Perma Stealth + Portal is an issue I'd like to address.

[Caedmon.6798]

@gebrechen.5643 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:Cool story but, i had the same issue last night where a thief was hiding in fire keep after they broke in. He died in about 2 minutes because me and 2 others put down a few stealth traps,he hit them and he died. Its as simple as that. All you need is using your eyes and having some awareness.

That's a great story, but completely off-topic. I ate an apple once and it had a worm in it. I ate the worm too. Now I think every apple has a worm in it.

Eh it's actually completely On-Topic.

[Svarty.8019]

The same old faces cropping up with the same pro-ganker guff.

"Deal with it", "Get over it", but when it's something they don't like it's, "Nerf warclaw!" and the like. Funny how the developers only seem to listen to one set of people.

[kash.9213]

@"Svarty.8019" said:The same old faces cropping up with the same pro-ganker guff.

"Deal with it", "Get over it", but when it's something they don't like it's, "Nerf warclaw!" and the like. Funny how the developers only seem to listen to one set of people.

Which set of people would that be? The op was about "perma stealth" in keeps, not ganking. This thread isn't even very big and there has been good discussion and suggestions by thieves and others. Drop by the thief forum and claim the devs only listen to them. Finally, next time read thread first, it helps.

[reddie.5861]

@Spirit Ritulist.9315 said:Hey there, so if you've ever fought against NSP before you've probably seen or experienced me before, I'm the kitten [sA] thief who's either hiding in your keeps, or is running around like a lunatic with daredevil abusing evade mechanics with full nomads gear of speed. Abusing permastealth mechanics has always been one of my favorite parts about thief, back in 2012-2013 I use to run 2 accounts 1 mesmer account with portal which I would let die inside a tower or keep, and then my main thief would hide, back then you could stay dead permanently so I would just revive my mesmer and port zergs in. When the 5 minute timer got fixed I thought my dreams were over...

i stopped reading here, many times i have been left behind in keep as thief.i dont even wanna stay not even if i could portal in the entire srver the fun is on other side of walls i couldnt careless for any objective when theres fights going on lol.

i dont see how people get joy out of this xD staying in a keep to fight a simple npc which will be retaken in 4 mins >.<

[Svarty.8019]

@kash.9213 said:Drop by the thief forum and claim the devs only listen to them.

That proves my point. They're always complaining.

[MichaelArchangel.7251]

@saerni.2584 said:

@Rikit Runk.5170 said:Hi there, on my world it's quite common to have a perma-stealth thief camping in your Keep, waiting to port some others in.And when said Thief is somewhat decent,it's almost impossible to remove him from your keep even when you hunt him with multiple people.

To address this problem without nerving the thief to the ground I suggest a new mechanic that gets applied to you, when you're within an enemy Keep.This could be visualized with something similar to a breakbar.The Bar starts at it maxiumum value of 300 (seconds_allowed_in_stealth

10)each second in stealth deals 15 (10 + [Heal / second]) points of damage to it.But each second the Bar gets healed for 5(Seconds_allowed_in_stealth

10 / Time_Frame) PointsWhenever the Bar drops to zero you get revealed.

so you can either spend your full 30 seconds in stealth and burn your bar to zero and have only little access to stealth for the next seconds or you only briefly stealth every now and then but you'll be able to maintain your stealth-bar for extended periods of time.By doing so the thief can still use stealth to gain access to his strong stealth attacks and stealth related traits, but he'll have a harder time to reset the fight completely and hide in some corner. Giving his opponents a fighting chance.

I believe this is a somewhat fair solution for all sides. It's not impossible to hide in keeps, but you have to put alot of work in, if you've been discovered to stay there.Opposed to the current situation where the thief needs to kitten up is rotation before he can get punished for it.

What server matchup is that? I never see anything like this.

Hm. With NSP about two weeks ago inside SMC. Two thieves inside absolutely untouchable for .... 20 or so minutes. We nailed one finally. The other ported in a zerg once they jumped back to the map. Still have the screenshots.

[saerni.2584]

@MichaelArchangel.7251 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Rikit Runk.5170 said:Hi there, on my world it's quite common to have a perma-stealth thief camping in your Keep, waiting to port some others in.And when said Thief is somewhat decent,it's almost impossible to remove him from your keep even when you hunt him with multiple people.

