Perma Stealth + Portal is an issue I'd like to address.

Shiyo.3578 · July 5, 2020

It doesn't matter if thief is weak and useless in everything else, unfun things should simply not exist in games. Perma stealth, perma immob, etc are all super unfun to fight. I'd rather a class be useless than incredibly unfun to fight.

There is 100% a thing as perma stealth, equip p/d with shadow arts trait line and you can be stealthed forever.

DemonSeed.3528 · July 5, 2020

@Shiyo.3578 said:I'd rather a class be useless than incredibly unfun to fight.What if people find everything unfun to fight? Do we make everything useless? XD

melody.2601 · July 5, 2020

@DemonSeed.3528 said:
@Shiyo.3578 said:I'd rather a class be useless than incredibly unfun to fight.What if people find everything unfun to fight? Do we make everything useless? XD

Yes, please delete:Mesmer, not fun to fight against Clones.Thief, not fun to play against Stealth Class.Revenant, not fun play against Sustain + CC.Guardian, not fun to play against Sustain + CC, TrapHunters, High Boon Uptime, FireBrands.Necro, not fun to play against perma Fear, Condition Pressure, Area Denial, 50k Effective HP, leeching, OP downstate.Ranger, Perma Immob, OP downstate Heal, Sustain.

Engi, Warrior and Elementalist are probably fine.

melody.2601 · July 5, 2020

@Shiyo.3578 said:It doesn't matter if thief is weak and useless in everything else, unfun things should simply not exist in games. Perma stealth, perma immob, etc are all super unfun to fight. I'd rather a class be useless than incredibly unfun to fight.
There is 100% a thing as perma stealth, equip p/d with shadow arts trait line and you can be stealthed forever.
@Shiyo.3578 said:Thief main here. Perma stealth is a global game issue, and not just a WvW one.
The original design of stealth(or so I thought), and why it's usable in combat unlike other MMO's, is because you were only supposed to have limited amounts of stealth and never perma stealth. However, now after shadow art traitline buffs(why? no one wants to fight SA thieves) and some other changes over the past 5+ years stealth has gotten too easy and spammable on thief. You now can just perma stealth all over the place.
At this point, this game has the most overpowered stealth I've ever seen in the MMORPG genre. In most games, stealth can only be used out of combat(or on a long cooldown mid-combat), being hit removes you from stealth, and you can see the stealthed player if you get near them but has no duratio. GW2 however, does not have any of these disadvantages, and has advantages on top of having no disadvantages. It's absurd.
At this point, we might as well just have all the restrictions that most MMORPG's have for stealth, since it's basically perma while also being usable in combat which is crazy.
Please completely and utterly destroy the shadow arts tree and reduce the sources of stealth thief has, or make it so stealth cannot stack duration. Shadow Meld should absolutely not remove revealed, as counters to counters is bad game design. You should still nerf the shadow arts tree, though.

You pretty much revealed that you can't be a Thief Main at all, first of all P/D is the popular Condi Thief Weapon Set variant (mad cause bad?), and its only source of Stealth is 5 which requires a Target. You cant reliable "Perma Stealth" that way alone.

Perma Stealth even if it would be a thing is not a "global game issue" at all and here is why:PvE: You not going to use Shadow ArtsPvP: It is very much balanced around the role of the Thief which in the current Meta is +1 and Roaming, if you take away Shadow Arts you hit 2 of the 2 viable Builds out there, if you just nerf Condi, there is atleast still the Power Daredevil with D/P.WvW: Like I already mentioned, Thief already has nothing for them apart from the Portal and some Stealth Access.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_MeldThe PvP/WvW Variant has 2s Stealth, yes it removes revealed, still that skill is only available to Deadeye, why does that matter?Deadeye is aside from Core Thief the most fragile Version of Thief, Deadeye's design is based on Stealth Access to perform and survive.A Deadeye without Stealth Access is just a downed/dead Deadeye.

Also

@Shiyo.3578 said:Deadeye:This spec is essentially useless in every game mode but raids, but it's not even top DPS in raids while providing zero utility and being incredibly squishy.Deadeye is pretty trash open world unless you're p/p but you'd be better off just play daredevil.Source: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/108926/state-of-thief-in-pve

Rikit Runk.5170 · July 5, 2020

@wevh.2903 said:
@Mokk.2397 said:
@pninak.1069 said:use target painter traps. if you get him with one he is pretty much dead. and even if you don't get him you punish the next zerg capturing the keep by draining supplies.

Target painters? A Band Aid to fix a severed leg. Why should it be necessary to have to use a gimmick outside of existing reveals to deal with one class. NO OTHER CLASS REQUIRES THE PURCHASE OF SPECIAL EQUIPMENT FIGHT IT!!! The excessive stealth is servery busted so FIX IT !

Thieves has no other utility in the game mode since everyone can fast roam aroud the map with mount.

Than the question should be what other valuable utility can we give to a thief?But I hope we can all agree that having a mechanic in game that is only countered by special equipment and or a 1vs 25 situation is bad game design.

melody.2601 · July 5, 2020

@Rikit Runk.5170 said:
@wevh.2903 said:
@Mokk.2397 said:
@pninak.1069 said:use target painter traps. if you get him with one he is pretty much dead. and even if you don't get him you punish the next zerg capturing the keep by draining supplies.

