Upcoming Balance Notes

[XenesisII.1540]

@Josiah.2967 said:I am a PVE player first and foremost. I am going to assume you were being sarcastic

Mesmer only viable tank.Mesmer dps benchmarks significantly above Necromancer.

Huh...

I'm a wvw player first, necros still have more viable builds in pvp than mesmer has, they're far from bottom of the barrel in pvp. Benchmarks mean nothing in pvp, and frankly ruins balance if you're going to just balance classes/specs to damage and not whatever else they bring. You look at big numbers, we have to look at the big picture.

[Josiah.2967]

@XenesisII.1540 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:I am a PVE player first and foremost. I am going to assume you were being sarcastic

Mesmer only viable tank.Mesmer dps benchmarks significantly above Necromancer.

Huh...

I'm a wvw player first, necros still have more viable builds in pvp than mesmer has, they're far from bottom of the barrel in pvp. Benchmarks mean nothing in pvp, and frankly ruins balance if you're going to just balance classes/specs to damage and not whatever else they bring. You look at big numbers, we have to look at the big picture.

That ruins things for PVE where the majority of players are, and the most money is made. Now that they separate PVE/PVP/WVW, their is no reason to avoid balancing PVE content. DPS balance is vital. The 30% + difference we have going on, is unacceptable.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:I never thought I would get so frustrated over a balance patch. This did nothing Arenanet said they were trying to accomplish for a Necromancer. It just makes the balance team look like liars or incompetent at best.

End game PVE:Worse DPS: Necro CheckWorse Support: Necro Check

I'll play with the words but necromancer's dps is "better" after patch, not worse. (hint: you want to write "worst" instead of "worse" and certainly not "worth")

WVW/PVP:Necro At The Bottom: Check

Thank you. You are correct. I meant worst, which is still accurate. English is not my native language, and I still find myself confused with certain words.

Except it's not accurate. Reaper can dance circles around Revenant PvE damage while being ridiculously easy to play and super tanky. Enough with the exaggerating.

[Dadnir.5038]

@"CutesySylveon.8290" said:Except it's not accurate. Reaper can dance circles around Revenant PvE damage while being ridiculously easy to play and super tanky. Enough with the exaggerating.

Imo no profession is easier to play than the other. And the necromancer is punished just as much as the other professions when he take a hit. Do you really think that having faster skills on shorter CD make the game harder? That's all there is to "complexe" rotations, more opportunities to use skills due to shorter CD. Thoretically this perceived complexity give more flexibility to the profession than the dull rotation where you just have to use your skills on CD. The only reason people feel it's "harder" is because they lack themself the rotation's mastery necessary to exploit the flexibility (in short a lack of player skill).

[CutesySylveon.8290]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"CutesySylveon.8290" said:Except it's not accurate. Reaper can dance circles around Revenant PvE damage while being ridiculously easy to play and super tanky. Enough with the exaggerating.

Imo no profession is easier to play than the other. And the necromancer is punished just as much as the other professions when he take a hit. Do you really think that having faster skills on shorter CD make the game harder? That's all there is to "complexe" rotations, more opportunities to use skills due to shorter CD. Thoretically this perceived complexity give more flexibility to the profession than the dull rotation where you just have to use your skills on CD. The only reason people feel it's "harder" is because they lack themself the rotation's mastery necessary to exploit the flexibility (in short a lack of player skill).

You can't try to simultaneously argue no class is harder than another and then say people lack skill to play certain classes because that class has a more difficult rotation, you're contradicting yourself.

And necromancer is in fact not punished as hard as other classes for being hit. They're naturally tanky and always have access to a second life bar on top of respectable damage with practically zero mechanical skill needed. That's not a bash on necro players, but the idea it's not an easier class to play vs something like Engineer or Ele is just ridiculous. Best example I can give of this is the person who convinced me to buy the game with him before HoT. I chose necro and he chose engi. Who do you think had an easier time with the game?

[Josiah.2967]

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:I never thought I would get so frustrated over a balance patch. This did nothing Arenanet said they were trying to accomplish for a Necromancer. It just makes the balance team look like liars or incompetent at best.

End game PVE:Worse DPS: Necro CheckWorse Support: Necro Check

I'll play with the words but necromancer's dps is "better" after patch, not worse. (hint: you want to write "worst" instead of "worse" and certainly not "worth")

WVW/PVP:Necro At The Bottom: Check

Thank you. You are correct. I meant worst, which is still accurate. English is not my native language, and I still find myself confused with certain words.

Except it's not accurate. Reaper can dance circles around Revenant PvE damage while being ridiculously easy to play and super tanky. Enough with the exaggerating.

