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Soldier's Gear


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@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:I'm really not. Aliam did all three when he took issue with my claim that Soldiers is a good set. He cherry-picked a couple of videos to try to argue against me, and he purposefully neglected all of the little factors that go against his assertion. Condi duration, the direct damage component, on-crit effects, ramp up, etc.

You're triggered. Take a deep breath.

I think I was pretty clear that I took issue with your claim that soldier gear produces "surprisingly high damage." That is not the same thing as saying that soldier gear isn't "good." This is what I had to say about the video of the scrapper:

"Here's a video from a player who runs tanky power gear with no precision or ferocity. His build also seems very survival-oriented on top of that. Obviously, the strategy is to outlast and he passes the test with flying colors! He doesn't seem remotely pressured even though he basically facetanks the entire fight with a flamethrower! Pretty impressive as this boss routinely wipes groups of players in open world!"

I then went on to point out that I played a tanky tempest build that performed in similar fashion before sharing my weaver build for comparison. Why exactly am I playing a low damage build if I thumb my nose at low damage builds? Some sort of clever ruse I suppose? At no point did I make any judgement at all about Soldier gear and, in fact, I had this to say in conclusion:

"I don't mean to suggest that there's anything wrong with running soldier gear. But if you're going to run tanky you are objectively far better off running condition damage builds than power. For power builds that can take a bit more punishment, I highly recommend marauder for open world. It is a very good set because it gives you quite a lot of health, but doesn't skimp on those essential stats: power/precision/ferocity."

So let me be clear: You do you, broski! I run tanky builds that deal jack for damage, too! I said so and I have had videos of it up on my channel for years to prove it! As it happens, I also do builds for new players that are designed to be super easy to use (unlike my weaver build), but extremely survivable. I am not in any way out to belittle people for choosing non-meta builds (my builds are never meta because I'm a solo open world/wvw roamer kind of player) or using tanky stats. I use tanky stats on my roaming build, too!

No. You made some pretty clear statements on the nature of condition damage and power when comparing the two. Statements that are blatantly wrong. Then you delved into trolling when I pointed it out.

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Going to keep this short because this is not an issue worth raging or discussing over since soldiers is NOT a good set in the totality of this games design.

Multiplicative common variables can ONLY be cancelled out if all factors are affected the same way. In your example this only holds true because you are going by a swing against swing scenario where if absolutely no other actions are taken, no boons are applied, etc. eventually a soldier set would outlive a berserker set. You then omit every other scenario by simply saying:"only in this case".

All fine. Based on that limited view though you can NOT make the claims you made for the totality of this game.

You can not claim the set is "good" based on what you have shown. You can not claim it will perform well in WvW. You can not claim this set is better for a weaker player because the situations in which a way higher alpha might kill an enemy faster might far outweigh a prolonged fight.

My only issue is the claims you make based of of a limited inspection. None of your math allows for any of them.

Do you know the reason why I assume perfectly symmetrical violence? Because, technically, you are fighting yourself. When deciding on what gear to use, there are a couple of very basic assumptions that go into making this decision:

(1): You are still yourself after changing gear.

No you are not. Gear absolutely affects how I play my character and how I face different situations in game. By the very least in reaction to how my character is affected IF I am unaware of what the gear change provoked. If I take a big hit or even go down, I will play very differently then when I am tanky and can out sustain the damage, saving my defensive cooldowns for actual big hits for example.

Which is another issue with your plain math example: no actual real life application since it only holds true if both sides just swing at each other, as mentioned by me earlier.

(2): Your profession is still the same after changing gear.

Untrue. A profession will play widely different between different gear choices.

(3): Your skills and traits are going to be the same after changing gear.

No they won't be. At least not their output will not be the same.

(4): Enemies are going to be the same after changing gear.

True, but the way they affect you will not.

(5): The game formulae remains the same after changing gear.

True.

(6): You are deciding what gear that you yourself are using, and not somebody else.

Irrelevant to this discussion.

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:The game does not change in mysterious and unpredictable ways depending on gear choice, and neither do you. There is "no other actions" taken because you can only take the actions you take, and you cannot take the actions you didn't take. Boons still work in Soldier gear. Soldiers will always outlive berserker, because enemies don't magically do more damage when you have more health and armor. There is no scenario where you are not yourself.

Yes, but that is not what you are putting to the test here. You are claiming that Soldier gear outperforms berserker and is damage efficient. No one is claiming that soldier gear will not outperform berserker gear. I am taking offense with your recommendation and claims that are going beyond that initial claim.

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Not only can I make these claims, I am actively making them right now. The effective health x effective power product is the overall statistical strength of a set of gear. It is how much damage you do multiplied by how long you live while doing it. This product... it doesn't go away. In PVE if you're fighting a champion mob, or a veteran, or a swarm of normal mobs, or a world boss... the product is the same .

