilities that teleport you in a random location around the target do so with you facing the target. Or at least have the target in the genral field of view :<

Action camera doesn't fix the issue of mobility. It lets you move easier, but you still cannot move at superspeed with superspeed while attacking unless you are charging at your target.

True but old dodge didnt allow you to attack while dodging as well. Besides the superspeed in combat is a masive movspeed boost. At leasnt it feels like where i get supersoeed in a fractal or a raid.

I assume you've watched the video Esplen made. If not watch it and then come comment in his thread.

This is not about old dodge, this is about mirage dodge not fullfilling a similar role to basic dodge which is the minimum amount a new dodge skill has to fullfill in order to work in a game which is designed around basic dodge. How is this a hard concept to understand?

[FaboBabo.3581]

@Esplen.3940 said:I don't think Mirage Cloak is okay where it's at right now, in conjunction with how the game works and how Ambushes work. If Ambushes didn't root you and you gained improved movement in any direction (not just forward), then that would be a good Minor Grandmaster (it would be better than Superspeed because of backpedal/sidestep while also fitting the purpose of moving while attacking).

If that Minor Grandmaster has to stay as Superspeed, they could give it a rider similar to Tempest's Hardy Conduit where it has:Gain Prot when Overloading. Prot is more effective on Tempest.

Going back to Mirage Cloak, it fights its own design. You can move while attacking. But you can access to a move (that you have to initiate while "Cloaked") that tends to root you. You also can't move at full speed in any direction except forward if you choose to continue attacking (without using Ambushes).

So you can choose to move at full speed in any direction, effectively dodging the old way (albeit with more effect put into moving, see enabling/disabling action camera), or you can root yourself to gain access to your hard hitting ability. A third choice is you can ignore the rooted ability and continue attacking as normal, but you don't gain the movespeed unless you're running towards your opponent.

In 1 of the 3 ways of using this dodge, you gain access to the full movement.In 1 of the 3 ways of using this dodge, you lose access to the damage portion.In 1 of the 3 ways of using this dodge, you get partial access to the movement (see: normal movement) and partial access to damage (see: normal damage).

It tries to give us 2 things at the same time and we instead get... well... 3 ways of fighting the merged mechanic.

No Offense here but ;Only scepter Ambush roots u, but it has a 200 unit teleport behind u for this.None of the other Ambushes roots u. Sword ambush is a dash....

Edit ; I wrote "Doesn't look like u played mirrage, so maybe u should take a step back.", but that FELT OFFENSIVE too me so i deleted this part out of my Post.

[Pyroatheist.9031]

@FaboBabo.3581 said:No Offense here but ;Only scepter Ambush roots u, but it has a 200 unit teleport behind u for this.

Be still my heart. To compensate for the root, it almost blinks you out of melee range.

Edit: I also find it really amusing how some people are arguing that the mirage dodge is really good because it lets you cast channeled as without interruption...but base mesmer has very few of these. Mirage on the other hand...all of the ambush skills are slow and channeled. I wonder what a headshot thief is gonna think when the mirage they fight stops to channel a 1.5s ambush skill after every dodge...

[FaboBabo.3581]

@Pyroatheist.9031 said:

@FaboBabo.3581 said:No Offense here but ;Only scepter Ambush roots u, but it has a 200 unit teleport behind u for this.

Be still my heart. To compensate for the root, it almost blinks you out of melee range.

Edit: I also find it really amusing how some people are arguing that the mirage dodge is really good because it lets you cast channeled as without interruption...but base mesmer has very few of these. Mirage on the other hand...all of the ambush skills are slow and channeled. I wonder what a headshot thief is gonna think when the mirage they fight stops to channel a 1.5s ambush skill after every dodge...

Wasn't saying that scepter Ambush is great in general. I only pointed out it's the ONLY one which roots u, cause u said EVERY Ambush roots.

Only Greatsword and Scepter got Ambushes longer then 1 second, which is due to the Fact they are multihit Abilities, like Confusing Images for example (2 second Casttime). If u Ambush directly after u dodge, 0,75s will be covered by the dodge, so for GS and Scepter u have another 0,75s to be interrupted, but u allready dealt a potion of the dmg before. ( Don't 100% remember the GS Ambush animation, could be wrong here)

Staff Ambush has a 1 Second Casttime, all others have less then 0,75s Casttime. Staff Ambush is the only Ambush which can be interrupted without dealing ANY Dmg.