Bechmarks and my own experience tell another story. I can easily out DPS my necromancer by a wide margin on my Guardian/Ranger. I find the Guardian way easier to raid with and perform perfectly with than the necromancer.

The meters also show that inexperienced Necro players do less dps and the gap is wider than Guardians. It is time the misconceived preconception dies.

[chris.6583]

suggestion about [Pyromancer's Puissance], fix it so it doesn't proc under 10 stacks of might so it doesn't mess up with [Power Overwhelming]also make Flame Expulsion hit your target instead of exploding around you, increase the radius or make it give you a charge similar to Static Charge, so you can control when to use it instead of wasting it accidentally; the might sharing effect can stay the same

[Jamie.8590]

Looks pretty juicy

[CutesySylveon.8290]

@Josiah.2967 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:I never thought I would get so frustrated over a balance patch. This did nothing Arenanet said they were trying to accomplish for a Necromancer. It just makes the balance team look like liars or incompetent at best.

End game PVE:Worse DPS: Necro CheckWorse Support: Necro Check

I'll play with the words but necromancer's dps is "better" after patch, not worse. (hint: you want to write "worst" instead of "worse" and certainly not "worth")

WVW/PVP:Necro At The Bottom: Check

Thank you. You are correct. I meant worst, which is still accurate. English is not my native language, and I still find myself confused with certain words.

Except it's not accurate. Reaper can dance circles around Revenant PvE damage while being ridiculously easy to play and super tanky. Enough with the exaggerating.

Bechmarks and my own experience tell another story. I can easily out DPS my necromancer by a wide margin on my Guardian/Ranger. I find the Guardian way easier to raid with and perform perfectly with than the necromancer.

The meters also show that inexperienced Necro players do less dps and the gap is wider than Guardians. It is time the misconceived preconception dies.

Why are you bringing up guardian and ranger? You said necro is the worst end game PvE damage and I pointed out revenant does far less, why would you bring up two different classes who do better dps than both necro and revenant?

Have you seen the reaper dps rotation? It's like 7 steps and one part is literally just AAing in shroud for a period of time. It's not only very easy, but does FAR more damage than revenant and is much more durable.

Your statement about being the worst in WvW is also laughably false. Reaper might end up being the optimal choice now but necro is still one of the best zerg classes to bring for bombs and boon rips. The only thing that needs to die is necro players thinking their class isn't strong because they think Anet has some sort of dilemma against them when in reality they've got an extremely solid role in pvp modes and are perfectly viable in instanced PvE and turn any open world stuff into a joke.

[Josiah.2967]

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:I never thought I would get so frustrated over a balance patch. This did nothing Arenanet said they were trying to accomplish for a Necromancer. It just makes the balance team look like liars or incompetent at best.

End game PVE:Worse DPS: Necro CheckWorse Support: Necro Check

I'll play with the words but necromancer's dps is "better" after patch, not worse. (hint: you want to write "worst" instead of "worse" and certainly not "worth")

WVW/PVP:Necro At The Bottom: Check

Thank you. You are correct. I meant worst, which is still accurate. English is not my native language, and I still find myself confused with certain words.

Except it's not accurate. Reaper can dance circles around Revenant PvE damage while being ridiculously easy to play and super tanky. Enough with the exaggerating.

Bechmarks and my own experience tell another story. I can easily out DPS my necromancer by a wide margin on my Guardian/Ranger. I find the Guardian way easier to raid with and perform perfectly with than the necromancer.

The meters also show that inexperienced Necro players do less dps and the gap is wider than Guardians. It is time the misconceived preconception dies.

Why are you bringing up guardian and ranger? You said necro is the worst end game PvE damage and I pointed out revenant does far less, why would you bring up two different classes who do better dps than both necro and revenant?

Have you seen the reaper dps rotation? It's like 7 steps and one part is literally just AAing in shroud for a period of time. It's not only very easy, but does FAR more damage than revenant and is much more durable.

Your statement about being the worst in WvW is also laughably false. Reaper might end up being the optimal choice now but necro is still one of the best zerg classes to bring for bombs and boon rips. The only thing that needs to die is necro players thinking their class isn't strong because they think Anet has some sort of dilemma against them when in reality they've got an extremely solid role in pvp modes and are perfectly viable in instanced PvE and turn any open world stuff into a joke.

Are you serious or trolling? Looks at benchmarks.

[Shiyo.3578]

@Josiah.2967 said:I never thought I would get so frustrated over a balance patch. This did nothing Arenanet said they were trying to accomplish for a Necromancer. It just makes the balance team look like liars or incompetent at best.

