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Scourge nerf was needed and is great for the zerg scene


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@"Sovereign.1093" said:As a necro and ele commander both are fun.

I believe ele requires a bit more skill because you need to memorize a lot of stuff to play it just right and have a decent rotation.

Ele is probably a decent guy who likes to do a combo attack if in boxing.

Necro is like a guy who times it right and does a strong counter cross punch.

A "bit" more skill is an understatement , there was a video (now deleted) of a streamer ( He left GW2 ) who was playing necro by mapping the mouse over his forehead , he called his video : spamwhichmancer build , one hand to wsad and the other rolling the mouse over his forehead.

This is a pure money grab plan to attract as many whales as possible to the game by letting them play something like this

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"Sovereign.1093" said:As a necro and ele commander both are fun.

I believe ele requires a bit more skill because you need to memorize a lot of stuff to play it just right and have a decent rotation.

Ele is probably a decent guy who likes to do a combo attack if in boxing.

Necro is like a guy who times it right and does a strong counter cross punch.

A "bit" more skill is an understatement , there was a video (now deleted) of a streamer ( He left GW2 ) who was playing necro by
mapping the mouse over his forehead
, he called his video :
spamwhichmancer build
, one hand to wsad and the other rolling the mouse over his forehead.

This is a pure money grab plan to attract as many whales as possible to the game by letting them play something like this

That was when scourge greater and lesser shades was 5 targets and faster CD on sand savant. It changed multiple times to the point where it's back but now has that but has 3 targets.

You can't do that anymore.

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@Sovereign.1093 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:As a necro and ele commander both are fun.

I believe ele requires a bit more skill because you need to memorize a lot of stuff to play it just right and have a decent rotation.

Ele is probably a decent guy who likes to do a combo attack if in boxing.

Necro is like a guy who times it right and does a strong counter cross punch.

A "bit" more skill is an understatement , there was a video (now deleted) of a streamer ( He left GW2 ) who was playing necro by
mapping the mouse over his forehead
, he called his video :
spamwhichmancer build
, one hand to wsad and the other rolling the mouse over his forehead.

This is a pure money grab plan to attract as many whales as possible to the game by letting them play something like this

That was when scourge greater and lesser shades was 5 targets and faster CD on sand savant. It changed multiple times to the point where it's back but now has that but has 3 targets.

You can't do that anymore.

Huh? The video depict a core necro not a scourge!

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"Sovereign.1093" said:As a necro and ele commander both are fun.

I believe ele requires a bit more skill because you need to memorize a lot of stuff to play it just right and have a decent rotation.

Ele is probably a decent guy who likes to do a combo attack if in boxing.

Necro is like a guy who times it right and does a strong counter cross punch.

A "bit" more skill is an understatement , there was a video (now deleted) of a streamer ( He left GW2 ) who was playing necro by
mapping the mouse over his forehead
, he called his video :
spamwhichmancer build
, one hand to wsad and the other rolling the mouse over his forehead.

Thanks for the laugh! That ele is feeding the whole 8 second spectral armor duration of that core necro, granting it tons of life force for free. That's like unloading a burst into infused light (herald heal) and calling it OP.

And he bursted into shroud instead of just spamming trash attacks into it while it degenerates to save the burst for the shroud downtime.

The ele did basically everything wrong. Classic brainless buttonmashing and whining when it doesn't work out.

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@Brujeria.7536 said:

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:@Brujeria.7536 you can see CoR coming, it has counterplay by being able to see it coming toward you

So what exactly is that statement supposed to mean? You can also see a ranger LB 2 coming at you. You can see a necro getting closer to well bomb. You can literally see anything coming unless you simply cant see it due to effect clutter or being unable to see the enemy model.

The thing is: compard to how easy CoR is to land, how low its cooldown is, how many targets it can hit at a good range with no usual ranged counterplay, its damage is way too high. You see, like if it had a justified cooldown for being such a skill, or being a projectile, or it being an AoE skill that doenst deal all of its damage upfront everything would be fine. But as it is, this skill is not balanced at all. this skill alone deals way more reliable damage then scourge and all shade skills do combined.

Compared to, before the powercreep, the most reliable, hardest hitting ranged weapon was actually base necromancer shroud. Then came revenant and the powercreep. Before base necromancer and shroud was the measurement of ranged damage, it had a counterplay as it was a projectile, being locked behind a class mechanic, on a cooldown, requiring lifeforce, etc. Then came revenant hammer, which just being straight up way better, requiring no cooldown management, its AA being a 100% projectile finisher for whatever reason, its second skill dealing way MORE damage in a much bigger area without any counterplay. this skill, and this weapon is the ultimate no brain troll weapon.

There cant be any justification to any scourge nerf before this skill in particular is adressed.

I don't know if you're purposefully trolling, or just truly ignorant of how the mechanism works.

CoR is not a projectile, that's about the only thing you got correct.

Cooldown too low? The cooldown was more than doubled in the Feb patch, from 4 seconds to 10 seconds. You are correct that damage got nerfed across all professions, but did everyone else see their weapon cooldowns increase by over 100%? Weapon skills that are also throttled by energy btw?

No counterplay? Not only was a red ground indicator added some time ago, but the ability itself now pulses outwards at a slower rate (changed in March 2020 patch) than previously. To make it easier for you to understand, the attack takes even longer to travel across the ground before hitting its target. You say that's not counterplay? I think instead you don't understand what counterplay is.

