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Ranger and Thief relegated to small scale...when others can both zerg and small scale fight


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@mindcircus.1506 said:Most comms would be happy if your average ranger could Push on tag, keep their supply up and build on time....

I gotta admit, it does get kinda frustrating to be pug-tagged pirateshipping enemies at 900 range and realize that half your group is rangers standing, like, 1200 units behind you when they could easily just be 300-600 units behind you and still contribute the bulk of their damage on-target.

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Immob soulbeast and ranger are both accepted in most squads, just tell them you're running the right build instead of a roaming build. Staff daredevil is also accepted in most squads.

The key is that you have to be actually good at using those classes, if you're pulling the same damage as a support class then you need to improve or use an easier class.

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@"RisenHowl.2419" said:Immob soulbeast and ranger are both accepted in most squads, just tell them you're running the right build instead of a roaming build. Staff daredevil is also accepted in most squads.

The key is that you have to be actually good at using those classes, if you're pulling the same damage as a support class then you need to improve or use an easier class.

Where are these TOP dmg "immobilize soulbeast" and most of all.......where is your ranger?

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@mindcircus.1506 said:

@"Arheundel.6451" said:
snip

The reason Ranger has no place in many zergs has to do with the braindead way the vast majority of players use the class.Stance Share and Immob spam are excellent contributors in WvW groups. Druid can do condi clear on a competitive level with Spellbreaker and Firebrand.A good soulbeast absolutely has a place in a t1 zerg.

But what do "Ranger mains" do?Pew pew uselessly from the top of walls and squirrel off tag ad-nauseum hoping for a scrap of WxP.They get constantly jebaited out of position, they think nothing about what they bring to groups.They rock Longbow like it's the only weapon in their kit ignoring the value that Axe and GS can bring.They LB4 targets out of melee's position instead of using the skill situationally, and they think Barrage is acceptable damage.

Most comms would be happy if your average ranger could Push on tag, keep their supply up and build on time....But you know what?Most "Ranger mains" can't manage these simple tasks and somehow think it's the job of an elite spec to give them a place in a zerg instead of just playing at the same minimum standard as the rest of us.

Do you even have a ranger to speak so badly about those actually maining it? I do have a warrior fully geared, I can roam and zerg with it np, I like to run tactics/spellbreaker build.....what about you on ranger?

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@Crazy.6029 said:Anet just needs to give Rangers and teefs AoE Boons/heals/damage that is better than other classes, then boom, they are in. It's all about the boon ball AoE. Maybe next expansion they will do this. Hopefully though they kill the boon ball. Give either of these classes a hammer with a huge aoe on it and they will be in the club.

Put that thief on boon steal and start dismantling the other blob. One or two key support either killed or pulled out of their core for a bit can cascade pretty fast. You don't want to give thief any more boons, especially if that option were available on Deadeye with Premeditation. I can already line up a lot of boons, but another source would make it too sustainable. There are usually enough heals going around already, thief has one of the easier Blasts and it's effective, especially when the squad your covering is slowly trying to walk out of or into someplace. You could try to build around Shadow Savior but you'd mess up your stat thresholds building around it, though Anet could boost that one a bit, but only the heal ally part, I'm already siphoning life from blinds on Shortbow 5 which is considered a Shadowstep.

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@kash.9213 said:

@Crazy.6029 said:Anet just needs to give Rangers and teefs AoE Boons/heals/damage that is better than other classes, then boom, they are in. It's all about the boon ball AoE. Maybe next expansion they will do this. Hopefully though they kill the boon ball. Give either of these classes a hammer with a huge aoe on it and they will be in the club.

Put that thief on boon steal and start dismantling the other blob. One or two key support either killed or pulled out of their core for a bit can cascade pretty fast. You don't want to give thief any more boons, especially if that option were available on Deadeye with Premeditation. I can already line up a lot of boons, but another source would make it too sustainable. There are usually enough heals going around already, thief has one of the easier Blasts and it's effective, especially when the squad your covering is slowly trying to walk out of or into someplace. You could try to build around Shadow Savior but you'd mess up your stat thresholds building around it, though Anet could boost that one a bit, but only the heal ally part, I'm already siphoning life from blinds on Shortbow 5 which is considered a Shadowstep.

