Warrior Balance Requests Omnibus

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Mkay, so it appears that the mods are cleaning up some posts (TY btw). So to reiterate, please if you post something give reasoning. MOAR DEEPS is not a reason, and honestly this thread should be for the most part how to make things function properly rather than being a buff thread. If a weapon, skill, or trait is under performing or is not performing as it should say why, and how you feel it could be made better.

For instance most of us hate the current version of 100B. It is a long channel, self-rooted, and if you never hit that last strike, which is 95% of the time, then you would have been better off just auto attacking. Possible solutions are to remove the self-root, which is ideal but may require too much dev work to change the animation, increasing the damage on every strike, which would result in too much forum QQ and honestly the TOTAL damage of the skill is fine just poorly executed, or to reduce the channel time.

Reducing the channel time keeps the damage/cd the same but increases its burst potential which makes it more usable in higher end competitive play and helps increase the overall rotation DPS in PvE where it may then compete more easily with Axe.

For a comparison of its burst potential now look to its coefficient/cast time: 3.6/3.5s roughly 1.03. Without the final strike this is 2.8/3.5 or 0.8. The AA chain (total coefficient/total cast time) is 1.944/2.4s = 0.81 not including the vulnerability stacks. So if that last strike never hits you would have been better off just auto attacking.

The ratios for other notable burst skills:Whirling Axe: 5.595/3.5s = 1.60Whirling Wrath: 2.8/0.75s = 3.73 (not including the projectiles)Grave Digger: 1.82/1.25s = 1.456

Think of this is your bang for buck for the time spent executing the skill solely from a damage viewpoint, which is 100B's job. Even with a full channel it is worse of than other skills with similar jobs.

Reducing the channel time to 2s would bring this to 3.6/2s = 1.8 with the final strike and 1.4 without the final strike, either of which would be more in line with how other skills with similar purposes perform. I think this sort of change would help the skill without clunky rework of the animation and improve the flow of the weapon and actually let the skill shine in execution rather than on paper.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@"otto.5684" said:Unrelated, but from the the part quoting CMC. warrior power level being ideal is Hilarious, considering that warrior deals almost no damage. I guess sPvP is going from bunker mode to no death allowed mode. I really wish they get rid of the CMC dev. GW2 sPvP, for all its issues, was really fun back in the day. I cannot stand this CC, bunker slugfest.

Going slightly off topic here to address this part.

Here is the thing with that interpretation of it; he said Warrior is considered "around the ideal power level" and if, from what you're saying, it "deals almost no damage" that is more due to the fact that everything

else

is overtuned as opposed to Warrior's damage being

that

bad.

Personally I've still been able to deal damage on Warrior, its just that sort of across the board, even with Spellbreaker, it underperforms compared to other classes which means they are far more ideal to use to fulfill its "role" in either sPvP or WvW. The last couple of days I have done some roaming in WvW and some sPvP and while I have been able to 1vX a couple of times and beat classes like Reaper or otherwise in 1v1s, it definitely feels like an uphill battle when it comes to other classes just from the very beginning of any fight. I definitely understand where Necros were coming from more so now than I already did when they complained about having very little stability because that is where Warrior is right now, and we don't even get the benefits of teleports or a second health bar.

We have more endurance regen still, but the moment another player with just one more CC skill comes along you're pretty much done. If you get focused by just two people even in a small scale teamfight, again, you're pretty much dead unless you have someone pulsing enough Stability on you to save your hide. Whereas you still have classes like Holosmith, Scrapper, Soulbeast, Core Ranger, Firebrand, Guardian, and even Reaper and Scourge now have better access to Stability than Warrior does even in solo situations. I'd go into much more detail with this but that is pushing the offtopic too far and I'd rather not derail this thread.

Now to my actual feedback on something;@"Lan Deathrider.5910"

Defense:

Defy Pain: Defy Pain now provides Spiked Armor (5s) and Protection (5s) when struck below 50% HP and breaks stuns with a CD of 60s.

The first bit of this is par for the course, honestly, as it sort of runs in comparison to Emergency Elixir on Engineer. That trait had its invulnerability and passive stunbreak removed.

The passive stunbreaking on Last Stand was a big part of why it was unhealthy, how Defy Pain and Last Stand worked with their passive procs were what got them "nullified" in competitive modes in the first place, so we

really

need to steer clear of anything like that. You can't just shift the problem with one trait onto another one and think that it solves what had been an issue with it already. The trait would very much be fine on its own with just the 5s of Protection and 5s of Spiked Armor (Retaliation) when struck below 50% health, the passive stunbreak should inherently be a "no" to include on anything as it was a big part of the issue, I don't think any Warrior here posting and reading this thread should think otherwise. Why do you think Shrug It Off is even used at all? Because often times a CC has a condi attached to it, or a condi will be placed on you while you're CC'd, either accidentally or purposefully, and it will immediately break the CC for you. Granted there is a greater chance of it just getting burned before you ever get CC'd but that doesn't negate its effectiveness and its low 25 second ICD.

Well the issue really was the strength of the passive procs not the fact that they were passive. There are plenty of passives floating around without 300s CDs because they are not as strong as 3s of immunity to damage or 5s of immunity to critical hits + pulsing stability.