This would only hold true if enemies did not have skills which, which they do just as players, increase their output in cycles. As such, killing something instantly for example, with a strong alpha, can have a very different result than being on a more tanky set and taking significantly longer. Which is actually an issue against enemies in pve. The chances are very high that, given the damage disparity between berserker gear and soldier gear, skill cooldowns and thus resulting damage and downtime after, a soldier geared player will be pressured a lot harder than a simple extended duration would suggest. Essentially making his higher survivability worthless.

This example could be expanded upon to incorporate defensive cooldowns, multiple rotations, etc. All of which are not being taken into account by your simple math.

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Listen to yourself. Your basically saying "all that math is meaningless, because the berserker gear has 25 might and uses fire grab while the soldier gear doesn't, has 25 vulnerability, and uses vapor blade. That makes the sigil of force better on berserker gear."

No, I am saying:Your math is insufficient to make the claims you make because in order to make those claims, you need to look at all aspects which would affect the outcome of a fight.

All your math has shown is that essentially the power stat has the biggest effect on power damage, up until a not really achievable break point, over precision and ferocity. Thus making soldier perform as well as possible for a power damage scenario while retaining 2 defensive stats. That is not the same as all the other claims you made.

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@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:I'm really not. Aliam did all three when he took issue with my claim that Soldiers is a good set. He cherry-picked a couple of videos to try to argue against me, and he purposefully neglected all of the little factors that go against his assertion. Condi duration, the direct damage component, on-crit effects, ramp up, etc.

You're triggered. Take a deep breath.

I think I was pretty clear that I took issue with your claim that soldier gear produces "surprisingly high damage." That is not the same thing as saying that soldier gear isn't "good." This is what I had to say about the video of the scrapper:

"Here's a video from a player who runs tanky power gear with no precision or ferocity. His build also seems very survival-oriented on top of that. Obviously, the strategy is to outlast and he passes the test with flying colors! He doesn't seem remotely pressured even though he basically facetanks the entire fight with a flamethrower! Pretty impressive as this boss routinely wipes groups of players in open world!"

I then went on to point out that I played a tanky tempest build that performed in similar fashion before sharing my weaver build for comparison. Why exactly am I playing a low damage build if I thumb my nose at low damage builds? Some sort of clever ruse I suppose? At no point did I make any judgement at all about Soldier gear and, in fact, I had this to say in conclusion:

"I don't mean to suggest that there's anything wrong with running soldier gear. But if you're going to run tanky you are objectively far better off running condition damage builds than power. For power builds that can take a bit more punishment, I highly recommend marauder for open world. It is a very good set because it gives you quite a lot of health, but doesn't skimp on those essential stats: power/precision/ferocity."

So let me be clear: You do you, broski! I run tanky builds that deal jack for damage, too! I said so and I have had videos of it up on my channel for years to prove it! As it happens, I also do builds for new players that are designed to be super easy to use (unlike my weaver build), but extremely survivable. I am not in any way out to belittle people for choosing non-meta builds (my builds are never meta because I'm a solo open world/wvw roamer kind of player) or using tanky stats. I use tanky stats on my roaming build, too!

No. You made some pretty clear statements on the nature of condition damage and power when comparing the two. Statements that are blatantly wrong. Then you delved into trolling when I pointed it out.

Whatever you say, champ. Have a good one.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:No you are not. Gear absolutely affects how I play my character and how I face different situations in game. By the very least in reaction to how my character is affected IF I am unaware of what the gear change provoked. If I take a big hit or even go down, I will play very differently then when I am tanky and can out sustain the damage, saving my defensive cooldowns for actual big hits for example.

Which is another issue with your plain math example: no actual real life application since it only holds true if both sides just swing at each other, as mentioned by me earlier.

You're just as skilled before you change gear as you are after. Purposefully playing differently doesn't devalue the math. In fact, it reinforces its truth, because then it means that you can press a clear statistical advantage.

@Cyninja.2954 said:Untrue. A profession will play widely different between different gear choices.

No it doesn't.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

No they won't be. At least not their output will not be the same.

Fire grab has a base value of 1.75 no matter what gear you wear.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

True, but the way they affect you will not.

The enemy has the same attacks no matter what gear you wear.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

Irrelevant to this discussion.

It is, because you've made it.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

Yes, but that is not what you are putting to the test here. You are claiming that Soldier gear outperforms berserker and is damage efficient. No one is claiming that soldier gear will not outperform berserker gear. I am taking offense with your recommendation and claims that are going beyond that initial claim.

No, I'm claiming that soldier gear has most of the damage of berserker gear, and it can outperforms berserker gear in high-pressure scenarios (WvW). I've proven this mathematically. Nothing I am saying goes beyond this initial claim. Your argument has been that all of the math I've done doesn't matter, because of skill, but then you immediately say you'd use superior bulk to preserve active defenses and maintain higher sustained damage uptime. THAT ONLY WORKS IF THE MATH IS TRUE!!!

