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'Superior Elements' trait and weaver's pathetic access to weakness

Narrrz.7532

By Narrrz.7532
in Elementalist

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Narrrz.7532

Narrrz.7532

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In group play this trait isn't so bad, since across all classes you have a better expectation of someone having a skill to inflict weakness, but for solo play Weaver's access to weakness really stinks. Besides this trait (which offers at best 30% weakness uptime, if you proc it the moment it comes off cooldown, unless you make a huge investment in expertise, Eles in general have the following sources of weakness:

Dagger 2 Air (5s on 8s cd)Staff 1 Earth (3s)Arcane t1 trait (33% chance on crit in Air; 3s on 3s cd)

That's it. Across all weapons, across all elements, only two skills and two traits (counting the one this post is about) inflict weakness. Only by camping earth or by getting lucky with crits in air attunement can you maintain weakness on your target to get any significant use from this trait.

I realise this is only a t1 trait but could it be improved perhaps just a little bit? with only 3s duration, surely 5s is more than long enough cooldown.

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MyPuppy.8970

MyPuppy.8970

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@Asurch.9352 said:Surprisingly, some of our utilities gave good weakness uptime, like the elite earth ele's active skill, glyph of elemental power's air version, etc. But they were all suspiciously changed to another condition a few months ago.

Makes you think

I hated they changed weakness for vulnerability on GOEP.

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Emberheart.8426

Emberheart.8426

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I really don't like this trait at all. Tempest was supposed to be a group oriented spec and somehow it is more self-sufficient than a selfish spec like weaver. In solo scenarios tempest can apply its own might and vulnerability better than weaver. Weaver needs a group even for this trait to work properly so it is way too group reliant in my opinion. However, I am not really a fan of all the damage modifier traits that weaver has. I wouldn't mind if they completely removed all of them except for Weaver's Prowess, and only because it is necessary if a hybrid damage build is to ever work. They should make the dual skills better instead and give us some more creative traits. That way we can also have a smaller damage disparity between game modes. Because as it is right now, in raids you get all the damage modifiers and do insane damage, while against players you are forced to take defensive ones which makes your damage way worse.

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MyPuppy.8970

MyPuppy.8970

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@Ganathar.4956 said:I really don't like this trait at all. Tempest was supposed to be a group oriented spec and somehow it is more self-sufficient than a selfish spec like weaver. In solo scenarios tempest can apply its own might and vulnerability better than weaver. Weaver needs a group even for this trait to work properly so it is way too group reliant in my opinion. However, I am not really a fan of all the damage modifier traits that weaver has. I wouldn't mind if they completely removed all of them except for Weaver's Prowess, and only because it is necessary if a hybrid damage build is to ever work. They should make the dual skills better instead and give us some more creative traits. That way we can also have a smaller damage disparity between game modes. Because as it is right now, in raids you get all the damage modifiers and do insane damage, while against players you are forced to take defensive ones which makes your damage way worse.

Agreed. Just removing the 10s icd or increasing the duration would be enough. Or inflict slow, i don't know.

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mygamingid.5816

mygamingid.5816

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@Narrrz.7532 said:In group play this trait isn't so bad, since across all classes you have a better expectation of someone having a skill to inflict weakness, but for solo play Weaver's access to weakness really stinks. Besides this trait (which offers at best 30% weakness uptime, if you proc it the moment it comes off cooldown, unless you make a huge investment in expertise, Eles in general have the following sources of weakness:

Dagger 2 Air (5s on 8s cd)Staff 1 Earth (3s)Arcane t1 trait (33% chance on crit in Air; 3s on 3s cd)

That's it. Across all weapons, across all elements, only two skills and two traits (counting the one this post is about) inflict weakness. Only by camping earth or by getting lucky with crits in air attunement can you maintain weakness on your target to get any significant use from this trait.

Superior Elements also applies Weakness through every Dual Attack you hit with. So you have the weapon-based attacks, plus however many attunement combinations you’re willing to use.

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Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

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@Kyon.9735 said:They were probably thinking of its synergy with Lightning Rod. Same with SoR and sword autos. kitten Anet, can we please get traits that doesn't rely on other trait lines (Superior Elements + Lightning Rod and Woven Stride + Cleansing Water)?

You just said it, that is synergy, not reliance. They work better together, but they still work when apart.

I've been theory crafting a lot of Weaver lately and I just love that there is no much synergy between the traits, it's such a hard choice a lot of the time because there are so many great interactions. I just can't settle on a build I like more than the others, it's great!