A passive proc for a small amount of damage reduction plus protection is completely fine, and is something many classes have in fact, I see no reason to hold back on Warrior from having similar tools at it's disposal.

Don't forget that Shrug brings extra healing along with it per condi cleansed, which makes Mending an even stronger healing skill.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Main post has been updated based on the feedback and discussions in this thread. Please keep contributing. If I asked for more feedback on particular items and did not hear back from people then I made a judgement call based on how the overall discussion of the class is going in this thread.

I want too make a particular call out to reworking rifle. Each attack is a cone AoE, including the burst, not skill 5 (duh). I do not recommend changing damage coefficients, the current numbers are rather low right now and frankly are suited for AoEs. For the F1 I went with Salt Shot, I felt that the daze + blind would help Rifle more than a pulsing torment field or more damage. This also has trait synergies (Anet loves that) with Body Blow and No Escape. I also took the suggestion for Sundering Bursts to apply healing per stack of vulnerability. This gives another source of sustain, but one not linked to might, this also helps nudge OH Mace over shield due to its large vulnerability stacks, and it also helps Rifle with its large vulnerability stacks now that they would be AoEs.

This means that if these rifle and trait changes are made you'd have the option as a Arms/Tactics/SpB to run Sundering Bursts, Leg Specialist, and No Escape to hit multiple foes with immobilizes, and vulnerability stacks for fairly steady, but not overbearing amounts of healing. These changes would help your team by keeping the enemy in place through several sources of immobilize, and help their damage by applying large stacks of vulnerability via AoEs. It would become a strong offensive support weapon and would have a strong niche that isn't MemeFlame.

For Flurry <-> Final Thrust swap I chose the T2 of Flurry as the new skill 3, I also recommend distributing the immob across the strikes. This allows it to immobilize foes who are struck after the initial strike, as such I no longer suggest removal of the self root. If the rest of you think otherwise then please say so. For Final Thrust I chose the current skill as the Tier 2 Burst. I also added some bleed above 50% target hp to aid condi build. Tier 1 is -50% damage -2 stacks of bleed relative to T2 and Tier 3 is +50% damage and +2 stacks of bleed relative to T2. If you all feel that T1 is too weak and T3 is too strong then please say so. I think the bleed stacks are right, but the power damage may need to be adjusted still. I did not propose a PvE/Comp split, so this may be the opportunity for one.

I also put a recommendation on how to change Berserk Mode so that it flows better and works more similarly to other 'modes' in this game. Thank you @felix.2386 for that discussion. I ask you all to critique that change, and to make further suggestions for the Rage skills to update them, Thanks @Torqiseknite.1380 for your suggestion in particular.

Again, I'd like to sincerely thank everyone for contributing, even if you and I disagreed, your insights and ideas are helpful. Even if something didn't make it into the main post, if another person suggests something that makes sense and your own suggestion makes more sense in light of that I'd certainly include it then into the main post. This is all certainly a work in progress still, so please keep commenting.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@"otto.5684" said:Unrelated, but from the the part quoting CMC. warrior power level being ideal is Hilarious, considering that warrior deals almost no damage. I guess sPvP is going from bunker mode to no death allowed mode. I really wish they get rid of the CMC dev. GW2 sPvP, for all its issues, was really fun back in the day. I cannot stand this CC, bunker slugfest.

Going slightly off topic here to address this part.

Here is the thing with that interpretation of it; he said Warrior is considered "around the ideal power level" and if, from what you're saying, it "deals almost no damage" that is more due to the fact that everything

else

is overtuned as opposed to Warrior's damage being

that

bad.

Personally I've still been able to deal damage on Warrior, its just that sort of across the board, even with Spellbreaker, it underperforms compared to other classes which means they are far more ideal to use to fulfill its "role" in either sPvP or WvW. The last couple of days I have done some roaming in WvW and some sPvP and while I have been able to 1vX a couple of times and beat classes like Reaper or otherwise in 1v1s, it definitely feels like an uphill battle when it comes to other classes just from the very beginning of any fight. I definitely understand where Necros were coming from more so now than I already did when they complained about having very little stability because that is where Warrior is right now, and we don't even get the benefits of teleports or a second health bar.

We have more endurance regen still, but the moment another player with just one more CC skill comes along you're pretty much done. If you get focused by just two people even in a small scale teamfight, again, you're pretty much dead unless you have someone pulsing enough Stability on you to save your hide. Whereas you still have classes like Holosmith, Scrapper, Soulbeast, Core Ranger, Firebrand, Guardian, and even Reaper and Scourge now have better access to Stability than Warrior does even in solo situations. I'd go into much more detail with this but that is pushing the offtopic too far and I'd rather not derail this thread.

Now to my actual feedback on something;@Lan Deathrider.5910

Defense:

Defy Pain: Defy Pain now provides Spiked Armor (5s) and Protection (5s) when struck below 50% HP and breaks stuns with a CD of 60s.

The first bit of this is par for the course, honestly, as it sort of runs in comparison to Emergency Elixir on Engineer. That trait had its invulnerability and passive stunbreak removed.