End game PVE:Worse DPS: Necro CheckWorse Support: Necro Check

WVW/PVP:Necro At The Bottom: Check

By the way....we are changing signets because nobody used them. Nerfing something to be sub par is never going to see use. Where is the hotfix buffs? This now is officially the worst balanced MMO I have played.

They said they wanted to buff condi thief in PvE, and it got literally 0% damage.They said they wanted to nerf soulbeast in PvE, and it lost, at most, 1% damage.

Who is not allowing these developers to actually do changes?

[Emberheart.8426]

@Josiah.2967 said:

@XenesisII.1540 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:I am a PVE player first and foremost. I am going to assume you were being sarcastic

Mesmer only viable tank.Mesmer dps benchmarks significantly above Necromancer.

Huh...

I'm a wvw player first, necros still have more viable builds in pvp than mesmer has, they're far from bottom of the barrel in pvp. Benchmarks mean nothing in pvp, and frankly ruins balance if you're going to just balance classes/specs to damage and not whatever else they bring. You look at big numbers, we have to look at the big picture.

That ruins things for PVE where the majority of players are, and the most money is made. Now that they separate PVE/PVP/WVW, their is no reason to avoid balancing PVE content. DPS balance is vital. The 30% + difference we have going on, is unacceptable.

This kind of post is pretty indicative of a huge blindspot that many players have when talking about balance. The argument that PvE dps balance matters more because more people play PvE is self-defeating. Just think about it for a few seconds. PvP and WvW are separate game modes and I'm sure that most can agree that their balance is not exactly the same. Now take that logic and apply it to PvE. You have 10-man content, 5-man content and open world. All of these are totally different. You want to balance dps around raids but also claim that PvE has the most players. Maybe open world has the most players, but raids have a much lower population compared to many game modes. So does this actually mean that reaper needs to get nerfed to the ground and elementalist needs to start getting huge buffs? Your justification simply does not apply. You can't claim that everyone plays PvE and then want balance for the least played part of PvE, which might actually be played less than even WvW.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Josiah.2967 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:I never thought I would get so frustrated over a balance patch. This did nothing Arenanet said they were trying to accomplish for a Necromancer. It just makes the balance team look like liars or incompetent at best.

End game PVE:Worse DPS: Necro CheckWorse Support: Necro Check

I'll play with the words but necromancer's dps is "better" after patch, not worse. (hint: you want to write "worst" instead of "worse" and certainly not "worth")

WVW/PVP:Necro At The Bottom: Check

Thank you. You are correct. I meant worst, which is still accurate. English is not my native language, and I still find myself confused with certain words.

Except it's not accurate. Reaper can dance circles around Revenant PvE damage while being ridiculously easy to play and super tanky. Enough with the exaggerating.

Bechmarks and my own experience tell another story. I can easily out DPS my necromancer by a wide margin on my Guardian/Ranger. I find the Guardian way easier to raid with and perform perfectly with than the necromancer.

The meters also show that inexperienced Necro players do less dps and the gap is wider than Guardians. It is time the misconceived preconception dies.

Why are you bringing up guardian and ranger? You said necro is the worst end game PvE damage and I pointed out revenant does far less, why would you bring up two different classes who do better dps than both necro and revenant?

Have you seen the reaper dps rotation? It's like 7 steps and one part is literally just AAing in shroud for a period of time. It's not only very easy, but does FAR more damage than revenant and is much more durable.

Your statement about being the worst in WvW is also laughably false. Reaper might end up being the optimal choice now but necro is still one of the best zerg classes to bring for bombs and boon rips. The only thing that needs to die is necro players thinking their class isn't strong because they think Anet has some sort of dilemma against them when in reality they've got an extremely solid role in pvp modes and are perfectly viable in instanced PvE and turn any open world stuff into a joke.

Are you serious or trolling? Looks at benchmarks.How are you even supposed to look at them?

Bring a 30k dps PvE raider and I assure you, I can kill it with a 3k dps WvW roamer.

Does that make it better or worse?

[Josiah.2967]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:I never thought I would get so frustrated over a balance patch. This did nothing Arenanet said they were trying to accomplish for a Necromancer. It just makes the balance team look like liars or incompetent at best.

End game PVE:Worse DPS: Necro CheckWorse Support: Necro Check

I'll play with the words but necromancer's dps is "better" after patch, not worse. (hint: you want to write "worst" instead of "worse" and certainly not "worth")

WVW/PVP:Necro At The Bottom: Check

Thank you. You are correct. I meant worst, which is still accurate. English is not my native language, and I still find myself confused with certain words.

Except it's not accurate. Reaper can dance circles around Revenant PvE damage while being ridiculously easy to play and super tanky. Enough with the exaggerating.

