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Do you like the addition of barrier as a mechanic?


Bast.7253

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I'm sure it's been mentioned countless times, but I was thinking the other day about the addition of barrier. Initially, it seemed like it was primarily geared towards Scourge as one of its primary appeals, (Maybe weavers or were those traits modified later after release?)

Now, however many years later since POF release it seems like it's slowly been baked into more and more traits/weapons/specs. Do you think this has had a positive impact on the game?

Some implementations feel like they should have always functioned that way, and some feel like obvious bandaid fixes for underlying issues.

What changes would you propose?

Personally I think the implementation on scrapper, while borderline abusive with certain builds, is the best implemented because it doesn't rely on using specific stats to gain the most benefit.

There are other specs like Weaver that seem to gain little to no benefit from it if building anything other than Sage/Mender/Avatar because the barrier is negligible. One could argue the trade off is that if you build for high damage on weaver you don't want them having access to large amounts of barrier, but weaver has very little access to stability whereas scrapper can have constant stab and do a high amount of damage by just holding down 1 on flamethrower, in addition to reflects and superspeed.

Then there are outliers like Warrior and Ranger that have specific abilities that grant access to a large amount of barrier, ranger which seems like it was tossed into make "Protect Me" more appealing and more than just a protection buff. Warrior which gains it on Warhorn and still seems to be so unappealing that it doesn't warrant that much attention in comparison to shield. (Outside of MAYBE the longbow build.)

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Barrier is fine when it is balanced around reasonable numbers.

Barrier is not fine when you are providing your entire team a 10k health shield every 15 to 20 seconds.

Well I guess I wouldn't notice since my team always actively avoids me and my shades when I play necro. >_<

Honestly I can't say I've even noticed it fighting against scourge comps either. And 10k? That seems a bit much.

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I thought barrier was really cool when it first released. And I thought it would be only a scourge mechanic. Necros have little escapes so I thought it was nice that they got access to barrier. But so many classes have barrier now. I like scourges having access to barrier. i don't think other classes should have access to it at all, unless it is shared by a scourge.

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@Bast.7253 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Barrier is fine when it is balanced around reasonable numbers.

Barrier is not fine when you are providing your entire team a 10k health shield every 15 to 20 seconds.

Well I guess I wouldn't notice since my team always actively avoids me and my shades when I play necro. >_<

Honestly I can't say I've even noticed it fighting against scourge comps either. And 10k? That seems a bit much.

You kidding me?

Pay attention to the coefficients when you slap on + heal stat.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Barrier is fine when it is balanced around reasonable numbers.

Barrier is not fine when you are providing your entire team a 10k health shield every 15 to 20 seconds.Anet's logic is really interesting.Imagine if I have 5 pennies and I want to give it to 5 people:

  • Common logic: I give to each person 1 penny
  • Anet's logic: I give to each person my 5 pennies (at the same time)

good news #1: They just implemented a quantic physic principle inside a video game. GJ for them.good news #2: There is a well-known story saying that a young white guy managed to do the same in the middle east a couple of millennium ago with food or water or something and billions of people believe in that story. So anet has billions of supporters. GJ for them

bad news #1: There is no bad news. This system is so heavenly designed that it can t be any.

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@ollbirtan.2915 said:Btw, Revs also have barrier trait in Ventari. Nice for meme builds in pvp, and only useful when hand kiting Deimos lol :)I don t find it as useless as you. It's a source of constant (small) sustain any build needs to be viable. Especially in tf where you can easily end up with 5+ boons.You forgot song of mist + dwarf. I believe this will be the next broken thing on rev.

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yes, however it should not be stronger than healing - more a way to negate dmglooking at scourge you can just apply barrier like its healing and faceroll yourself through fights

it should be way shorter imo and functioning like an active block rather than passively

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@Eugchriss.2046 said:

@ollbirtan.2915 said:Btw, Revs also have barrier trait in Ventari. Nice for meme builds in pvp, and only useful when hand kiting Deimos lol :)I don t find it as useless as you. It's a source of constant (small) sustain any build needs to be viable. Especially in tf where you can easily end up with 5+ boons.You forgot song of mist + dwarf. I believe this will be the next broken thing on rev.

I don't find it completely useless, and I myself use it sometimes in spvp. The reason I call it a meme, is because of lazy / incoherent implementation by anet. The Resilient Spirit barrier trait is in Salvation traitline which was initially designed as rev's healing / support traitline. The thing is, that if you take Salvation in pve, you don't take Resilient Spirit, but rather go for healing modifying traits and use Ventari legend.In sPvP, however, if you take Salvation - you don't have much choice, and are bound to take 2(or 1) - 2 -2. BUT Ventari legend is utterly useless in SPvP environment, so your only options are Dwarf and, to some extent Shiro (even more memes). So basically if you choose Salvation, you really can't take the legend it was designed for. Did I mention that you also waste Serene Rejuvenation as you won't have a tablet?

So yeah, sadly, it's a meme trait for rev. Used to work, and still works quite well with Sanctuary runes. But imho, with all CC / condi etc flying around, you are better off taking Retribution instead. It gives you same damage reduction, arguably more sustain through more frequent dodges and Weakness application.