CoR hits too hard? Hits for the same amount as a Daredevil Staff Vault, which also hits 5 target, and technically has no cooldown as it is tied to initiative. Staff Vault also has no ground indicator as far as I know, and the attack lands instantly. The only negative difference for Vault is 600 range vs 1200 range.

I could go on, but my points have been made.

CoR has too long a cooldown? FalseCoR has no counterplay? FalseCoR hits too hard? False

There is no point discussing what CoR was like before Feb 2020, because none of us are playing in a time period other than today. As of today, CoR is right in line with hard hitting abilities across the board...with the exception of course being not only did they massively increase the cooldown (while not changing the energy cost ofc), they also slowed down the travel speed from player to target, making it even easier to dodge. CoR was given three nerfs in February vs. the single nerf most other damage abilities received.

Bonus Fact: A typical Hammer Revenant's ARC damage done by ability will look something like this:

  1. Phase Smash
  2. Inspiring Reinforcement
  3. Coalescence of Ruin
  4. Hammer Bolt or possibly Vengeful Hammers, depending on how you play

Wow, such an OP skill to only make it to #3 on your list of damaged done. And why #3? Why is Phase Smash #1 even though it has a longer cooldown? Because while Phase Smash is usually part of a coordinated bomb timed with CC, CoR is your filler attack, and when your targets aren't CC'd, it is pretty simple to dodge since the ground indicator appears long before the attack pulses its way to you.

Well now that has all be said, I can hopefully cross out ignorance as the cause for your post.

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@Turkeyspit.3965 said:CoR is not a projectile, that's about the only thing you got correct.

Revenant's hammer skill-set is one of the most powerful ones in the game if it comes to two-hand long range weapons.Even it's #1 skill which is nothing more than auto-attack has good projectile speed, pierces and hits for good amount of damage.And specifically is oriented for big-scale fights, since it also utilizes Combos due to 3 Combo Finishers and 1 Combo Field.

Just because CoR got increased cooldown from 4seconds to 10seconds and eats energy, doesn't change the fact, that the entire skill-set still is powerful.And despite that it always being very powerful, it was one of the last things that got hit by nerf-hammer...

Pity, because for a change, I would like Necromancer's Staff #1 to be at least around the level of Revenant's Hammer #1...And it's actually only okay for feeding LF from long range....nothing beyond that...

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:As a necro and ele commander both are fun.

I believe ele requires a bit more skill because you need to memorize a lot of stuff to play it just right and have a decent rotation.

Ele is probably a decent guy who likes to do a combo attack if in boxing.

Necro is like a guy who times it right and does a strong counter cross punch.

A "bit" more skill is an understatement , there was a video (now deleted) of a streamer ( He left GW2 ) who was playing necro by
mapping the mouse over his forehead
, he called his video :
spamwhichmancer build
, one hand to wsad and the other rolling the mouse over his forehead.

This is a pure money grab plan to attract as many whales as possible to the game by letting them play something like this

That was when scourge greater and lesser shades was 5 targets and faster CD on sand savant. It changed multiple times to the point where it's back but now has that but has 3 targets.

You can't do that anymore.

Huh? The video depict a core necro not a scourge!

Not that video you showed the scourge vid of the streamer who just rolled his face was that or a scourge.

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@KrHome.1920 said:

@"Sovereign.1093" said:As a necro and ele commander both are fun.

I believe ele requires a bit more skill because you need to memorize a lot of stuff to play it just right and have a decent rotation.

Ele is probably a decent guy who likes to do a combo attack if in boxing.

Necro is like a guy who times it right and does a strong counter cross punch.

A "bit" more skill is an understatement , there was a video (now deleted) of a streamer ( He left GW2 ) who was playing necro by
mapping the mouse over his forehead
, he called his video :
spamwhichmancer build
, one hand to wsad and the other rolling the mouse over his forehead.

Thanks for the laugh! That ele is feeding the whole 8 second spectral armor duration of that core necro, granting it tons of life force for free. That's like unloading a burst into infused light (herald heal) and calling it OP.

And he bursted into shroud instead of just spamming trash attacks into it while it degenerates to save the burst for the shroud downtime.

The ele did basically everything wrong. Classic brainless buttonmashing and whining when it doesn't work out.

Necro players are so deluded........I'd love to see you on ele , put the money where the mouth is

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@Tao.5096 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:CoR is not a projectile, that's about the only thing you got correct.

Revenant's hammer skill-set is one of the most powerful ones in the game if it comes to two-hand long range weapons.

Ok. So compared to Longbow and Staff, the only other two-handed long range weapons in the game..and even more specifically, Ranger Longbow, Dragon Hunter Longbow, and Elementalist Staff.

Hammer is certainly more powerful than Dragon Hunter longbow (not a difficult feat), but you're saying it's more powerful than Ele Staff or Ranger Longbow? I'd say they would all be of equal power, just under different circumstances. Ele staff is the only comparable AoE long range weapon, and under the right circumstances, they can easily out damage a Hammer, to say nothing of CC and utility.

So of the three long range two handed DPS weapons in this game, Rev Hammer is pretty much tied with Ele Staff for AoE and slightly below the single target DPS potential of a Ranger Longbow? Sorry, not seeing the problem.