Bechmarks and my own experience tell another story. I can easily out DPS my necromancer by a wide margin on my Guardian/Ranger. I find the Guardian way easier to raid with and perform perfectly with than the necromancer.

The meters also show that inexperienced Necro players do less dps and the gap is wider than Guardians. It is time the misconceived preconception dies.

Why are you bringing up guardian and ranger? You said necro is the worst end game PvE damage and I pointed out revenant does far less, why would you bring up two different classes who do better dps than both necro and revenant?

Have you seen the reaper dps rotation? It's like 7 steps and one part is literally just AAing in shroud for a period of time. It's not only very easy, but does FAR more damage than revenant and is much more durable.

Your statement about being the worst in WvW is also laughably false. Reaper might end up being the optimal choice now but necro is still one of the best zerg classes to bring for bombs and boon rips. The only thing that needs to die is necro players thinking their class isn't strong because they think Anet has some sort of dilemma against them when in reality they've got an extremely solid role in pvp modes and are perfectly viable in instanced PvE and turn any open world stuff into a joke.

Are you serious or trolling? Looks at benchmarks.How are you even supposed to look at them?

Bring a 30k dps PvE raider and I assure you, I can kill it with a 3k dps WvW roamer.

Does that make it better or worse?

It coud mean anything. Maybe you are more skilled than them at pvp and killed them with a MEME build... PVE can be balances seperately so their is no excuse. All game types can now be balanced....

It was understandable when they did not make a distinction between the gaming modes. They opened pandoras box when they changed the direction.

They do need to stop neglecting their PVE audience. The current spread is unhealthy.

[Mini Crinny.6190]

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:I never thought I would get so frustrated over a balance patch. This did nothing Arenanet said they were trying to accomplish for a Necromancer. It just makes the balance team look like liars or incompetent at best.

End game PVE:Worse DPS: Necro CheckWorse Support: Necro Check

I'll play with the words but necromancer's dps is "better" after patch, not worse. (hint: you want to write "worst" instead of "worse" and certainly not "worth")

WVW/PVP:Necro At The Bottom: Check

Thank you. You are correct. I meant worst, which is still accurate. English is not my native language, and I still find myself confused with certain words.

Except it's not accurate. Reaper can dance circles around Revenant PvE damage while being ridiculously easy to play and super tanky. Enough with the exaggerating.

Bechmarks and my own experience tell another story. I can easily out DPS my necromancer by a wide margin on my Guardian/Ranger. I find the Guardian way easier to raid with and perform perfectly with than the necromancer.

The meters also show that inexperienced Necro players do less dps and the gap is wider than Guardians. It is time the misconceived preconception dies.

Why are you bringing up guardian and ranger? You said necro is the worst end game PvE damage and I pointed out revenant does far less, why would you bring up two different classes who do better dps than both necro and revenant?

Have you seen the reaper dps rotation? It's like 7 steps and one part is literally just AAing in shroud for a period of time. It's not only very easy, but does FAR more damage than revenant and is much more durable.

Your statement about being the worst in WvW is also laughably false. Reaper might end up being the optimal choice now but necro is still one of the best zerg classes to bring for bombs and boon rips. The only thing that needs to die is necro players thinking their class isn't strong because they think Anet has some sort of dilemma against them when in reality they've got an extremely solid role in pvp modes and are perfectly viable in instanced PvE and turn any open world stuff into a joke.

Are you serious or trolling? Looks at benchmarks.How are you even supposed to look at them?

Bring a 30k dps PvE raider and I assure you, I can kill it with a 3k dps WvW roamer.

Does that make it better or worse?

It coud mean anything. Maybe you are more skilled than them at pvp and killed them with a MEME build... PVE can be balances seperately so their is no excuse. All game types can now be balanced....

It was understandable when they did not make a distinction between the gaming modes. They opened pandoras box when they changed the direction.

They do need to stop neglecting their PVE audience. The current spread is unhealthy.

You say look at benchmarks, but I don't see any power chronos in raids, and Condi Weaver is also a very rare sight, Going by benchmarks alone is really not the way to balance classes as there is a chance to nerf classes that are barely used (Condi Weaver is a good example)

Also if you don't play WvW why would you say Necro is the worst in WvW? clearly shows bias towards Necro and thus makes whatever you say worthless since its clear you are biased.

[LinkSAG.4306]

The loss of life leech on necro wells means I'll probably stop using them. But then again my build wasn't even a consideration for most people so I guess it doesn't matter that much. Time to come up with a completely new necro build.

[Lily.1935]

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:I never thought I would get so frustrated over a balance patch. This did nothing Arenanet said they were trying to accomplish for a Necromancer. It just makes the balance team look like liars or incompetent at best.