Target painters? A Band Aid to fix a severed leg. Why should it be necessary to have to use a gimmick outside of existing reveals to deal with one class. NO OTHER CLASS REQUIRES THE PURCHASE OF SPECIAL EQUIPMENT FIGHT IT!!! The excessive stealth is servery busted so FIX IT !

Thieves has no other utility in the game mode since everyone can fast roam aroud the map with mount.

Than the question should be what other valuable utility can we give to a thief?But I hope we can all agree that having a mechanic in game that is only countered by special equipment and or a 1vs 25 situation is bad game design.

You do not need 25 ppl nor special equipment to track down a single Thief hiding somewhere, the question is more like, why would you wanna track it down in the first place.

Stuff get's flipped non-stop a single Thief with Portal will not be the reason you lose the week long battle, if that ever happens your World has a lot more problems going on.

Doug.4930 · July 5, 2020

@melody.2601 said:
@Rikit Runk.5170 said:
@wevh.2903 said:
@Mokk.2397 said:
@pninak.1069 said:use target painter traps. if you get him with one he is pretty much dead. and even if you don't get him you punish the next zerg capturing the keep by draining supplies.

Target painters? A Band Aid to fix a severed leg. Why should it be necessary to have to use a gimmick outside of existing reveals to deal with one class. NO OTHER CLASS REQUIRES THE PURCHASE OF SPECIAL EQUIPMENT FIGHT IT!!! The excessive stealth is servery busted so FIX IT !

Thieves has no other utility in the game mode since everyone can fast roam aroud the map with mount.

Than the question should be what other valuable utility can we give to a thief?But I hope we can all agree that having a mechanic in game that is only countered by special equipment and or a 1vs 25 situation is bad game design.

You do not need 25 ppl nor special equipment to track down a single Thief hiding somewhere, the question is more like, why would you wanna track it down in the first place.

Stuff get's flipped non-stop a single Thief with Portal will not be the reason you lose the week long battle, if that ever happens your World has a lot more problems going on.

A condi reverent that can't really lose 1v1's also wont be the difference between a server winning or losing the week long battle, that doesn't mean it isn't extremely broken OP.A thief hiding in a keep after its flipped deserves the cap if it can survive 5 minutes of marked.The only issue with Thief portal is when a zerg breaks into inner and is wiped by the defenders, however a thief manages to survive the carnage and perma stealth's in a corner. Now at this point a group of less than 10 do not catch that thief. Ever. Even with 10 people they actually need to be a decent group of 10, running preferably roaming builds with spike damage coupled with reveals/marked tricks. And thats all assuming the defenders realize a thief slipped by them. Hell when I do this, I usually start hiding the moment inner goes down. Defenders really have no way of knowing I'm there because sniff doesn't work on stealthed players. Assuming Sherlock Holmes is able to deduce a thief is inside through voice lines you still need to catch me. I have full nomads gear, with durability runes + double cleansing and double energy on my weapons. If I do hit a stealth trap for any reason I just jump on my speed kitten mount thats immune to crowd control and bounce around for 30 seconds before resuming my hiding.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the Idea of defenders actually having to sweep keeps again. But they need tools to make it fair. 10 players all working together with traps and tricks to hunt down a single player so that they don't teleport a map queue onto lords 10 mins after the defenders have left is overpowered.

@saerni.2584 said:
@Rikit Runk.5170 said:Hi there, on my world it's quite common to have a perma-stealth thief camping in your Keep, waiting to port some others in.And when said Thief is somewhat decent,it's almost impossible to remove him from your keep even when you hunt him with multiple people.
To address this problem without nerving the thief to the ground I suggest a new mechanic that gets applied to you, when you're within an enemy Keep.This could be visualized with something similar to a breakbar.The Bar starts at it maxiumum value of 300 (seconds_allowed_in_stealth
10)each second in stealth deals 15 (10 + [Heal / second]) points of damage to it.But each second the Bar gets healed for 5(Seconds_allowed_in_stealth
10 / Time_Frame) PointsWhenever the Bar drops to zero you get revealed.
so you can either spend your full 30 seconds in stealth and burn your bar to zero and have only little access to stealth for the next seconds or you only briefly stealth every now and then but you'll be able to maintain your stealth-bar for extended periods of time.By doing so the thief can still use stealth to gain access to his strong stealth attacks and stealth related traits, but he'll have a harder time to reset the fight completely and hide in some corner. Giving his opponents a fighting chance.
I believe this is a somewhat fair solution for all sides. It's not impossible to hide in keeps, but you have to put alot of work in, if you've been discovered to stay there.Opposed to the current situation where the thief needs to kitten up is rotation before he can get punished for it.

What server matchup is that? I never see anything like this.

Last reset night in tier 1, fire keep. Usually the desert BL is the best to do this, because the garri and fire keep have huge inner's. My zerg breaks down the inner wall, the server that shall not be named's map queue ports in and wipes them, I wait 10 mins for them to leave and then teleport 30 people onto the lord with the help of a guildy mesmer. Lord is at 30% before swords trigger, EWP is down, GG rip T3 keep. I'm then free to roam that map without the oppression of way points everywhere.

saerni.2584 · July 5, 2020

@Doug.4930 said:
@melody.2601 said:
@Rikit Runk.5170 said:
@wevh.2903 said:
@Mokk.2397 said:
@pninak.1069 said:use target painter traps. if you get him with one he is pretty much dead. and even if you don't get him you punish the next zerg capturing the keep by draining supplies.