@Tao.5096 said:Even it's #1 skill which is nothing more than auto-attack has good projectile speed, pierces and hits for good amount of damage.

And? Out of context that sounds over tuned, until you acknowledge that CoR has a 10 second cooldown + easy to dodge target indicator + costs energy, Phase Smash has a 12 second cooldown + target indicator, and the rest of Hammer's abilities (Hammer 4 and 5) do no damage.

Strangely enough when you compared that to a Ranger Longbow who has 300+ unit longer range, can be traited to pierce, has faster cast time and equally fast (if not faster) projectile speed and has a 20% chance (??? lolwut) to be a projectile finisher.

The damage and coefficients of the two attacks are almost identical, with Hammer being higher, but with Ranger Longbow having a longer range and faster cast time, so outside of resorting to napkin math, I'd say they were on par.

The only way Rev Hammer comes out on top here is that all but Barrage on Longbow is a projectile attack that can be reflected, while Rev has CoR and Phase Smash that are ground targeted.

But if you want to talk auto-attacks, Hammer is right in line with Longbow.

@Tao.5096 said:Just because CoR got increased cooldown from 4seconds to 10seconds and eats energy, doesn't change the fact, that the entire skill-set still is powerful.And despite that it always being very powerful, it was one of the last things that got hit by nerf-hammer...

What is wrong with powerful? That issue is when something is over-powered, or over-powerful. I've said it multiple times, Hammer is right in line with equivalent attacks from other professions.

As for it being one of the last things to get hit by a nerf-hammer, those are some tinted glasses you got on. It got nerfed alongside everyone else in February, but as a weapon it was bugged since October 2019 when ANET messed up the code and CoR often didn't even hit the target you were aiming at. I must have missed when Ele Staff, Ranger Longbow, or any other weapon in the game had one of their major attacks non-functional for about 5 months. Also irrelevant, since as I said, unless you have a Tardis stashed somewhere, we are playing in the present, the here and now, and talking about what you thought was true months ago is a waste of energy.

@Tao.5096 said:Pity, because for a change, I would like Necromancer's Staff #1 to be at least around the level of Revenant's Hammer #1...

If you want to use Necromancer Staff #1 for damage, then the issue is your lack of skill playing as a Necromancer, not that Rev Hammer is too strong.

Anyways, I'm done. This was entertaining, but we're quickly approaching meme territory.

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@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

Ok. So compared to Longbow and Staff, the only other two-handed long range weapons in the game..and even more specifically, Ranger Longbow, Dragon Hunter Longbow, and Elementalist Staff.

Hammer is certainly more powerful than Dragon Hunter longbow (not a difficult feat), but you're saying it's more powerful than Ele Staff or Ranger Longbow? I'd say they would all be of equal power, just under different circumstances. Ele staff is the only comparable AoE long range weapon, and under the right circumstances, they can easily out damage a Hammer, to say nothing of CC and utility.

So of the three long range two handed DPS weapons in this game, Rev Hammer is pretty much tied with Ele Staff for AoE and slightly below the single target DPS potential of a Ranger Longbow? Sorry, not seeing the problem.

You forgot about:

  • Engineer's Rifle
  • Warrior's Rifle
  • Warrior's Longbow
  • Druid's Staff
  • DeadEye's Rifle
  • Mesmer's Greatsword
  • Mesmer's Staff
  • Guardian's Staff

So in big-scale fights, Revenant's Hammer is pretty much #1 weapon for long-range - the only reason Elementalist is "better" is due to having 20 skills on staff, not 5 as Revenant, and lot of them are supportive...

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:And? Out of context that sounds over tuned, until you acknowledge that CoR has a 10 second cooldown + easy to dodge target indicator + costs energy, Phase Smash has a 12 second cooldown + target indicator, and the rest of Hammer's abilities (Hammer 4 and 5) do no damage.

And?You were the one who was making Revenant's hammer look weak, not the others...

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:Strangely enough when you compared that to a Ranger Longbow who has 300+ unit longer range, can be traited to pierce, has faster cast time and equally fast (if not faster) projectile speed and has a 20% chance (??? lolwut) to be a projectile finisher.

I'm sorry, but where did I compare Ranger's Longbow to Revenant's hammer?Nowhere...Still, Ranger's Longbow has only #1, #2 and #5 for DPS. Revenant has #1, #2, #3 and #5...where Ranger Longbow skills are vulnerable to projectile blocks...

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:What is wrong with powerful? That issue is when something is over-powered, or over-powerful. I've said it multiple times, Hammer is right in line with equivalent attacks from other professions.

As for it being one of the last things to get hit by a nerf-hammer, those are some tinted glasses you got on. It got nerfed alongside everyone else in February, but as a weapon it was bugged since October 2019 when ANET messed up the code and CoR often didn't even hit the target you were aiming at. I must have missed when Ele Staff, Ranger Longbow, or any other weapon in the game had one of their major attacks non-functional for about 5 months. Also irrelevant, since as I said, unless you have a Tardis stashed somewhere, we are playing in the present, the here and now, and talking about what you thought was true months ago is a waste of energy.

Too bad it didn't get nerfed earlier, as people were complaining about power creep for over a year and CoR was spiking for 8k+ straight in line for that time...that was the point of what I said about the nerf...