Lemme clarify, shareable AoE Boons/heals plus Aoe damage. Im not saying that they cant contribute to the zerg in any positive way of course they can, why not mix it up, let them be meta for a while. It wouldn't bother me to read in T chat, LFM THieves pub 1 discord...or whatever. Why not?

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@Crazy.6029 said:

@Crazy.6029 said:Anet just needs to give Rangers and teefs AoE Boons/heals/damage that is better than other classes, then boom, they are in. It's all about the boon ball AoE. Maybe next expansion they will do this. Hopefully though they kill the boon ball. Give either of these classes a hammer with a huge aoe on it and they will be in the club.

Put that thief on boon steal and start dismantling the other blob. One or two key support either killed or pulled out of their core for a bit can cascade pretty fast. You don't want to give thief any more boons, especially if that option were available on Deadeye with Premeditation. I can already line up a lot of boons, but another source would make it too sustainable. There are usually enough heals going around already, thief has one of the easier Blasts and it's effective, especially when the squad your covering is slowly trying to walk out of or into someplace. You could try to build around Shadow Savior but you'd mess up your stat thresholds building around it, though Anet could boost that one a bit, but only the heal ally part, I'm already siphoning life from blinds on Shortbow 5 which is considered a Shadowstep.

Lemme clarify, shareable AoE Boons/heals plus Aoe damage. Im not saying that they cant contribute to the zerg in any positive way of course they can, why not mix it up, let them be meta for a while. It wouldn't bother me to read in T chat, LFM THieves pub 1 discord...or whatever. Why not?

If the thief gets any of that shareable AoE it could be too strong, I could see Anet messing with Initiative even more than they have recently. I can move tightly with a group or squad when needed, but I also need to be free to bounce and hit up something else real quick, being "meta" sounds limiting for a thief. If AoE support was baked into weapon skills, that would probably result in a hit to Initiative. They could re-work one or two of the new Preparations to implement what you're suggesting, which wouldn't dislodge some other aspect since they're already in place and they could be regulated without messing with the rest of the class much.

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The reason Ranger has no place in many zergs has to do with the braindead way the vast majority of players use the class.Stance Share and Immob spam are excellent contributors in WvW groups. Druid can do condi clear on a competitive level with Spellbreaker and Firebrand.A good soulbeast absolutely has a place in a t1 zerg.

But what do "Ranger mains" do?Pew pew uselessly from the top of walls and squirrel off tag ad-nauseum hoping for a scrap of WxP.They get constantly jebaited out of position, they think nothing about what they bring to groups.They rock Longbow like it's the only weapon in their kit ignoring the value that Axe and GS can bring.They LB4 targets out of melee's position instead of using the skill situationally, and they think Barrage is acceptable damage.

Most comms would be happy if your average ranger could Push on tag, keep their supply up and build on time....But you know what?Most "Ranger mains" can't manage these simple tasks and somehow think it's the job of an elite spec to give them a place in a zerg instead of just playing at the same minimum standard as the rest of us.

Do you even have a ranger to speak so badly about those actually maining it? I do have a warrior fully geared, I can roam and zerg with it np, I like to run
tactics/spellbreaker
build.....what about you on ranger?I run Two ranger builds in WvW. I "mained" Ranger for the first 3-4 months I played this game in both PvE and WvW. I understand the class pretty well.I have no problem getting in a group because I pull my weight. I my server has been T1 for a while.That said...Neither I, nor Risen Howl need to actually play the class to see full well just how AWFUL most WvW Rangers are.Arc shows the substandard performance and lack of contribution, the corpses show the ineptitude, and the forum qq by players who think Anet needs provide them a guaranteed spot in a group tells the rest of the tale.Those of us who actually understand the kit know this is a issue with an entire class' level of play, not the class itself.

Play better. Encourage other Rangers to play better. Meet the same expectations other players are instead of asking Anet for yet another crutch.It's the actual answer.