The passive stunbreaking on Last Stand was a big part of why it was unhealthy, how Defy Pain and Last Stand worked with their passive procs were what got them "nullified" in competitive modes in the first place, so we

really

need to steer clear of anything like that. You can't just shift the problem with one trait onto another one and think that it solves what had been an issue with it already. The trait would very much be fine on its own with just the 5s of Protection and 5s of Spiked Armor (Retaliation) when struck below 50% health, the passive stunbreak should inherently be a "no" to include on anything as it was a big part of the issue, I don't think any Warrior here posting and reading this thread should think otherwise. Why do you think Shrug It Off is even used at all? Because often times a CC has a condi attached to it, or a condi will be placed on you while you're CC'd, either accidentally or purposefully, and it will immediately break the CC for you. Granted there is a greater chance of it just getting burned before you ever get CC'd but that doesn't negate its effectiveness and its low 25 second ICD.

Well the issue really was the strength of the passive procs not the fact that they were passive. There are plenty of passives floating around without 300s CDs because they are not as strong as 3s of immunity to damage or 5s of immunity to critical hits + pulsing stability.

A passive proc for a small amount of damage reduction plus protection is completely fine, and is something many classes have in fact, I see no reason to hold back on Warrior from having similar tools at it's disposal.

Don't forget that Shrug brings extra healing along with it per condi cleansed, which makes Mending an even stronger healing skill.

No, for sure, that bit is fine. Thats what I was saying. The Retaliation and Protection is fine, the stunbreak bit is not.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@"otto.5684" said:Unrelated, but from the the part quoting CMC. warrior power level being ideal is Hilarious, considering that warrior deals almost no damage. I guess sPvP is going from bunker mode to no death allowed mode. I really wish they get rid of the CMC dev. GW2 sPvP, for all its issues, was really fun back in the day. I cannot stand this CC, bunker slugfest.

Going slightly off topic here to address this part.

Here is the thing with that interpretation of it; he said Warrior is considered "around the ideal power level" and if, from what you're saying, it "deals almost no damage" that is more due to the fact that everything

else

is overtuned as opposed to Warrior's damage being

that

bad.

Personally I've still been able to deal damage on Warrior, its just that sort of across the board, even with Spellbreaker, it underperforms compared to other classes which means they are far more ideal to use to fulfill its "role" in either sPvP or WvW. The last couple of days I have done some roaming in WvW and some sPvP and while I have been able to 1vX a couple of times and beat classes like Reaper or otherwise in 1v1s, it definitely feels like an uphill battle when it comes to other classes just from the very beginning of any fight. I definitely understand where Necros were coming from more so now than I already did when they complained about having very little stability because that is where Warrior is right now, and we don't even get the benefits of teleports or a second health bar.

We have more endurance regen still, but the moment another player with just one more CC skill comes along you're pretty much done. If you get focused by just two people even in a small scale teamfight, again, you're pretty much dead unless you have someone pulsing enough Stability on you to save your hide. Whereas you still have classes like Holosmith, Scrapper, Soulbeast, Core Ranger, Firebrand, Guardian, and even Reaper and Scourge now have better access to Stability than Warrior does even in solo situations. I'd go into much more detail with this but that is pushing the offtopic too far and I'd rather not derail this thread.

Now to my actual feedback on something;@Lan Deathrider.5910

Defense:

Defy Pain: Defy Pain now provides Spiked Armor (5s) and Protection (5s) when struck below 50% HP and breaks stuns with a CD of 60s.

The first bit of this is par for the course, honestly, as it sort of runs in comparison to Emergency Elixir on Engineer. That trait had its invulnerability and passive stunbreak removed.

The passive stunbreaking on Last Stand was a big part of why it was unhealthy, how Defy Pain and Last Stand worked with their passive procs were what got them "nullified" in competitive modes in the first place, so we

really

need to steer clear of anything like that. You can't just shift the problem with one trait onto another one and think that it solves what had been an issue with it already. The trait would very much be fine on its own with just the 5s of Protection and 5s of Spiked Armor (Retaliation) when struck below 50% health, the passive stunbreak should inherently be a "no" to include on anything as it was a big part of the issue, I don't think any Warrior here posting and reading this thread should think otherwise. Why do you think Shrug It Off is even used at all? Because often times a CC has a condi attached to it, or a condi will be placed on you while you're CC'd, either accidentally or purposefully, and it will immediately break the CC for you. Granted there is a greater chance of it just getting burned before you ever get CC'd but that doesn't negate its effectiveness and its low 25 second ICD.

Well the issue really was the strength of the passive procs not the fact that they were passive. There are plenty of passives floating around without 300s CDs because they are not as strong as 3s of immunity to damage or 5s of immunity to critical hits + pulsing stability.

A passive proc for a small amount of damage reduction plus protection is completely fine, and is something many classes have in fact, I see no reason to hold back on Warrior from having similar tools at it's disposal.

Don't forget that Shrug brings extra healing along with it per condi cleansed, which makes Mending an even stronger healing skill.

No, for sure, that bit is fine. Thats what I was saying. The Retaliation and Protection is fine, the

stunbreak

bit is not.

Fair point. How many passive stun breaks exist without +120s CDs?