Even so, after they cut everything down for all classes, Revenant Hammer still does outshine everything else except Elementalist's staff for obvious reasons...

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:If you want to use Necromancer Staff #1 for damage, then the issue is your lack of skill playing as a Necromancer, not that Rev Hammer is too strong.

What?I only said that I'd like the #1 staff skill on Necromancer to have at least the damage as Revenant's Hammer...I didn't complain that Revenant's hammer is too strong...Dude, really...

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:Anyways, I'm done. This was entertaining, but we're quickly approaching meme territory.

Good, because you brought enough salt bags here, because "Necromancers", because "something else that isn't Elementalist"...

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@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:@Brujeria.7536 you can see CoR coming, it has counterplay by being able to see it coming toward you

So what exactly is that statement supposed to mean? You can also see a ranger LB 2 coming at you. You can see a necro getting closer to well bomb. You can literally see anything coming unless you simply cant see it due to effect clutter or being unable to see the enemy model.

The thing is: compard to how easy CoR is to land, how low its cooldown is, how many targets it can hit at a good range with no usual ranged counterplay, its damage is way too high. You see, like if it had a justified cooldown for being such a skill, or being a projectile, or it being an AoE skill that doenst deal all of its damage upfront everything would be fine. But as it is, this skill is not balanced at all. this skill alone deals way more reliable damage then scourge and all shade skills do combined.

Compared to, before the powercreep, the most reliable, hardest hitting ranged weapon was actually base necromancer shroud. Then came revenant and the powercreep. Before base necromancer and shroud was the measurement of ranged damage, it had a counterplay as it was a projectile, being locked behind a class mechanic, on a cooldown, requiring lifeforce, etc. Then came revenant hammer, which just being straight up way better, requiring no cooldown management, its AA being a 100% projectile finisher for whatever reason, its second skill dealing way MORE damage in a much bigger area without any counterplay. this skill, and this weapon is the ultimate no brain troll weapon.

There cant be any justification to any scourge nerf before this skill in particular is adressed.

I don't know if you're purposefully trolling, or just truly ignorant of how the mechanism works.

CoR is not a projectile, that's about the only thing you got correct.

Cooldown too low? The cooldown was more than doubled in the Feb patch, from 4 seconds to 10 seconds. You are correct that damage got nerfed across all professions, but did everyone else see their weapon cooldowns increase by over 100%? Weapon skills that are also throttled by energy btw?

No, but there also was no single other skill that is so bloated and over the top. If they add another 5 seconds to the cooldown, the skill might be "balanced". Energy isnt an argument here, its the revenants "fake" resource thats served as an unjust justification since its release. Every other class resource mechanic in the game is affected by skill or some kind of active gameplay. Hitting things for adrenalin. Hitting key skills for lifeforce. Revenant gets free access to its generation, which is plenty and also free energy by simply swapping legends. Its the biggest "meme" argument in the entirety of gw2. The entire weapon sets where balanced around no weapon swap, that would have been the counterplay for weapons like hammer. But last second they changed it, added weapon swap, without thinking about how broken and unbalanced the skills are in the first place, defying all other game mechanics in place.

No counterplay? Not only was a red ground indicator added some time ago, but the ability itself now pulses outwards at a slower rate (changed in March 2020 patch) than previously. To make it easier for you to understand, the attack takes even longer to travel across the ground before hitting its target. You say that's not counterplay? I think instead you don't understand what counterplay is.

Wow they added a ground indicator, like any other skill since release already have? It really has a travel time? Sure, you have a bigger window to react, but that doenst change the fact that its the only skill in the entire game that deals huge power damage, at long range, being not a projectile, being not an persistent AoE field, dealing all of its damage upfront. The skill, in its design, is flawed and goes against ANY other balance rule present in this game. But you know, it costs energy. I guess they need to massively buff necros lifeblast as well, or make Warriors ranged burst skills better as well.

CoR hits too hard? Hits for the same amount as a Daredevil Staff Vault, which also hits 5 target, and technically has no cooldown as it is tied to initiative. Staff Vault also has no ground indicator as far as I know, and the attack lands instantly. The only negative difference for Vault is 600 range vs 1200 range.

I could go on, but my points have been made.

You really compare Vault to CoR? A skill that forces you to be in close range in the first place and to even closer if you wanna deal damage with it?

CoR has too long a cooldown? FalseCoR has no counterplay? FalseCoR hits too hard? False

There is no point discussing what CoR was like before Feb 2020, because none of us are playing in a time period other than today. As of today, CoR is right in line with hard hitting abilities across the board...with the exception of course being not only did they massively increase the cooldown (while not changing the energy cost ofc), they also slowed down the travel speed from player to target, making it even easier to dodge. CoR was given three nerfs in February vs. the single nerf most other damage abilities received.

There is not a single, so spamable, long range AOE skill. Maybe if wells or lava font would deal all of their damage upfront, but then the cooldown would also be twice as long or the range and target cap would be much lower. Dont make false arguments here.