@Cyninja.2954 said:This would only hold true if enemies did not have skills which, which they do just as players, increase their output in cycles. As such, killing something instantly for example, with a strong alpha, can have a very different result than being on a more tanky set and taking significantly longer. Which is actually an issue against enemies in pve. The chances are very high that, given the damage disparity between berserker gear and soldier gear, skill cooldowns and thus resulting damage and downtime after, a soldier geared player will be pressured a lot harder than a simple extended duration would suggest. Essentially making his higher survivability worthless.

This example could be expanded upon to incorporate defensive cooldowns, multiple rotations, etc. All of which are not being taken into account by your simple math.

No they won't. Soldiers has 62% of the damage with, in this example, 2.72 times the effective health. This means that the enemy lives 61% longer, which isn't enough to brute-force through active defenses and chew through 172% more health. Your whole point is BS. We've shown enumerable times that a berserker build has enough active defenses to fight champion and legendary mobs indefinitely. If a berserker can do it, then so can a soldier. Also, as I said originally, soldier is recommended in PVE until a player learns active defenses, or if they are casual and don't want to try too hard.

@Cyninja.2954 said:No, I am saying:Your math is insufficient to make the claims you make because in order to make those claims, you need to look at all aspects which would affect the outcome of a fight.

All your math has shown is that essentially the power stat has the biggest effect on power damage, up until a not really achievable break point, over precision and ferocity. Thus making soldier perform as well as possible for a power damage scenario while retaining 2 defensive stats. That is not the same as all the other claims you made.

No, my math is sufficient. It just means you don't understand all of the examples I've given. You're fixated on the idea that there is a literal, real person sitting in WvW right now in full berserker gear, and that I cannot say that this real person would lose due to soldier gear because of skill and stuff. You've completely dismissed my explanation about these comparisons being introspective, just so you can nitpick. When I talk about fighting somebody in WvW, it is only as a analogy to demonstrate the superior overall statistical advantage that one gear set has over the other. I don't actually have a particular guy in mind who I'm trying to beat. When I say "win by default," it doesn't mean that you'll always win. It means that the other person has to play with more skill than you, because playing with equal skill means they'll lose due to gear inefficiency.

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@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:No you are not. Gear absolutely affects how I play my character and how I face different situations in game. By the very least in reaction to how my character is affected IF I am unaware of what the gear change provoked. If I take a big hit or even go down, I will play very differently then when I am tanky and can out sustain the damage, saving my defensive cooldowns for actual big hits for example.

Which is another issue with your plain math example: no actual real life application since it only holds true if both sides just swing at each other, as mentioned by me earlier.

You're just as skilled before you change gear as you are after. Purposefully playing differently doesn't devalue the math. In fact, it reinforces its truth, because then it means that you can press a clear statistical advantage.

That is not the issue. The issue is behavior, which changes with different gear.

Higher player skill would simply make berserker gear even more advantageous since a player would be able to make better use of their burst damage and active defenses. That's not even what I was talking about. I was keeping it very simple in that: if a player loses more of his total life available, they will change behavior. Or they might change behavior even earlier KNOWING that they have less life.

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:@Cyninja.2954 said:Untrue. A profession will play widely different between different gear choices.

No it doesn't.

Sure, what ever you say. I would disagree but then again, your math supports neither of our hypothetical arguments. As such this statement remains true or untrue depending on how one stands and understands their class. I personally play my classes very differently even with exactly similar specs but different gear. Maybe you don't but I wouldn't know.

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

No they won't be. At least not their output will not be the same.

Fire grab has a base value of 1.75 no matter what gear you wear.

Yes, and in one case that will be sufficient to kill the enemy outright, in the other it won't, and already there we have a difference.

True, but the way they affect you will not.

The enemy has the same attacks no matter what gear you wear.

Yes, but how often they get to use them differs for example.

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Yes, but that is not what you are putting to the test here. You are claiming that Soldier gear outperforms berserker and is damage efficient. No one is claiming that soldier gear will not outperform berserker gear. I am taking offense with your recommendation and claims that are going beyond that initial claim.

No, I'm claiming that soldier gear has most of the damage of berserker gear, and it can outperforms berserker gear in high-pressure scenarios (WvW). I've proven this mathematically. Nothing I am saying goes beyond this initial claim.

Go through all the claims you've made, or do you really want me to list them?

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Your argument has been that all of the math I've done doesn't matter, because of skill, but then you immediately say you'd use superior bulk to preserve active defenses and maintain higher sustained damage uptime. THAT ONLY WORKS IF THE MATH IS TRUE!!!

My argument has been that you have gone beyond that claim that you now have gone back to. I disagree that all the claims you've made beyond that point that the majority of power damage comes from the power stats can be made. That is all I have said.

@Cyninja.2954 said:This would only hold true if enemies did not have skills which, which they do just as players, increase their output in cycles. As such, killing something instantly for example, with a strong alpha, can have a very different result than being on a more tanky set and taking significantly longer. Which is actually an issue against enemies in pve. The chances are very high that, given the damage disparity between berserker gear and soldier gear, skill cooldowns and thus resulting damage and downtime after, a soldier geared player will be pressured a lot harder than a simple extended duration would suggest. Essentially making his higher survivability worthless.