End game PVE:Worse DPS: Necro CheckWorse Support: Necro Check

I'll play with the words but necromancer's dps is "better" after patch, not worse. (hint: you want to write "worst" instead of "worse" and certainly not "worth")

WVW/PVP:Necro At The Bottom: Check

Thank you. You are correct. I meant worst, which is still accurate. English is not my native language, and I still find myself confused with certain words.

Except it's not accurate. Reaper can dance circles around Revenant PvE damage while being ridiculously easy to play and super tanky. Enough with the exaggerating.

Bechmarks and my own experience tell another story. I can easily out DPS my necromancer by a wide margin on my Guardian/Ranger. I find the Guardian way easier to raid with and perform perfectly with than the necromancer.

The meters also show that inexperienced Necro players do less dps and the gap is wider than Guardians. It is time the misconceived preconception dies.

Why are you bringing up guardian and ranger? You said necro is the worst end game PvE damage and I pointed out revenant does far less, why would you bring up two different classes who do better dps than both necro and revenant?

Have you seen the reaper dps rotation? It's like 7 steps and one part is literally just AAing in shroud for a period of time. It's not only very easy, but does FAR more damage than revenant and is much more durable.

Your statement about being the worst in WvW is also laughably false. Reaper might end up being the optimal choice now but necro is still one of the best zerg classes to bring for bombs and boon rips. The only thing that needs to die is necro players thinking their class isn't strong because they think Anet has some sort of dilemma against them when in reality they've got an extremely solid role in pvp modes and are perfectly viable in instanced PvE and turn any open world stuff into a joke.

Are you serious or trolling? Looks at benchmarks.How are you even supposed to look at them?

Bring a 30k dps PvE raider and I assure you, I can kill it with a 3k dps WvW roamer.

Does that make it better or worse?

It coud mean anything. Maybe you are more skilled than them at pvp and killed them with a MEME build... PVE can be balances seperately so their is no excuse. All game types can now be balanced....

It was understandable when they did not make a distinction between the gaming modes. They opened pandoras box when they changed the direction.

They do need to stop neglecting their PVE audience. The current spread is unhealthy.

You say look at benchmarks, but I don't see any power chronos in raids, and Condi Weaver is also a very rare sight, Going by benchmarks alone is really not the way to balance classes as there is a chance to nerf classes that are barely used (Condi Weaver is a good example)

Also if you don't play WvW why would you say Necro is the worst in WvW? clearly shows bias towards Necro and thus makes whatever you say worthless since its clear you are biased.

Just raided with 4 power chronos last week. They're very much around. I also decided to try condi firebrand for the first time last week in raid wings I'm not very familiar with and I usually run Condi scourge. Let me tell you, Condi firebrand is 100% easier to play than condi scourge and so much better. I didn't even feel squishy playing it I actually felt pretty bulky even with the about 6.5k less health.

I have around 5k hours on my necromancer and Scourge has like probably close to 1.5k or 2k of those house. While Guardian I have like 500 hours and only maybe 50 of them are on firebrand. Scourge is pretty fickle to play. Wont say its the hardest build to run, but its a lot harder than people think. Oh, and inspite of what snowcrows says, Condi scourge is much harder to play than Support scourge.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

@Josiah.2967 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:I never thought I would get so frustrated over a balance patch. This did nothing Arenanet said they were trying to accomplish for a Necromancer. It just makes the balance team look like liars or incompetent at best.

End game PVE:Worse DPS: Necro CheckWorse Support: Necro Check

I'll play with the words but necromancer's dps is "better" after patch, not worse. (hint: you want to write "worst" instead of "worse" and certainly not "worth")

WVW/PVP:Necro At The Bottom: Check

Thank you. You are correct. I meant worst, which is still accurate. English is not my native language, and I still find myself confused with certain words.

Except it's not accurate. Reaper can dance circles around Revenant PvE damage while being ridiculously easy to play and super tanky. Enough with the exaggerating.

Bechmarks and my own experience tell another story. I can easily out DPS my necromancer by a wide margin on my Guardian/Ranger. I find the Guardian way easier to raid with and perform perfectly with than the necromancer.

The meters also show that inexperienced Necro players do less dps and the gap is wider than Guardians. It is time the misconceived preconception dies.

Why are you bringing up guardian and ranger? You said necro is the worst end game PvE damage and I pointed out revenant does far less, why would you bring up two different classes who do better dps than both necro and revenant?

Have you seen the reaper dps rotation? It's like 7 steps and one part is literally just AAing in shroud for a period of time. It's not only very easy, but does FAR more damage than revenant and is much more durable.