To address this problem without nerving the thief to the ground I suggest a new mechanic that gets applied to you, when you're within an enemy Keep.This could be visualized with something similar to a breakbar.The Bar starts at it maxiumum value of 300 (seconds_allowed_in_stealth

10)each second in stealth deals 15 (10 + [Heal / second]) points of damage to it.But each second the Bar gets healed for 5(Seconds_allowed_in_stealth

10 / Time_Frame) PointsWhenever the Bar drops to zero you get revealed.

so you can either spend your full 30 seconds in stealth and burn your bar to zero and have only little access to stealth for the next seconds or you only briefly stealth every now and then but you'll be able to maintain your stealth-bar for extended periods of time.By doing so the thief can still use stealth to gain access to his strong stealth attacks and stealth related traits, but he'll have a harder time to reset the fight completely and hide in some corner. Giving his opponents a fighting chance.

I believe this is a somewhat fair solution for all sides. It's not impossible to hide in keeps, but you have to put alot of work in, if you've been discovered to stay there.Opposed to the current situation where the thief needs to kitten up is rotation before he can get punished for it.

What server matchup is that? I never see anything like this.

Hm. With NSP about two weeks ago inside SMC. Two thieves inside absolutely untouchable for .... 20 or so minutes. We nailed one finally. The other ported in a zerg once they jumped back to the map. Still have the screenshots.

Share them. I’m on NSP and given the size of EBG I’d imagine it didn’t take long for people to show up and defend. Were the thieves in inner that whole time? Wow that sounds boring to spend 20+ minutes stealth stacking and avoiding reveals.

[schokelmei.8271]

@Caedmon.6798 said:

@gebrechen.5643 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:Cool story but, i had the same issue last night where a thief was hiding in fire keep after they broke in. He died in about 2 minutes because me and 2 others put down a few stealth traps,he hit them and he died. Its as simple as that. All you need is using your eyes and having some awareness.

That's a great story, but completely off-topic. I ate an apple once and it had a worm in it. I ate the worm too. Now I think every apple has a worm in it.

Eh it's actually completely On-Topic.

How? It's a typical "but I had once" situation that doesn't change the problem. If I know someone who survived a plane crash that doesn't mean crashing planes aren't an issue. That's not how logic works.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@Svarty.8019 said:

@kash.9213 said:Drop by the thief forum and claim the devs only listen to them.

That proves my point. They're

always

complaining.

Funny because necro mains never complain about anything....

[Caedmon.6798]

@gebrechen.5643 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:

@gebrechen.5643 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:Cool story but, i had the same issue last night where a thief was hiding in fire keep after they broke in. He died in about 2 minutes because me and 2 others put down a few stealth traps,he hit them and he died. Its as simple as that. All you need is using your eyes and having some awareness.

That's a great story, but completely off-topic. I ate an apple once and it had a worm in it. I ate the worm too. Now I think every apple has a worm in it.

Eh it's actually completely On-Topic.

How? It's a typical "but I had once" situation that doesn't change the problem. If I know someone who survived a plane crash that doesn't mean crashing planes aren't an issue. That's not how logic works.

Its not a " i had once" it happens every single time i use my "big brains".

[schokelmei.8271]

That's what that guy with the small hands always says and sure, we all believe you!

[DemonSeed.3528]

@saerni.2584 said:Share them. I’m on NSP and given the size of EBG I’d imagine it didn’t take long for people to show up and defend. Were the thieves in inner that whole time? Wow that sounds boring to spend 20+ minutes stealth stacking and avoiding reveals.

You'd be surprised the lengths of people with certain intentions and behaviours will go - however if you do give the same or similar tools to another class they would just do the same thing, doesn't matter what class. They did point out something which I did raise about at one point which is template swapping (technically not wrong use, but can lead to abuse), but we are stuck with that. It's funny because it doesn't just affect being on foot, but also mounted which can also be taken advantage of with know how.

[babazhook.6805]

So what is the issue here? Assume a thief hides out in a keep and then uses Portal to get friends in to flip that keep back to their control. So what?

Keeps and towers flip all the time. I have seen keeps flip to one side with only 4 or 5 people taking it and then it flipped back as soon as the Lord off cooldown by a group of 50. If you got a group of 10 0r 20 on a map and see the swords up on an objective you own , send your ten guys to that location and see whats going on. If it a thief that portaled in a small group kill them on the lords.