[DKRathalos.9625]

Btw @Lan Deathrider.5910 as usual another sad day. Skimmer going underwater is coming at the end of month, that is what community asking when it comes to PvE and they deliver it quite quick, but yeah for WvW and PvP it seems very small chance of ANet listening to the forum/playerbase.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@"otto.5684" said:Unrelated, but from the the part quoting CMC. warrior power level being ideal is Hilarious, considering that warrior deals almost no damage. I guess sPvP is going from bunker mode to no death allowed mode. I really wish they get rid of the CMC dev. GW2 sPvP, for all its issues, was really fun back in the day. I cannot stand this CC, bunker slugfest.

Going slightly off topic here to address this part.

Here is the thing with that interpretation of it; he said Warrior is considered "around the ideal power level" and if, from what you're saying, it "deals almost no damage" that is more due to the fact that everything

else

is overtuned as opposed to Warrior's damage being

that

bad.

Personally I've still been able to deal damage on Warrior, its just that sort of across the board, even with Spellbreaker, it underperforms compared to other classes which means they are far more ideal to use to fulfill its "role" in either sPvP or WvW. The last couple of days I have done some roaming in WvW and some sPvP and while I have been able to 1vX a couple of times and beat classes like Reaper or otherwise in 1v1s, it definitely feels like an uphill battle when it comes to other classes just from the very beginning of any fight. I definitely understand where Necros were coming from more so now than I already did when they complained about having very little stability because that is where Warrior is right now, and we don't even get the benefits of teleports or a second health bar.

We have more endurance regen still, but the moment another player with just one more CC skill comes along you're pretty much done. If you get focused by just two people even in a small scale teamfight, again, you're pretty much dead unless you have someone pulsing enough Stability on you to save your hide. Whereas you still have classes like Holosmith, Scrapper, Soulbeast, Core Ranger, Firebrand, Guardian, and even Reaper and Scourge now have better access to Stability than Warrior does even in solo situations. I'd go into much more detail with this but that is pushing the offtopic too far and I'd rather not derail this thread.

Now to my actual feedback on something;@Lan Deathrider.5910

Defense:

Defy Pain: Defy Pain now provides Spiked Armor (5s) and Protection (5s) when struck below 50% HP and breaks stuns with a CD of 60s.

The first bit of this is par for the course, honestly, as it sort of runs in comparison to Emergency Elixir on Engineer. That trait had its invulnerability and passive stunbreak removed.

The passive stunbreaking on Last Stand was a big part of why it was unhealthy, how Defy Pain and Last Stand worked with their passive procs were what got them "nullified" in competitive modes in the first place, so we

really

need to steer clear of anything like that. You can't just shift the problem with one trait onto another one and think that it solves what had been an issue with it already. The trait would very much be fine on its own with just the 5s of Protection and 5s of Spiked Armor (Retaliation) when struck below 50% health, the passive stunbreak should inherently be a "no" to include on anything as it was a big part of the issue, I don't think any Warrior here posting and reading this thread should think otherwise. Why do you think Shrug It Off is even used at all? Because often times a CC has a condi attached to it, or a condi will be placed on you while you're CC'd, either accidentally or purposefully, and it will immediately break the CC for you. Granted there is a greater chance of it just getting burned before you ever get CC'd but that doesn't negate its effectiveness and its low 25 second ICD.

Well the issue really was the strength of the passive procs not the fact that they were passive. There are plenty of passives floating around without 300s CDs because they are not as strong as 3s of immunity to damage or 5s of immunity to critical hits + pulsing stability.

A passive proc for a small amount of damage reduction plus protection is completely fine, and is something many classes have in fact, I see no reason to hold back on Warrior from having similar tools at it's disposal.

Don't forget that Shrug brings extra healing along with it per condi cleansed, which makes Mending an even stronger healing skill.

No, for sure, that bit is fine. Thats what I was saying. The Retaliation and Protection is fine, the

stunbreak

bit is not.

Fair point. How many passive stun breaks exist without +120s CDs?

I don't believe there are any anymore. The only one that technically exists is Shrug It Off, otherwise all the others have either been given the 300s ICD treatment or reworked like Engineer's Emergency Elixir.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@DKRathalos.9625 said:Btw @Lan Deathrider.5910 as usual another sad day. Skimmer going underwater is coming at the end of month, that is what community asking when it comes to PvE and they deliver it quite quick, but yeah for WvW and PvP it seems very small chance of ANet listening to the forum/playerbase.

Well perhaps a constructive thread like this that gets reposted on the WvW and PvP forums will get some changes eh?

[DKRathalos.9625]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Well perhaps a constructive thread like this that gets reposted on the WvW and PvP forums will get some changes eh?Well we hope so but... I dunno man, I've seen many threads about how the 100B on warrior should be reworked/tweaked etc2 since like long time ago yet they didn't do something until this day. And that's only 1 skill lol, we asked for multiple :/

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

In the meantime I thought of an update to Dagger 5 and I'd like to hear what you all think on it:

Dagger

• Bladestorm: Change this skill to an activation time of 1/2s. For 2s blades swirl around creating a lightening field, granting swiftness to allies and damaging foes, Foes damaged are inflicted with vulnerability. Reflects missiles.