Bonus Fact: A typical Hammer Revenant's ARC damage done by ability will look something like this:

  1. Phase Smash
  2. Inspiring Reinforcement
  3. Coalescence of Ruin
  4. Hammer Bolt or possibly Vengeful Hammers, depending on how you play

Wow, such an OP skill to only make it to #3 on your list of damaged done. And why #3? Why is Phase Smash #1 even though it has a longer cooldown? Because while Phase Smash is usually part of a coordinated bomb timed with CC, CoR is your filler attack, and when your targets aren't CC'd, it is pretty simple to dodge since the ground indicator appears long before the attack pulses its way to you.

Well now that has all be said, I can hopefully cross out ignorance as the cause for your post.

This further proves the general point that revenant is unbalanced and its weapon set is completly out of logic. Phase smash is an EVADE. Evades should never deal as much damage as damage skills. These skills should, and most likely will, get the same treatment as stuns did. Which is a good thing.

Inspiring Reinforcement is a support skill, providing boons in the first place. This skill also should deal a quarter of its damage at most, or, having its damage split between its duration like ANY other damaging AOE skill in the game.

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@Tao.5096 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:CoR is not a projectile, that's about the only thing you got correct.

Revenant's hammer skill-set is one of the most powerful ones in the game if it comes to two-hand long range weapons.Even it's #1 skill which is nothing more than auto-attack has good projectile speed, pierces and hits for good amount of damage.And specifically is oriented for big-scale fights, since it also utilizes Combos due to 3 Combo Finishers and 1 Combo Field.

Just because CoR got increased cooldown from 4seconds to 10seconds and eats energy, doesn't change the fact, that the entire skill-set still is powerful.And despite that it always being very powerful, it was one of the last things that got hit by nerf-hammer...

Pity, because for a change, I would like Necromancer's Staff #1 to be at least around the level of Revenant's Hammer #1...And it's actually only okay for feeding LF from long range....nothing beyond that...

Exactly, the entire weapon set is a mess. Why does the AA have an guaranteed projectile finisher? Its damage and projectile speed does not justify it. Why is skill 2 so broken and without counterplay? Why is skill 3 a dodge that deals huge damage? Why is skill 4 a mobile projectile block with an disgusting uptime? This is like giving a melee weapon skill a 50% uptime skill that blocks 75% of all other melee attacks. Why has skill 5 one of the MOST DISGUSTING stun uptimes while being a 1200 range skill? To compare this: 2 seconds stun for 15 seconds cooldown. against: Necro Staff 5 1 second base fear, with 32 seconds cooldown, ele static field 2 seconds stun for 30 second cooldown. and this list could continue into infinity.

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@"SWI.4127" said:It's a mass PvP environment, of course AoEs are always going to be stronger. How do you suggest they balance that aspect of WvW?

Make AOE spells and heals weaker compared to single target spells. You can also break down the damage ratios into numbers, then calculate additional effects like boons, conditions, etc. into numbers and then just break the effective total power of each and weapon or skill down based on cooldown and equalize. Of course you would need to account for things as AOE fields as you cant judge how many ticks of damage they will do, or that some skills are easier to hit and execute like others, but this could be a simple way to calculate it and get a aproximate numeric value. Naturally, if 2 skills have lets say 8 seconds cooldown, skill 1 hits 1 target, skill 2 hits 5 targets, the damage of skill 1 would need to be much higher. Naturally, if heals are stronger then damage, fights would never end. Everything should be as closely equalized as possible, focusing the outcome of a fight around skill across all classes.

Another solution would be to remove the target cap of offensive spells while keeping the target cap on heals. This way stacking would not be possible and it would spice up the gamemode as a whole. Instead of a braindead zergball you have bigger battle fields with a much better flow. If individual groups are pushing forward and the individual skill matters fights will be much more enjoyable and meaningfull

Another solution would be to add body block and give player models a collision. Which would, again create some kind of tactic as you could have a real "tank" frontline that your foes need to break before they can engage the backline, or you could have formations while pushing giving real strategic elements to separate chaff from wheat. Naturally with this solution, you couldnt stack anymore so AOEs become less of a factor as its more likely to hit less targets as well as individual damage is stronger as a dead body means one less frontline member which makes it easier to circle or break through for the enemy.

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@KlausKNT.9302 said:The problem with scourge in fron line its that it have no instant teleport or invul or block to survive bombs and this big hp come to 0 in a 1-2 seconds in enemy charge covered usually by cc chain's- so gl to try survive with 2 target 180 radius shade barrier skills on the slowest class in gw2 :) Play in backline its always better becose you can run when see its coming and front line have fallen :)

@KlausKNT.9302 said:Actually on t1 organized groups/zergs i see much more tempest then scourges like yesterday on 37 man organized zerg was 2 scourges and 6 tempest. On 5 to 15 havoc groups usualy its on ewery 5 players 1 tempest but i don't see on any of this groups using scourges now :) (standard comp on each 5 players in group its -1 guard 1 ele 1 engi + 2 free slots ) :)On pug zegs/groups its a different story becose players come to wvsw with random classes that they play in pve and random gear and lvls- before they realize that wvsw skills can work different and it usually take some time before they gear up and/or change class to be more effective (usually low lvls or/and with low rank gear -they die in fight in a second and give enemy group/zerg big advantage on fight) :)

There isnt any "meta" class in large scale wvw (which is what the topic is about, btw) that needs personal invuln or instant teleport, as long as you can savely stay within the reach of your scourges, firebrands, tempests, and scrappers abilitys - and why even bringing up teleports? Scourge always had been a class played at the frontline, or even UPFRONT it. The idea is to stay at your safest position while gaining massive support, using your classes abilitys for maximum effect - not to "port out".