This example could be expanded upon to incorporate defensive cooldowns, multiple rotations, etc. All of which are not being taken into account by your simple math.

No they won't. Soldiers has 62% of the damage with, in this example, 2.72 times the effective health. This means that the enemy lives 61% longer, which isn't enough to brute-force through active defenses and chew through 172% more health.

Except if the enemy is dead or has to change behavior after losing life against berserker gear but not against only 62% of that damage. Which leads us back to what I said: your argument only works with opponents stupidly exchanging blows 1 to 1.

There is a reason why spvp and wvw builds and gameplay revolves around damage spikes and not sustained damage.

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Your whole point is BS. We've shown enumerable times that a berserker build has enough active defenses to fight champion and legendary mobs indefinitely. If a berserker can do it, then so can a soldier. Also, as I said originally, soldier is recommended in PVE until a player learns active defenses, or if they are casual and don't want to try too hard.

Fighting an enemy longer requires in some situations more applications of those active defenses. Which in turn requires more attention and skill. The question is not if soldier gear can do it. The question is if it will always outperform berserker as you claim. A claim as I have said can not be proven with the simple math you've done.

Your argument in this case works against you. If a player can do it in soldier gear, they will be able to do it in berserker gear since, given the limitations in self healing and disparity in pve enemy life versus damage done seldom allows for strait facetanking. If the player is able to use active defenses in soldier gear for an at least 40% longer time, they could have just as easy have done it in a fraction of the time on berserker.

@Cyninja.2954 said:No, I am saying:Your math is insufficient to make the claims you make because in order to make those claims, you need to look at all aspects which would affect the outcome of a fight.

All your math has shown is that essentially the power stat has the biggest effect on power damage, up until a not really achievable break point, over precision and ferocity. Thus making soldier perform as well as possible for a power damage scenario while retaining 2 defensive stats. That is not the same as all the other claims you made.

No, my math is sufficient. It just means you don't understand all of the examples I've given. You're fixated on the idea that there is a literal, real person sitting in WvW right now in full berserker gear, and that I cannot say that this real person would lose due to soldier gear because of skill and stuff. You've completely dismissed my explanation about these comparisons being introspective, just so you can nitpick. When I talk about fighting somebody in WvW, it is only as a analogy to demonstrate the superior overall statistical advantage that one gear set has over the other. I don't actually have a particular guy in mind who I'm trying to beat. When I say "win by default," it doesn't mean that you'll always win. It means that the other person has to play with more skill than you, because playing with equal skill means they'll lose due to gear inefficiency.

and I'm saying a statistical advantage is meaningless since other factors are of far bigger significance in nearly all scenarios. I've given examples where the statistical advantage can work against the player with soldier gear (mostly by not having pressure). As such, again, I disagree with your claim based ONLY on that one math example.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:That is not the issue. The issue is behavior, which changes with different gear.

Higher player skill would simply make berserker gear even more advantageous since a player would be able to make better use of their burst damage and active defenses. That's not even what I was talking about. I was keeping it very simple in that: if a player loses more of his total life available, they will change behavior. Or they might change behavior even earlier KNOWING that they have less life.

Active defenses are not more effective depending on gear. A dodge is a dodge. Likewise, player behavior doesn't change that you yourself do not become more or less skilled when changing gear, nor does it negate that the game is essentially the same: don't get hit, hit them until they die. Things are only different if you play them differently, in which case my response is simple: don't do that.

@Cyninja.2954 said:Sure, what ever you say. I would disagree but then again, your math supports neither of our hypothetical arguments. As such this statement remains true or untrue depending on how one stands and understands their class. I personally play my classes very differently even with exactly similar specs but different gear. Maybe you don't but I wouldn't know.

Yes, and in one case that will be sufficient to kill the enemy outright, in the other it won't, and already there we have a difference.

Yes, but how often they get to use them differs for example.

Quit nitpicking. You're just distracting from the point that gear choices are introspection, and the statistical advantage matters.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

Go through all the claims you've made, or do you really want me to list them?

List them, and cite them. You keep saying "my claim" over and over again, and I have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

@Cyninja.2954 said:My argument has been that you have gone beyond that claim that you now have gone back to. I disagree that all the claims you've made beyond that point that the majority of power damage comes from the power stats can be made. That is all I have said.

No I didn't.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

Except if the enemy is dead or has to change behavior after losing life against berserker gear but not against only 62% of that damage. Which leads us back to what I said: your argument only works with opponents stupidly exchanging blows 1 to 1.

You don't know how averages work. You still don't understand what introspection is.

@Cyninja.2954 said:There is a reason why spvp and wvw builds and gameplay revolves around damage spikes and not sustained damage.

