Scourge and shades in spvp

[Happy Yes.1453]

I detect a lot of strong feelings about this and maybe those should be discussed in this thread.

In this pvp season there has been a general consensus that scourge is not good. I'm not a necro main, but I have been playing some mender/sanctuary scourge with wells on an alt I use for meme builds and it went from gold3 to 1600-1700 rating within a day on soloq with 0 skill needed. The only trick/problem for it to work: you can never ever use your shades. The entire idea of scourge was built around shades, but all the previous shade nerf really meant for scourge in spvp was: "you no longer have shades". It is the equivalent of making a balance patch that says "soulbeast is too strong and therefore it now dies when merging with the pet".

1. The scourge specialisation is built around shades and this reversal was necessary for shades to even exist in spvp.
2. Yes, I think scourge will be OP and it needs some nerfs other than removing shades from the game
3. Extra: the removal of the well trait is a good thing because it somewhat forced you to either take the trait and go full wells or not take the trait and no wells. Although I don't really like the idea of wells, scourge builds with just 1 well equiped based on the meta would be a better situation.

[mixxed.5862]

The problem is that Scourge is an awful AoE spam class. It's detrimental to PvP and killing WvW - painful to play against and not fun to play. Especially in WvW it has dominated the meta for years while making the game mode worse. Whenever Scourge is in the meta in PvP the game is less enjoyable to play. The shade revert is them doubling down on bad design choices.

The cd reduction on wells is fine for PvP. Although if there are no splits for Well of Darkness it will be broken! For WvW the changes were misguided to begin with.

[aelska.4609]

Buffing the "bad pvp design" of a class to make it viable in PvP is plain stupid. I don't understand how it went through the whole chain "proposed-accepted-implemented-tested-validated", but I keep getting surprised nowadays. Out of the thousands options available to rework shades in PvP, they have chosen the most cancerous and lazy one: double the AoE. Unbelievable.

I don't think it will make scourges overpowered but it definitely will make them less fun to fight against.

[DragonFury.6243]

The way i see this change is

1. they will take Herald of Sorrow and Sand Savant and the result is 2 Barrier for the necro and 10 man AOE 2 boon corrupt with 6 torments to the enemy's but also 10 man Barrier for allies and if necro take Abrasive Grit they will get 2 condi removal and 4 might for the necro and 1 condi removal and 2 might for 10 allies all that with one skill
2. did Anet learn any thing from sanctuary rune with the new blood bank and Abrasive Grit over heal will make him immune to candi and perma 25 might (because they only say healing and didnt clarified if it only from necro heal or not becasue that mean he can get over heal from FB or even better support ele) and dont forget about Vampiric Presence
3. we have so many cancer build in PvP why they want to bring the god father of all cancer and the most broken competitive design

EditBTW i am a necromancer main

[melody.2601]

Dunno if Scourge brings more on the table than a Core Necro counterpart tbh, I can could see Scourge picked up by some Teams in Scrims and AT's for testing purpose, but for soloQ it might not be the play.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

imo the most logical approach to shade balance is to separate the support and offense. no shades down, both offense and support is centered around the necro. shades down, support on necro and offense around shade. it would take away f3 fear for defense but maybe they can make an exception for that and have fear proc on both necro and shade. otherwise something has got to be done for game health, especially for wvw.

[mistsim.2748]

Why are we talking about this? I thought they made a mistake, and will be reversing the shade changes.

[Dantheman.3589]

Pretty accurate description of scourges place. If u run feed off corruption you either never use shades or spam them until u run out in 5secs. Big shade is probably a better use of shade, just put it down to support team mates when your kiting. Scourge is really strong rn and I love the wells trait on it because protection and the massive utility is really strong rn

[Poledra Val.1490]

If Anet dont radicaly change and balance Scourge before the patch tomorrow or soon post patch, then it will without a doubt be one of the most broken specs and you will see anything from 4-6 scourges per PvP match. The logic about reverting shades in my opinion is literally the fact that the balance team has no original ideas and decided to revert it to remove the bunker meta potentially.

