Warrior Balance Requests Omnibus

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Well here vomes the big question tho. Cleansing Ire or Rousing Resilience? 2 equally good grandmasters, but what do you use more? For Berserker at least.

[Sobx.1758]

@losalamos.5123 said:On a side note, is anyone noticing how weak and long cooldown our stunbreaks are (I am disregarding berserker utility skills)Featherfoot grace - 45s, Shake It Off - 75(60s), Endure Pain (40s), Frenzy (45s). Balanced Stance (60s)For a melee class, we are very likely to be hit by a lot of stuns, but lack good options for reasonably removing them.Compare that against Save Yourselfs (Guardian, 8 AoE Buffs) 50(40s), Signet of Judgment (Guardian, passive -10% dmg) 25(20s), Superspeed (Engineer, toolbelt) 25s, Summon Flesh Worm (Necro, swap with wurm) 32s. Blink (Mesmer) 35(27s).

Warrior utility skills feel far less impactful. Either they should be shorter cooldown or they need to do more.

While I don't think stunbreaks are necessarily prefectly balanced between the classes (but it's not bad imo), I wouldn't say your comparison here is entirely fair or accurate. You list stunbreaks from one class (while avoiding some) and then pick a few isolated skills between the classes to compare it with that single profession.

Also: Shake it off has 2 charges (+aoe condi cleanse). Endure pain with 3 sec invuln, which might bait some big hitters typically landed after ccing (in regards of being potentially impactful). Balanced stance pulsing stab, but not sure how much value you'd give it in your anti-cc ranking (and 40s in wvw, but yeah 60s in conq feels a bit high to me).Signet of judgment cd seems kind of stupid to me in comparison to Dolyak -maybe slightly less stupid when we include fairly long stab stacks dolyak grants, but still :DFor some reason you didn't include Stomp, which is a stunbreak with a bit of range, aoe hard cc and stab source [also breaks immob when traited], all on a 30s [24s traited] cd.

Overally it seems to me that you're trying to bend the facts to show the outcome you want, but maybe it wasn't intentional.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@DKRathalos.9625 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:So:Savage Instinct:Gain Feel No Pain for 2s when entering Berserk Mode. Berserk Mode now breaks stuns.Gain Feel No Pain for 1s when using a Rage skill.This effect does not stack.

This way you get what you want, but we also address the issue of Berserker's inherent, and very unfair and imbalanced squishiness. This effect would not stack, it would simply apply the new duration over the old one.

I don't believe that what i have described counts a a major buff, rather a better utilization of what the class can already offer, so I stand to be corrected.

The Rock Guard, Sundering Leap, and Savage Instinct changes would all be major buffs, but they may actually make Berserker more viable in the long run.

I'd say for PvP/WvW the 2 secs when enter berserk and 1s after using rage is way to short?Make it 3 secs when enter berserk to get in line with the 3 secs superspeed and 3 secs quickness will be good and 2 secs after using rage is good or 1,5s.

To be honest the current feel no pain feels nothing as in I haven't really feel the benefit because of how short it is, so increasing duration can be good.

You run the risk of making the spec overly tanky then. As presented here you have potentially 7s of physical immunity if chained together. Take a shield and then you have 3 seconds of block on top of that.

@Grand Marshal.4098 said:Well here vomes the big question tho. Cleansing Ire or Rousing Resilience? 2 equally good grandmasters, but what do you use more? For Berserker at least.

Depends on the matchup. Vs Condi take CI versus Physical take RI.

[Vancho.8750]

Adding this here by request from @"Lan Deathrider.5910"The idea is to bring Berserker as a Bruiser Roamer for pvp instead of just sidenoder we already have Spellbreaker for that. So it is in line with Soulbeast roamer build or holo where it can do little bit of everything but generally not as good as full blown teamfighter or sidenoder( decap shenanigans and all of that).My wish is that we pull away from the idea that Berserker should run GS or sword to have mobility, we have allot of weapons but not much are used and having extra abilities and traits on Berserker that help with moving about the place, like Holo has Holo leap with extra supperspeed and removes conditions. Also since its melee it needs some way to go into fights without losing half HP at the start just from random abilities on the ground.