Group healers.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

Fighting an enemy longer requires in some situations more applications of those active defenses. Which in turn requires more attention and skill. The question is not if soldier gear can do it. The question is if it will always outperform berserker as you claim. A claim as I have said can not be proven with the simple math you've done.

Yes it can, and I have. You're just making stuff up. I've proven that is is impossible for an enemy to do enough extra damage through prolonged life to overcompensate for the defenses that soldiers provides.

@Cyninja.2954 said:Your argument in this case works against you. If a player can do it in soldier gear, they will be able to do it in berserker gear since, given the limitations in self healing and disparity in pve enemy life versus damage done seldom allows for strait facetanking. If the player is able to use active defenses in soldier gear for a at least 40% longer time, they could have just as easy done it in a fraction of the time on berserker.

No it doesn't. It just means you haven't been paying attention.

@Cyninja.2954 said:and I'm saying a statistical advantage is meaningless since other factors are of far bigger significance in nearly all scenarios. I've given examples where the statistical advantage can work against the player with soldier gear (mostly by not having pressure). As such, again, I disagree with your claim based ONLY on that one math example.

How do you think this game works, exactly? It works off of stats. You can't play this game with anything BUT stats. If I follow what you've said here to its logical conclusion, it would be that players should not bother with upgrading their equipment beyond common gear, because statistical advantages are meaningless. So, clearly, stats are meaningful.

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I've run alot of different gears and builds in this game over the years, including using Soldiers back during its hayday when it was the WvW version of Berserker's gear, and pretty much everyone in the game was either PVT or zerker.

So I'll talk about this from a "tanking" perspective, i.e, open-world, dungeon solo and similar.

Statistically, its often exceeded by gear combinations like Valkyrie/Captain or Knight/Cavalier (or 4-stat gears like Marauders in various combinations) for DPS while providing little extra defense in comparison. The only real use it has is on classes that can crit cap and have very high Critical Damage with very little base Precision or Ferocity, like Necro and Guardian before Retaliation nerf.

But it does still have use, just on very niche builds that already overstack certain stats. Thief maybe could too?

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@Hannelore.8153 said:I've run alot of different gears and builds in this game over the years, including using PVT back during its hayday when it was the WvW version of Berserker gear, and pretty much everyone in the game was either PVT or zerker.

Statistically, its often exceeded by gear combinations like Valkyrie/Captain or Knight/Cavalier (or 4-stat gears like Marauders in various combinations) for DPS while providing little extra defense in comparison. The only real use it has is on classes that can crit cap and have very high Critical Damage with very little base Precision or Ferocity, like Necro and Guardian before Retaliation nerf.

You don't understand, man. This isn't about performance in actual gameplay scenarios. It's about winning the internet. Try and keep up.

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@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Hannelore.8153 said:I've run alot of different gears and builds in this game over the years, including using PVT back during its hayday when it was the WvW version of Berserker gear, and pretty much everyone in the game was either PVT or zerker.

Statistically, its often exceeded by gear combinations like Valkyrie/Captain or Knight/Cavalier (or 4-stat gears like Marauders in various combinations) for DPS while providing little extra defense in comparison. The only real use it has is on classes that can crit cap and have very high Critical Damage with very little base Precision or Ferocity, like Necro and Guardian before Retaliation nerf.

You don't understand, man. This isn't about performance in actual gameplay scenarios. It's about winning the internet. Try and keep up.

Pretty much this.

I out. If someone wants to talk up soldiers, let them. I can just hope not to many players take that person serious.

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As someone who has been running this set on one of my favourite Necro builds since before HoT came out I have to disagree with those who call the set worthless or trash.The main use I get out of Soldiers is on a Minon Master for several reasons.

  1. Power, Toughness, Vitality is a good stat set that can play to Necro's strengths as a high HP, durable class without completely crippling their damage output.

  2. Necros have access to a decent amount of sustain potential to further make use of that durability, especially through minions which also help get a little more damage out as well which is beneficial to this stat set since Minions have fixed damage and do not benefit from running Zerkers or any other DPS focused stat sets.

  3. Necromancers can completely ignore putting precision stat on their gear and still be capable of putting out anywhere between 55%-100% crit chance purely through traits, sigils and other sources while also gaining some bonus to their Ferocity to slightly increase their outgoing crit damage without again investing any gear stats into ferocity either.In small groups/party's you can rely on your team mates to boost both your damage and your crits by a respectable amount while you can be on the front lines taking all the aggro and still contributing to the teams overall damage output and survival.