Target painters? A Band Aid to fix a severed leg. Why should it be necessary to have to use a gimmick outside of existing reveals to deal with one class. NO OTHER CLASS REQUIRES THE PURCHASE OF SPECIAL EQUIPMENT FIGHT IT!!! The excessive stealth is servery busted so FIX IT !

Thieves has no other utility in the game mode since everyone can fast roam aroud the map with mount.

Than the question should be what other valuable utility can we give to a thief?But I hope we can all agree that having a mechanic in game that is only countered by special equipment and or a 1vs 25 situation is bad game design.

You do not need 25 ppl nor special equipment to track down a single Thief hiding somewhere, the question is more like, why would you wanna track it down in the first place.

Stuff get's flipped non-stop a single Thief with Portal will not be the reason you lose the week long battle, if that ever happens your World has a lot more problems going on.

A condi reverent that can't really lose 1v1's also wont be the difference between a server winning or losing the week long battle, that doesn't mean it isn't extremely broken OP.A thief hiding in a keep after its flipped deserves the cap if it can survive 5 minutes of marked.The only issue with Thief portal is when a zerg breaks into inner and is wiped by the defenders, however a thief manages to survive the carnage and perma stealth's in a corner. Now at this point a group of less than 10 do not catch that thief. Ever. Even with 10 people they actually need to be a decent group of 10, running preferably roaming builds with spike damage coupled with reveals/marked tricks. And thats all assuming the defenders realize a thief slipped by them. Hell when I do this, I usually start hiding the moment inner goes down. Defenders really have no way of knowing I'm there because sniff doesn't work on stealthed players. Assuming Sherlock Holmes is able to deduce a thief is inside through voice lines you still need to catch me. I have full nomads gear, with durability runes + double cleansing and double energy on my weapons. If I do hit a stealth trap for any reason I just jump on my speed kitten mount thats immune to crowd control and bounce around for 30 seconds before resuming my hiding.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the Idea of defenders actually having to sweep keeps again. But they need tools to make it fair. 10 players all working together with traps and tricks to hunt down a single player so that they don't teleport a map queue onto lords 10 mins after the defenders have left is overpowered.

@saerni.2584 said:
@Rikit Runk.5170 said:Hi there, on my world it's quite common to have a perma-stealth thief camping in your Keep, waiting to port some others in.And when said Thief is somewhat decent,it's almost impossible to remove him from your keep even when you hunt him with multiple people.
To address this problem without nerving the thief to the ground I suggest a new mechanic that gets applied to you, when you're within an enemy Keep.This could be visualized with something similar to a breakbar.The Bar starts at it maxiumum value of 300 (seconds_allowed_in_stealth
10)each second in stealth deals 15 (10 + [Heal / second]) points of damage to it.But each second the Bar gets healed for 5(Seconds_allowed_in_stealth
10 / Time_Frame) PointsWhenever the Bar drops to zero you get revealed.
so you can either spend your full 30 seconds in stealth and burn your bar to zero and have only little access to stealth for the next seconds or you only briefly stealth every now and then but you'll be able to maintain your stealth-bar for extended periods of time.By doing so the thief can still use stealth to gain access to his strong stealth attacks and stealth related traits, but he'll have a harder time to reset the fight completely and hide in some corner. Giving his opponents a fighting chance.
I believe this is a somewhat fair solution for all sides. It's not impossible to hide in keeps, but you have to put alot of work in, if you've been discovered to stay there.Opposed to the current situation where the thief needs to kitten up is rotation before he can get punished for it.

What server matchup is that? I never see anything like this.

Last reset night in tier 1, fire keep. Usually the desert BL is the best to do this, because the garri and fire keep have huge inner's. My zerg breaks down the inner wall, the server that shall not be named's map queue ports in and wipes them, I wait 10 mins for them to leave and then teleport 30 people onto the lord with the help of a guildy mesmer. Lord is at 30% before swords trigger, EWP is down, GG rip T3 keep. I'm then free to roam that map without the oppression of way points everywhere.

I’m confused. It was reset but the keep was T3? And then the server not-to-be-named didn’t have people in their T3 keeping an eye out 10 minutes after 30+ people broke into inner?

When we (NSP) tried the exact same thing In T1 they had at least 3 people hanging around keeping an eye out for a returning Zerg.

Caedmon.6798 · July 5, 2020

@Doug.4930 said:
@melody.2601 said:
@Rikit Runk.5170 said:
@wevh.2903 said:
@Mokk.2397 said:
@pninak.1069 said:use target painter traps. if you get him with one he is pretty much dead. and even if you don't get him you punish the next zerg capturing the keep by draining supplies.

Target painters? A Band Aid to fix a severed leg. Why should it be necessary to have to use a gimmick outside of existing reveals to deal with one class. NO OTHER CLASS REQUIRES THE PURCHASE OF SPECIAL EQUIPMENT FIGHT IT!!! The excessive stealth is servery busted so FIX IT !

Thieves has no other utility in the game mode since everyone can fast roam aroud the map with mount.

Than the question should be what other valuable utility can we give to a thief?But I hope we can all agree that having a mechanic in game that is only countered by special equipment and or a 1vs 25 situation is bad game design.

You do not need 25 ppl nor special equipment to track down a single Thief hiding somewhere, the question is more like, why would you wanna track it down in the first place.