Should there be some hard and fast rule that no objective should be taken by subterfuge and that it only fair when it taken by a group that uses siege to get in and only by groups that do not use stealth?

If a thief manages to hide himself in a t3 objective and ports in a small group to try and flip it there generally plenty of time to get there and prevent that capture if you map aware. If it a t1 paper objective and you fail to get there in time flip it back.

While I generally play thief myself I also play other classes and professions and when I am on one of those and dealing with a thief I can not pin down due to my build , I just move on. Nothing says I must hang around until he dead. If it no fun trying to deal with that thief going in and out of stealth do something else. I will often fight people who fight just outside a portal into a keep or tower their side owns and everytime they get in trouble they dash inside. I do not feel any pressing need to hang around and kill that person. I move on.

[Spirit Ritulist.9315]

@reddie.5861 said:i stopped reading here, many times i have been left behind in keep as thief.i dont even wanna stay not even if i could portal in the entire srver the fun is on other side of walls i couldnt careless for any objective when theres fights going on lol.

i dont see how people get joy out of this xD staying in a keep to fight a simple npc which will be retaken in 4 mins >.<

You'd be surprised, it's the thrill of chase that makes it interesting. 2-5+ people all searching every corner of keep with reveal skills trying to find you while you carefully walk around and take note of where stealth traps are being placed. It does get boring sometimes being a solo thief doing this which is why I will call in a friend or 2 to come help me more interested and call pull off crazy stuff.

The best method to deal with me is to just ignore the fact I'm in there, I'll get bored and start doing stupid stuff like killing vet guards, destroying siege, or ambusing people using the gather nodes/merchants and thats how I get caught about 75% of the time.

@saerni.2584 said:

Share them. I’m on NSP and given the size of EBG I’d imagine it didn’t take long for people to show up and defend. Were the thieves in inner that whole time? Wow that sounds boring to spend 20+ minutes stealth stacking and avoiding reveals.

2 weeks ago was the matchup with Maguuma, AR, and NSP I think, in which case I actually think I know the exact situation the guy is talking about, it wasn't 2 NSP thiefs though, it was 1 Maguuma, 1 NSP thief, I snuck in when AR broke in to take it from Maguuma and apparently the Maguuma guy had the same idea. Quite awkward accidentally running into eachother. When you guys killed him I tried to be as quiet as I could in hopes you'd forget I was in there too lol.

Also nice to meet another NSP person, I team chat as Prepare For Pwn quite oftenly.

[saerni.2584]

@Spirit Ritulist.9315 said:

@reddie.5861 said:i stopped reading here, many times i have been left behind in keep as thief.i dont even wanna stay not even if i could portal in the entire srver the fun is on other side of walls i couldnt careless for any objective when theres fights going on lol.

i dont see how people get joy out of this xD staying in a keep to fight a simple npc which will be retaken in 4 mins >.<

You'd be surprised, it's the thrill of chase that makes it interesting. 2-5+ people all searching every corner of keep with reveal skills trying to find you while you carefully walk around and take note of where stealth traps are being placed. It does get boring sometimes being a solo thief doing this which is why I will call in a friend or 2 to come help me more interested and call pull off crazy stuff.

The best method to deal with me is to just ignore the fact I'm in there, I'll get bored and start doing stupid stuff like killing vet guards, destroying siege, or ambusing people using the gather nodes/merchants and thats how I get caught about 75% of the time.

@saerni.2584 said:

Share them. I’m on NSP and given the size of EBG I’d imagine it didn’t take long for people to show up and defend. Were the thieves in inner that whole time? Wow that sounds boring to spend 20+ minutes stealth stacking and avoiding reveals.

2 weeks ago was the matchup with Maguuma, AR, and NSP I think, in which case I actually think I know the exact situation the guy is talking about, it wasn't 2 NSP thiefs though, it was 1 Maguuma, 1 NSP thief, I snuck in when AR broke in to take it from Maguuma and apparently the Maguuma guy had the same idea. Quite awkward accidentally running into eachother. When you guys killed him I tried to be as quiet as I could in hopes you'd forget I was in there too lol.

Also nice to meet another NSP person, I team chat as Prepare For Pwn quite oftenly.