For Lightning Rod and Superior Elements, I am working on something like this because I already have the armor for WvW, but this would be for PvE. 95% crit chance in full Celestial/Air attunement with loads of ferocity etc... Seemed fun - http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vFAQJAsYncMAtMg1MAmNAM5ilGA7uS3pD1FFybYUQIQGAihA-jxRGABPq+TeKBB4EAg++D0pH4/HAQUK/IDg/CA-e

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Kyon.9735

Kyon.9735

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@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Kyon.9735 said:They were probably thinking of its synergy with Lightning Rod. Same with SoR and sword autos. kitten Anet, can we please get traits that doesn't rely on other trait lines (Superior Elements + Lightning Rod and Woven Stride + Cleansing Water)?

You just said it, that is synergy, not reliance. They work better together, but they still work when apart.

What? I did say they rely on other trait lines though. Yes they still work apart but don't you think they're too weak on their own? Weakness uptime is 3s for every 10s if not used with Lightning Rod. Unless you have others that can spam weakness, it will be way better to go more offensive with your stats and take Master's Fortitude.

About that build you posted, are you planning to use that in WvW as well? Zerging, Solo roaming, or will you roam with a support Tempest/FB?

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Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

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@Kyon.9735 said:

@Kyon.9735 said:They were probably thinking of its synergy with Lightning Rod. Same with SoR and sword autos. kitten Anet, can we please get traits that doesn't rely on other trait lines (Superior Elements + Lightning Rod and Woven Stride + Cleansing Water)?

You just said it, that is synergy, not reliance. They work better together, but they still work when apart.

What? I did say they rely on other trait lines though. Yes they still work apart but don't you think they're too weak on their own? Weakness uptime is 3s for every 10s if not used with Lightning Rod. Unless you have others that can spam weakness, it will be way better to go more offensive with your stats and take Master's Fortitude.

About that build you posted, are you planning to use that in WvW as well? Zerging, Solo roaming, or will you roam with a support Tempest/FB?

They are not really weak by themselves, you can't expect every trait to be stand alone perfect or there is no synergy between anything. 3s may be slightly too short, but it's not bad.

That build was just playing around with traits to see the different interactions for Superior Elements, for WvW zerging I'd still use Auramancer and for roaming likely this, but at this point it's all theory craft because I can't play atm. http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vFAQJAsYhcMozhFOwyB8RsIAY3v6ZduOIAEKfAEdhlQVA-j1RGABAcCAeU9H03fIKlfl/AAoTPQeKBJDg/YA-w

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Kyon.9735

Kyon.9735

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@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Kyon.9735 said:

@Kyon.9735 said:They were probably thinking of its synergy with Lightning Rod. Same with SoR and sword autos. kitten Anet, can we please get traits that doesn't rely on other trait lines (Superior Elements + Lightning Rod and Woven Stride + Cleansing Water)?

You just said it, that is synergy, not reliance. They work better together, but they still work when apart.

What? I did say they rely on other trait lines though. Yes they still work apart but don't you think they're too weak on their own? Weakness uptime is 3s for every 10s if not used with Lightning Rod. Unless you have others that can spam weakness, it will be way better to go more offensive with your stats and take Master's Fortitude.

About that build you posted, are you planning to use that in WvW as well? Zerging, Solo roaming, or will you roam with a support Tempest/FB?

They are not really weak by themselves, you can't expect every trait to be stand alone perfect or there is no synergy between anything. 3s may be slightly too short, but it's not bad.

That build was just playing around with traits to see the different interactions for Superior Elements, for WvW zerging I'd still use Auramancer and for roaming likely this, but at this point it's all theory craft because I can't play atm.

I just can't see a situation where anybody would use Superior Elements without Arcane Precision or Lightning Rod when playing solo. Same for Woven Stride without Cleansing Water. Can you give a situation where you'd use these traits without relying on other traits or external factors (other players applying weakness)? Because for sure, I'd just go full glass and take Master's Fortitude to pump up my HP instead of getting Vit gear and take Superior Elements for that 15% crit chance. I'd take Elements of Rage all day long if it's not used with Cleansing Water.

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Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

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@Kyon.9735 said:

@Kyon.9735 said:

@Kyon.9735 said:They were probably thinking of its synergy with Lightning Rod. Same with SoR and sword autos. kitten Anet, can we please get traits that doesn't rely on other trait lines (Superior Elements + Lightning Rod and Woven Stride + Cleansing Water)?

You just said it, that is synergy, not reliance. They work better together, but they still work when apart.