[Esplen.3940]

@FaboBabo.3581 said:No Offense here but ;Only scepter Ambush roots u, but it has a 200 unit teleport behind u for this.None of the other Ambushes roots u. Sword ambush is a dash....Doesn't look like u played mirrage, so maybe u should take a step back.

You're right I didn't test them all out to see whether or not I was rooted, but that doesn't stop them from being trash.

Uh huh, but the GS Ambush (1.5s cast) is weaker than just auto attacking, in addition to basically just being an auto attack (oh you split shot instead of pierce? ok).The Sword ambush (0.75s) is ONLY useful as a leap, whether you use it towards your target or not, you're not using Superspeed and leaping instead. It being a daze is somewhat irrelevant to the current meta and it spawning a clone ends up hurting your sustained damage output significantly.The Staff roots you, afaik. I could be wrong because I don't use Staff (and didn't test it) unless I'm running WvW/PvP and I'm terrible at gauging what's good against other players. (I also tend to use GS these days because lazy.)However, Staff ambush has a target cap of 5 (and you're one of those targets) in addition to taking 1s to get out (0.75s dodge + 1s cast time = nice).

The only ambush that has a shorter cast time than the Cloak is Axe and that has next to no range (in addition to being projectiles so yay projectil hate/reflect).

So basically for most ambushes you lose the movespeed whether or not you're rooted because you aren't going to be running directly at a target.

But hey, it looks like didn't play Mirage, so I'll take a step back and let the OP of this thread handle this... oh wait.

[FaboBabo.3581]

@Esplen.3940 said:

@FaboBabo.3581 said:No Offense here but ;Only scepter Ambush roots u, but it has a 200 unit teleport behind u for this.None of the other Ambushes roots u. Sword ambush is a dash....Doesn't look like u played mirrage, so maybe u should take a step back.

You're right I didn't test them all out to see whether or not I was rooted, but that doesn't stop them from being trash.

Uh huh, but the GS Ambush (1.5s cast) is weaker than just auto attacking, in addition to basically just being an auto attack (oh you split shot instead of pierce? ok).The Sword ambush (0.75s) is ONLY useful as a leap, whether you use it towards your target or not, you're not using Superspeed and leaping instead. It being a daze is somewhat irrelevant to the current meta and it spawning a clone ends up hurting your sustained damage output significantly.The Staff roots you, afaik. I could be wrong because I don't use Staff (and didn't test it) unless I'm running WvW/PvP and I'm terrible at gauging what's good against other players. (I also tend to use GS these days because lazy.)However, Staff ambush has a target cap of 5 (and you're one of those targets) in addition to taking 1s to get out (0.75s dodge + 1s cast time = nice).

The only ambush that has a shorter cast time than the Cloak is Axe and that has next to no range (in addition to being projectiles so yay projectil hate/reflect).

So basically for most ambushes you lose the movespeed whether or not you're rooted because you aren't going to be running directly at a target.

But hey, it looks like didn't play Mirage, so I'll take a step back and let the OP of this thread handle this... oh wait.

Dont really know what to say about this.Interrupting with sword Ambush was a GREAT Thing for me in Beta. (could be wrong here, but Cast time felt shorter when in meele range)

With Staff u COULD use phase retreat to get out of AoE's while doing ur Ambush.(Staff Ambush still doesn't root) For the GS Ambush ; i was not talking about Numbers, which we should ignore for now. We were talking about roots and interruptions. Axe Ambush has the SAME Cast Time as Mirage cloak is active.

Yes u loose Movement speed, while u attack, while u dodge. Nothing to add here, it's a trade off. Moving backwards or sidestepping won't make u faster on Mirrage, but Mirrage has de descision,which Mesmers don't. (if we are talking bout dodging only-> Mirrage has everything base Mesmer has; F4, blurred, Traited sigils etc)

Mirrage can decide ; Do i dodge and ambush or Do i dodge turnarround and run out of AoE.

Im not saying Mirrage is 100% fine. It needs tweaks (longer Ambush avaibality for example, Most dmg coefficients etc.) but stay at facts pls.

Oh yeah btw there are 2 different mirrage cloaks ; 0,75s from normal dodge. 1 s from Mirrors.Should be 1 s on both for example.

[Esplen.3940]

@FaboBabo.3581 said:Dont really know what to say about this.Interrupting with sword Ambush was a GREAT Thing for me in Beta. (could be wrong here, but Cast time felt shorter when in meele range)

For PvE or PvP?

