Awkward Mirage gameplay - compilation of mechanics from stress test

[Esplen.3940]

Note: Action camera only makes it easier to move when not attacking, it does not do anything (different) if you are attacking.

[Carighan.6758]

It also - IMO - creates an incredibly weird camera dynamic which just feels utterly alien when playing over-the-shoulder. And as much as I like first-person play (where it feels natural), GW2 just isn't made for that, with its blinding spell effects and constant AE barrages.

[Esplen.3940]

@"Skuzz.6580" clarification: Action camera definitely works in-combat. It does not work while actively attacking.

Quick video of it in action (camera).

Quality should improve with time as it gets processed.Depending on when you view it, it'll be potato or possible even potatoes.

[Pyroatheist.9031]

@Skuzz.6580 said:Seems like to get the most out of Mirage Cloak you need to be using the Action Camera.For those that don't know, pressing A,D, or S while in Action Camera mode will do a forward motion in those directions. essentially meaning that you will not have to face the camera in a direction at all, simply pressing A,D or S moves you to the directions at full speed.Edit: As Esplen said, this movement is only out of combat, which sadly does not help you much when trying to move out of ground targets

Here is a small guide on how you can use Action Camera:

Now I know this is not what you guys actually want out of this topic, but don't count on Anet to have any fixes or solutions until after PoF release. So for the time being, I'd really suggest having a look at the Action Camera ;)

Are you actually suggesting action camera as a solution?

Please no.

Action camera hamstrings your AOE placement and your camera control. There are many games that I enjoy where bound mouse controls are appropriate. GW2 is not one of them. Suggesting action camera implies that you've never actually experienced skilled play.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Skuzz.6580 said:Seems like to get the most out of Mirage Cloak you need to be using the Action Camera.For those that don't know, pressing A,D, or S while in Action Camera mode will do a forward motion in those directions. essentially meaning that you will not have to face the camera in a direction at all, simply pressing A,D or S moves you to the directions at full speed.Edit: As Esplen said, this movement is only out of combat, which sadly does not help you much when trying to move out of ground targets

Here is a small guide on how you can use Action Camera:

Now I know this is not what you guys actually want out of this topic, but don't count on Anet to have any fixes or solutions until after PoF release. So for the time being, I'd really suggest having a look at the Action Camera ;)

That people are suggesting terrible "solutions" like running action camera to make the Elite Dodge as good as the base dodge in and of itself should show how terrible the Mirage Cloak is.

Right now you can only properly evade with Mirage Cloak in 3/8 directions. That's terrible and there is no reason for it it. Mirage Cloak should just have 400 movement speed even with moving backwards or strafing.

What's really funny is that the new Sword Condition Daredevil sPVP build that everyone is complaining about is exactly what the Mirage is trying to be, except far, far better in every way, is much more intuitive and easy to play, and isn't terrible to play from a mechanics and feel perspective and isn't sacrificing things like 5/8 of the directions you can evade.

If you want to get the most out of Mirage, just play Chronomancer or Sword Condition Daredevil instead. There is no reason to play it and no area in the game it will shine in in it's current form.

Stop being contrarian and playing devil's advocate. It's annoying.

[Mitzruti.5719]

I think the idea with mirage cloak is that you don't have to move during it so that you can blend in with your clones.To deal with the lack of mobility caused by that, several of the deception skills provide mobility.

There's issues with the implementation of those ideas, but I think the idea is solid.

some of the more obvious things, imo:

• ambushes are underpowered. a couple have niche usefulness, but they don't have the oomph they ought to.
• there's only a couple clones that are anything more than shatterfodder (staff and axe) and no traits or anything that can change that.
• clones are too fragile to keep out, and mirage does nothing to help with that.
• the cost of infinite horizon ambushing is BOTH a gm trait and NOT using phantasms.
• and, in the case of axe clones, interrupting their attack combo. resulting in ambushing feeling like a DPS loss for them.
• using mirrors means you aren't blending in. and expire way too quickly.
• or really, using any deception other than IA means you don't blend in. it'd be cool if they all made clones do something.
• you don't gain quite enough mobility from deception skills to make up for the loss from dodge movement.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Mitzruti.5719 said:I think the idea with mirage cloak is that you don't have to move during it so that you can blend in with your clones.To deal with the lack of mobility caused by that, several of the deception skills provide mobility.