What? I did say they rely on other trait lines though. Yes they still work apart but don't you think they're too weak on their own? Weakness uptime is 3s for every 10s if not used with Lightning Rod. Unless you have others that can spam weakness, it will be way better to go more offensive with your stats and take Master's Fortitude.

About that build you posted, are you planning to use that in WvW as well? Zerging, Solo roaming, or will you roam with a support Tempest/FB?

They are not really weak by themselves, you can't expect every trait to be stand alone perfect or there is no synergy between anything. 3s may be slightly too short, but it's not bad.

That build was just playing around with traits to see the different interactions for Superior Elements, for WvW zerging I'd still use Auramancer and for roaming likely this, but at this point it's all theory craft because I can't play atm.

I just can't see a situation where anybody would use Superior Elements without Arcane Precision or Lightning Rod when playing solo. Same for Woven Stride without Cleansing Water. Can you give a situation where you'd use these traits without relying on other traits or external factors (other players applying weakness)? Because for sure, I'd just go full glass and take Master's Fortitude to pump up my HP instead of getting Vit gear and take Superior Elements for that 15% crit chance. I'd take Elements of Rage all day long if it's not used with Cleansing Water.

Well, yeah, unless you intended on making use of the synergy, Elements of Rage is always going to be a better choice. But personally, I'd probably still use Superior Elements by itself, even without Arcane Precision or Lightning Rod because weakness is a decent damage reduction and handy to apply as your opener. I do agree, going glass and using Master's Fortitude is a good option if you didn't want to use any of the other traits that work with the others and wanted max damage. I'll be interested to do a bunch of testing when I can to see how it all works in practice.

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Narrrz.7532

Narrrz.7532

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The problem as i see it is that weakness duration is too short (and restricted - that will only affect 1 target) to be of any use even as an opening bonus. For one thing, you need to hit with a dual attack to use it, which is seldom my opening move, at least with sword. Additionally, if your targets are living longer than those three seconds then they're probably something that you want much better weakness uptime on - a vet, or an elite. My point is that for any circumstance where that weakness will provide a significant bonus to your crit chance, the mob is going to be dead almost instantly, and for other situations you're better off going for a higher damage build to kill a tougher mob quicker.Either way its bonus just isn't big enough, imo. If it were a 50% chance on self-applied weakness (or a 50% bonus for 3-5 seconds after using a dual attack, on 10sec cooldown, to make it less exploitable in pvp) that would be a trait worth taking.

As it stands it feels like a half-implemented idea the devs were too scared to take to a point where it would actually be useful for fear of overpowering the spec.

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mygamingid.5816

mygamingid.5816

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To me, the biggest benefit of Superior Elements is the Weakness on all dual attacks. It lasts nearly 5 seconds with 60% condi duration (40% from gear & food, 20% from Weaver's Prowess). That's a hair shy of 50% uptime on a 25% damage debuff that also cuts endurance regen by 50%. On top of that, you also get a 15% crit chance bump, which is a 22% damage bump for the condi build I'm working on. Factor in uptime and that's still more than a 10% bump on power damage over time. That's pretty awesome for an adept trait.

For a power build, you can self-buff to 100% crit chance with full Berserker gear. Use Lightning Rod to get 100% Weakness uptime. If you use a Staff, you can use the Earth auto for unlimited 3.5s Weakness application. If you're running with raid meta support, you can use Valkyrie Rings for a little more Vitality and still cap crit chance.

Weakness also stacks duration up to five times. If you're going into a fight where it'll be more useful, stack it and then go into your rotation for 17+ seconds (more if reapplied).

If you still don't like it for some reason, swap to one of the other adept traits, I guess. You can get a couple seconds of swiftness if you get hit with a debilitating condition (10s cooldown) or some extra vitality - even more vitality if you're willing to use a sword and tank your damage all around. They're both a little better than not traiting adept at all.

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juno.1840

juno.1840

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@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Kyon.9735 said:They were probably thinking of its synergy with Lightning Rod. Same with SoR and sword autos. kitten Anet, can we please get traits that doesn't rely on other trait lines (Superior Elements + Lightning Rod and Woven Stride + Cleansing Water)?

You just said it, that is synergy, not reliance. They work better together, but they still work when apart.

I've been theory crafting a lot of Weaver lately and I just love that there is no much synergy between the traits, it's such a hard choice a lot of the time because there are so many great interactions. I just can't settle on a build I like more than the others, it's great!

For Lightning Rod and Superior Elements, I am working on something like this because I already have the armor for WvW, but this would be for PvE. 95% crit chance in full Celestial/Air attunement with loads of ferocity etc... Seemed fun -

Enjoyed looking at that build -- amazing boon up-time.

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