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@ASP.8093 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:Most comms would be happy if your average ranger could Push on tag, keep their supply up and build on time....

I gotta admit, it does get kinda frustrating to be pug-tagged pirateshipping enemies at 900 range and realize that half your group is rangers standing, like, 1200 units behind you when they could easily just be 300-600 units behind you and still contribute the bulk of their damage on-target.And the majority of them just dont care to make an actual contribution.

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The reason Ranger has no place in many zergs has to do with the braindead way the vast majority of players use the class.Stance Share and Immob spam are excellent contributors in WvW groups. Druid can do condi clear on a competitive level with Spellbreaker and Firebrand.A good soulbeast absolutely has a place in a t1 zerg.

But what do "Ranger mains" do?Pew pew uselessly from the top of walls and squirrel off tag ad-nauseum hoping for a scrap of WxP.They get constantly jebaited out of position, they think nothing about what they bring to groups.They rock Longbow like it's the only weapon in their kit ignoring the value that Axe and GS can bring.They LB4 targets out of melee's position instead of using the skill situationally, and they think Barrage is acceptable damage.

Most comms would be happy if your average ranger could Push on tag, keep their supply up and build on time....But you know what?Most "Ranger mains" can't manage these simple tasks and somehow think it's the job of an elite spec to give them a place in a zerg instead of just playing at the same minimum standard as the rest of us.

Do you even have a ranger to speak so badly about those actually maining it? I do have a warrior fully geared, I can roam and zerg with it np, I like to run
tactics/spellbreaker
build.....what about you on ranger?I run Two ranger builds in WvW. I "mained" Ranger for the first 3-4 months I played this game in both PvE and WvW. I understand the class pretty well.I have no problem getting in a group because I pull my weight. I my server has been T1 for a while.That said...Neither I, nor Risen Howl need to actually play the class to see full well just how AWFUL most WvW Rangers are.Arc shows the substandard performance and lack of contribution, the corpses show the ineptitude, and the forum qq by players who think Anet needs provide them a guaranteed spot in a group tells the rest of the tale.Those of us who actually understand the kit know this is a issue with an entire class' level of play, not the class itself.

Play better. Encourage other Rangers to play better. Meet the same expectations other players are instead of asking Anet for yet another crutch.It's the actual answer.

You make loads of assumptions without prior knowledge of the parties involved...your whole argument is based on assumptions...I don't make assumptions. I only need to repost part of your comment here :

@mindcircus.1506 said: Druid can do condi clear on a competitive level with Spellbreaker and Firebrand

On the forum everybody act like a God of PvP but it's quite easy in the end to dismantle their arguments , drop the act already....you should at the very least have description knowledge of what you pretend to know

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Druidic_Clarity

Please stop embarrassing yourself any further

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@God.2708 said:

How is the lack of ranged aoe weapons a myth?

A ranger can chill at the top of damage meters with barrage by itself. I've done it.

So you TOP the damage meter with barrage...ok...video pls...pls...PLEASE

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/95962795765415936/735631781251776542/unknown.png

Apparently didn't record that particular night, but do have a video of my very first time trying it. Started the fight late (can see from the time discrepancy) but managed to hold at ~the DPS levels of some INCREDIBLY GOOD scourges and heralds. Wasn't even a competition vs an average or bad one. Don't have access to the computer with the video atm so the screen will have to do.

I probably wouldn't stack this in a zerg, though I've tried something akin to that as jokes and it was far more effective than people would have you believe. But, if you want a zerg to be stacked with rangers frankly I don't find that appealing at all. I'd rather have classes have strengths and weaknesses to the point that in a 25 man zerg you want to run 15+ different specializations to be truly effective. A soulbeast or two running around doing what I'm doing is very much in line with that, and people have posted several different builds that do that with.

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@God.2708 said:

@God.2708 said:

How is the lack of ranged aoe weapons a myth?

A ranger can chill at the top of damage meters with barrage by itself. I've done it.