There's issues with the implementation of those ideas, but I think the idea is solid.

some of the more obvious things, imo:

• ambushes are underpowered. a couple have niche usefulness, but they don't have the oomph they ought to.
• there's only a couple clones that are anything more than shatterfodder (staff and axe) and no traits or anything that can change that.
• clones are too fragile to keep out, and mirage does nothing to help with that.
• the cost of infinite horizon ambushing is BOTH a gm trait and NOT using phantasms.
• and, in the case of axe clones, interrupting their attack combo. resulting in ambushing feeling like a DPS loss for them.
• using mirrors means you aren't blending in. and expire way too quickly.
• or really, using any deception other than IA means you don't blend in. it'd be cool if they all made clones do something.
• you don't gain quite enough mobility from deception skills to make up for the loss from dodge movement.

Infinite Horizons is not good for damage. Dune Cloak and phantasms are so much better than IH for damage that it's silly how hung up people are on the trait. IH is pretty much exclusively and explicitly there to make your clones more deceptive, not to make your ambush attacks do more damage.

The problem with mirage is that 1. "deception" isn't a role. It's a means to an end. Mirage is designed to be deceptive, but there is no answer to what it is trying to accomplish by being deceptive. Are you using deception to be really evasive and hard to pin down? Are you using deception to open up opportunities to do devastating attacks? Do you use deception to sabotage enemy offensive efforts? The Mirage's answer is none of these. Or anything else.

Also trying to make a "deceptive" elite spec has the same problem core Memser will always have; You can never get the AI to convincingly move like a player. Any skilled player can quickly identify the mesmer.

Also 3/5 of the mirage traits being really bad, boring shadowsteps is really disappointing.

[Dondagora.9645]

Anyone else feel it's strange that we get a dodge ability to perform actions uninterrupted, yet we've gained very few abilities that can take advantage of Mirage Cloak?

[Mitzruti.5719]

and the reason IH is bad for damage is literally the first point in the list: ambushes are underpowered.

hell, the whole is list is a bunch of obvious reasons that the blending in really doesn't work, even though I think it is a pretty cool idea.

[Esplen.3940]

@mortrialus.3062 said:Also 3/5 of the mirage traits being really bad, boring shadowsteps is really disappointing.

Traits? You mean utilities?

@Mitzruti.5719 said:and the reason IH is bad for damage is literally the first point in the list: ambushes are underpowered.

kitten, the whole is list is a bunch of obvious reasons that the blending in really doesn't work, even though I think it is a pretty cool idea.

Yes and no. IH is bad for damage because it's clone-based damage. Your Phantasms gain Superspeed and the 0.75s evade when you IH, but that does nothing. It's like our Protected Phantasms, in that it's supposed to help but it ends up helping in all the wrong areas at the wrong times. Yes, on demand Cloak on Phants is powerful. No, it's not really usable. Why? We can barely dodge for ourselves in the current state of Mirage, choosing to dodge for attacking to dodge for movement already stretches our endurance pretty thin. Asking to dodge for Phant survival is pretty ridiculous. Sure, your clones now Ambush. When have you ever spawned a Clone for more damage without using a shatter?

Even if Ambushes were worth their slot with damage/utility, Infinite Horizons has to fight with a stat boost (300 Expertise) or a Stunbreak. One is fantastic for PvE and the other is fantastic for PvP. IH is awkward at best for both.

[zealex.9410]

@Pyroatheist.9031 said:

Action Camera

Functionality Fix

Pick one. Action camera hamstrings the playing capability for basically every build that isn't bomb/mortar engie. I know it's fun to use, but gw2 simply isn't built in a way that lets it be an effective way to play.

It doesnt hamstring power dps mesmer lol. And well, imo dh can work with it as well sinc ethey have 1 ground target.

[zealex.9410]

@Dondagora.9645 said:Anyone else feel it's strange that we get a dodge ability to perform actions uninterrupted, yet we've gained very few abilities that can take advantage of Mirage Cloak?

Argueably scepter and staff ambushes are that but he the spec it self doesnt have too much in terms of long casts. At least base mesmer has some.

[Esplen.3940]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Pyroatheist.9031 said:

Action Camera

Functionality Fix

Pick one. Action camera hamstrings the playing capability for basically every build that isn't bomb/mortar engie. I know it's fun to use, but gw2 simply isn't built in a way that lets it be an effective way to play.

It doesnt hamstring power dps mesmer lol. And well, imo dh can work with it as well sinc ethey have 1 ground target.