There is that one class that can not do that, or better to say, the build played by that class - or maybe why you even bring it to large scale- power staff weaver.There is a simple reason why damage weavers are most likely not in reach of defensiv or offensiv boons, cleanses, barrier, stab... (or only if deciding to do so, when feeling about to die, thereby losing almost all its offenive abilitys)- it is because in order to do noteworthy damage, the have to get, somehow, to the BACKLINE of the opposing group. And therefore, yes... they do allocate lightning flash in their utility bar, they do the "burning retreat trick"... and still somehow necro players act like its a big burden to use an utility slot for their personal defence- like WHAT???Sorry, lets get awake here, scourges intend was to be a SUPPORT based elite spec of neco... pretty much like tempest for ele. Strong in groups, weak(er) in roaming/smallscale.

...and by the way, you maybe know by know why staff weavers are NOT a meta class since.... 3 month after pof. Its GRN for years now, with just a sprinkle of other classes that are barely accepted ("cleanse" scappers may be an exception).

And then... there is this other thing you did. Please do not change "time stamps" willfully. The topic has been brought up after the "hotfix" changes to scourge shades, and wells.I will not say for what ever reason are lying if it comes about necro is for wvw ...but i can tell about my experience this morning (eu), running with 30 people at 8 am:

5 Soulbeast3 Druids1 Tempest2 weaver (me on staff, the other guy/girl did play fresh air scepter/x1 burn dh (the commander...)1 chrono2 scourges...and 6 or 7 reapers.

Yes, the numbers of scourges are dwindling...it still thems, necro still provides the biggest part of people playing wvw.

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@Jeran.6850 said:and still somehow necro players act like its a big burden to use an utility slot for their personal defence- like WHAT???

The issue pointed out with personal defense for Necromancer is that it has no escapes from hot situations.It has utilities that help it to tank it a bit, but it has nothing reliable to escape in big-scale fights.

In small-scale and roaming it sure does show that it's utility-set is nice and can be cool with some tactics, but big-scale wise nope.it can only count on Swiftness which either can be removed or also can just eat immobilize/cripple/chill or just any other hard cc.

And because of that, Necromancer is rather pulling offensive utility skills because if zerg is going to lose the clash, he will die anyway, instead of jump out and port to waypoint.

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@Jeran.6850 said:

@KlausKNT.9302 said:The problem with scourge in fron line its that it have no instant teleport or invul or block to survive bombs and this big hp come to 0 in a 1-2 seconds in enemy charge covered usually by cc chain's- so gl to try survive with 2 target 180 radius shade barrier skills on the slowest class in gw2 :) Play in backline its always better becose you can run when see its coming and front line have fallen :)

@KlausKNT.9302 said:Actually on t1 organized groups/zergs i see much more tempest then scourges like yesterday on 37 man organized zerg was 2 scourges and 6 tempest. On 5 to 15 havoc groups usualy its on ewery 5 players 1 tempest but i don't see on any of this groups using scourges now :) (standard comp on each 5 players in group its -1 guard 1 ele 1 engi + 2 free slots ) :)On pug zegs/groups its a different story becose players come to wvsw with random classes that they play in pve and random gear and lvls- before they realize that wvsw skills can work different and it usually take some time before they gear up and/or change class to be more effective (usually low lvls or/and with low rank gear -they die in fight in a second and give enemy group/zerg big advantage on fight) :)

There isnt any "meta" class in large scale wvw (which is what the topic is about, btw) that needs personal invuln or instant teleport, as long as you can savely stay within the reach of your scourges, firebrands, tempests, and scrappers abilitys - and why even bringing up teleports? Scourge always had been a class played at the frontline, or even UPFRONT it. The idea is to stay at your safest position while gaining massive support, using your classes abilitys for maximum effect - not to "port out".

There is that one class that can not do that, or better to say, the build played by that class - or maybe why you even bring it to large scale- power staff weaver.There is a simple reason why damage weavers are most likely not in reach of defensiv or offensiv boons, cleanses, barrier, stab... (or only if deciding to do so, when feeling about to die, thereby losing almost all its offenive abilitys)- it is because in order to do noteworthy damage, the have to get, somehow, to the BACKLINE of the opposing group. And therefore, yes... they do allocate lightning flash in their utility bar, they do the "burning retreat trick"... and still somehow necro players act like its a big burden to use an utility slot for their personal defence- like WHAT???Sorry, lets get awake here, scourges intend was to be a SUPPORT based elite spec of neco... pretty much like tempest for ele. Strong in groups, weak(er) in roaming/smallscale.

...and by the way, you maybe know by know why staff weavers are NOT a meta class since.... 3 month after pof. Its GRN for years now, with just a sprinkle of other classes that are barely accepted ("cleanse" scappers may be an exception).

And then... there is this other thing you did. Please do not change "time stamps" willfully. The topic has been brought up after the "hotfix" changes to scourge shades, and wells.I will not say for what ever reason are lying if it comes about necro is for wvw ...but i can tell about my experience this morning (eu), running with 30 people at 8 am:

5 Soulbeast3 Druids1 Tempest2 weaver (me on staff, the other guy/girl did play fresh air scepter/x1 burn dh (the commander...)1 chrono2 scourges...and 6 or 7 reapers.