Stuff get's flipped non-stop a single Thief with Portal will not be the reason you lose the week long battle, if that ever happens your World has a lot more problems going on.

A condi reverent that can't really lose 1v1's also wont be the difference between a server winning or losing the week long battle, that doesn't mean it isn't extremely broken OP.A thief hiding in a keep after its flipped deserves the cap if it can survive 5 minutes of marked.The only issue with Thief portal is when a zerg breaks into inner and is wiped by the defenders, however a thief manages to survive the carnage and perma stealth's in a corner. Now at this point a group of less than 10 do not catch that thief. Ever. Even with 10 people they actually need to be a decent group of 10, running preferably roaming builds with spike damage coupled with reveals/marked tricks. And thats all assuming the defenders realize a thief slipped by them. Hell when I do this, I usually start hiding the moment inner goes down. Defenders really have no way of knowing I'm there because sniff doesn't work on stealthed players. Assuming Sherlock Holmes is able to deduce a thief is inside through voice lines you still need to catch me. I have full nomads gear, with durability runes + double cleansing and double energy on my weapons. If I do hit a stealth trap for any reason I just jump on my speed kitten mount thats immune to crowd control and bounce around for 30 seconds before resuming my hiding.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the Idea of defenders actually having to sweep keeps again. But they need tools to make it fair. 10 players all working together with traps and tricks to hunt down a single player so that they don't teleport a map queue onto lords 10 mins after the defenders have left is overpowered.

@saerni.2584 said:
@Rikit Runk.5170 said:Hi there, on my world it's quite common to have a perma-stealth thief camping in your Keep, waiting to port some others in.And when said Thief is somewhat decent,it's almost impossible to remove him from your keep even when you hunt him with multiple people.
To address this problem without nerving the thief to the ground I suggest a new mechanic that gets applied to you, when you're within an enemy Keep.This could be visualized with something similar to a breakbar.The Bar starts at it maxiumum value of 300 (seconds_allowed_in_stealth
10)each second in stealth deals 15 (10 + [Heal / second]) points of damage to it.But each second the Bar gets healed for 5(Seconds_allowed_in_stealth
10 / Time_Frame) PointsWhenever the Bar drops to zero you get revealed.
so you can either spend your full 30 seconds in stealth and burn your bar to zero and have only little access to stealth for the next seconds or you only briefly stealth every now and then but you'll be able to maintain your stealth-bar for extended periods of time.By doing so the thief can still use stealth to gain access to his strong stealth attacks and stealth related traits, but he'll have a harder time to reset the fight completely and hide in some corner. Giving his opponents a fighting chance.
I believe this is a somewhat fair solution for all sides. It's not impossible to hide in keeps, but you have to put alot of work in, if you've been discovered to stay there.Opposed to the current situation where the thief needs to kitten up is rotation before he can get punished for it.

What server matchup is that? I never see anything like this.

Last reset night in tier 1, fire keep. Usually the desert BL is the best to do this, because the garri and fire keep have huge inner's. My zerg breaks down the inner wall, the server that shall not be named's map queue ports in and wipes them, I wait 10 mins for them to leave and then teleport 30 people onto the lord with the help of a guildy mesmer. Lord is at 30% before swords trigger, EWP is down, GG rip T3 keep. I'm then free to roam that map without the oppression of way points everywhere.

Cool story but, i had the same issue last night where a thief was hiding in fire keep after they broke in. He died in about 2 minutes because me and 2 others put down a few stealth traps,he hit them and he died. Its as simple as that. All you need is using your eyes and having some awareness.

Sviel.7493 · July 5, 2020

While I'm not thrilled about your proposed solution, I agree that the current state of this 'mechanic' is hilariously terrible.

Even if your zerg sweeps the keep and several people place traps, it's still far too easy for a perma-stealth class to evade detection considering how monumental the pay-off for success is. Those saying to simply use the tools at your disposal are, to be blunt, not all that bright or trolling.

Doug.4930 · July 6, 2020

@saerni.2584 said:
@Doug.4930 said:
@melody.2601 said:
@Rikit Runk.5170 said:
@wevh.2903 said:
@Mokk.2397 said:
@pninak.1069 said:use target painter traps. if you get him with one he is pretty much dead. and even if you don't get him you punish the next zerg capturing the keep by draining supplies.

Target painters? A Band Aid to fix a severed leg. Why should it be necessary to have to use a gimmick outside of existing reveals to deal with one class. NO OTHER CLASS REQUIRES THE PURCHASE OF SPECIAL EQUIPMENT FIGHT IT!!! The excessive stealth is servery busted so FIX IT !

Thieves has no other utility in the game mode since everyone can fast roam aroud the map with mount.

Than the question should be what other valuable utility can we give to a thief?But I hope we can all agree that having a mechanic in game that is only countered by special equipment and or a 1vs 25 situation is bad game design.

You do not need 25 ppl nor special equipment to track down a single Thief hiding somewhere, the question is more like, why would you wanna track it down in the first place.

Stuff get's flipped non-stop a single Thief with Portal will not be the reason you lose the week long battle, if that ever happens your World has a lot more problems going on.