Actually it does. You need a target for Mantra of Power, Signet of Domination, and Signet of Humility. You need to ground target for Feedback. You need targets to cast Phantasms. The "added bonus" of being able to run in any direction only occurs if you haven't attacked for a while. Targeting in Action Camera for ground targets is annoying. Targeting enemies can be extremely annoying depending on the number of adds in the way, although if you get it done at the start, you can ignore. On other fights, like Samarog, Gorseval, or Deimos where you need to constantly re-target and quickly it can get out of hand.

[zealex.9410]

@Esplen.3940 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Pyroatheist.9031 said:

Action Camera

Functionality Fix

Pick one. Action camera hamstrings the playing capability for basically every build that isn't bomb/mortar engie. I know it's fun to use, but gw2 simply isn't built in a way that lets it be an effective way to play.

It doesnt hamstring power dps mesmer lol. And well, imo dh can work with it as well sinc ethey have 1 ground target.

Actually it does. You need a target for Mantra of Power, Signet of Domination, and Signet of Humility. You need to ground target for Feedback. You need targets to cast Phantasms. The "added bonus" of being able to run in any direction only occurs if you haven't attacked for a while. Targeting in Action Camera for ground targets is annoying. Targeting enemies can be extremely annoying depending on the number of adds in the way, although if you get it done at the start, you can ignore. On other fights, like Samarog, Gorseval, or Deimos where you need to constantly re-target and quickly it can get out of hand.

Action camera does have target function now? As for the feedback ill give you that but if its not like mattias when it happens isntantaniously then you got the time window to move back abit and cast it.

[Esplen.3940]

You could always target in Action Camera. Right click to target. It's not fluid, but it gets the job done.

For Samarog and Gorseval, sure you have a little bit of time where you can retarget and settle in. For Deimos, you're on a time-table similar to Matthias (and you can't just press tab). Saul and fake Sauls are important to take care of, and you have to retarget him a decent amount.

[zealex.9410]

@Esplen.3940 said:You could always target in Action Camera. Right click to target. It's not fluid, but it gets the job done.

For Samarog and Gorseval, sure you have a little bit of time where you can retarget and settle in. For Deimos, you're on a time-table similar to Matthias (and you can't just press tab). Saul and fake Sauls are important to take care of, and you have to retarget him a decent amount.

I mean neither the normal way its fluid if you try and click the target with a a fucktone of ppl on him. Id assume tab to target works during ac but eh.

Also retargeting on dps mesmer atm is a sad story. On other classes not so much. Really the biggest issue i can see with action camera is if you play something like a chrono where u have to cast groundtargets on you. And untargeted power thief maybe? With staff 2 or w/e

[Pyroatheist.9031]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Pyroatheist.9031 said:

Action Camera

Functionality Fix

Pick one. Action camera hamstrings the playing capability for basically every build that isn't bomb/mortar engie. I know it's fun to use, but gw2 simply isn't built in a way that lets it be an effective way to play.

It doesnt hamstring power dps mesmer lol. And well, imo dh can work with it as well sinc ethey have 1 ground target.

Rofl, you're arguing with me that action mode is totally a realistic solution for mirage dodge because power mesmer PvE builds are the most braindead builds in the game that require little to no effort?

I don't even know what to say. How about literally every other build? How about game modes that require more attention that the bare minimum that raids require? Just...wow. I'm honestly surprised that an argument this colossally ridiculous was made to me.

[zealex.9410]

@Pyroatheist.9031 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Pyroatheist.9031 said:

Action Camera

Functionality Fix

Pick one. Action camera hamstrings the playing capability for basically every build that isn't bomb/mortar engie. I know it's fun to use, but gw2 simply isn't built in a way that lets it be an effective way to play.

It doesnt hamstring power dps mesmer lol. And well, imo dh can work with it as well sinc ethey have 1 ground target.

Rofl, you're arguing with me that action mode is totally a realistic solution for mirage dodge because power mesmer PvE builds are the most braindead builds in the game that require little to no effort?

I don't even know what to say. How about literally every other build? How about game modes that require more attention that the bare minimum that raids require? Just...wow. I'm honestly surprised that an argument this colossally ridiculous was made to me.

Idk where u came up with all that i just said it doesnt do so for base power dps mesmer.

[Ithilwen.1529]

Well done on the research. I have a question of you: How did you measure movement speed?

[Dondagora.9645]

@Ithilwen.1529 said:Well done on the research. I have a question of you: How did you measure movement speed?