Your statement about being the worst in WvW is also laughably false. Reaper might end up being the optimal choice now but necro is still one of the best zerg classes to bring for bombs and boon rips. The only thing that needs to die is necro players thinking their class isn't strong because they think Anet has some sort of dilemma against them when in reality they've got an extremely solid role in pvp modes and are perfectly viable in instanced PvE and turn any open world stuff into a joke.

Are you serious or trolling? Looks at benchmarks.

The benchmarks that show reaper being an absolutely solid dps pick in PvE while being naturally tanky even in the high end PvE? Take a Reaper to any fractal group as a dps and you'll do just fine, nobody will kick you except for the meta humpers that try to run the absolute optimal builds and wipe over and over because they don't know what they're doing. I often get top DPS in fractals by spamming Reaper Shroud auto attack and spinning until I puke, all while safe from being one shot like the rest of my team.

In WvW, necros have been meta for years, even while scourge had single shades, you could just run reaper with Wells and rip more boons than anything except scourge while doing extremely solid damage. Trailblazer stats in WvW also mean condi core necro is an absolute nightmare to kill that can stall people endlessly or just win the war of attrition.

PvP is the same story. Extremely durable and dangerous except when focused because no blocks, tons of AoE and boon rip pressure, and Lich form is basically a free win button for any teamfight.

Necromancer isn't weak in any way right now, even in PvE. It trivializes even HoT content in glass stats and is by far one of the most beginner friendly classes with tons of ways to be useful, but necro players are still butthurt about pre-HoT erra when they were legit bad.

[Shiyo.3578]

Reaper is really bad in fractals. It's burst rotation never lines up with break bars correctly and is far far far below power DH/soul beast/weaver/holo/daredevil due to this.Reaper also isn't tanky, you do zero DPS if you tank damage in shroud.

[Black Storm.6974]

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:I never thought I would get so frustrated over a balance patch. This did nothing Arenanet said they were trying to accomplish for a Necromancer. It just makes the balance team look like liars or incompetent at best.

End game PVE:Worse DPS: Necro CheckWorse Support: Necro Check

I'll play with the words but necromancer's dps is "better" after patch, not worse. (hint: you want to write "worst" instead of "worse" and certainly not "worth")

WVW/PVP:Necro At The Bottom: Check

Thank you. You are correct. I meant worst, which is still accurate. English is not my native language, and I still find myself confused with certain words.

Except it's not accurate. Reaper can dance circles around Revenant PvE damage while being ridiculously easy to play and super tanky. Enough with the exaggerating.

Bechmarks and my own experience tell another story. I can easily out DPS my necromancer by a wide margin on my Guardian/Ranger. I find the Guardian way easier to raid with and perform perfectly with than the necromancer.

The meters also show that inexperienced Necro players do less dps and the gap is wider than Guardians. It is time the misconceived preconception dies.

Why are you bringing up guardian and ranger? You said necro is the worst end game PvE damage and I pointed out revenant does far less, why would you bring up two different classes who do better dps than both necro and revenant?

Have you seen the reaper dps rotation? It's like 7 steps and one part is literally just AAing in shroud for a period of time. It's not only very easy, but does FAR more damage than revenant and is much more durable.

Your statement about being the worst in WvW is also laughably false. Reaper might end up being the optimal choice now but necro is still one of the best zerg classes to bring for bombs and boon rips. The only thing that needs to die is necro players thinking their class isn't strong because they think Anet has some sort of dilemma against them when in reality they've got an extremely solid role in pvp modes and are perfectly viable in instanced PvE and turn any open world stuff into a joke.

Are you serious or trolling? Looks at benchmarks.

The benchmarks that show reaper being an absolutely solid dps pick in PvE while being naturally tanky even in the high end PvE? Take a Reaper to any fractal group as a dps and you'll do just fine, nobody will kick you except for the meta humpers that try to run the absolute optimal builds and wipe over and over because they don't know what they're doing. I often get top DPS in fractals by spamming Reaper Shroud auto attack and spinning until I puke, all while safe from being one shot like the rest of my team.

In WvW, necros have been meta for years, even while scourge had single shades, you could just run reaper with Wells and rip more boons than anything except scourge while doing extremely solid damage. Trailblazer stats in WvW also mean condi core necro is an absolute nightmare to kill that can stall people endlessly or just win the war of attrition.

PvP is the same story. Extremely durable and dangerous except when focused because no blocks, tons of AoE and boon rip pressure, and Lich form is basically a free win button for any teamfight.

Necromancer isn't weak in any way right now, even in PvE. It trivializes even HoT content in glass stats and is by far one of the most beginner friendly classes with tons of ways to be useful, but necro players are still kitten about pre-HoT erra when they were legit bad.