Also the thread I made is Begging for some Band aid, cause being pointless speck for 4 years in pvp just doesn't sit right with me.

"The current design of berserker forces it into gimmick builds that are not fun to play or play against, but with some changes it might get an average bruiser build.So currently the issues with it are that it has bad sustain to damage output, bad condition management (most elites have some condi management trait or skill and berserker has none except kitten torch w t f), and bad mobility compared to other specks if it is not running mobility weapon like GS or sword(can we get away from that design) and even then it is slow. The bad sustain comes from that berserker needs to stick to target but any damage field just destroys it be it condition or power, so it is a melee class that can't stay in melee.Also as disclaimer most of the changes are comparing it to other bruiser specks like holo which works like the HoT berserker with its embedded sustain and damage in the elite + all the range and toys from engi. Have in mind that Berserker is All in speck it goes in the fightBy the numbers buffs that could make it at least somewhat playableReducing the CD on Berserk to 12 so it can be 8 1/2 when in discipline, since Berserker gets its most value when entering Berserk from the traits but not sitting in the state so you get more Savage Instinct and Burst of Aggression procs.Mobility buffs, Burst of Aggression longer Supper speed to match the berserker mode or little bit less (again Matching the mobility of other bruisers) and Buff to Sundering Leap Longer range on the thing and maybe charges or lower cooldown.Shattering Blow increase to the Rock guard block to 1 second at least , 1/2 doesn't even cover the latency of the server f f s.Outrage why the kitten did they nerf it to 20 seconds it just stunbreaks 10 seconds like before nerf the duration increase of berserk if they want to.I'm not sure about Headbutt maybe just give it some damage back the whole thing removes stability to increase damage. All of the skills are weak at least make them trait procers if they are low impact with low cds.The -300 toughness is also kitten since all the other specs got their 'Drawback' sentence reduced since it didn't pan out back then, but they kinda forgot berserker. Dead or Alive either reduce the cd or increase the passive to at least 30%(might seem allot but im not sure if it even be enough).The condition management I can't solve by number tuning the speck just doesn't have any at all except on the 2 on off hand torch, I was thinking about a trait that gives 1 second resistance on primal burst not after on cast so it can hit, slap it on the Eternal Champion trait maybe.Fixing the defense traitline will also help I don't know If CMC can change the position of traits, but moving Rousing Resilience or Cleansing Ire to the mid column (like some people suggested) would alleviate how bad it is currently since there isn't anything good to pick from it.Armored attack should probably get combined with some other trait maybe Rousing Resilience.Cull the Weak and Sundering Mace should be combined since Sundering Mace didn't get touched in the usefulness outside of carrying weapons rework on traits(found that the 20% duration thing does nothing for mainhand and the burst does not count lol). Also can we can 1 second block that flips to attack like Ranger GS does.Adrenal Health should be the Minor Adept trait and it should work like main mechanic for Defense for example instead of getting Regeneration on Dogged March you get 1 stack of Adrenal Health.Thick skin should take the Gain adrenaline from getting hit part of Cleansing Ire.I would like a Trait or skill that gives % HP barrier on 1 second ICD when getting hit so it can counter the small damage multi attacks like AoE damage fields but not the heavy hitting skills. I m thinking and I think the perfect spot for the %HP barrier on hit will be Dead or Alive, so Entering Berserk gives you effect like Spectral armor. Also a bump to the healing % would be nice.Discuss If I'm Missing something or if I'm overkilling on something."

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Vancho.8750 said:Adding this here by request from @"Lan Deathrider.5910"Many thanks!The idea is to bring Berserker as a Bruiser Roamer for pvp instead of just sidenoder we already have Spellbreaker for that. So it is in line with Soulbeast roamer build or holo where it can do little bit of everything but generally not as good as full blown teamfighter or sidenoder( decap shenanigans and all of that).My wish is that we pull away from the idea that Berserker should run GS or sword to have mobility, we have allot of weapons but not much are used and having extra abilities and traits on Berserker that help with moving about the place, like Holo has Holo leap with extra supperspeed and removes conditions. Also since its melee it needs some way to go into fights without losing half HP at the start just from random abilities on the ground.