As for Song of the Mysts, it's a nice trait, but the 25 extra energy from Charged Mysts is just too good to not take.

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The way shroud works is a poor implementation version that basically promotes it as a carry mechanic. It being as effective as it is it should have a 30 sec or more icd. Yeah allow skills and traits to regen shroud but make the ability only usable again after a moderate icd cuz as it stands now it just rewards bad play, ad does a lot of mechanics in this game.

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Ah... Barrier...

In itself, the extra health bubble is fine, for me the real issue with the mechanic is that it stack. The fact that barrier stack make taking multiple source of barrier stronger almost imbalance. In game it translate with people stacking the professions that grant barrier. It's less an issue in sPvP but in WvW, half of the "scourge issue" came from barrier stacking.

So I wouldn't say that the mechanism is healthy for the game atm. It might be if it didn't stack thought (I say might, because barrier numbers would have to be rebalanced properly).

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@"Dadnir.5038" said:Ah... Barrier...

In itself, the extra health bubble is fine, for me the real issue with the mechanic is that it stack. The fact that barrier stack make taking multiple source of barrier stronger almost imbalance. In game it translate with people stacking the professions that grant barrier. It's less an issue in sPvP but in WvW, half of the "scourge issue" came from barrier stacking.

So I wouldn't say that the mechanism is healthy for the game atm. It might be if it didn't stack thought (I say might, because barrier numbers would have to be rebalanced properly).

Having barrier not stack would make it feel pretty bad as a mechanic, tho.People already dislike that some unique effects like superspeed are not stacking but just overwriting each other. Barrier would be an even worse case in my opinion.

Not to mention that rebalancing barrier around not being able to stack would create some problems. For example, scrapper would need yet another complete rework since the trait that converts 15% of damage would become absolute garbage.Which then raises the question: how to properly implement barrier into scrapper? I like it thematically that scrappers are constantly shielding themselves.

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@Kodama.6453 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:Ah... Barrier...

In itself, the extra health bubble is fine, for me the real issue with the mechanic is that it stack. The fact that barrier stack make taking multiple source of barrier stronger almost imbalance. In game it translate with people stacking the professions that grant barrier. It's less an issue in sPvP but in WvW, half of the "scourge issue" came from barrier stacking.

So I wouldn't say that the mechanism is healthy for the game atm. It might be if it didn't stack thought (I say might, because barrier numbers would have to be rebalanced properly).

Having barrier not stack would make it feel pretty bad as a mechanic, tho.People already dislike that some unique effects like superspeed are not stacking but just overwriting each other. Barrier would be an even worse case in my opinion.

Not to mention that rebalancing barrier around not being able to stack would create some problems. For example, scrapper would need yet another complete rework since the trait that converts 15% of damage would become absolute garbage.Which then raises the question: how to properly implement barrier into scrapper? I like it thematically that scrappers are constantly shielding themselves.

Read ur last statement..... u like that scrappers are constantly shielding themselves lol in pve sure but in a pvp mode no class should be able to constantly shield or shroud themselves including block access of the likes of guards, the pvp in this game has evolved into a game of whose class has stronger carry mechanics and not who's more skilled, part of the reason pvp pops declining, for most even winning isnt fun if ur being carried by ur class mechanics just like stomping a team in pvp is as much fun as being stomped.

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Mixed reaction.

The mechanic is good and healthy when it's a relatively large amount with a moderate to large cooldown. In that capacity, it forces the player to use athe barrier ability at the optimal time, and allows the opponent to plan around the period between barriers. It fits best on builds which can't quickly escape or are designed for sustained close-range combat. Think of it like a limited channeled block ability.

Where is not good is smeared over everything in small amounts. At that point, it's the same as extra HP or healing.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

Read ur last statement..... u like that scrappers are constantly shielding themselves lol in pve sure but in a pvp mode no class should be able to constantly shield or shroud themselves including block access of the likes of guards, the pvp in this game has evolved into a game of whose class has stronger carry mechanics and not who's more skilled, part of the reason pvp pops declining, for most even winning isnt fun if ur being carried by ur class mechanics just like stomping a team in pvp is as much fun as being stomped.

Scrapper's barrier application is fairly healthy in my opinion, since it is restricted by the amount of strike damage he deals. You won't get a constant influx by applying conditions on enemies and let them tick, you have to constantly hit them.

And scrapper is fairly kitable if you know what you are doing. One of the major problems of scrapper's hammer is that you are not able to stick to your target well.

Another thing to consider: CC. If you can CC the scrapper, that disables them from attacking, which means their barrier generation stops and scrapper's have a lower health pool than core engineer's because of the vitality penalty.

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@Kodama.6453 said:

Read ur last statement..... u like that scrappers are constantly shielding themselves lol in pve sure but in a pvp mode no class should be able to constantly shield or shroud themselves including block access of the likes of guards, the pvp in this game has evolved into a game of whose class has stronger carry mechanics and not who's more skilled, part of the reason pvp pops declining, for most even winning isnt fun if ur being carried by ur class mechanics just like stomping a team in pvp is as much fun as being stomped.