So you TOP the damage meter with barrage...ok...video pls...pls...PLEASE

Apparently didn't record that particular night, but do have a video of my very first time trying it. Started the fight late (can see from the time discrepancy) but managed to hold at ~the DPS levels of some INCREDIBLY GOOD scourges and heralds. Wasn't even a competition vs an average or bad one. Don't have access to the computer with the video atm so the screen will have to do.

I probably wouldn't stack this in a zerg, though I've tried something akin to that as jokes and it was far more effective than people would have you believe. But, if you want a zerg to be stacked with rangers frankly I don't find that appealing at all. I'd rather have classes have strengths and weaknesses to the point that in a 25 man zerg you want to run 15+ different specializations to be truly effective. A soulbeast or two running around doing what I'm doing is very much in line with that, and people have posted several different builds that do that with.

1m difference to get 2-3x more DPS than you who is forced to use 40s+ CD utilities/elites to gain that short window of dmg : sic'em + one wolf pack? But whatever I am not here to discuss what people consider good, made the thread more as a reminder. It's 2020 and almost all professions basically get to enjoy small and large scale but when it comes to rangers or thieves this should not be allowed other than for some personal bias .

Some people still going with their drama act : ranger and thief best roamers which is now factually not true

I can jump on guardian and load burn dragon hunter and destroy all but the best ranger/thief player out there...when I am tired of roaming I can load burning core guard and spamm 2-3 with the staff and sword of justice off CD to go and collect 30-40 bags within 1hr at worst......where are the weaknesses here?, I am not asking for nerfs here, I do main guardian also so I know what I am talking about...not like the guy before you who claimed that Druid could clear condis from allies like a firebrand...I don't talk out of my behind....

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The reason Ranger has no place in many zergs has to do with the braindead way the vast majority of players use the class.Stance Share and Immob spam are excellent contributors in WvW groups. Druid can do condi clear on a competitive level with Spellbreaker and Firebrand.A good soulbeast absolutely has a place in a t1 zerg.

But what do "Ranger mains" do?Pew pew uselessly from the top of walls and squirrel off tag ad-nauseum hoping for a scrap of WxP.They get constantly jebaited out of position, they think nothing about what they bring to groups.They rock Longbow like it's the only weapon in their kit ignoring the value that Axe and GS can bring.They LB4 targets out of melee's position instead of using the skill situationally, and they think Barrage is acceptable damage.

Most comms would be happy if your average ranger could Push on tag, keep their supply up and build on time....But you know what?Most "Ranger mains" can't manage these simple tasks and somehow think it's the job of an elite spec to give them a place in a zerg instead of just playing at the same minimum standard as the rest of us.

Do you even have a ranger to speak so badly about those actually maining it? I do have a warrior fully geared, I can roam and zerg with it np, I like to run
tactics/spellbreaker
build.....what about you on ranger?I run Two ranger builds in WvW. I "mained" Ranger for the first 3-4 months I played this game in both PvE and WvW. I understand the class pretty well.I have no problem getting in a group because I pull my weight. I my server has been T1 for a while.That said...Neither I, nor Risen Howl need to actually play the class to see full well just how AWFUL most WvW Rangers are.Arc shows the substandard performance and lack of contribution, the corpses show the ineptitude, and the forum qq by players who think Anet needs provide them a guaranteed spot in a group tells the rest of the tale.Those of us who actually understand the kit know this is a issue with an entire class' level of play, not the class itself.

Play better. Encourage other Rangers to play better. Meet the same expectations other players are instead of asking Anet for yet another crutch.It's the actual answer.

You make loads of assumptions without prior knowledge of the parties involved...your whole argument is based on assumptions...
I don't make assumptions
. I only need to repost part of your comment here :I use Data.

@mindcircus.1506 said: Druid can do condi clear on a competitive level with Spellbreaker and Firebrand

On the forum everybody act like a God of PvP but it's quite easy in the end to dismantle their arguments , drop the act already....you should at the very least have description knowledge of what you pretend to know

Please stop embarrassing yourself any further
But please.... go on about how well you understand Ranger.
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@Arheundel.6451 said:

1m difference to get 2-3x more DPS than you who is forced to use 40s+ CD utilities/elites to gain that short window of dmg : sic'em + one wolf pack? But whatever I am not here to discuss what people consider good, made the thread more as a reminder. It's 2020 and almost all professions basically get to enjoy small and large scale but when it comes to rangers or thieves this should not be allowed other than for some personal bias .