It's decent enough for soloing too if you're into that, Halloween aint far off again, I am looking forward to soloing the Lab Horror and Grand Viscount at the same time again.Just a fun thing I like to do each year ^^

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@Teratus , You can get similar tankiness with marauder + cavalier's trinkets. That's why it's normally run on power WvW necros (scourge/reapers alike) , approximating demolisher amulet in PvP. If it's for WvW you can wear marauder + captain's or cavalier's trinkets with durability runes (+10% health and +175 toughness) , scrapper rune (7% damage reduction and +100 toughness), reaper rune (+225 toughness , which is essentially half armor or the amulet+ring+trinket set), or brawler rune (+225 toughness) if you need even more armor level because the 5% bonus on scholar rune is irrelevant quite often.Generally you can attain far more tankiness on trailblazer condi builds (for example condi scourge or revenant after the corruption traitline rework) provided the build isn't reliant on critical hits or any precision to condition damage trait interactions (for example for weavers the burn on critical hit from Burning Precision or the lesser used Arcane Precision). It's also a bad idea if conditions aren't applied on autoattack and most skills since power makes up a greater portion of damage.

@ Original poster, I wouldn't run full soldier's in PvE if you ever intend to do instanced content of any kind. Even with banners, spotter, fury, and assassin's presence (for ferocity) the crit rate will be rather low (~35%). It's fine for openworld because you aren't wasting everyone else's time in your party or squad; I totally understand some people just want to semi-afk and tag random mobs. In addition, aggro is sometimes toughness based and some attacks outright ignore armor since they are percentage based.

Technically speaking, it's generally better to have healing power if you actually have some form of sustain reliant on healing power (whether it is virtue of resolve, battle scars, barriers , or otherwise) instead of vitality for PvE unless it prevents you from going down to an attack (in which marauder would be superior). The issue is that healing power is usually mixed into condition damage sets such as Apothecary or Plaguedoctor : the main stat choices that doesn't nuke your damage if you mix a few pieces in are Marshal's or Zealot's. You see this in fractals when there is frailty active , reduced health isn't as much of a problem unless you're a full zerk tempest ele when protection from overloads isn't up (as opposed to weaver with Master's Fortitude traited instead of Superior elements) or thief not running marauder's resilience with the outflanked instability at the same time.

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@Teratus.2859 said:As someone who has been running this set on one of my favourite Necro builds since before HoT came out I have to disagree with those who call the set worthless or trash.The main use I get out of Soldiers is on a Minon Master for several reasons.

  1. Power, Toughness, Vitality is a good stat set that can play to Necro's strengths as a high HP, durable class without completely crippling their damage output.

  2. Necros have access to a decent amount of sustain potential to further make use of that durability, especially through minions which also help get a little more damage out as well which is beneficial to this stat set since Minions have fixed damage and do not benefit from running Zerkers or any other DPS focused stat sets.

  3. Necromancers can completely ignore putting precision stat on their gear and still be capable of putting out anywhere between 55%-100% crit chance purely through traits, sigils and other sources while also gaining some bonus to their Ferocity to slightly increase their outgoing crit damage without again investing any gear stats into ferocity either.In small groups/party's you can rely on your team mates to boost both your damage and your crits by a respectable amount while you can be on the front lines taking all the aggro and still contributing to the teams overall damage output and survival.

It's decent enough for soloing too if you're into that, Halloween aint far off again, I am looking forward to soloing the Lab Horror and Grand Viscount at the same time again.Just a fun thing I like to do each year ^^

I play Minion Master Reaper in full zerker gear and do just fine. The insane sustain you get from minions + Blood Magic allows you to literally face tank Champions without an issue.

Soldier gear is still trash.

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@Taril.8619 said:

Soldier gear is still trash.

Agreed. Some trash might have minor usefulness to a particular kind of player, though.

In that regard, I think Soldier's is oddly perfect for the kind of player who thinks it's a good idea to buy an 80 boost for a game they're totally new to. They're probably making a ton of assumptions about GW2 based on their other gaming experiences, are likely a bit impatient, and almost 100% do not read tooltips. For this kind of player, it probably makes sense to give them a set that stacks Vitality for a bit of anti-condi padding, Toughness to reduce those power spikes, and Power... well because on its face power is simpler than condi (the latter has duration, intensity, and type differences). Of course maximizing power bursts can take relatively complex setups too, but we're not talking about that type of player. Soldier's will help this kind of player not die instantaneously, and perhaps if they stick around long enough to try harder content, they'll come to know (or be loudly told) that Soldier's is garbage and be recommended other stats based on what/how they want to play.

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@voltaicbore.8012 said:

Soldier gear is still trash.

Agreed. Some trash might have minor usefulness to a particular kind of player, though.

In that regard, I think Soldier's is oddly perfect for the kind of player who thinks it's a good idea to buy an 80 boost for a game they're totally new to. They're probably making a ton of assumptions about GW2 based on their other gaming experiences, are likely a bit impatient, and almost 100% do not read tooltips. For this kind of player, it probably makes sense to give them a set that stacks Vitality for a bit of anti-condi padding, Toughness to reduce those power spikes, and Power... well because on its face power is simpler than condi (the latter has duration, intensity, and type differences). Of course maximizing power bursts can take relatively complex setups too, but we're not talking about that type of player. Soldier's will help this kind of player not die instantaneously, and perhaps if they stick around long enough to try harder content, they'll come to know (or be loudly told) that Soldier's is garbage and be recommended other stats based on what/how they want to play.