A condi reverent that can't really lose 1v1's also wont be the difference between a server winning or losing the week long battle, that doesn't mean it isn't extremely broken OP.A thief hiding in a keep after its flipped deserves the cap if it can survive 5 minutes of marked.The only issue with Thief portal is when a zerg breaks into inner and is wiped by the defenders, however a thief manages to survive the carnage and perma stealth's in a corner. Now at this point a group of less than 10 do not catch that thief. Ever. Even with 10 people they actually need to be a decent group of 10, running preferably roaming builds with spike damage coupled with reveals/marked tricks. And thats all assuming the defenders realize a thief slipped by them. Hell when I do this, I usually start hiding the moment inner goes down. Defenders really have no way of knowing I'm there because sniff doesn't work on stealthed players. Assuming Sherlock Holmes is able to deduce a thief is inside through voice lines you still need to catch me. I have full nomads gear, with durability runes + double cleansing and double energy on my weapons. If I do hit a stealth trap for any reason I just jump on my speed kitten mount thats immune to crowd control and bounce around for 30 seconds before resuming my hiding.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the Idea of defenders actually having to sweep keeps again. But they need tools to make it fair. 10 players all working together with traps and tricks to hunt down a single player so that they don't teleport a map queue onto lords 10 mins after the defenders have left is overpowered.

@saerni.2584 said:
@Rikit Runk.5170 said:Hi there, on my world it's quite common to have a perma-stealth thief camping in your Keep, waiting to port some others in.And when said Thief is somewhat decent,it's almost impossible to remove him from your keep even when you hunt him with multiple people.
To address this problem without nerving the thief to the ground I suggest a new mechanic that gets applied to you, when you're within an enemy Keep.This could be visualized with something similar to a breakbar.The Bar starts at it maxiumum value of 300 (seconds_allowed_in_stealth
10)each second in stealth deals 15 (10 + [Heal / second]) points of damage to it.But each second the Bar gets healed for 5(Seconds_allowed_in_stealth
10 / Time_Frame) PointsWhenever the Bar drops to zero you get revealed.
so you can either spend your full 30 seconds in stealth and burn your bar to zero and have only little access to stealth for the next seconds or you only briefly stealth every now and then but you'll be able to maintain your stealth-bar for extended periods of time.By doing so the thief can still use stealth to gain access to his strong stealth attacks and stealth related traits, but he'll have a harder time to reset the fight completely and hide in some corner. Giving his opponents a fighting chance.
I believe this is a somewhat fair solution for all sides. It's not impossible to hide in keeps, but you have to put alot of work in, if you've been discovered to stay there.Opposed to the current situation where the thief needs to kitten up is rotation before he can get punished for it.

What server matchup is that? I never see anything like this.

Last reset night in tier 1, fire keep. Usually the desert BL is the best to do this, because the garri and fire keep have huge inner's. My zerg breaks down the inner wall, the server that shall not be named's map queue ports in and wipes them, I wait 10 mins for them to leave and then teleport 30 people onto the lord with the help of a guildy mesmer. Lord is at 30% before swords trigger, EWP is down, GG rip T3 keep. I'm then free to roam that map without the oppression of way points everywhere.

I’m confused. It was reset but the keep was T3? And then the server not-to-be-named didn’t have people in their T3 keeping an eye out 10 minutes after 30+ people broke into inner?

When we (NSP) tried the exact same thing In T1 they had at least 3 people hanging around keeping an eye out for a returning Zerg.

I should have clarified, I'm in the OCX timezone, so reset night for me is actually 12 hours into the match up. Saturday night.

There were a couple of scouts in the keep, but seeing as I teleported our zerg past inner and with a direct route to the lord, the reinforcements they no doubt called for had no chance of way pointing to spawn and traversing the map before my zerg had melted the lord. Because as I mentioned earlier the ewp was pulled to repel the initial attack. Whilst if my zerg was forced to build seige and brute force 2 walls/gates down the scouts would have plenty of time to call us out and get some bodies in the keep. Not so much when we're on the lord before they realize whats happened.

@Caedmon.6798 said:
@Doug.4930 said:
@melody.2601 said:
@Rikit Runk.5170 said:
@wevh.2903 said:
@Mokk.2397 said:
@pninak.1069 said:use target painter traps. if you get him with one he is pretty much dead. and even if you don't get him you punish the next zerg capturing the keep by draining supplies.

Target painters? A Band Aid to fix a severed leg. Why should it be necessary to have to use a gimmick outside of existing reveals to deal with one class. NO OTHER CLASS REQUIRES THE PURCHASE OF SPECIAL EQUIPMENT FIGHT IT!!! The excessive stealth is servery busted so FIX IT !

Thieves has no other utility in the game mode since everyone can fast roam aroud the map with mount.

Than the question should be what other valuable utility can we give to a thief?But I hope we can all agree that having a mechanic in game that is only countered by special equipment and or a 1vs 25 situation is bad game design.

You do not need 25 ppl nor special equipment to track down a single Thief hiding somewhere, the question is more like, why would you wanna track it down in the first place.

Stuff get's flipped non-stop a single Thief with Portal will not be the reason you lose the week long battle, if that ever happens your World has a lot more problems going on.