Yes, the numbers of scourges are dwindling...it still thems, necro still provides the biggest part of people playing wvw.

So you noticed that most of the weteran tempest using teleport an invul skill in wvsw set? To escape big bombs that will kill scourge in same situations :)You noticed that most defeated players are in frontline not in backline? :)Scourges 2 aoe in 180 radius its like 1 aoe in order to suport any ally and its 4 time worse then any 5 target aoe support class- easy explained why scourges its not efective support now in wvsw and removed from organized groups :)Your math count its not right :)You sure you can count correctly?In 30 man zerg you tell was 21-22 players?This make no sense :)Pug zergs are a little diferent story becose this are random players with a random class and gear come just to play some wvsw regardless to be affective or not :) Yes even random pug players noticed that scourge its not good and they play someting else that its muth beter :)So if we whone scourge be back played, effective and used in wvsw we need to change all this 5 target aoe support classes to be 3 target aoe suport :) It will be stil 2 time more ally supporterd then scourge but not 4 time :) sounds fair? :)

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@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@KlausKNT.9302 said:Actually on t1 organized groups/zergs i see much more tempest then scourges like yesterday on 37 man organized zerg was 2 scourges and 6 tempest. On 5 to 15 havoc groups usualy its on ewery 5 players 1 tempest but i don't see on any of this groups using scourges now :) (standard comp on each 5 players in group its -1 guard 1 ele 1 engi + 2 free slots ) :)On pug zegs/groups its a different story becose players come to wvsw with random classes that they play in pve and random gear and lvls- before they realize that wvsw skills can work different and it usually take some time before they gear up and/or change class to be more effective (usually low lvls or/and with low rank gear -they die in fight in a second and give enemy group/zerg big advantage on fight) :)

Tempest and Scrapper can basically fill out the same role :) Scrapper is better since it has more access to superspeed I think and turns Condi into boons :) Scourge on the other hand, can do what others cant do, Corrupt,Damage,Support :) Having 3 support classes in 1 party is overkill :) and isn't needed, the the classes that should always be in a party is a Firebrand and Scourge followed by a Herald and either a Scrapper or Tempest. :)

I noticed that organized groups with 5 man with have 1 guard,1 tempest 1 scraper and like 2 slots free (used usually by dps like ranger, war, rev, thief or mes) are weey hard to kill :)All the 3 "support" class have dps and/or cc to. Scourge dont fit there becose its to slow to move with those grups mobility and have now only 2 targets to dps or "suport" (1 target its scourge so only 1 target to help in 180 radius- when have 5 players in group to support 1 its not enought) :)

Idk if you are trolling lol :), but when are Rangers and thieves taking the dps slots in a party of a group? :)

Also Scourges get swiftness from Guard staff 3 and Superspeed from either Scrapper or Tempest

again 3 support is overkill, 1 firebrand :) in every party with either a Scrapper or Tempest (Scrapper is preferred) :) Followed by a Herald (Which is a rev btw) :) and then Either 2 Scourges, 1 Scourge, 1 Spellbreaker or 1 Scourge and 1 Chrono :)

I assume he is talking in call spikes/gank situations, 2-4 rangers(beastmasters actually) with quickness can be devastating spiking players and comanders, mesmer can do it solo but m8 when bursting the target.

Clouding setups is basedon on mobility and range spikes with mesmer pulls(lots of them), usually u have the high damage soulbests and everyone else is bunker support and condi bunkers, ive been in situations where 10-16stabily stacks meant nothing due the number of range pulls being used.

ive seen groups runing mostly scrappers and FB with necros only for damage like there isnt any other classes nor builds, its anoying.. if u have this with clouding group the enemy backline will melt.

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@Aeolus.3615 said:

@KlausKNT.9302 said:Actually on t1 organized groups/zergs i see much more tempest then scourges like yesterday on 37 man organized zerg was 2 scourges and 6 tempest. On 5 to 15 havoc groups usualy its on ewery 5 players 1 tempest but i don't see on any of this groups using scourges now :) (standard comp on each 5 players in group its -1 guard 1 ele 1 engi + 2 free slots ) :)On pug zegs/groups its a different story becose players come to wvsw with random classes that they play in pve and random gear and lvls- before they realize that wvsw skills can work different and it usually take some time before they gear up and/or change class to be more effective (usually low lvls or/and with low rank gear -they die in fight in a second and give enemy group/zerg big advantage on fight) :)

Tempest and Scrapper can basically fill out the same role :) Scrapper is better since it has more access to superspeed I think and turns Condi into boons :) Scourge on the other hand, can do what others cant do, Corrupt,Damage,Support :) Having 3 support classes in 1 party is overkill :) and isn't needed, the the classes that should always be in a party is a Firebrand and Scourge followed by a Herald and either a Scrapper or Tempest. :)

I noticed that organized groups with 5 man with have 1 guard,1 tempest 1 scraper and like 2 slots free (used usually by dps like ranger, war, rev, thief or mes) are weey hard to kill :)All the 3 "support" class have dps and/or cc to. Scourge dont fit there becose its to slow to move with those grups mobility and have now only 2 targets to dps or "suport" (1 target its scourge so only 1 target to help in 180 radius- when have 5 players in group to support 1 its not enought) :)

Idk if you are trolling lol :), but when are Rangers and thieves taking the dps slots in a party of a group? :)

Also Scourges get swiftness from Guard staff 3 and Superspeed from either Scrapper or Tempest

again 3 support is overkill, 1 firebrand :) in every party with either a Scrapper or Tempest (Scrapper is preferred) :) Followed by a Herald (Which is a rev btw) :) and then Either 2 Scourges, 1 Scourge, 1 Spellbreaker or 1 Scourge and 1 Chrono :)

I assume he is talking in call spikes/gank situations, 2-4 rangers(beastmasters actually) with quickness can be devastating spiking players and comanders, mesmer can do it solo but m8 when bursting the target.