I agree that Reaper is not bad in PvE, it is quite good right now. I love its current strength.

Anyway what you said about benchmarks is wrong, the last benchmark shows a Reaper with a DPS that is only replicable on the idle golem, cause it seriously lack of Life Force generation and the rotation will never be executable in a real fight, in real fights you will have to use more skills that generate Life Force at the cost of DPS.Also, you still have to be very good at avoiding taking damage, to be playing in good groups, and to be fighting enemies that don’t do much unavoidable damage, otherwise the DPS will drop a lot. That means that Reaper can not do “high DPS” and also tank damage with Shroud, not with what is considered “META”, not with the build used to make benchmarks.

If you want to be able to tank some hits and still do high damage (less than benchmarks), you need to use a Signet build (at least Signets of Suffering, Signet of Undeath, Signet of Spite). In many encounters, in most groups, that’s optimal and very effective anyway.

High level Fractals are full of people who can’t maintain a decent DPS, that’s true for Reapers like for every other profession.

People saying that Reaper is imbalanced are wrong. Reaper is good if played well, adapting the build to the encounter and the group you play with. That is probably true for the other professions too.

[Black Storm.6974]

@Shiyo.3578 said:Reaper is really bad in fractals. It's burst rotation never lines up with break bars correctly and is far far far below power DH/soul beast/weaver/holo/daredevil due to this.Reaper also isn't tanky, you do zero DPS if you tank damage in shroud.

Everything in that comment is an exaggeration.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

@Black Storm.6974 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:I never thought I would get so frustrated over a balance patch. This did nothing Arenanet said they were trying to accomplish for a Necromancer. It just makes the balance team look like liars or incompetent at best.

End game PVE:Worse DPS: Necro CheckWorse Support: Necro Check

I'll play with the words but necromancer's dps is "better" after patch, not worse. (hint: you want to write "worst" instead of "worse" and certainly not "worth")

WVW/PVP:Necro At The Bottom: Check

Thank you. You are correct. I meant worst, which is still accurate. English is not my native language, and I still find myself confused with certain words.

Except it's not accurate. Reaper can dance circles around Revenant PvE damage while being ridiculously easy to play and super tanky. Enough with the exaggerating.

Bechmarks and my own experience tell another story. I can easily out DPS my necromancer by a wide margin on my Guardian/Ranger. I find the Guardian way easier to raid with and perform perfectly with than the necromancer.

The meters also show that inexperienced Necro players do less dps and the gap is wider than Guardians. It is time the misconceived preconception dies.

Why are you bringing up guardian and ranger? You said necro is the worst end game PvE damage and I pointed out revenant does far less, why would you bring up two different classes who do better dps than both necro and revenant?

Have you seen the reaper dps rotation? It's like 7 steps and one part is literally just AAing in shroud for a period of time. It's not only very easy, but does FAR more damage than revenant and is much more durable.

Your statement about being the worst in WvW is also laughably false. Reaper might end up being the optimal choice now but necro is still one of the best zerg classes to bring for bombs and boon rips. The only thing that needs to die is necro players thinking their class isn't strong because they think Anet has some sort of dilemma against them when in reality they've got an extremely solid role in pvp modes and are perfectly viable in instanced PvE and turn any open world stuff into a joke.

Are you serious or trolling? Looks at benchmarks.

The benchmarks that show reaper being an absolutely solid dps pick in PvE while being naturally tanky even in the high end PvE? Take a Reaper to any fractal group as a dps and you'll do just fine, nobody will kick you except for the meta humpers that try to run the absolute optimal builds and wipe over and over because they don't know what they're doing. I often get top DPS in fractals by spamming Reaper Shroud auto attack and spinning until I puke, all while safe from being one shot like the rest of my team.

In WvW, necros have been meta for years, even while scourge had single shades, you could just run reaper with Wells and rip more boons than anything except scourge while doing extremely solid damage. Trailblazer stats in WvW also mean condi core necro is an absolute nightmare to kill that can stall people endlessly or just win the war of attrition.

PvP is the same story. Extremely durable and dangerous except when focused because no blocks, tons of AoE and boon rip pressure, and Lich form is basically a free win button for any teamfight.

Necromancer isn't weak in any way right now, even in PvE. It trivializes even HoT content in glass stats and is by far one of the most beginner friendly classes with tons of ways to be useful, but necro players are still kitten about pre-HoT erra when they were legit bad.

I agree that Reaper is not bad in PvE, it is quite good right now. I love its current strength.