Some people still going with their drama act : ranger and thief best roamers which is now factually not true

I can jump on guardian and load burn dragon hunter and destroy all but the best ranger/thief player out there...when I am tired of roaming I can load burning core guard and spamm 2-3 with the staff and sword of justice off CD to go and collect 30-40 bags within 1hr at worst......where are the weaknesses here?, I am not asking for nerfs here, I do main guardian also so I know what I am talking about...not like the guy before you who claimed that Druid could clear condis from allies like a firebrand...I don't talk out of my behind....

Edit: Build was GS + LB with stance share Dolyak + Bear + OWP, with QZ and signet of the hunt.

One minute to get ~1.4x my DPS on the first night I was playing with the build (though not my first time on a ranger). And again, exceptionally good revenant. Average revenant will sit at 2.5k over a fight that long, at best. Average scourge especially post nerf is more like 1.5k to maybe 2k.

A druid can competitively clear conditions with a firebrand too, the other support it offers just isn't interesting in a way that makes you want one in every party.

And I don't understand your question. I can sit on that build and one shot a banner from 1.5k range away before they can even engage their skills and then sit there running in and out of my zerg and maintain close to herald DPS and I don't even HAVE TO CHANGE MY BUILD. Though I could.

You had your answer in the very first comment. If you're addressing frustration at inept commanders not properly adapting or not being willing to risk dealing with bad rangers, that's fair. There might be some merit to the argument that Rangers don't enjoy a low skill floor build that can just AFK in a zerg and still accomplish their general class purpose (though I'd argue that isn't a thing for any class now). Overall Rangers enjoy several builds that can fit somewhat nicely into a zerg and can alternate back and forth to it from their roaming build. You just don't need a zerg full of them, but really anyone saying you need a zerg full of scourges is full of kitten too.

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"RisenHowl.2419" said:Immob soulbeast and ranger are both accepted in most squads, just tell them you're running the right build instead of a roaming build. Staff daredevil is also accepted in most squads.

The key is that you have to be actually good at using those classes, if you're pulling the same damage as a support class then you need to improve or use an easier class.

Where are these TOP dmg "immobilize soulbeast" and most of all.......
where is your ranger?

slb isn't generally going to top damage, but that's a little different from doing the same damage as a support right? Even in good hands it falls somewhere in the middle of the pack. The immob bombs he's dropping though are evident in those clips, we can clip off 3-5 people per engage pretty reliably in the first 5s because they can't dodge the melee bomb. That sets our squad up to win rally wars =D

Bear stance and dolyak stance are top tier support skills in a zerg, dolyak stance in particular when it's in the tag's party since they're the ones most likely to get hit by immob/chill/cripple etc. during a push.

I am not particularly good at playing ranger, which is why i haven't made any public videos about it. I've seen enough competent soulbeasts at work though to know it works well.

I can say that staff daredevil works fine, even when it's not something I get to play often:

Which again, brings me to the issue of player skill. If you're not good at using that class and can't get good results in a zerg, that's on you.

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@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:Immob soulbeast and ranger are both accepted in most squads, just tell them you're running the right build instead of a roaming build. Staff daredevil is also accepted in most squads.slb isn't generally going to top damage, but that's a little different from doing the same damage as a support right? Even in good hands it falls somewhere in the middle of the pack. The immob bombs he's dropping though are evident in those clips, we can clip off 3-5 people per engage pretty reliably in the first 5s because they can't dodge the melee bomb. That sets our squad up to win rally wars =DSoulbeast does not have an immob build, do please play with the class before saying this kind of clueless things. Entangle is a 60s CD skill for god's sake.Druid on the other hand is the actual "immob" ranger thing you are referring to thanks to Ancient Seeds trait. Druid brings nothing else of consequence (not even noticeable heals) if it builds for immobilize.