I agree wholeheartedly here, more for Warrior as a whole, but Bererker as a spec should help alleviate that problem not make it worse.Also the thread I made is Begging for some Band aid, cause being pointless speck for 4 years in pvp just doesn't sit right with me.

"The current design of berserker forces it into gimmick builds that are not fun to play or play against, but with some changes it might get an average bruiser build.So currently the issues with it are that it has bad sustain to damage output, bad condition management (most elites have some condi management trait or skill and berserker has none except kitten torch w t f), and bad mobility compared to other specks if it is not running mobility weapon like GS or sword(can we get away from that design) and even then it is slow. The bad sustain comes from that berserker needs to stick to target but any damage field just destroys it be it condition or power, so it is a melee class that can't stay in melee.Agree, but as I mentioned before I think we need to accept a weakness to condi so as not to create a run away behemoth. I think what was just mentioned for Savage Instinct would help versus power damage to stay on target while relying on core traits and utilities to mitigate condi. We don't want to create something that can't be fairly killed.Also as disclaimer most of the changes are comparing it to other bruiser specks like holo which works like the HoT berserker with its embedded sustain and damage in the elite + all the range and toys from engi. Have in mind that Berserker is All in speck it goes in the fightBy the numbers buffs that could make it at least somewhat playableReducing the CD on Berserk to 12 so it can be 8 1/2 when in discipline, since Berserker gets its most value when entering Berserk from the traits but not sitting in the state so you get more Savage Instinct and Burst of Aggression procs.I think that is fair. What do you think of the suggested changes thus far in this thread for managing Berserk Mode?Mobility buffs, Burst of Aggression longer Supper speed to match the berserker mode or little bit less (again Matching the mobility of other bruisers) and Buff to Sundering Leap Longer range on the thing and maybe charges or lower cooldown.Super long durations of a buff that cannot be stripped is a bad idea. It has been suggested in this thread to allow Burst of Aggression to refresh under certain conditions. Do you think that change would work?Is a 900 range on Sundering Leap enough? Coupled with Bulls Charge that may be enough mobility for any weapon set.Shattering Blow increase to the Rock guard block to 1 second at least , 1/2 doesn't even cover the latency of the server f f s.There was a fantastic suggestion by @Grand Marshal.4098 for Shattering Blow. Do you think that works or do you think that goes over the top? It would add to team defense a bit.Outrage why the kitten did they nerf it to 20 seconds it just stunbreaks 10 seconds like before nerf the duration increase of berserk if they want to.@Grand Marshal.4098 suggested adding in protection to the skill. I think that is a good option that would justify the duration. What do you think?I'm not sure about Headbutt maybe just give it some damage back the whole thing removes stability to increase damage. All of the skills are weak at least make them trait procers if they are low impact with low cds.Again we just discussed making it travel faster by 25%. It has also been suggested to allow Body Blow to deal damage on hard CCs. It has also been suggested that Savage Instinct provide Feel No Pain for 1s when using a rage skill. Do you think these will help Headbutt?The -300 toughness is also kitten since all the other specs got their 'Drawback' sentence reduced since it didn't pan out back then, but they kinda forgot berserker. Dead or Alive either reduce the cd or increase the passive to at least 30%(might seem allot but im not sure if it even be enough).At this point I say just remove the penalty.For Dead or Alive I honestly don't know if it affects our own self healing lol. Shows how little used it is. Assuming it does affect our self healing. You use TTL for 6,575 for the current PvP values. DorA heals then for 7,233. Let's say you have Fighter runes and Restorative Strength with Might Makes Right. That brings it up to 8168. If instead it were 30% this becomes 9,653 without any healing power. I think this trait has potential as it is and I am warry of increasing it too much. With 1000 healing power that becomes 11,212 at a 30% adjustment. Not taking into account Vigorous Shouts either.The condition management I can't solve by number tuning the speck just doesn't have any at all except on the 2 on off hand torch, I was thinking about a trait that gives 1 second resistance on primal burst not after on cast so it can hit, slap it on the Eternal Champion trait maybe.You can take Cleansing Ire to clear condis. As I said before I think we may have to accept a weakness to condi in order to not overtune the spec. Core has several ways to mitigate condi to begin with.Fixing the defense traitline will also help I don't know If CMC can change the position of traits, but moving Rousing Resilience or Cleansing Ire to the mid column (like some people suggested) would alleviate how bad it is currently since there isn't anything good to pick from it.That would be a strong change. Perhaps shove Defy Pain into the Grandmaster tier and undo the 300s CD on both it and Last Stand. Those two were overbearing before because they were taken together. Making them share a slot will be enough to justify reducing the CDs on them.Armored attack should probably get combined with some other trait maybe Rousing Resilience.Could be. I was wondering early today if we could roll armor into it rather than just toughness. You can 10% of your Defense as power rather than 10% of your toughness.Cull the Weak and Sundering Mace should be combined since Sundering Mace didn't get touched in the usefulness outside of carrying weapons rework on traits(found that the 20% duration thing does nothing for mainhand and the burst does not count lol). Also can we can 1 second block that flips to attack like Ranger GS does.Do those really have no effect on the daze on Mace 3 and the stun on F1? I say rework Sundering Mace to extend all daze, stuns, and knockdowns while wielding a mace by 1s, critical hits with a mace apply weakness.Change Cull the Weak to deal 7% damage versus weakend foes. Deal 7% more damage versus foes that are under a control effect.Adrenal Health should be the Minor Adept trait and it should work like main mechanic for Defense for example instead of getting Regeneration on Dogged March you get 1 stack of Adrenal Health.1 stack in addition to that gained from using bursts?Thick skin should take the Gain adrenaline from getting hit part of Cleansing Ire.I can see that. Swap Defy Pain then with Cleansing Ire.I would like a Trait or skill that gives % HP barrier on 1 second ICD when getting hit so it can counter the small damage multi attacks like AoE damage fields but not the heavy hitting skills. I m thinking and I think the perfect spot for the %HP barrier on hit will be Dead or Alive, so Entering Berserk gives you effect like Spectral armor. Also a bump to the healing % would be nice.Did you want this in Defense or Berserker? I say put it where Armored Attack is now. Something like gain 1% of you max HP as barrier when struck by an attack 2% when you are critically struck. 1s ICD.Discuss If I'm Missing something or if I'm overkilling on something."I think shoving more condi management on Berserker would be overtuning. It needs to have a weakness, every spec does. The problem is that some specs don't and they should.