A condi reverent that can't really lose 1v1's also wont be the difference between a server winning or losing the week long battle, that doesn't mean it isn't extremely broken OP.A thief hiding in a keep after its flipped deserves the cap if it can survive 5 minutes of marked.The only issue with Thief portal is when a zerg breaks into inner and is wiped by the defenders, however a thief manages to survive the carnage and perma stealth's in a corner. Now at this point a group of less than 10 do not catch that thief. Ever. Even with 10 people they actually need to be a decent group of 10, running preferably roaming builds with spike damage coupled with reveals/marked tricks. And thats all assuming the defenders realize a thief slipped by them. Hell when I do this, I usually start hiding the moment inner goes down. Defenders really have no way of knowing I'm there because sniff doesn't work on stealthed players. Assuming Sherlock Holmes is able to deduce a thief is inside through voice lines you still need to catch me. I have full nomads gear, with durability runes + double cleansing and double energy on my weapons. If I do hit a stealth trap for any reason I just jump on my speed kitten mount thats immune to crowd control and bounce around for 30 seconds before resuming my hiding.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the Idea of defenders actually having to sweep keeps again. But they need tools to make it fair. 10 players all working together with traps and tricks to hunt down a single player so that they don't teleport a map queue onto lords 10 mins after the defenders have left is overpowered.

@saerni.2584 said:
@Rikit Runk.5170 said:Hi there, on my world it's quite common to have a perma-stealth thief camping in your Keep, waiting to port some others in.And when said Thief is somewhat decent,it's almost impossible to remove him from your keep even when you hunt him with multiple people.
To address this problem without nerving the thief to the ground I suggest a new mechanic that gets applied to you, when you're within an enemy Keep.This could be visualized with something similar to a breakbar.The Bar starts at it maxiumum value of 300 (seconds_allowed_in_stealth
10)each second in stealth deals 15 (10 + [Heal / second]) points of damage to it.But each second the Bar gets healed for 5(Seconds_allowed_in_stealth
10 / Time_Frame) PointsWhenever the Bar drops to zero you get revealed.
so you can either spend your full 30 seconds in stealth and burn your bar to zero and have only little access to stealth for the next seconds or you only briefly stealth every now and then but you'll be able to maintain your stealth-bar for extended periods of time.By doing so the thief can still use stealth to gain access to his strong stealth attacks and stealth related traits, but he'll have a harder time to reset the fight completely and hide in some corner. Giving his opponents a fighting chance.
I believe this is a somewhat fair solution for all sides. It's not impossible to hide in keeps, but you have to put alot of work in, if you've been discovered to stay there.Opposed to the current situation where the thief needs to kitten up is rotation before he can get punished for it.

What server matchup is that? I never see anything like this.

Last reset night in tier 1, fire keep. Usually the desert BL is the best to do this, because the garri and fire keep have huge inner's. My zerg breaks down the inner wall, the server that shall not be named's map queue ports in and wipes them, I wait 10 mins for them to leave and then teleport 30 people onto the lord with the help of a guildy mesmer. Lord is at 30% before swords trigger, EWP is down, GG rip T3 keep. I'm then free to roam that map without the oppression of way points everywhere.

Cool story but, i had the same issue last night where a thief was hiding in fire keep after they broke in. He died in about 2 minutes because me and 2 others put down a few stealth traps,he hit them and he died. Its as simple as that. All you need is using your eyes and having some awareness.

You seem to think I'm debating my points from the eyes of the victim. I assure you that I am the one abusing this mechanic. 2 players are never going to kill me unless I mess up real bad, or they catch me as I'm in the bathroom. I don't care how many stealth traps they lay down. I just jump on my mount for the remainder of the marked, or I swap to a run away build (which I can literally swap to with 2 clicks) thats speced into acro and daredevil with double shortbow/double energy/double cleansing. I guarantee you that anything less than 10 players does not catch me. Either Im permastealthing, or im fleeing on a runaway daredevil. With full nomads on each build.

I assume that the thief that you killed was a very inexperienced player.

T G.7496 · July 6, 2020

The thing is, like a lot of solo stealth situations, it's fun for exactly one player.For everyone else, at best, it's boring. Actually, it's usually annoying.

And it's win-win for the thief. They either get off on the thrill of being hunted and the knowledge that they have single handedly wasted the time of maybe 50 players before being caught, or they avoid detection and portal in their buddies to immediately backflip at almost no cost; again undermining the efforts of maybe 50 players. As a win-win for the thief it's a no-risk high-reward gameplay. Bad design. Fuels resentment. And the people who like playing thieves especially love that.

You lost the fight, now fuck off for bit while we clear your seige and move onto the next fight. Why should we all have to run around for 5 more fkn minutes, for his entertainment, trying to find one beevis or butthead? Interesting mechanics? Good, fun game design? Nah.

saerni.2584 · July 6, 2020

@Doug.4930 said:
@saerni.2584 said:
@Doug.4930 said:
@melody.2601 said:
@Rikit Runk.5170 said:
@wevh.2903 said:
@Mokk.2397 said:
@pninak.1069 said:use target painter traps. if you get him with one he is pretty much dead. and even if you don't get him you punish the next zerg capturing the keep by draining supplies.

Target painters? A Band Aid to fix a severed leg. Why should it be necessary to have to use a gimmick outside of existing reveals to deal with one class. NO OTHER CLASS REQUIRES THE PURCHASE OF SPECIAL EQUIPMENT FIGHT IT!!! The excessive stealth is servery busted so FIX IT !

Thieves has no other utility in the game mode since everyone can fast roam aroud the map with mount.

Than the question should be what other valuable utility can we give to a thief?But I hope we can all agree that having a mechanic in game that is only countered by special equipment and or a 1vs 25 situation is bad game design.