OH Dagger is not used really at all, and the lack luster nature of Bladestorm may be why. Changing this to a PBAoE effect centered on the Spellbreaker, like Flames of War for Berserker Torch, will allow the Spellbreaker to provide projectile protection for allies, grant them boons, and provide a lightening field with which to combo off of, which since WoD was reworked Spellbreaker has been lacking in.

TLDR; Make Bladestorm's current effects be a PBAoE centered on the Spellbreaker like with Flames of War and become a lightening field with a 2s duration with a 1/2s cast time. This grants team protection and team swiftness from a source not Warhorn and returns a lightening field to the Spellbreaker.

[Sobx.1758]

@"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:For a comparison of its burst potential now look to its coefficient/cast time: 3.6/3.5s roughly 1.03. Without the final strike this is 2.8/3.5 or 0.8. The AA chain (total coefficient/total cast time) is 1.944/2.4s = 0.81 not including the vulnerability stacks. So if that last strike never hits you would have been better off just auto attacking.

The ratios for other notable burst skills:Whirling Axe: 5.595/3.5s = 1.60Whirling Wrath: 2.8/0.75s = 3.73 (not including the projectiles)Grave Digger: 1.82/1.25s = 1.456

Think of this is your bang for buck for the time spent executing the skill solely from a damage viewpoint, which is 100B's job. Even with a full channel it is worse of than other skills with similar jobs.

Reducing the channel time to 2s would bring this to 3.6/2s = 1.8 with the final strike and 1.4 without the final strike, either of which would be more in line with how other skills with similar purposes perform. I think this sort of change would help the skill without clunky rework of the animation and improve the flow of the weapon and actually let the skill shine in execution rather than on paper.

That's a better way to put it into perspective, but you're still looking at the isolated skill instead of the overal performance of the weapon. For example axe has pretty low utility, it's more-or-less just pure dps weapon choice. GS on the other hand has some solid pvp utility, so trying to pack the damage changes by comparing it to a pure deeps option isn't exactly "on point" imo.

Yes, 100b needs some adjustments, but I don't think it should be as bursty as the best dps/burst options, because gs offers more than those weapons if you don't isolate the skill.

Comparing these to "100B but without the last bit of dmg" also isn't exactly fair seeing as the point of the change IS to land that last bit of damage, right? At this point listing stats "without last strike" misses the point of the desired change and seems like a deliberate misdirection, but maybe that's just me. :p

---

Btw on a "100b-unrelated" note, I think you've wrote before that mace AA chain should be buffed in the form of reducing the chain cast time, because hammer hits harder and faster. If you compare the ratios of their full AA chains (total coefficient/total cast time), then that seems to be false. In fact, if I remember correctly, mace is sliiiiightly higher, but pretty much the same?

Edit:This is the quote I was thinking of:

Mace AA chain: This AA chain over all is overly slow to execute for the benefit it provides. Hammer, a 2H weapon that hits harder has a faster AA chain. It is recommended to reduce the overall cast time of this chain.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:For a comparison of its burst potential now look to its coefficient/cast time: 3.6/3.5s roughly 1.03. Without the final strike this is 2.8/3.5 or 0.8. The AA chain (total coefficient/total cast time) is 1.944/2.4s = 0.81 not including the vulnerability stacks. So if that last strike never hits you would have been better off just auto attacking.

The ratios for other notable burst skills:Whirling Axe: 5.595/3.5s = 1.60Whirling Wrath: 2.8/0.75s = 3.73 (not including the projectiles)Grave Digger: 1.82/1.25s = 1.456

Think of this is your bang for buck for the time spent executing the skill solely from a damage viewpoint, which is 100B's job. Even with a full channel it is worse of than other skills with similar jobs.

Reducing the channel time to 2s would bring this to 3.6/2s = 1.8 with the final strike and 1.4 without the final strike, either of which would be more in line with how other skills with similar purposes perform. I think this sort of change would help the skill without clunky rework of the animation and improve the flow of the weapon and actually let the skill shine in execution rather than on paper.

That's a better way to put it into perspective, but you're still looking at the isolated skill instead of the overal performance of the weapon. For example axe has pretty low utility, it's more-or-less just pure dps weapon choice. GS on the other hand has some solid pvp utility, so trying to pack the damage changes by comparing it to a pure deeps option isn't exactly "on point" imo.

Yes, 100b needs some adjustments, but I don't think it should be as bursty as the best dps/burst options, because gs offers more than those weapons if you don't isolate the skill.

Comparing these to "100B but without the last bit of dmg" also isn't exactly fair seeing as the point of the change IS to land that last bit of damage, right? At this point listing stats "without last strike" misses the point of the desired change and seems like a deliberate misdirection, but maybe that's just me. :p

Its more about what the skills offer those weapons, they are all generally AoE bursts for the weapons, all other aspects of the weapons themselves aside. As a 'burst' skill 100B lags greatly behind other such skills to the point here missing the last hit makes it weaker than an AA chain.

Btw on a "100b-unrelated" note, I think you've wrote before that mace AA chain should be buffed in the form of reducing the chain cast time, because hammer hits harder and faster. If you compare the ratios of their full AA chains (total coefficient/total cast time), then that seems to be false. In fact, if I remember correctly, mace is sliiiiightly higher, but pretty much the same?