Please look over what was suggested previously for Berserker and let me know what you think. There may be some other things that I liked and went with that may be overkill as well lol.

[Sobx.1758]

@"Vancho.8750" said:The idea is to bring Berserker as a Bruiser Roamer for pvp instead of just sidenoder we already have Spellbreaker for that. So it is in line with Soulbeast roamer build or holo where it can do little bit of everything but generally not as good as full blown teamfighter or sidenoder( decap shenanigans and all of that).

I have pretty much a single, but a rather major (from my point of view) issue with that and that's the fact the berserker -both thematically and mechanically- seems to be literally the least fitting spec for a warrior "bruiser" build. Isn't this what core/spb aim for much more than the berk espec? It's basically trying to change berserker into something that warrior already has, isn't it?

[Grand Marshal.4098]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Vancho.8750" said:The idea is to bring Berserker as a Bruiser Roamer for pvp instead of just sidenoder we already have Spellbreaker for that. So it is in line with Soulbeast roamer build or holo where it can do little bit of everything but generally not as good as full blown teamfighter or sidenoder( decap shenanigans and all of that).

I have pretty much a single, but a rather major (from my point of view) issue with that and that's the fact that berserker -both thematically and mechanically- seems to be literally the least fitting spec for a warrior "bruiser" build. Isn't this what core/spb aim for much more than the berk espec? It's basically trying to change berserker into something that warrior already has, isn't it?