You do not need 25 ppl nor special equipment to track down a single Thief hiding somewhere, the question is more like, why would you wanna track it down in the first place.

Stuff get's flipped non-stop a single Thief with Portal will not be the reason you lose the week long battle, if that ever happens your World has a lot more problems going on.

A condi reverent that can't really lose 1v1's also wont be the difference between a server winning or losing the week long battle, that doesn't mean it isn't extremely broken OP.A thief hiding in a keep after its flipped deserves the cap if it can survive 5 minutes of marked.The only issue with Thief portal is when a zerg breaks into inner and is wiped by the defenders, however a thief manages to survive the carnage and perma stealth's in a corner. Now at this point a group of less than 10 do not catch that thief. Ever. Even with 10 people they actually need to be a decent group of 10, running preferably roaming builds with spike damage coupled with reveals/marked tricks. And thats all assuming the defenders realize a thief slipped by them. Hell when I do this, I usually start hiding the moment inner goes down. Defenders really have no way of knowing I'm there because sniff doesn't work on stealthed players. Assuming Sherlock Holmes is able to deduce a thief is inside through voice lines you still need to catch me. I have full nomads gear, with durability runes + double cleansing and double energy on my weapons. If I do hit a stealth trap for any reason I just jump on my speed kitten mount thats immune to crowd control and bounce around for 30 seconds before resuming my hiding.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the Idea of defenders actually having to sweep keeps again. But they need tools to make it fair. 10 players all working together with traps and tricks to hunt down a single player so that they don't teleport a map queue onto lords 10 mins after the defenders have left is overpowered.

@saerni.2584 said:
@Rikit Runk.5170 said:Hi there, on my world it's quite common to have a perma-stealth thief camping in your Keep, waiting to port some others in.And when said Thief is somewhat decent,it's almost impossible to remove him from your keep even when you hunt him with multiple people.
To address this problem without nerving the thief to the ground I suggest a new mechanic that gets applied to you, when you're within an enemy Keep.This could be visualized with something similar to a breakbar.The Bar starts at it maxiumum value of 300 (seconds_allowed_in_stealth
10)each second in stealth deals 15 (10 + [Heal / second]) points of damage to it.But each second the Bar gets healed for 5(Seconds_allowed_in_stealth
10 / Time_Frame) PointsWhenever the Bar drops to zero you get revealed.
so you can either spend your full 30 seconds in stealth and burn your bar to zero and have only little access to stealth for the next seconds or you only briefly stealth every now and then but you'll be able to maintain your stealth-bar for extended periods of time.By doing so the thief can still use stealth to gain access to his strong stealth attacks and stealth related traits, but he'll have a harder time to reset the fight completely and hide in some corner. Giving his opponents a fighting chance.
I believe this is a somewhat fair solution for all sides. It's not impossible to hide in keeps, but you have to put alot of work in, if you've been discovered to stay there.Opposed to the current situation where the thief needs to kitten up is rotation before he can get punished for it.

What server matchup is that? I never see anything like this.

Last reset night in tier 1, fire keep. Usually the desert BL is the best to do this, because the garri and fire keep have huge inner's. My zerg breaks down the inner wall, the server that shall not be named's map queue ports in and wipes them, I wait 10 mins for them to leave and then teleport 30 people onto the lord with the help of a guildy mesmer. Lord is at 30% before swords trigger, EWP is down, GG rip T3 keep. I'm then free to roam that map without the oppression of way points everywhere.

I’m confused. It was reset but the keep was T3? And then the server not-to-be-named didn’t have people in their T3 keeping an eye out 10 minutes after 30+ people broke into inner?

When we (NSP) tried the exact same thing In T1 they had at least 3 people hanging around keeping an eye out for a returning Zerg.

I should have clarified, I'm in the OCX timezone, so reset night for me is actually 12 hours into the match up. Saturday night.

There were a couple of scouts in the keep, but seeing as I teleported our zerg past inner and with a direct route to the lord, the reinforcements they no doubt called for had no chance of way pointing to spawn and traversing the map before my zerg had melted the lord. Because as I mentioned earlier the ewp was pulled to repel the initial attack. Whilst if my zerg was forced to build seige and brute force 2 walls/gates down the scouts would have plenty of time to call us out and get some bodies in the keep. Not so much when we're on the lord before they realize whats happened.

@Caedmon.6798 said:
@Doug.4930 said:
@melody.2601 said:
@Rikit Runk.5170 said:
@wevh.2903 said:
@Mokk.2397 said:
@pninak.1069 said:use target painter traps. if you get him with one he is pretty much dead. and even if you don't get him you punish the next zerg capturing the keep by draining supplies.

Target painters? A Band Aid to fix a severed leg. Why should it be necessary to have to use a gimmick outside of existing reveals to deal with one class. NO OTHER CLASS REQUIRES THE PURCHASE OF SPECIAL EQUIPMENT FIGHT IT!!! The excessive stealth is servery busted so FIX IT !

Thieves has no other utility in the game mode since everyone can fast roam aroud the map with mount.

Than the question should be what other valuable utility can we give to a thief?But I hope we can all agree that having a mechanic in game that is only countered by special equipment and or a 1vs 25 situation is bad game design.

You do not need 25 ppl nor special equipment to track down a single Thief hiding somewhere, the question is more like, why would you wanna track it down in the first place.

Stuff get's flipped non-stop a single Thief with Portal will not be the reason you lose the week long battle, if that ever happens your World has a lot more problems going on.