Edit:This is the quote I was thinking of:

Mace AA chain: This AA chain over all is overly slow to execute for the benefit it provides. Hammer, a 2H weapon that hits harder has a faster AA chain. It is recommended to reduce the overall cast time of this chain.

Getting into the chains themselves, Hammer is a 0.73 Coefficient/cast and Mace is 0.74, roughly the same ratio at which point one has to discuss the merits of what the chains offer. Hammer ends in an AoE that hits up to 5 enemies, which is more overall damage with a smaller cast time and something that can hit behind the warrior, where as Mace offers a 5s weakness on the last hit. The issue here is a 2 hander and a 1 hander with similar roles but the 1h is slower than the 2h which is not normally the case when considering a 1h versus a 2h. A one hander is generally taken over a two hander because it is a faster weapon, but in this case it isn't.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Alright people. Are there any more pieces of insight that some of you want to share? Changes to other traits? Weapons? Utilities? Think about it over No Downstate weekend. I'll review the whole thing to see if any real gaps are glaring and fill them in unless someone else brings something up.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:Alright people. Are there any more pieces of insight that some of you want to share? Changes to other traits? Weapons? Utilities? Think about it over No Downstate weekend. I'll review the whole thing to see if any real gaps are glaring and fill them in unless someone else brings something up.

I still think you need to get rid of the stunbreak bit on Defy Pain, other than that...I'm actually a little surprised I didn't see this come up...

Fix Rush pathing

Though thats more of a "ANet needs to do this for most things in the game", including pathing on Ranged attacks because it is so fun when someone is entirely visible and well within range of Throw Axe and it says "Miss" or "Obstructed". Awesome. Also great when Bladetrail just vanishes into the ether even though it doesn't contact anything, or its possible it hits a tiny pixel that just so happens to be poking out of the terrain.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:Alright people. Are there any more pieces of insight that some of you want to share? Changes to other traits? Weapons? Utilities? Think about it over No Downstate weekend. I'll review the whole thing to see if any real gaps are glaring and fill them in unless someone else brings something up.

I still think you need to get rid of the stunbreak bit on Defy Pain, other than that...I'm actually a little surprised I didn't see this come up...

Fix Rush pathing

Though thats more of a "ANet needs to do this for most things in the game", including pathing on Ranged attacks because it is

so fun

when someone is entirely visible and well within range of Throw Axe and it says "Miss" or "Obstructed". Awesome. Also great when Bladetrail just vanishes into the ether even though it doesn't contact anything, or its possible it hits a tiny

pixel

that just so happens to be poking out of the terrain.

That is more of a 'movement' skill thing. Savage leap and Reaper Shroud 2 do the same thing. So does Earthshaker. The projectile issue is more of random bits of geometry that are not necessarily visible causing a break in LoS. South Camp on Alpine is a notorious spot for that. More of a Anet needs to fix the maps and not a need to fix the skills themselves.

As far as the stunbreak thing there are still passive stunbreaks without the 300s CD treatment:

Shrug it OffVersed in StoneReactive Lenses

The 300s CD ones are all strongly defensive in nature (like protection + 10 stacks of stability or full invulnerability to certain sources of damage).

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Alright people. Are there any more pieces of insight that some of you want to share? Changes to other traits? Weapons? Utilities? Think about it over No Downstate weekend. I'll review the whole thing to see if any real gaps are glaring and fill them in unless someone else brings something up.

I still think you need to get rid of the stunbreak bit on Defy Pain, other than that...I'm actually a little surprised I didn't see this come up...

Fix Rush pathing

Though thats more of a "ANet needs to do this for most things in the game", including pathing on Ranged attacks because it is

so fun

when someone is entirely visible and well within range of Throw Axe and it says "Miss" or "Obstructed". Awesome. Also great when Bladetrail just vanishes into the ether even though it doesn't contact anything, or its possible it hits a tiny

pixel

that just so happens to be poking out of the terrain.

That is more of a 'movement' skill thing. Savage leap and Reaper Shroud 2 do the same thing. So does Earthshaker. The projectile issue is more of random bits of geometry that are not necessarily visible causing a break in LoS. South Camp on Alpine is a notorious spot for that. More of a Anet needs to fix the maps and not a need to fix the skills themselves.

As far as the stunbreak thing there are still passive stunbreaks without the 300s CD treatment:

Shrug it OffVersed in StoneReactive Lenses

The 300s CD ones are all strongly defensive in nature (like protection + 10 stacks of stability or full invulnerability to certain sources of damage).

I'm saying this out of concern that it will be looked at and get an immediate "No" purely because its associated with Warrior and nothing else. Treading carefully is better than being too ambitious or hopeful. Probably better that it gets the same treatment as Emergency Elixir, which is no longer a passive stunbreak, rather than give them a reason to deny it purely based on the fact that it is a passive stunbreak + damage reduction (with Protection) that would be frequently if not the only trait used in the Master column for Warriors taking Defense. Granted this is mostly an issue with Defense being a poorly designed and laid out Specialization for the class, so you have to be extremely careful with how you approach changes for those particular traits.

[Smoosh.2718]

Another one Id like to see changed is the way warhorn works.