And it's no different to other classes but this guy doesn't understand

Clouding setups is basedon on mobility and range spikes with mesmer pulls(lots of them), usually u have the high damage soulbests and everyone else is bunker support and condi bunkers, ive been in situations where 10-16stabily stacks meant nothing due the number of range pulls being used.

Then your getting corrupted from Scepter 3 from necros, Well of Corruption or Standing with necros doing nothing inside a warrior bubble again this is very easy to see.

ive seen groups runing mostly scrappers and FB with necros only for damage like there isnt any other classes nor builds, its anoying.. if u have this with clouding group the enemy backline will melt.

Don't quite understand what you are saying but Firebrand and Scourge dominate squads, with a few other classes needed.

The main issue is this guy calling other classes strong but he has never played them, he doesn't understand the mechanics of any class really, he just plays necro

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@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@KlausKNT.9302 said:Actually on t1 organized groups/zergs i see much more tempest then scourges like yesterday on 37 man organized zerg was 2 scourges and 6 tempest. On 5 to 15 havoc groups usualy its on ewery 5 players 1 tempest but i don't see on any of this groups using scourges now :) (standard comp on each 5 players in group its -1 guard 1 ele 1 engi + 2 free slots ) :)On pug zegs/groups its a different story becose players come to wvsw with random classes that they play in pve and random gear and lvls- before they realize that wvsw skills can work different and it usually take some time before they gear up and/or change class to be more effective (usually low lvls or/and with low rank gear -they die in fight in a second and give enemy group/zerg big advantage on fight) :)

Tempest and Scrapper can basically fill out the same role :) Scrapper is better since it has more access to superspeed I think and turns Condi into boons :) Scourge on the other hand, can do what others cant do, Corrupt,Damage,Support :) Having 3 support classes in 1 party is overkill :) and isn't needed, the the classes that should always be in a party is a Firebrand and Scourge followed by a Herald and either a Scrapper or Tempest. :)

I noticed that organized groups with 5 man with have 1 guard,1 tempest 1 scraper and like 2 slots free (used usually by dps like ranger, war, rev, thief or mes) are weey hard to kill :)All the 3 "support" class have dps and/or cc to. Scourge dont fit there becose its to slow to move with those grups mobility and have now only 2 targets to dps or "suport" (1 target its scourge so only 1 target to help in 180 radius- when have 5 players in group to support 1 its not enought) :)

Idk if you are trolling lol :), but when are Rangers and thieves taking the dps slots in a party of a group? :)

Also Scourges get swiftness from Guard staff 3 and Superspeed from either Scrapper or Tempest

again 3 support is overkill, 1 firebrand :) in every party with either a Scrapper or Tempest (Scrapper is preferred) :) Followed by a Herald (Which is a rev btw) :) and then Either 2 Scourges, 1 Scourge, 1 Spellbreaker or 1 Scourge and 1 Chrono :)

I assume he is talking in call spikes/gank situations, 2-4 rangers(beastmasters actually) with quickness can be devastating spiking players and comanders, mesmer can do it solo but m8 when bursting the target.

And it's no different to other classes but this guy doesn't understand

Clouding setups is basedon on mobility and range spikes with mesmer pulls(lots of them), usually u have the high damage soulbests and everyone else is bunker support and condi bunkers, ive been in situations where 10-16stabily stacks meant nothing due the number of range pulls being used.

Then your getting corrupted from Scepter 3 from necros, Well of Corruption or Standing with necros doing nothing inside a warrior bubble again this is very easy to see.

ive seen groups runing mostly scrappers and FB with necros only for damage like there isnt any other classes nor builds, its anoying.. if u have this with clouding group the enemy backline will melt.

Don't quite understand what you are saying but Firebrand and Scourge dominate squads, with a few other classes needed.

The main issue is this guy calling other classes strong but he has never played them, he doesn't understand the mechanics of any class really, he just plays necro

He told you about the changes that are now in wvsw on squads compositions :)When last time you acually play wvsw to see scourges dominated there? :)You have no idea how long and what classes i play in gw2 :) Maybe you only play one class and you think everyone is doing the same? :)

There always its a reason why players play some classes more then others - one of the reason its class effectiveness in different game modes like pve, pvp and wvsw :) Last changes on wvsw shows that class effectiveness can be easy changed when we change numer of aoe targets :) Its noting to understand its a Simple math :) Math shows why aoe skills are most important and effective skills in massive pvp maps like wvsw : 20 targets its more than 5, and 5 its more than 1 :) Simple? I hope Yes :)

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