The irony is scourges will like be the bunker so not much change there then.

Fun times ahead for pvp and wvw.

[Marxx.5021]

In PvP you always move. You want to have your skills working where you are when you need them. Anything else is awkward to play. It also made the difference in PvP from beeing viable or not. If there is an issue in WvW it is about the number of affected players. So there will be again a lower cap of how many player can get affected by shades.As a general note I would prefer that issues in one game mode are addressed in a way that is not breaking other modes. What has been done to scourge clearly made it disappear from any PvP meta. Reverting shade mechanics back is the right decision.

[Javonovich.5280]

In my opinion Scourge is a symptom of what’s more broadly wrong with GW2. When Scourge was revealed, it was an answer (read: “Band-aid”) to HOT’s boon/condi powercreep. Relatedly, it was also meant to scare players out of their boon spamming AOE balls of death by providing AOE boon corruption that actually hurt. Scourge will never be fixed until the core problems (discussed in detail over dozens of threads over several years) with the game are resolved.

I for one am kinda done. I was pleased with the power coefficient changes and thought we were moving in the right direction. But this patch is just removing the Band-aid that was already covering a gaping wound.

[jsp.6912]

i think scourge was not op asfuck before they destroyed it so this change is not bad

[Emapudapus.1307]

They just need to bring back the way you can hide behind pillars from shades :).

[Brimstone Jack.3462]

Looking forward to having a usable minion build in PVP again.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

Even though the revert to scourge shades was unexpected and not a good idea, that’s not what really concerns me.

What does concern me is that they dropped healing across all classes from the previous CMC mega patch and so the scourge bombs will be even more so impossible to sustain through...if you though scourge bomb was bad in WvW back then...just wait until you see scourge bomb post patch.

[Tman.6349]

@DragonFury.6243 said:The way i see this change is

1. they will take Herald of Sorrow and Sand Savant and the result is 2 Barrier for the necro and 10 man AOE 2 boon corrupt with 6 torments to the enemy's but also 10 man Barrier for allies and if necro take Abrasive Grit they will get 2 condi removal and 4 might for the necro and 1 condi removal and 2 might for 10 allies all that with one skill
2. did Anet learn any thing from sanctuary rune with the new blood bank and Abrasive Grit over heal will make him immune to candi and perma 25 might (because they only say healing and didnt clarified if it only from necro heal or not becasue that mean he can get over heal from FB or even better support ele) and dont forget about Vampiric Presence
3. we have so many cancer build in PvP why they want to bring the god father of all cancer and the most broken competitive design

EditBTW i am a necromancer main

You're a 'Necro main', yet you said all of this? Yeah...right.

Shade effects don't stack first of all. 10 enemies or allies isn't a thing in PvP. Also, the 'all from one skill' is more like y'all this from 'TWO SKILLS PLUS AN ENTIRE TRAIT LINE DEDICATED to those skills'. Harrowing Shroud, where all these effects would come from, is on a 25 sec CD that is highly telegraphed and even has a handy countdown timer for exactly when you should dodge. There's an argument for keeping the enemy targets capped at 5 in WvW and that is about it.

This restoration of function is necessary so please quit being so hyperbolic and dramatic.

[DragonFury.6243]

@Tman.6349 said:

@DragonFury.6243 said:The way i see this change is

1. they will take Herald of Sorrow and Sand Savant and the result is 2 Barrier for the necro and 10 man AOE 2 boon corrupt with 6 torments to the enemy's but also 10 man Barrier for allies and if necro take Abrasive Grit they will get 2 condi removal and 4 might for the necro and 1 condi removal and 2 might for 10 allies
   all that with one skill
2. did Anet learn any thing from sanctuary rune with the new blood bank and Abrasive Grit over heal will make him immune to candi and perma 25 might (because they only say
   healing
   and didnt clarified if it only from necro heal or not becasue that mean he can get over heal from FB or even better support ele) and dont forget about Vampiric Presence
3. we have so many cancer build in PvP why they want to bring the god father of all cancer and the most broken competitive design