Immobilize builds are only a thing if your Firebrands, Scrappers, tempest and warriors aren't doing their job. With 300 conversions on average you should not feel any immob while playing.Immob builds are very annoying in small scale however.

Bear stance and dolyak stance are top tier support skills in a zerg, dolyak stance in particular when it's in the tag's party since they're the ones most likely to get hit by immob/chill/cripple etc. during a push.Stance sharing is hot garbage right now. Until the Leader of the Pack can share the 100% duration with squad and not the 50% as until now, support soulbeast only shines in public zergs with very bad players. I have written a couple of forum posts with all the receipts you may ask for. One in Wvw another in the ranger subforum.

I am not particularly good at playing ranger, which is why i haven't made any public videos about it. I've seen enough competent soulbeasts at work though to know it works well.Don't worry most of the people on this thread clearly they don't know what they are talking about when it's regarding thief and ranger.

I can say that staff daredevil works fine, even when it's not something I get to play often:Daredevil can work in squad comps. The problem is the class is very unfun to play while doing that and brings absolutely nothing to the squad. Spamming Vault while pushing doesn't have any risks (because of the perma evasion) and brings very little rewards. And at the end again brings nothing for the rest of the squad so it doesn't make a case to be wanted or desired.

I > @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Give Soulbeast a weapon like rev hammer and it would instantly be meta for zerging.

But why even talk about it.We told anet that it was always the weapon choice that holds ranger back.

They should give every class a new weapon baseline to fix problems like that.

Kitten, doesnt even need to be ranged. Just any non projectile weapon with decent aoe.

I fully agree with DanAlcedo.For soulbeast to have an spot in squads just needs:

  • Leader of the pack to share full duration with allies.
  • A weapon that can perform decently in zergs. Dagger/torch could be an option but the dagger needs a full rework.
  • Additionally and this is my opinion: Move the damage reduction from Doylak to Bear as that stance already has too many perks and after that also reduce the CD in sPvP as soulbeast needs access to that stab if Anet wants the soulbeast to use more melee (all stabs are in +60s CD).

And try out with that to see how it goes.

For thief it would need a full spec as DE is focus in Single target (same problem as ranger) with no utility and DD has not set of tools to benefit the squad.

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The thing is in blob fights those who have the most 5 targets or more soft cc hard cc and boon corrupt will win.

And being able to spam those ground target skills is they means to do it. If your class specializes on single targets then you have a special role. Either snip the com/kill necros and revs and scrappers.

Based on my first premise classes with single targets will have it hard no matter how good they are especially if the ae enemy is a range spammer.

The few things you can do to counter their dominance is 1. Stealth 2. Superspeed 3. Damage. Then again 10 ppl dropping guardian staff 3 and 2 on you will probably end up killing you and not to mention you'll have to pass 10 revs dropping hammer 2. And 20 scourges spamming marks and 10 eles spamming meteors.

Just choose you ur battle. And thrive by killing the stragglers or the enemy necros Revs and scrappers. Or their commander.

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@anduriell.6280 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:Immob soulbeast and ranger are both accepted in most squads, just tell them you're running the right build instead of a roaming build. Staff daredevil is also accepted in most squads.slb isn't generally going to top damage, but that's a little different from doing the same damage as a support right? Even in good hands it falls somewhere in the middle of the pack. The immob bombs he's dropping though are evident in those clips, we can clip off 3-5 people per engage pretty reliably in the first 5s because they can't dodge the melee bomb. That sets our squad up to win rally wars =DSoulbeast does not have an immob build, do please play with the class before saying this kind of clueless things. Entangle is a 60s CD skill for god's sake.Druid on the other hand is the actual "immob" ranger thing you are referring to thanks to Ancient Seeds trait. Druid brings nothing else of consequence (not even noticeable heals) if it builds for immobilize.

Immobilize builds are only a thing if your Firebrands, Scrappers, tempest and warriors aren't doing their job. With 300 conversions on average you should not feel any immob while playing.
Immob builds are very annoying in small scale however.