I’m in chat as Ryqual. So you may have seen me around, especially recently as I’ve been roaming more often.

[Mokk.2397]

@wevh.2903 said:

@Mokk.2397 said:

@pninak.1069 said:use target painter traps. if you get him with one he is pretty much dead. and even if you don't get him you punish the next zerg capturing the keep by draining supplies.

Target painters? A Band Aid to fix a severed leg. Why should it be necessary to have to use a gimmick outside of existing reveals to deal with one class. NO OTHER CLASS REQUIRES THE PURCHASE OF SPECIAL EQUIPMENT FIGHT IT!!! The excessive stealth is servery busted so FIX IT !

Thieves has no other utility in the game mode since everyone can fast roam aroud the map with mount.

So what your saying is thieves can't use mounts?

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

@Mokk.2397 said:

@wevh.2903 said:

@Mokk.2397 said:

@pninak.1069 said:use target painter traps. if you get him with one he is pretty much dead. and even if you don't get him you punish the next zerg capturing the keep by draining supplies.

Target painters? A Band Aid to fix a severed leg. Why should it be necessary to have to use a gimmick outside of existing reveals to deal with one class. NO OTHER CLASS REQUIRES THE PURCHASE OF SPECIAL EQUIPMENT FIGHT IT!!! The excessive stealth is servery busted so FIX IT !

Thieves has no other utility in the game mode since everyone can fast roam aroud the map with mount.

So what your saying is thieves can't use mounts?

erm, he is saying that thieves offer no real utility...nothing about that they can;t use mount, they can venom share! OP. shadow portal might of been ok if shadow arts wasnt so easy to stack stealth with and add dash, it does become a bit pointless trying to catch a thief, unless as someone said above you ignore them and allow them to get bored and do stupid stuff.

[NotFound.7813]

@Mokk.2397 said:

@wevh.2903 said:

@Mokk.2397 said:

@pninak.1069 said:use target painter traps. if you get him with one he is pretty much dead. and even if you don't get him you punish the next zerg capturing the keep by draining supplies.

Target painters? A Band Aid to fix a severed leg. Why should it be necessary to have to use a gimmick outside of existing reveals to deal with one class. NO OTHER CLASS REQUIRES THE PURCHASE OF SPECIAL EQUIPMENT FIGHT IT!!! The excessive stealth is servery busted so FIX IT !

Thieves has no other utility in the game mode since everyone can fast roam aroud the map with mount.

So what your saying is thieves can't use mounts?

Im saying thieves only utiliy at wvw was roam faster around the map to get camps but right now everyone roam with the same speed thanks to mount , thief has almost no place at zerg v zerg or smll group fights so there isnt rly a utility on thief apart from ttoling ppl around or get some kills from randoms without being killed by a zerg(wich is not rly a utility)

[Svarty.8019]

@wevh.2903 said:

@Mokk.2397 said:

@wevh.2903 said:

@Mokk.2397 said:

@pninak.1069 said:use target painter traps. if you get him with one he is pretty much dead. and even if you don't get him you punish the next zerg capturing the keep by draining supplies.

Target painters? A Band Aid to fix a severed leg. Why should it be necessary to have to use a gimmick outside of existing reveals to deal with one class. NO OTHER CLASS REQUIRES THE PURCHASE OF SPECIAL EQUIPMENT FIGHT IT!!! The excessive stealth is servery busted so FIX IT !

Thieves has no other utility in the game mode since everyone can fast roam aroud the map with mount.

So what your saying is thieves can't use mounts?

Im saying thieves only utiliy at wvw was roam faster around the map to get camps but right now everyone roam with the same speed thanks to mount , thief has almost no place at zerg v zerg or smll group fights so there isnt rly a utility on thief apart from ttoling ppl around or get some kills from randoms without being killed by a zerg(wich is not rly a utility)

Thieves offer unparalleled annoyance, distraction and escape abilities. They're the bait. They're the guy waving in the zerg's face while his friends sneak up behind it and whack it over the back of the head. They're teh clown, the jester, the japester, the jeepster, the creepster, the gropester, the mobster, the freakster, the beakster, I could go on, but I'm sure you're in no doubt as to the thief's role in zerg-play now.

Add to that incredible viability in solo and small group play and you've got a monstrous beast of a class.