EditBTW i am a necromancer main

You're a 'Necro main', yet you said all of this? Yeah...right.Being a necro main wont force me to defend a broken competitive designShade effects don't stack first of all. 10 enemies or allies isn't a thing in PvP.i never said they stack and 10 enemies or allies is a thing in PvP (ranger pet , mesmer clone , necro minions etc)Also, the 'all from one skill' is more like y'all this from 'TWO SKILLS PLUS AN ENTIRE TRAIT LINE DEDICATED to those skills'. Harrowing Shroud, where all these effects would come from, is on a 25 sec CD that is highly telegraphed and even has a handy countdown timer for exactly when you should dodge. There's an argument for keeping the enemy targets capped at 5 in WvW and that is about it.why 2 skills you can activate desert shroud without placing a shade so its 1 skillThis restoration of function is necessary so please quit being so hyperbolic and dramatic.its necessary for PvE mode and not competitive mode and if you want easy broken design build to play in PvP please dont . and learn to play a proper build

[Master Ketsu.4569]

Reverting the change is basically casual-pandering.

Making shade skills not automatically pulse from the Necro made the spec actually require some semblance of tactics and positional tradeoff to play well. It meant that if you wanted a shade ability to pulse at your location, you had to time it with your shade placement cooldown and then put one below you right at the same time as casting the skill. There were some Scourge players last season that showed this. The only thing reverting it accomplishes is it just puts Scourge back to being a buttonmash AoE spam class. Oook OOk Ah EeeH EEEE EeeEE.

[Brimstone Jack.3462]

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:Reverting the change is basically casual-pandering.

Making shade skills not automatically pulse from the Necro made the spec actually require some semblance of tactics and positional tradeoff to play well. It meant that if you wanted a shade ability to pulse at your location, you had to time it with your shade placement cooldown and then put one below you right at the same time as casting the skill. There were some Scourge players last season that showed this. The only thing reverting it accomplishes is it just puts Scourge back to being a buttonmash AoE spam class. Oook OOk Ah EeeH EEEE EeeEE.

I mean, you could just admit that you get wrecked 24/7 by necros, but to complain about getting owned by what's been a dead-ass useless pvp build up until now is just hilarious.

[Vancho.8750]

@Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:Reverting the change is basically casual-pandering.

Making shade skills not automatically pulse from the Necro made the spec actually require some semblance of tactics and positional tradeoff to play well. It meant that if you wanted a shade ability to pulse at your location, you had to time it with your shade placement cooldown and then put one below you right at the same time as casting the skill. There were some Scourge players last season that showed this. The only thing reverting it accomplishes is it just puts Scourge back to being a buttonmash AoE spam class. Oook OOk Ah EeeH EEEE EeeEE.

I mean, you could just admit that you get wrecked 24/7 by necros, but to complain about getting owned by what's been a dead-kitten useless pvp build up until now is just hilarious.And you can admit that it is brain dead speck that has no place in pvp, and it is probably the worst thing to happen to WvW, lingering Area denial that can be spammed is not engaging in any way. This revert made pvp worse it made it a slog and to play now. The game was made less faced paced in the previous patch it didn't need more slowing.Even winning is not fun, scourge drains any joy from the game and i just don't want to queue in again afterwards.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:Reverting the change is basically casual-pandering.

Making shade skills not automatically pulse from the Necro made the spec actually require some semblance of tactics and positional tradeoff to play well. It meant that if you wanted a shade ability to pulse at your location, you had to time it with your shade placement cooldown and then put one below you right at the same time as casting the skill. There were some Scourge players last season that showed this. The only thing reverting it accomplishes is it just puts Scourge back to being a buttonmash AoE spam class. Oook OOk Ah EeeH EEEE EeeEE.

I mean, you could just admit that you get wrecked 24/7 by necros, but to complain about getting owned by what's been a dead-kitten useless pvp build up until now is just hilarious.And you can admit that it is brain dead speck that has no place in pvp, and it is probably the worst thing to happen to WvW, lingering Area denial that can be spammed is not engaging in any way. This revert made pvp worse it made it a slog and to play now. The game was made less faced paced in the previous patch it didn't need more slowing.Even winning is not fun, scourge drains any joy from the game and i just don't want to queue in again afterwards.

same, im not playing ranked untill the remove scourge, and if people start playing this shit in unranked ill play a different game.