With Staff u COULD use phase retreat to get out of AoE's while doing ur Ambush.(Staff Ambush still doesn't root) For the GS Ambush ; i was not talking about Numbers, which we should ignore for now. We were talking about roots and interruptions. Axe Ambush has the SAME Cast Time as Mirage cloak is active.

You're right, we should ignore damage, but GS still takes 1.5s to come out, and Staff takes 1s to come out, both of which are longer than the length of Mirage Cloak. GS is a slightly different auto attack (at it's core, a beam that cleaves) and Staff is a line projectile (with a 5 target cap). GS being a slightly different auto attack makes it a very bland ambush, which is fine if it didn't take so long to come out. Staff being a projectile is a huge problem because there's a ton of projectile hate in the game, with reflects, destruction, and even terrain (not walls, but the ground around you can and does break projectiles).

Yes u loose Movement speed, while u attack, while u dodge. Nothing to add here, it's a trade off. Moving backwards or sidestepping won't make u faster on Mirrage, but Mirrage has de descision,which Mesmers don't. (if we are talking bout dodging only-> Mirrage has everything base Mesmer has; F4, blurred, Traited sigils etc)Mirrage can decide ; Do i dodge and ambush or Do i dodge turnarround and run out of AoE.

Of the elites (gen2 or otherwise), there are none that give you a different base game mechanic. Even with Daredevil and Scrapper, they add onto the base game mechanic instead of completely replacing it (although Daredevil does get powered up dodges to fit different playstyles, technically it's possible to not run those while still being a Daredevil).

If the blur mechanic is supposed to give you the power of attacking while avoiding damage, why does it end up giving you the option of attacking or avoiding damage? It's supposed to be a this and that, not a this or that. That's the problem. It has a design philosophy that it's built around and it's failed.

Im not saying Mirrage is 100% fine. It needs tweaks (longer Ambush avaibality for example, Most dmg coefficients etc.) but stay at facts pls.Oh yeah btw there are 2 different mirrage cloaks ; 0,75s from normal dodge. 1 s from Mirrors.Should be 1 s on both for example.

That's somewhat irrelevant to the discussion about losing mobility from dodging, especially with the delay on every Mirror spawned (or being reached with Sand through Glass). You could argue that Illusionary Ambush is an instant cast Mirage Cloak, but that gives you 0.75s Cloak and it's own slew of problems (see: video).

[FaboBabo.3581]

@Esplen.3940 said:

@FaboBabo.3581 said:Dont really know what to say about this.Interrupting with sword Ambush was a GREAT Thing for me in Beta. (could be wrong here, but Cast time felt shorter when in meele range)

For PvE or PvP?

With Staff u COULD use phase retreat to get out of AoE's while doing ur Ambush.(Staff Ambush still doesn't root) For the GS Ambush ; i was not talking about Numbers, which we should ignore for now. We were talking about roots and interruptions. Axe Ambush has the SAME Cast Time as Mirage cloak is active.

You're right, we should ignore damage, but GS still takes 1.5s to come out, and Staff takes 1s to come out, both of which are longer than the length of Mirage Cloak. GS is a slightly different auto attack (at it's core, a beam that cleaves) and Staff is a line projectile (with a 5 target cap). GS being a slightly different auto attack makes it a very bland ambush, which is fine if it didn't take so long to come out. Staff being a projectile is a huge problem because there's a ton of projectile hate in the game, with reflects, destruction, and even terrain (not walls, but the ground around you can and does break projectiles).

Yes u loose Movement speed, while u attack, while u dodge. Nothing to add here, it's a trade off. Moving backwards or sidestepping won't make u faster on Mirrage, but Mirrage has de descision,which Mesmers don't. (if we are talking bout dodging only-> Mirrage has everything base Mesmer has; F4, blurred, Traited sigils etc)Mirrage can decide ; Do i dodge and ambush or Do i dodge turnarround and run out of AoE.

Of the elites (gen2 or otherwise), there are none that give you a different base game mechanic. Even with Daredevil and Scrapper, they add onto the base game mechanic instead of completely replacing it (although Daredevil does get powered up dodges to fit different playstyles, technically it's possible to not run those while still being a Daredevil).

If the blur mechanic is supposed to give you the power of attacking while avoiding damage, why does it end up giving you the option of attacking or avoiding damage? It's supposed to be a this and that, not a this or that. That's the problem. It has a design philosophy that it's built around and it's failed.