Anyway what you said about benchmarks is wrong, the last benchmark shows a Reaper with a DPS that is only replicable on the idle golem, cause it seriously lack of Life Force generation and the rotation will never be executable in a real fight, in real fights you will have to use more skills that generate Life Force at the cost of DPS.Also, you still have to be very good at avoiding taking damage, to be playing in good groups, and to be fighting enemies that don’t do much unavoidable damage, otherwise the DPS will drop a lot. That means that Reaper can not do “high DPS” and also tank damage with Shroud, not with what is considered “META”, not with the build used to make benchmarks.

If you want to be able to tank some hits and still do high damage (less than benchmarks), you need to use a Signet build (at least Signets of Suffering, Signet of Undeath, Signet of Spite). In many encounters, in most groups, that’s optimal and very effective anyway.

High level Fractals are full of people who can’t maintain a decent DPS, that’s true for Reapers like for every other profession.

People saying that Reaper is imbalanced are wrong. Reaper is good if played well, adapting the build to the encounter and the group you play with. That is probably true for the other professions too.

The thing about benchmark dps on idle golems is true for most specs, not just reaper. I don't even consider benchmarks for class viability because it's flawed and doesn't translate to actual fights, but people arguing reaper is bad in benchmarks are wrong even on that front. My CM group has a weaver that struggles to do anywhere near what her benchmark dps is because bosses move and any disruption in her rotation makes her dps plummet, and she relies on group support like stability and alacrity a lot more.

Yes, you can't tank hits and keep up you maximum dps, but dead dps is 0, which is what I'm getting at. Reaper is extremely forgiving in not only it's rotation but also player error with shroud. The Snowcrows build for reaper before latest patch did use a signet build with Signet of Spite and Vampirism with Well of Suffering and Corruption. Very high AoE dps with decent LF generation since the rotation includes two major LF generation skills, but you can literally just spam AA in shroud with Soul Spiral and do more burst dps than a lot of builds.

The main thing is that necro isn't struggling at all in PvE or PvP modes, and I'm just sick of necro players acting like Anet hates them or that their class sucks. It's as annoying as it is ridiculous.

[Black Storm.6974]

The main thing is that necro isn't struggling at all in PvE or PvP modes, and I'm just sick of necro players acting like Anet hates them or that their class sucks. It's as annoying as it is ridiculous.

I agree.Unfortunately there is still “some exclusion”, especially in Raids, but it mostly comes from player ignorance: often people make you feel like they are doing you a favour to take you if you play Reaper, it is just that they have an unrealistic vision of Reaper performance compared to other professions.

[Taril.8619]

Necro sucks in optimized PvE environments (I.e. Min/maxed raids) due to its low potential DPS compared to other classes and limited support options.

It however, is super easy to play in PvE making it easy to hit "Good enough" numbers, while there are many classes whom have higher capabilities, but their skill floor is much higher (Weaver, Deadeye, Chrono for example) meaning that your average pleb will often do better on Necro than other more "Meta" classes.

Necro is strong in PvP though was hit with the signet nerfs. In WvW, it's hard to evaluate, since it feels like there's a new Scourge nerf every 5 minutes after the ridonkulous buff to Shades...

Necro is amazing in open world PvE though and is "Okay" in dungeons/fractals due to having good burst, good cleave, mostly self sufficient boons (So you don't have to worry about "Do I have muh Firebrigade supports?") and the trash mobs assist with LF generation.

The class really only struggles in a very niche area that is relevant to like 0.01% of the total playerbase. Though, this can affect up to like 1% of the playerbase because people are idiots and take benchmarks as gospel...

Overall, there are classes that are in much worse positions.

[Black Storm.6974]

@"Taril.8619" said:Necro sucks in optimized PvE environments (I.e. Min/maxed raids) due to its low potential DPS compared to other classes and limited support options.

It however, is super easy to play in PvE making it easy to hit "Good enough" numbers, while there are many classes whom have higher capabilities, but their skill floor is much higher (Weaver, Deadeye, Chrono for example) meaning that your average pleb will often do better on Necro than other more "Meta" classes.

Necro is strong in PvP though was hit with the signet nerfs. In WvW, it's hard to evaluate, since it feels like there's a new Scourge nerf every 5 minutes after the ridonkulous buff to Shades...

Necro is amazing in open world PvE though and is "Okay" in dungeons/fractals due to having good burst, good cleave, mostly self sufficient boons (So you don't have to worry about "Do I have muh Firebrigade supports?") and the trash mobs assist with LF generation.

The class really only struggles in a very niche area that is relevant to like 0.01% of the total playerbase. Though, this can affect up to like 1% of the playerbase because people are idiots and take benchmarks as gospel...

Overall, there are classes that are in much worse positions.

I really liked that comment. I agree, mostly.