I think it's done using a simple timer and environment as measurement. In this case, he may have used the trees to mark where 300 range is, checked how far he moved in a certain amount of time under normal circumstances, and just compared that to the distance he moved with effects in the same amount of time.

[Zenith.7301]

My issue with mirage is:

1- Numbers. They're junk. It's a spec with zero utility that somehow puts out mediocre DPS. You can't have that. I know warriors are the class darlings so they get to both top support and be top tier DPS with condi Phalanx Strength zerker, but for mirage we could at least have a top tier DPS spec in mirage since it virtually offers NOTHING to the group. The damage output of the ambush skills is horrendously low compared to something like backstab or bounding dodge from daredevil.

2-Traits. They're also junk. Not a single throughput increasing trait in the adept tier, all shatter gimmicks that have no place in PvE. The minors suck as well, condi damage for a pitiful duration after a shatter? Come on, some classes like warrior get 20% condi duration increase permanently, what the hell. Riddle of Sand should not require shatter; it should apply confusion on every damn ambush.

The minor trait is terrible for PvE. WE WILL NEVER SHATTER IN PVE. WE WILL NEVER SHATTER IN PVE SO LONG AS YOU DON'T FIX SHATTERS AND PHANTASMS BEING OUR SUSTAINED DPS.

Stop designing this class with PvP gimmicks only. We've had this same conversation with chronomancer before, where shield phantasms had to be changed as well as some chronomancer traits.

On the master tier, only relevant PvE trait is Mirrored Axes. 20% recharge reduction on only 3 skills is inadequate, add condi duration increase or damage to the trait.

Then the seconds terrible minor. Superspeed on mirage cloak. Why? Why should a baseline feature to ameliorate a weak mechanic take up our minor trait slot? Change it. Successfully evading with mirage cloak now spawns a nearby mirror and using mirrors grants a 10% increased damage buff for 12-15 seconds (always angry lasts just as long).

Dune Cloak will be our one grandmaster used in PvE. It's fine, just fix sand shards collision and increase the bleeding stacks or consider adding 2 stacks of confusion on them.

We are sacrificing one of our core lines for an elite traitline that offers virtually no significant DPS throughput increases or PvE relevant utility.

More importantly, mirage offers no trait or mechanic support whatsoever for power builds. Why even bother giving power weapons ambushes (both of which are weak and useless in PvE as a 1/4 daze does nothing to a breakbar and does less damage than an autoattack, and greatsword is beyond description in how bad it is) if you're not going to support power builds at all via traits in the spec?

3- Deceptions. Only Crystal Sands will see some use in PvE, and it will still be mediocre since they are projectiles with collision, not proper aoe/cleave. The rest won't see the light of day in PvE as they have unreasonably high cooldowns for basically being inferior versions of manipulation skills that provide no throughput increase or group utility in PvE.

4- The shatters are still a useless mechanic in PvE so long as the fact that all our DPS is reliant on 3 phantasms up is not addressed. 5 years, and nothing has been done to make shatters (baseline ones, continuum split is another matter since it was also mitigated by chronophantasma) attractive in PvE.

[Esplen.3940]

@Dondagora.9645 said:

@Ithilwen.1529 said:Well done on the research. I have a question of you: How did you measure movement speed?

I think it's done using a simple timer and environment as measurement. In this case, he may have used the trees to mark where 300 range is, checked how far he moved in a certain amount of time under normal circumstances, and just compared that to the distance he moved with effects in the same amount of time.

/wiki movement speed for exact values paired with a foundation of how sidestepping and backpedaling work and interact with other mechanics (movespeed boosts).

As for Zenith:Numbers can be changed, mechanics probably won't be. Some traits may get overhauled, but for the most part what we see is what we're probably going to get for the near future. Crystal Sands is pretty bad, to be honest. It is finicky to get all 6 hits, and even if you do has really low damage (both condition and power). If you wanted a DPS boost, you'd just run Power Spike, even on a Condi build. This is only because of the unreliability. 6 confusion on a small cast time is not bad, but when you only get 2 or 3 and it's not even guaranteed, something's wrong.

[MailMail.6534]

Thanks for the really informative post. Your contributions here on the new forum are appreciated by me! :+1:

[Carighan.6758]

If action camera is the solution, I want my problem back please.

[Esplen.3940]

@Carighan.6758 said:If action camera is the solution, I want my problem back please.

Hahaha, nice. Action cam doesn't actually solve it due to the huge delay before you get free movement.

Also I doubt anything will get changed as the devs stated on the Guild Chat that we lose mobility in favor of having options.