Im not saying Mirrage is 100% fine. It needs tweaks (longer Ambush avaibality for example, Most dmg coefficients etc.) but stay at facts pls.Oh yeah btw there are 2 different mirrage cloaks ; 0,75s from normal dodge. 1 s from Mirrors.Should be 1 s on both for example.

That's somewhat irrelevant to the discussion about losing mobility from dodging, especially with the delay on every Mirror spawned (or being reached with Sand through Glass). You could argue that Illusionary Ambush is an instant cast Mirage Cloak, but that gives you 0.75s Cloak and it's own slew of problems (see: video).

Looks like we're pretty much on the same level right now.I'm 100% talking about the WvW, sPvP - Prespective, so u can see why i LOVE Sword Ambush. To make this sure; GS Ambush is garbage right now, but i still think Cloak into Ambush is a good mechanic, and if the GS Ambush would be strong ; 1,5 s Cast time are cool. Staff Ambush while beeing strong WHEN it hits, was for some Players a Pain to even hit + Projectile mechanic. Pretty sure the first Part will change, while it remains as a Projectile, but since we can now life with projectils i don't see why this would change. Sure u got a lot of reflections avaible, but i never faced a full reflection enemy.

"If the blur mechanic is supposed to give you the power of attacking while avoiding damage, why does it end up giving you the option of attacking or avoiding damage? It's supposed to be a this and that, not a this or that. That's the problem. It has a design philosophy that it's built around and it's failed."

You can dodge and do damage in the same time, but not vs. every other ability.There are some 1 Hit- Single Target ability, u wanna dodge; u can easily ambush here.

...and there are some AoE-Clusterfuks, u cannot afford to stand in for even 1 second; u Can't ambush here.

Now ; Mesmer cant attack in both situations, cause he is ONLY dodging on both sitauations (when no f4,blurred bla bla etc)

Oh and yeah; QoL should be 110% better on Mirrage like it was on demos, aka illusionary Ambush.

[Dondagora.9645]

How about this idea: Our Endurance is reduced to one bar, but our Mirage Cloak/Dodge lasts for 3 seconds. This'll make our Cloak more powerful, increase our window to use Ambushes, give our clones and phantasms more survivability vis IH, and make Vigor more potent in our kit.

Otherwise, I'd prefer to get a blink on Mirage Cloak/Dodge instead of Superspeed.

[Esplen.3940]

That... could actually work. Although it would almost require Mirrors to play effectively.

It would also make Mirage Advance really, really powerful (even with the 1.5s cast time) if it would ever let itself get cast. 25 Endurance is half a bar.

[Carighan.6758]

@Cyninja.2954 said:Meaning? DD is the go to +1 class in spvp making it almost required, the number 1 class for running around and farming materials, one of the top dps for raids and one of the best roamers for wvw. Why do thiefs get to have such a dps class yet mesmer do not?

That's the point. DD turned out to be both too versatile and too strong for what it wanted to do. But the versatility is really the biggest flaw, a lot of gen1 elite specs had this where they are just flat upgrades over the base class.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Esplen.3940 said:Also note that technically Mirage Cloak doesn't have Superspeed or any movement, it simply "allows" movement while you are evading. The Superspeed is a Minor Grandmaster that we get, not part of the Cloak itself.

That's a semantic argument. It had some value back in the days when you had to pick and choose minor traits so you might only get slightly into Mirage spec, but nowadays, minor traits can just be assumed to be natural passive elements of playing the spec at all. There won't be any Mirages that don't have that ability after a week or two.

Also keep in mind that having it as a "grandmaster minor" is not "taking away" some other minor. They put it there because that's what they want us to have. They could cram as many or as few effects into each slot as they like, they believe that the current three minors are balanced as automatic passives, and if they change their mind they can add or remove effects from them as they see fit.

[Esplen.3940]

It only took 2 days for the thieves to arrive!

[Skuzz.6580]

Seems like to get the most out of Mirage Cloak you need to be using the Action Camera.For those that don't know, pressing A,D, or S while in Action Camera mode will do a forward motion in those directions. essentially meaning that you will not have to face the camera in a direction at all, simply pressing A,D or S moves you to the directions at full speed.Edit: As Esplen said, this movement is only out of combat, which sadly does not help you much when trying to move out of ground targets

Here is a small guide on how you can use Action Camera:

Now I know this is not what you guys actually want out of this topic, but don't count on Anet to have any fixes or solutions until after PoF release. So for the time being, I'd really suggest having a look at the Action Camera ;)