TBH I always saw Berserker as a warrior toned up to 11. And I believe many more do so as well. So unlike Spellbreaker, I think Berserker has no issue imitating Core Warrior in that aspect. Which would ultimately be the tradeoff.

Berserker as a spec with it's skills being more vulnerable to condi > But Warrior (core traits and skills) cannot reach that level of power Berserker wields

Which ultimately would not underwhelm Core Warrior, even if the case usually is that Especs are always superior to their core variant.

[Vancho.8750]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Vancho.8750" said:The idea is to bring Berserker as a Bruiser Roamer for pvp instead of just sidenoder we already have Spellbreaker for that. So it is in line with Soulbeast roamer build or holo where it can do little bit of everything but generally not as good as full blown teamfighter or sidenoder( decap shenanigans and all of that).

I have pretty much a single, but a rather major (from my point of view) issue with that and that's the fact that berserker -both thematically and mechanically- seems to be literally the least fitting spec for a warrior "bruiser" build. Isn't this what core/spb aim for much more than the berk espec? It's basically trying to change berserker into something that warrior already has, isn't it?Warrior as a whole can't be anything but bruiser, Spellbreaker falls under the support teamfight or sidenoder positions because of the main mechanic that is all about preventing and stopping something so it fits there better and I don't think is a good idea every speck to do the same thing. Berserker is all about doing damage but it really lacks staying power so it can't really win sidenodes cause it can't handle 2v1 ganks, but because of the damage it can be a good ganker it just needs some help with that, so a position as a roamer like holo or ranger would be better suited. It can go for a damage teamfighter but it would need huge buffs to sustain since it is a melee face tanking speck and it would need something like necro shroud to function in there.

[Vancho.8750]

@"Lan Deathrider.5910"
Most of the suggestion are there as different things that can help out and not all should be in as changes if something is made.The first part is broad strokes since the PvP balance team can't change how stuff functions but they can change numbers. Allot of the functionality suggestions are there maybe for the future, maybe in a year when the expansion drops someone would like one of them and think that might be a good idea and pop it in there.For the mobility issues I think there should be something that gives berserker some sticking power outside of weapons and almost every class has some kind of teleport or large speed boost or both, warrior can't even take advantage of speed runes outside of combat, necro is actually faster then warrior by supplementing with a rune.I would prefer if there was a way to reset the supper speed like you suggest on some trait but they can't change that currently .Making Savage leap 900 would be good my idea comes from https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rocket_Boots so with recharge it will be inline since it isn't that high impact skill by its own maybe higher cooldown recharge, but it is kinda iffy since rocket boots does get reduce recharge trait so i don't really know. Getting both savage leap and bulls charge doesn't really give much room to work with on the utility bar and warrior utility slots are worth allot, but then again having allot of mobility might be OP it needs to be tested by hand.I like @Grand Marshal.4098 but I would prefer if it was short cd short block instead of long block so it is more reactive and not pseudo invuln phase, short enough to block bursts but not long enough so people throw unblockables at you. I would prefer the rage skills to be short low impact by themselves but to activate traits so something like outrage is fine since it does one thing but it gets its power from running the stunbreak traits. Lower cooldown would be good, i dislike that they nerfed it by 100% almost everything got 30% reduction this was overkill, 15s would still be pushing it since it only stunbreaks. Other option is giving it 5 damage aoe get reduction per target hit kind of deal, but i like it simple since Berserker is simple and Berserkers should no be asked to count. Also getting less hindered by cc would fit the role play on berserker better.
I think conditions should not be the weakness of berserker though, since to do damage you have to get close and it really doesn't have a way to stop being overwhelmed by attacks since it has to face tank all of them till it walks to the target. I wrote somewhere there about a trait that lets you do bursts without the being hindered so you get a second of resistance or remove the damage mitigating conditions like blind, slow and weakness before hitting a burst, so you get to hit but people still get allot of damage on you with conditions anyway. Feel No Pain for 1s on rage skill is way too OP people still call ignore pain OP 'invuln' 1 second of resistance might be good though or OP needs testing.For Dead or Alive 15% might be good and getting the %HP barrier idea would be good over the passive proc. The Spectral dead or alive might be a good trait also for Defense like you suggest but have some concerns that it would make Spellbreaker really strong bunker.As for Defense it is a mess, most of the minor traits are terrible with no synergy with anything so rolling them with some of the passives from the other traits would be good.So we start with making Adrenal Health the main mechanic of defense first minor Thick skin gets on its current place 5% damage reduction on having Adrenal Health instead of having it on only above HP threshold or stackable per Adrenal Health on 2% and that is on any type of damage not just power. Dogged march gets a proc of Adrenal Health instead of regeneration, not sure if getting over the 3 stack would be too good, the other option is for adrenal health to have bigger stack cap but that gets too complicated, so getting just one stack while walking to a target would be fine as a little bonus to keep the passive going.Gain adrenaline when hit on Thick skin would work kinda fits and rolling armored attack in Spiked armor would be fine, 10% of toughness is 100 power from base if it takes it from the armor it is 220 power that might be allot but i'm not sure.For the mace trait it is really bad it increases the daze to 1.2 so on main hand is really bad, rolling cull the weak as is is fine as a multi purpose part of a weapon trait maybe gain adrenalin when weakening a foe 20% cd reduction and i'm up for suggestions for mace trait maybe just increase damage on mace skills and bursts. Counter blow on mace should be just one second channeled block with a flip skill.