[Starbreaker.6507]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:Reverting the change is basically casual-pandering.

Making shade skills not automatically pulse from the Necro made the spec actually require some semblance of tactics and positional tradeoff to play well. It meant that if you wanted a shade ability to pulse at your location, you had to time it with your shade placement cooldown and then put one below you right at the same time as casting the skill. There were some Scourge players last season that showed this. The only thing reverting it accomplishes is it just puts Scourge back to being a buttonmash AoE spam class. Oook OOk Ah EeeH EEEE EeeEE.

I mean, you could just admit that you get wrecked 24/7 by necros, but to complain about getting owned by what's been a dead-kitten useless pvp build up until now is just hilarious.And you can admit that it is brain dead speck that has no place in pvp, and it is probably the worst thing to happen to WvW, lingering Area denial that can be spammed is not engaging in any way. This revert made pvp worse it made it a slog and to play now. The game was made less faced paced in the previous patch it didn't need more slowing.Even winning is not fun, scourge drains any joy from the game and i just don't want to queue in again afterwards.

same, im not playing ranked untill the remove scourge, and if people start playing this kitten in unranked ill play a different game.

Might better fire up another game, because I don't see Anet changing this back until they release the new expansion and make that elite spec over-the-top broken

[Asum.4960]

@"Master Ketsu.4569" said:Reverting the change is basically casual-pandering.

Making shade skills not automatically pulse from the Necro made the spec actually require some semblance of tactics and positional tradeoff to play well. It meant that if you wanted a shade ability to pulse at your location, you had to time it with your shade placement cooldown and then put one below you right at the same time as casting the skill. There were some Scourge players last season that showed this. The only thing reverting it accomplishes is it just puts Scourge back to being a buttonmash AoE spam class. Oook OOk Ah EeeH EEEE EeeEE.

No, it just removed it from PvP altogether, along with the Shade placement mechanic in of itself. Where was there a single Scourge player last season? Plus Scourge always has been, and still is with the Shades back to as intended, incredibly heavy on skillful positioning.If you ever played Scourge at high rankings you would know that if you are in the wrong spot for just a second you will get pain trained into a smear on the ground under perma CC.Shade effects around Scourge is literally the only "defense" on the spec.

If you can't manage to kite the 6 seconds of Shroud around the Scourge before turning around and smacking it down, especially now that it doesn't even cripple anymore, then idk what to tell you about who's the "casual".

[Master Ketsu.4569]

@Asum.4960 said:

@"Master Ketsu.4569" said:Reverting the change is basically casual-pandering.

Making shade skills not automatically pulse from the Necro made the spec actually require some semblance of tactics and positional tradeoff to play well. It meant that if you wanted a shade ability to pulse at your location, you had to time it with your shade placement cooldown and then put one below you right at the same time as casting the skill. There were some Scourge players last season that showed this. The only thing reverting it accomplishes is it just puts Scourge back to being a buttonmash AoE spam class. Oook OOk Ah EeeH EEEE EeeEE.

No, it just removed it from PvP altogether, along with the Shade placement mechanic in of itself. Where was there a single Scourge player last season? Plus Scourge always has been, and still is with the Shades back to as intended, incredibly heavy on skillful positioning.If you ever played Scourge at high rankings you would know that if you are in the wrong spot for just a second you will get pain trained into a smear on the ground under perma CC.Shade effects around Scourge is literally the only "defense" on the spec.

If you can't manage to kite the 6 seconds of Shroud around the Scourge before turning around and smacking it down, especially now that it doesn't even cripple anymore, then idk what to tell you about who's the "casual".

For the millionth time, the discussion on what is low skill floor or good for the game is not the same discussion as what is and is not OP / Meta.

[Brimstone Jack.3462]

Scourge has made minion master builds fun again.