CHARGE:Swiftness 15sCharge (8s) 25% damage (10% pvp) x2 hits onlyremove imobo cripple chill. blast finisher.

Change to:Swiftness 15s and superspeed 4sCharge (4s) 25% damage (10% pvp) 4's of boosted damage for all attacksremove imobo cripple chill. blast finisher.

Currently Charges benefit does not feel impactful enough to take as an offhand weapon. Don't get me wrong this 'weapon' works great as a support condi clense and barrier support, yet the charge benefit is lost with auto attacks. a bonus damage to 2 attacks feels more like a trait for weapon swap than an actual weapon skill. 4s will allow the player to time a horn blow into an attack combo.

Why superspeed on the charge? Simple really.. you're charging, say you're in combat.. you blow the horn now everyone is pumped to run even faster towards the targets.. or away. Making the weapon an even stronger contender against the shield.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Smoosh.2718 said:Another one Id like to see changed is the way warhorn works.

CHARGE:Swiftness 15sCharge (8s) 25% damage (10% pvp) x2 hits onlyremove imobo cripple chill. blast finisher.

Change to:Swiftness 15s and superspeed 4sCharge (4s) 25% damage (10% pvp) 4's of boosted damage for all attacksremove imobo cripple chill. blast finisher.

Currently Charges benefit does not feel impactful enough to take as an offhand weapon. Don't get me wrong this 'weapon' works great as a support condi clense and barrier support, yet the charge benefit is lost with auto attacks. a bonus damage to 2 attacks feels more like a trait for weapon swap than an actual weapon skill. 4s will allow the player to time a horn blow into an attack combo.

Why superspeed on the charge? Simple really.. you're charging, say you're in combat.. you blow the horn now everyone is pumped to run even faster towards the targets.. or away. Making the weapon an even stronger contender against the shield.

Why superspeed AND swiftness?

Wasn't the increased damage originally multiple seconds when they reworked it? If anything if we went that route I would say 1-2s, maybe even split the duration for PvE & WvW/PvP.

I would say also that making charge a moderate duration superspeed rather than swiftness would be best, for the reasons you listed. Something like 5s.

[Smoosh.2718]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Why superspeed AND swiftness?

Wasn't the increased damage originally multiple seconds when they reworked it? If anything if we went that route I would say 1-2s, maybe even split the duration for PvE & WvW/PvP.

I would say also that making charge a moderate duration superspeed rather than swiftness would be best, for the reasons you listed. Something like 5s.

Why both?

Since superspeed does not work out of combat the skill would be of use in and out of combat.

The skill when it first came out gave no buffs to damage at all, then changed to remove torment then they added the 2 hit damage buff. This really needs to be a time buff than 2 hit buff we currently have.

A timed damage buff will make this skill wanted by raiders, wvw'ers pvp'ers and pve'ers, giving the warrior a semi support role.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Smoosh.2718 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Why superspeed AND swiftness?

Wasn't the increased damage originally multiple seconds when they reworked it? If anything if we went that route I would say 1-2s, maybe even split the duration for PvE & WvW/PvP.

I would say also that making charge a moderate duration superspeed rather than swiftness would be best, for the reasons you listed. Something like 5s.

Why both?

Since superspeed does not work out of combat the skill would be of use in and out of combat.

The skill when it first came out gave no buffs to damage at all, then changed to remove torment then they added the 2 hit damage buff. This really needs to be a time buff than 2 hit buff we currently have.

A timed damage buff will make this skill wanted by raiders, wvw'ers pvp'ers and pve'ers, giving the warrior a semi support role.

The 2 hit damage buff is one of the ways that Anet kneecapped the Tactics/warhorn rework out the gate sadly. You are right that a few seconds would be best rather than a few hits for a proper support role. As it is, and this is a frequent criticism of the skill, it gets wasted on auto attacks.

The other way that Tactics was kneecapped was putting a 15s CD on Marching Orders without the means to refresh it. I've advocated for no CD on it, it is after all limited by burst CDs then, or to reduce it to a 5s CD. A way to refresh it, not with Bursts skills, would also work. On a dodge perhaps? Do you have any ideas there?

If the CD on Marching Orders become more manageable, shorter, or not at all then Warrior would have access to a decent support build with Soldiers Comfort and Vigorous Shouts.

Martial Cadence would activate more as well which would alleviate the need to have Fast Hands and open up some build diversity.

[Smoosh.2718]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

The 2 hit damage buff is one of the ways that Anet kneecapped the Tactics/warhorn rework out the gate sadly. You are right that a few seconds would be best rather than a few hits for a proper support role. As it is, and this is a frequent criticism of the skill, it gets wasted on auto attacks.

The other way that Tactics was kneecapped was putting a 15s CD on Marching Orders without the means to refresh it. I've advocated for no CD on it, it is after all limited by burst CDs then, or to reduce it to a 5s CD. A way to refresh it, not with Bursts skills, would also work. On a dodge perhaps? Do you have any ideas there?

If the CD on Marching Orders become more manageable, shorter, or not at all then Warrior would have access to a decent support build with Soldiers Comfort and Vigorous Shouts.

Martial Cadence would activate more as well which would alleviate the need to have Fast Hands and open up some build diversity.