Yeah, Soldier is decent for newbies that have yet to really experience content as it gives a lot of buffer for when they fail to use their dodges (Or while they figure out what all the Bounty modifiers do in PoF)

Be they insta-boosted to level 80, or someone who simply went through Core Tyria zones doing map completions and thus never really encountered anything of any note or really had to care about gear beyond the (Garbage) they were given from level up rewards/personal story and ended up picking up some gear from the Karma vendors in Orr.

Outside of that, Soldier is just kind of bad. Marauder or Zealot would provide better Tanky Power builds, while Carrion/Rabid or Dire/Trailblazer would provide better Tanky Condi builds. With Carrion/Rabid/Dire being as easily attained as Soldier gear due to being purchasable off the TP for like 30s a piece (While Marauder/Zealot/Trailblazer are HoT stats and so a bit more of a hassle to obtain)

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@Infusion.7149 said:@Teratus , You can get similar tankiness with marauder + cavalier's trinkets. That's why it's normally run on power WvW necros (scourge/reapers alike) , approximating demolisher amulet in PvP. If it's for WvW you can wear marauder + captain's or cavalier's trinkets with durability runes (+10% health and +175 toughness) , scrapper rune (7% damage reduction and +100 toughness), reaper rune (+225 toughness , which is essentially half armor or the amulet+ring+trinket set), or brawler rune (+225 toughness) if you need even more armor level because the 5% bonus on scholar rune is irrelevant quite often.Generally you can attain far more tankiness on trailblazer condi builds (for example condi scourge or revenant after the corruption traitline rework) provided the build isn't reliant on critical hits or any precision to condition damage trait interactions (for example for weavers the burn on critical hit from Burning Precision or the lesser used Arcane Precision). It's also a bad idea if conditions aren't applied on autoattack and most skills since power makes up a greater portion of damage.

WvW is a whole different animal to PvE, I wouldn't run a Soldiers Minion Master there for many reasons.It's far harder to maintain crit chance on other players with soldiers there which makes it impractical, I too use a mix of Marauder and cavalier on my WvW necro build.No minions there due to them being trash in competitive also means I can't use them as a form of sustain either.So yeah while that stat combo is tanky and it is good, It's not as tanky as a Soldiers Minion Master can be in PvE.

@Taril.8619 said:I play Minion Master Reaper in full zerker gear and do just fine. The insane sustain you get from minions + Blood Magic allows you to literally face tank Champions without an issue.

Soldier gear is still trash.

Glassy Minion Masters are also good, but they don't have anywhere near the survivability of a Tanky Minion Master.Soloing champions is pretty easy these days on pretty much any class, even with glassy builds, Necro's especially are very good at soloing champions.Legendaries though, they are a far better solo challenge if you're into that stuff.You won't be taking many of those things down alone with glass builds.

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Going to chime in from a WvW perspective. PVT gear, either as Soldiers or Sentinels, is fairly good there. I ran a Sentinel/Berserker mix post Fed. patch (a few trinkets were zerker, and so were my weapons, I don't have a full set of Leggy gear yet). I had high power, 50% crit chance with Fury up, extra Ferocity from Axe Mastery, Vampiric Runes for extra HP and power. I tanked a zerker deadeye's opening burst and downed them with a short combo. Having high effective health will keep you very healthy after someone blows their cooldowns in an attempt to 1-shot you. Most 1-shot builds die if you sneeze on them, including with PVT gear. Yes, if you are able to get precision and ferocity from somewhere PVT gear is much better, a Reaper for instance would be terrifying with it (pun not intended).

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 is right on the relative math btw for those tracking internet wins.

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  • 3 weeks later...

@AliamRationem.5172 said:Power simply doesn't do much by itself.

This is wrong. The majority of your DPS comes from Power, Power is loaded with power (pun intended) and this is by design. The reason Power is the most important part of your damage is to keep support oriented builds competitive (like Harrier, that's the same as Soldier in terms of damage). All they need is to have Power as a primary and it's done.

Power > all attributes and in my opinion all sets that do not have Power (Major or Minor) as one of their attributes should be deleted from the game.

EditI did my math completely wrong :disappointed:

Here is the corrected version:Berserker does 54% more damage than SoldierAssassin does 45% more damage than SoldierMarauder does 40% more damage than Soldier

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@AliamRationem.5172 said:Soldier gear has only one purpose I can think of: To help new players not die in two seconds after boosting to 80. The set deals no damage, but new players would deal no damage dead anyway.

Soldier gear also has the purpose of map travel survival. If they live longer than 2 seconds it might just be enough to get out of combat and mount up again.

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@voltaicbore.8012 said:

Soldier gear is still trash.

Agreed. Some trash might have minor usefulness to a particular kind of player, though.