Basically the Plan is getting the Diablo 2 Barbarian .

[Grand Marshal.4098]

I understand what you mean about Shattering Blow, but honestly 2 seconds of block from a specific angle doesnt seem too big of an issue, when current riposte lasts 3 seconds. What I had in mind with the flippable skill is mostly affiliated with minor team support and a skill for Berserker which can get you out of trouble without utilizing either movement or other blocking skills. And if you want you cancel the block and have that 'reaction' you speak off! So a defensive skill which can get the ground ready for your burst, but can also allow you to escape a deathblow.

This skill could give you just enough time to reactivate Berserk or kite away. Current Shattering Blow barely blocks anything. And if you lag (I do a lot) you may end up not blocking anything. So given it's range as a skill, I personally believe that it should function more defensively.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Mkay, let me piece this out bit by bit. I think it is crucial we get it right

@Vancho.8750 said:@"Lan Deathrider.5910"
Most of the suggestion are there as different things that can help out and not all should be in as changes if something is made.The first part is broad strokes since the PvP balance team can't change how stuff functions but they can change numbers. Allot of the functionality suggestions are there maybe for the future, maybe in a year when the expansion drops someone would like one of them and think that might be a good idea and pop it in there.Very true the brunt of what is being asked for is stuff that wont happen until right before or right after EoD is released, and they should be goals to shoot for. But things like block durations and refresh rates are definitely doable.For the mobility issues I think there should be something that gives berserker some sticking power outside of weapons and almost every class has some kind of teleport or large speed boost or both, warrior can't even take advantage of speed runes outside of combat, necro is actually faster then warrior by supplementing with a rune.Signet of Rage, Dagger 5, and Warhorn 4 all give swiftness, so yes you can use speed runes outside of combat. I was running them in WvW before Warclaw was released and I had to moonwalk in front of the Zerg to keep from getting too far ahead. Funny in hindsight. That said said adding in a way to refresh Burst of Aggression is really needed on Berserker.I would prefer if there was a way to reset the supper speed like you suggest on some trait but they can't change that currently.Perhaps, but if there is time in the new year before EoD release we may get it. So long as there is agreement that that is the path forward I think it is safe to ask for it.Making Savage leap 900 would be good my idea comes from https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rocket_Boots so with recharge it will be inline since it isn't that high impact skill by its own maybe higher cooldown recharge, but it is kinda iffy since rocket boots does get reduce recharge trait so i don't really know. Getting both savage leap and bulls charge doesn't really give much room to work with on the utility bar and warrior utility slots are worth allot, but then again having allot of mobility might be OP it needs to be tested by hand.I am 100% down for charges on it. Say, 5s CD between charges, 25s cd on each charge. You are right that it would need to be tested, as all of these proposals would have to be.I like @Grand Marshal.4098 but I would prefer if it was short cd short block instead of long block so it is more reactive and not pseudo invuln phase, short enough to block bursts but not long enough so people throw unblockables at you. I would prefer the rage skills to be short low impact by themselves but to activate traits so something like outrage is fine since it does one thing but it gets its power from running the stunbreak traits. Lower cooldown would be good, i dislike that they nerfed it by 100% almost everything got 30% reduction this was overkill, 15s would still be pushing it since it only stunbreaks. Other option is giving it 5 damage aoe get reduction per target hit kind of deal, but i like it simple since Berserker is simple and Berserkers should no be asked to count. Also getting less hindered by cc would fit the role play on berserker better.
I think we can split the difference here on Shattering Blow, 1/2 is too short, but 2s may be too long. However unblockables thrown at you are unblockables not thrown at a Guardian with its lower health pool. Taking one for the team as it were. I do like the flip over skill idea and I think it is worth considering.