A way that this trait could function is... Reset on weapon swapWith a base cooldown of 8s to cover core burst times.

Currently I will never pick this trait for PvP or WvW due to the horrible 15s CD for a 2.2k heal + 3 might. heck... within 15's I can shout the same For Great Justice shout for 2.6-3.5k Health then 5 seconds later... i can shout again.

The might gain feels odd from this trait as well, AoE Regen might be more suited to this.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Smoosh.2718 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

The 2 hit damage buff is one of the ways that Anet kneecapped the Tactics/warhorn rework out the gate sadly. You are right that a few seconds would be best rather than a few hits for a proper support role. As it is, and this is a frequent criticism of the skill, it gets wasted on auto attacks.

The other way that Tactics was kneecapped was putting a 15s CD on Marching Orders without the means to refresh it. I've advocated for no CD on it, it is after all limited by burst CDs then, or to reduce it to a 5s CD. A way to refresh it, not with Bursts skills, would also work. On a dodge perhaps? Do you have any ideas there?

If the CD on Marching Orders become more manageable, shorter, or not at all then Warrior would have access to a decent support build with Soldiers Comfort and Vigorous Shouts.

Martial Cadence would activate more as well which would alleviate the need to have Fast Hands and open up some build diversity.

A way that this trait could function is... Reset on weapon swapWith a base cooldown of 8s to cover core burst times.So with Fast Hands an effective CD of 5s? Why not just make it 5s then rather than 8s and remove the obvious need to take Discipline to maximize the core benefit of a separate trait line? Recharging on weapon swap wasn't inherently a bad idea mind you, it just pushes warriors back towards Discipline rather than towards more build diversity.Currently I will never pick this trait for PvP or WvW due to the horrible 15s CD for a 2.2k heal + 3 might. heck... within 15's I can shout the same For Great Justice shout for 2.6-3.5k Health then 5 seconds later... i can shout again.

The might gain feels odd from this trait as well, AoE Regen might be more suited to this.

Anet's response to warrior issues is apparently to add more might (see Crushing Blow and Rip). I mean, it certainly plays well though within the trait line, might given to allies heals you, and if you have PS up then that is double the amount of might you are giving out, it is just crippled as a form of support due to the 15s CD.

I think if the CD were 5s, then you'd get that 2.2k heal plus the 2.6-3.5k heal from FGJ in a tighter timeframe. Either that or they need to make Soldier's Comfort and Martial Cadence more powerful, which is not something that I think should happen.

[DKRathalos.9625]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:So with Fast Hands an effective CD of 5s? Why not just make it 5s then rather than 8s and remove the obvious need to take Discipline to maximize the core benefit of a separate trait line? Recharging on weapon swap wasn't inherently a bad idea mind you, it just pushes warriors back towards Discipline rather than towards more build diversity.

I'll be glad if they make fast hand baseline but even without that, Discipline still a strong trait if we talk about dps.Able to remove immob on movement speed, giving burst more damage and burst recharge faster, since warrior playstyle is around burst discipline is really valuable.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@DKRathalos.9625 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:So with Fast Hands an effective CD of 5s? Why not just make it 5s then rather than 8s and remove the obvious need to take Discipline to maximize the core benefit of a separate trait line? Recharging on weapon swap wasn't inherently a bad idea mind you, it just pushes warriors back towards Discipline rather than towards more build diversity.

I'll be glad if they make fast hand baseline but even without that, Discipline still a strong trait if we talk about dps.Able to remove immob on movement speed, giving burst more damage and burst recharge faster, since warrior playstyle is around burst discipline is really valuable.

Not disagreeing, I was just pointing out that said suggestion just reinforces the need to take Discipline rather than adding in some reasons to move away from it.

[wolverine.5164]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@wolverine.5164 said:Please do not forget about rousing resiliance... is trash,0 it be forgotten completly... what about utilitys? do u know how bad is berseker stance? , shattering blow?, healing signet? shield master 1 sec might?, king of fires only 10% burn duration?... lets just not ingnore everything else...

This is a discussion thread to discuss what needs to change. Please feel free to bring suggestions to the discussion. I am purposefully holding back and allow others to bring suggestions up. I can seriously suggest a change for every single weapon, trait, and skill. I do not want this to be a personal wish list, but a community driven effort.

As to Rousing Resilience. There is some great interaction with Berserker and Eternal Champion. There is also a Spellbreaker build floating around that makes good use of it, but with Last Stand broken by the devs on purpose and conditions being more prevalent than they were Cleansing Ire is more important of a trait to take. Try RR out with Runes of the Tempest btw, you may like it more then.

what r u talking about?, wish list, r u fkin serious?, all the traits/utilitys/heals that i mentioned r trash and thats a fact, u must be a pve player so i understan ur lack of knowledge so let me explain, Rousing resiliance: use to be 2.5k heals and 8 sec RR that granted 1k of thoughness... and ALSO had a 0.5% heal coefient, nerf to 0.1% coeficient that makes no sence... the proper nerf would had been from 2.5k to 1.5k from 8 sec to 5 sec and lastly from 0.5% to 0.3%... this is NOT a wish list.... this r FACTS.