A condi reverent that can't really lose 1v1's also wont be the difference between a server winning or losing the week long battle, that doesn't mean it isn't extremely broken OP.A thief hiding in a keep after its flipped deserves the cap if it can survive 5 minutes of marked.The only issue with Thief portal is when a zerg breaks into inner and is wiped by the defenders, however a thief manages to survive the carnage and perma stealth's in a corner. Now at this point a group of less than 10 do not catch that thief. Ever. Even with 10 people they actually need to be a decent group of 10, running preferably roaming builds with spike damage coupled with reveals/marked tricks. And thats all assuming the defenders realize a thief slipped by them. Hell when I do this, I usually start hiding the moment inner goes down. Defenders really have no way of knowing I'm there because sniff doesn't work on stealthed players. Assuming Sherlock Holmes is able to deduce a thief is inside through voice lines you still need to catch me. I have full nomads gear, with durability runes + double cleansing and double energy on my weapons. If I do hit a stealth trap for any reason I just jump on my speed kitten mount thats immune to crowd control and bounce around for 30 seconds before resuming my hiding.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the Idea of defenders actually having to sweep keeps again. But they need tools to make it fair. 10 players all working together with traps and tricks to hunt down a single player so that they don't teleport a map queue onto lords 10 mins after the defenders have left is overpowered.

@saerni.2584 said:
@Rikit Runk.5170 said:Hi there, on my world it's quite common to have a perma-stealth thief camping in your Keep, waiting to port some others in.And when said Thief is somewhat decent,it's almost impossible to remove him from your keep even when you hunt him with multiple people.
To address this problem without nerving the thief to the ground I suggest a new mechanic that gets applied to you, when you're within an enemy Keep.This could be visualized with something similar to a breakbar.The Bar starts at it maxiumum value of 300 (seconds_allowed_in_stealth
10)each second in stealth deals 15 (10 + [Heal / second]) points of damage to it.But each second the Bar gets healed for 5(Seconds_allowed_in_stealth
10 / Time_Frame) PointsWhenever the Bar drops to zero you get revealed.
so you can either spend your full 30 seconds in stealth and burn your bar to zero and have only little access to stealth for the next seconds or you only briefly stealth every now and then but you'll be able to maintain your stealth-bar for extended periods of time.By doing so the thief can still use stealth to gain access to his strong stealth attacks and stealth related traits, but he'll have a harder time to reset the fight completely and hide in some corner. Giving his opponents a fighting chance.
I believe this is a somewhat fair solution for all sides. It's not impossible to hide in keeps, but you have to put alot of work in, if you've been discovered to stay there.Opposed to the current situation where the thief needs to kitten up is rotation before he can get punished for it.

What server matchup is that? I never see anything like this.

Last reset night in tier 1, fire keep. Usually the desert BL is the best to do this, because the garri and fire keep have huge inner's. My zerg breaks down the inner wall, the server that shall not be named's map queue ports in and wipes them, I wait 10 mins for them to leave and then teleport 30 people onto the lord with the help of a guildy mesmer. Lord is at 30% before swords trigger, EWP is down, GG rip T3 keep. I'm then free to roam that map without the oppression of way points everywhere.

Cool story but, i had the same issue last night where a thief was hiding in fire keep after they broke in. He died in about 2 minutes because me and 2 others put down a few stealth traps,he hit them and he died. Its as simple as that. All you need is using your eyes and having some awareness.

You seem to think I'm debating my points from the eyes of the victim. I assure you that I am the one abusing this mechanic. 2 players are never going to kill me unless I mess up real bad, or they catch me as I'm in the bathroom. I don't care how many stealth traps they lay down. I just jump on my mount for the remainder of the marked, or I swap to a run away build (which I can literally swap to with 2 clicks) thats speced into acro and daredevil with double shortbow/double energy/double cleansing. I guarantee you that anything less than 10 players does not catch me. Either Im permastealthing, or im fleeing on a runaway daredevil. With full nomads on each build.

I assume that the thief that you killed was a very inexperienced player.

I’d actually blame the commander here. If I see a 30 plus group try to take a keep and EWP gets pulled...I’d assume they are going to try again. That EWP is what saved the fight and I’d assume o can’t just leave the map for a little bit.

We had numerous attempts a few nights back on Hills on opposing BL. The EWP got pulled and the commander wiped the group pretty easy. Then the commander left the map and the group came back almost immediately. It was much harder for the commander to come back quickly after the EWP was on cooldown (even with scouts calling it out). After running back several more times and wiping the enemy the commander still didn’t try to stay on the map (left both times immediately) and push another objective (like Bay or a nearby tower) to run interference for Hills. When the commander logged out a short time later that same group (very persistent lol) came back and took Hills with no resistance whatsoever even with a call out well in advance.

In that situation, if you leave only a couple of inexperienced scouts in the keep after a defense that breaks into inner...that’s on the defenders.

Doug.4930 · July 6, 2020

@saerni.2584 said:
@Doug.4930 said:
@saerni.2584 said:
@Doug.4930 said:
@melody.2601 said:
@Rikit Runk.5170 said:
@wevh.2903 said:
@Mokk.2397 said:
@pninak.1069 said:use target painter traps. if you get him with one he is pretty much dead. and even if you don't get him you punish the next zerg capturing the keep by draining supplies.