Scrapper's barrier application is fairly healthy in my opinion, since it is restricted by the amount of strike damage he deals. You won't get a constant influx by applying conditions on enemies and let them tick, you have to constantly hit them.

And scrapper is fairly kitable if you know what you are doing. One of the major problems of scrapper's hammer is that you are not able to stick to your target well.

Another thing to consider: CC. If you can CC the scrapper, that disables them from attacking, which means their barrier generation stops and scrapper's have a lower health pool than core engineer's because of the vitality penalty.

I get what ur saying and not saying ur wrong. Imo though other changes should be made be it a slight buff to scrappers offense or other changes to scrappers defensive skills to allow a mechanic to be a effective defensive aid at the right times requiring skill instead of just shield or barrier spam, same goes for necro. The classes need these mechanics to be viable no doubt but they shouldn't be the only reason a class is sustainable. Like scrapper changes to necro should be done to allow shroud to be a skillful and tactical boost to survivability that complements good play along with other defensive options but as its implemented now it's just a spammy carry mechanic that rewards careless play. Guards are no different either as a good guard can mitigate most of the bursts from three players doing their burst rotation one after the other on the guard, with all the damage mitigation abilities and their cd's guards can just spam their defences all while passively burning its opponents lol, not I have to save my blocks for the hard hitting skills and tactically use them to servive these burst rotations, I can just spam em. yes they have low hp but there's a line that has been crossed. Gw2 is becoming synonymous with these braindead type playstyles and is venturing further away from any complexities the game had.

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@ollbirtan.2915 said:

@ollbirtan.2915 said:Btw, Revs also have barrier trait in Ventari. Nice for meme builds in pvp, and only useful when hand kiting Deimos lol :)I don t find it as useless as you. It's a source of constant (small) sustain any build needs to be viable. Especially in tf where you can easily end up with 5+ boons.You forgot song of mist + dwarf. I believe this will be the next broken thing on rev.

I don't find it completely useless, and I myself use it sometimes in spvp. The reason I call it a meme, is because of lazy / incoherent implementation by anet. The Resilient Spirit barrier trait is in Salvation traitline which was initially designed as rev's healing / support traitline. The thing is, that if you take Salvation in pve, you don't take Resilient Spirit, but rather go for healing modifying traits and use Ventari legend.In sPvP, however, if you take Salvation - you don't have much choice, and are bound to take 2(or 1) - 2 -2. BUT Ventari legend is utterly useless in SPvP environment, so your only options are Dwarf and, to some extent Shiro (even more memes). So basically if you choose Salvation, you really can't take the legend it was designed for. Did I mention that you also waste Serene Rejuvenation as you won't have a tablet?

So yeah, sadly, it's a meme trait for rev. Used to work, and still works quite well with Sanctuary runes. But imho, with all CC / condi etc flying around, you are better off taking Retribution instead. It gives you same damage reduction, arguably more sustain through more frequent dodges and Weakness application.

As for Song of the Mysts, it's a nice trait, but the 25 extra energy from Charged Mysts is just too good to not take.

I prefer Song of the Mists, it's quick and the bonuses are just as good depending on what you use, such as Ventari it provides a heal on the go rather than having to manually do it yourself. Ventari can also work without Salvation because it's not like the healing improvements affect yourself anyway, it's all and only team oriented for 80% of it, Jalis is extremely good as it works with the Legend perfectly while providing equal if not occasionally better sustain than what Glint wish to achieve. It can nullify a burst almost just as well way more often too, the more targets definitely pays off too.

All the more less telegraphed because your momentum gets ruined by having to manage 10%.

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@Tayga.3192 said:Scourge heal should heal more and give less aoe barrier, weaver shouldn't run around with 90% barrier uptime etc

Otherwise it's fair

They have to take bolstered elements, invigorating strikes, stone resonance as well as running a heal stat amulet to make that happen. That's an awful lot of focus on barrier to have enough of it to have a big impact. And as with your offense, the enemy has but to walk away to nullify its effect.

I'd be fine with them getting rid of big barrier on weaver, but they had better redesign the traits. Nerfing the barrier values or increasing cooldowns is simply going to make these traits useless.

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@AliamRationem.5172 said:They have to take bolstered elements, invigorating strikes, stone resonance as well as running a heal stat amulet to make that happen. That's an awful lot of focus on barrier to have enough of it to have a big impact. And as with your offense, the enemy has but to walk away to nullify its effect.

I'd be fine with them getting rid of big barrier on weaver, but they had better redesign the traits. Nerfing the barrier values or increasing cooldowns is simply going to make these traits useless.

I'd say weaver has no real reason to have barrier access. Give it a proper stunbreak and rest of the stuff can be revitalized as something else entirely.

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I think that Barrier is pretty balanced on other classes, for example Warrior's Barrier from WH is just right. Its just a bit much on Scourge because they have so much of it, some of that should probably be replaced with healing, which they have little of.

I would like to see more Barrier in the game, just on Core classes and builds.

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