Bear stance and dolyak stance are top tier support skills in a zerg, dolyak stance in particular when it's in the tag's party since they're the ones most likely to get hit by immob/chill/cripple etc. during a push.Stance sharing is hot garbage right now. Until the Leader of the Pack can share the 100% duration with squad and not the 50% as until now, support soulbeast only shines in public zergs with very bad players. I have written a couple of forum posts with all the receipts you may ask for. One in Wvw another in the ranger subforum.

I
am not particularly good at playing ranger, which is why i haven't made any public videos about it. I've
seen
enough competent soulbeasts at work though to know it works well.Don't worry most of the people on this thread clearly they don't know what they are talking about when it's regarding thief and ranger.

I
can
say that staff daredevil works fine, even when it's not something I get to play often:Daredevil can work in squad comps. The problem is the class is very unfun to play while doing that and brings absolutely nothing to the squad. Spamming Vault while pushing doesn't have any risks (because of the perma evasion) and brings very little rewards. And at the end again brings nothing for the rest of the squad so it doesn't make a case to be wanted or desired.

I > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

Give Soulbeast a weapon like rev hammer and it would instantly be meta for zerging.

But why even talk about it.We told anet that it was always the weapon choice that holds ranger back.

They should give every class a new weapon baseline to fix problems like that.

Kitten, doesnt even need to be ranged. Just any non projectile weapon with decent aoe.

I fully agree with DanAlcedo.For soulbeast to have an spot in squads just needs:
  • Leader of the pack to share full duration with allies.
  • A weapon that can perform decently in zergs. Dagger/torch could be an option but the dagger needs a full rework.
  • Additionally and this is my opinion: Move the damage reduction from Doylak to Bear as that stance already has too many perks and after that also reduce the CD in sPvP as soulbeast needs access to that stab if Anet wants the soulbeast to use more melee (all stabs are in +60s CD).

And try out with that to see how it goes.

For thief it would need a full spec as DE is focus in Single target (same problem as ranger) with no utility and DD has not set of tools to benefit the squad.

What the worst is that stance share feels like it was designed for WvW.

But on the same time "lets troll rangers by giving them a dagger loloololol".

Hammer would fit the theme and given rangers an EZ zerg build.

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I think the difficulty with having this discussion is the distinction between viable and meta. No one is saying that a Ranger or Thief can’t be successful in a zerg fight or have the best DPS. They just aren’t as effective or consistent as other professions.

For example, imagine the worst case scenario. A fight with 50 vs 50 who are currently pirate shipping through a choke point. Due to the number of players there is a lot of AOE. The choke point prevents you from attacking edges to get closer. Projectile hate blocks or reflects most of your ranged attacks. A thief won’t be able to do much in this situation. A Ranger is limited to using Barrage and Druid staff attacks. This is why Elementalists, Necromancers, and Revenants are usually better damage options.

Do you put yourself at a disadvantage by playing a Ranger or Thief in a zerg? Yes. Do you put your entire team at a disadvantage by running these professions in a zerg? Yes. This doesn’t mean that they can’t be played. I just want to emphasize that they aren’t the optimal choice.

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@"Dagger.2035" said:I think the difficulty with having this discussion is the distinction between viable and meta. No one is saying that a Ranger or Thief can’t be successful in a zerg fight or have the best DPS. They just aren’t as effective or consistent as other professions.

For example, imagine the worst case scenario. A fight with 50 vs 50 who are currently pirate shipping through a choke point. Due to the number of players there is a lot of AOE. The choke point prevents you from attacking edges to get closer. Projectile hate blocks or reflects most of your ranged attacks. A thief won’t be able to do much in this situation. A Ranger is limited to using Barrage and Druid staff attacks. This is why Elementalists, Necromancers, and Revenants are usually better damage options.

Do you put yourself at a disadvantage by playing a Ranger or Thief in a zerg? Yes. Do you put your entire team at a disadvantage by running these professions in a zerg? Yes. This doesn’t mean that they can’t be played. I just want to emphasize that they aren’t the optimal choice.

The point of the thread is that other professions now have optimal builds both for zerging and small scale leaving ranger and thief relegated to just small scale, that's simply not fair and ofc....you will always people advocating against fairness as long as they get their way first.