In that regard, I think Soldier's is oddly perfect for the kind of player who thinks it's a good idea to buy an 80 boost for a game they're totally new to. They're probably making a ton of assumptions about GW2 based on their other gaming experiences, are likely a bit impatient, and almost 100% do not read tooltips. For this kind of player, it probably makes sense to give them a set that stacks Vitality for a bit of anti-condi padding, Toughness to reduce those power spikes, and Power... well because on its face power is simpler than condi (the latter has duration, intensity, and type differences). Of course maximizing power bursts can take relatively complex setups too, but we're not talking about that type of player. Soldier's will help this kind of player not die instantaneously, and perhaps if they stick around long enough to try harder content, they'll come to know (or be loudly told) that Soldier's is garbage and be recommended other stats based on what/how they want to play.

Or they just want the raptor. I was telling my friend, if you want to get good on your ranger don't boost it. Think of an account you wouldn't mind training in the far off future, something you're not as interested in. Boost that one to get your raptor. Because by the time you get to playing that class, you'll probably know enough about the game mechanics that there won't be as huge a learning curve, even though the class is different.

She chose warrior.

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  • 1 year later...
On 7/20/2020 at 1:22 PM, AliamRationem.5172 said:

 

Claims I'm making a specious argument. Doesn't define his own terms. Demands I prove him wrong first. Misconstrues what I say. Dancing around everything else. I can recognize troll logic when I see it. You aren't here for a serious discussion on how gear affects damage and durability. You're just here to send me running into endless circles.

 

Obvious troll is obvious.

I defined my parameters with video and clear damage values. Do us the courtesy of doing the same. You don't need to provide video but simply define a dps value range that equates to what you are referring to as "surprisingly high damage".

We both know why you will never do that. Because the moment you do, it will become crystal clear that you are wrong and power without precision and ferocity deals jack for damage.

i make builds for fun, some very impressive ones if i do say so myself. i havnt messed around with soldier much however what comes to mind since i play warrior a lot is if you want to make the dps higher. you most likly will need 3 sec 100% crit sigils and possibly the precision and ferocity boost on disable sigil. then perhaps a build with high vigor and signet of endurance. with runes of .... daredevil i believe. every dodge gives a 100% crit. that or just a crit sigil of 7% with fury would give what 33% crit chance then you would have 1005 on dodges and 100% for 3 seconds. if you like more crit you can spec 100% crit on burst skills or 50% increased crit to disabled foes. then run some physical cc abilities.. there is also the signet stacking that can give 100 ferocity per stack of 5. 

so now you have the potential of a high power build with high armor and high health that can still lay down high burst and sustain damage while also being able to reckllesslly dodge. 

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On 8/18/2020 at 10:22 AM, Katelynn.6593 said:

 

Agreed. Some trash might have minor usefulness to a particular kind of player, though.

 

In that regard, I think Soldier's is oddly perfect for the kind of player who thinks it's a good idea to buy an 80 boost for a game they're totally new to. They're probably making a ton of assumptions about GW2 based on their other gaming experiences, are likely a bit impatient, and almost 100% do not read tooltips. For this kind of player, it probably makes sense to give them a set that stacks Vitality for a bit of anti-condi padding, Toughness to reduce those power spikes, and Power... well because on its face power is simpler than condi (the latter has duration, intensity, and type differences). Of course maximizing power bursts can take relatively complex setups too, but we're not talking about that type of player. Soldier's will help this kind of player not die instantaneously, and perhaps if they stick around long enough to try harder content, they'll come to know (or be loudly told) that Soldier's is garbage and be recommended other stats based on what/how they want to play.

 

Or they just want the raptor. I was telling my friend, if you want to get good on your ranger don't boost it. Think of an account you wouldn't mind training in the far off future, something you're not as interested in. Boost that one to get your raptor. Because by the time you get to playing that class, you'll probably know enough about the game mechanics that there won't be as huge a learning curve, even though the class is different.

She chose warrior.

I find that although no one teams in this game or even likes seeing other people run around it seems. that def stats on armor is good for group builds.. yes you can have 10 max dps warriors but if you have a team focused build and everyone has some beef their combined damage helps make up the difference in a fight. 10 dps vs 10 tanks. its likly that 10 tanks can slowly pick off the dps and although the dps can possibly pick off the tanks there is much more risk involved there. one of my favorite methods of this was in pvp with a condi tank warrior group. we used shout heals to keep everyone healthy as it was more reliable in numbers. constant aoe fire fields around us and could shoot and apply 4 stacks burning per person with auto attacks. so 20 stacks of burners on 1 player at a time with no cooldowns. plus bow and sword have immob so it was easy to control fights and peel from allies. personally i enjoy the teamwork of a good team beef build over raw dps.

i would also say thaat some skills in game people say are trash, are much better in group builds aswell but no one does that. one such thing is the bow 4 skills. 3 ammo aoe blind. with 5 people you get 15 aoe blinds and with their recharage that is infinite aoe blinds. skills can be multiplicitive aswell.

Edited by marlax.2586
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