Hammer rev?...they have condi and power herald roaming buildsScourge?..they have obnoxious signet core necro and reaper for roamingFb?...they have burn/power dragonhunter and coreScrapper?...easy holosmith and condi scrapper

Ranger and thief are still good at running and that's it, other professions can easily overwhelm and outpace any ranger/thief build thrown in their face so the whole argument : best roamer class...goes out of the window and I know that because I do play other professions against ranger/thief and they are the easiest ones to kill in duels by a mile compared to say a condi rev, a "never die" holo or scrapper or core necro or even damn dragon hunter with several blocks where it seems to get forever before you can get through all of them

A single rotation on my burn guardian and 3/4 of the ranger/thieves I meet in wvw will insta die......this argument best roaming class has stopped being true years ago. All roaming specs on ranger have been nerfed to the damn ground and it takes some serious effort now to overcome all the cheese other professions are capable of.

For all those nerfs there never was any resemblance of compensation in the case of a semi-viable zerg build...meanwhile you have classes like necro or guardian...

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@Dagger.2035 said:I think the difficulty with having this discussion is the distinction between viable and meta. No one is saying that a Ranger or Thief can’t be successful in a zerg fight or have the best DPS. They just aren’t as effective or consistent as other professions.

For example, imagine the worst case scenario. A fight with 50 vs 50 who are currently pirate shipping through a choke point. Due to the number of players there is a lot of AOE. The choke point prevents you from attacking edges to get closer. Projectile hate blocks or reflects most of your ranged attacks. A thief won’t be able to do much in this situation. A Ranger is limited to using Barrage and Druid staff attacks. This is why Elementalists, Necromancers, and Revenants are usually better damage options.

Do you put yourself at a disadvantage by playing a Ranger or Thief in a zerg? Yes. Do you put your entire team at a disadvantage by running these professions in a zerg? Yes. This doesn’t mean that they can’t be played. I just want to emphasize that they aren’t the optimal choice.

They ARE the optimal choice. See second post. Just because your commander is lazy or you don't see why they are doesn't mean they aren't. I don't know why people have to be broken records and repeat this over and over. The META as defined by metabattle is incredibly narrow in its vision because it's providing a simple structure for newer players/comms to perform fights easily. What's VIABLE is filling your zerg with scourges and firebrands, and what might be the issue is that doing so with soulbeasts and druids isn't and that makes people sad. But putting rangers in your zerg is 100% certainly the optimal way to play it.

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@God.2708 said:

@"Dagger.2035" said:I think the difficulty with having this discussion is the distinction between viable and meta. No one is saying that a Ranger or Thief can’t be successful in a zerg fight or have the best DPS. They just aren’t as effective or consistent as other professions.

For example, imagine the worst case scenario. A fight with 50 vs 50 who are currently pirate shipping through a choke point. Due to the number of players there is a lot of AOE. The choke point prevents you from attacking edges to get closer. Projectile hate blocks or reflects most of your ranged attacks. A thief won’t be able to do much in this situation. A Ranger is limited to using Barrage and Druid staff attacks. This is why Elementalists, Necromancers, and Revenants are usually better damage options.

Do you put yourself at a disadvantage by playing a Ranger or Thief in a zerg? Yes. Do you put your entire team at a disadvantage by running these professions in a zerg? Yes. This doesn’t mean that they can’t be played. I just want to emphasize that they aren’t the optimal choice.

They ARE the optimal choice. See second post. Just because your commander is lazy or you don't see why they are doesn't mean they aren't. I don't know why people have to be broken records and repeat this over and over. The META as defined by metabattle is incredibly narrow in its vision because it's providing a simple structure for newer players/comms to perform fights easily. What's VIABLE is filling your zerg with scourges and firebrands, and what might be the issue is that doing so with soulbeasts and druids isn't and that makes people sad. But putting rangers in your zerg is 100% certainly the optimal way to play it.

Do you know what this does?https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Resistance

Even better...have you ever faced a bunch of condi revs which are quite common in zergs these days?

Can you please stop proposing a noob stomper gimmick as OPTIMAL build?

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