For Outrage, the CD increase was weird in that it has no other effect other to extend Berserk mode. Would you endorse protection on Outrage or are you in favor of it remaining simply a stunbreak? Protection is something that Warrior needs more of frankly and I can see its potential on Outrage, but only if you break a stun.

I think conditions should not be the weakness of berserker though, since to do damage you have to get close and it really doesn't have a way to stop being overwhelmed by attacks since it has to face tank all of them till it walks to the target. I wrote somewhere there about a trait that lets you do bursts without the being hindered so you get a second of resistance or remove the damage mitigating conditions like blind, slow and weakness before hitting a burst, so you get to hit but people still get allot of damage on you with conditions anyway. Feel No Pain for 1s on rage skill is way too OP people still call ignore pain OP 'invuln' 1 second of resistance might be good though or OP needs testing.I think that is fair to discuss, but this is also a problem for Warrior in general not just Berserker. Tactics, Discipline, and Defense all offer ways to mitigate Condi that can benefit Berserker, but you can only take two. Why not have Brawler's Recovery clear two condis or have Cleansing Ire provide 1s of resistance upon activation of a burst skill. This would make Bursts immune to blind which would be a GREAT QOL improvement for Warriors of all specs.For Dead or Alive 15% might be good and getting the %HP barrier idea would be good over the passive proc. The Spectral dead or alive might be a good trait also for Defense like you suggest but have some concerns that it would make Spellbreaker really strong bunker.I am still warry on DorA being buffed. I can see it running away on sustain very quickly, but 15% may be a good balance.

More barrier would be nice, but it would create strong bunkers. So I guess pass on that.

As for Defense it is a mess, most of the minor traits are terrible with no synergy with anything so rolling them with some of the passives from the other traits would be good.So we start with making Adrenal Health the main mechanic of defense first minor Thick skin gets on its current place 5% damage reduction on having Adrenal Health instead of having it on only above HP threshold or stackable per Adrenal Health on 2% and that is on any type of damage not just power. Dogged march gets a proc of Adrenal Health instead of regeneration, not sure if getting over the 3 stack would be too good, the other option is for adrenal health to have bigger stack cap but that gets too complicated, so getting just one stack while walking to a target would be fine as a little bonus to keep the passive going.Alright, so lets recap here.Adrenaline becomes the mechanic of Defense. You can one stack of the current effect per bar of adrenaline spent. Stacks up to 3 times.Thick Skin provides a %damage reduction and % condition damage reduction per stack of Adrenal Health. 2% per stack tops out at 6% reduction. Is that enough? Why not 5%?Let Spiked Armor instead say: Gain retaliation when you are critically hit or when you block an attack (5s). Gaining retaliation grants you one stack of Adrenal health.

This tops out at the current 15% and provides more ways to get Adrenal Health. Would this be OP? (others are totally free to answer that question)

Gain adrenaline when hit on Thick skin would work kinda fits and rolling armored attack in Spiked armor would be fine, 10% of toughness is 100 power from base if it takes it from the armor it is 220 power that might be allot but i'm not sure.I think if we do what I suggest above on Adrenal Health that it would not be needed. Adding in the base trait onto Spiked Armor may be overload at that point though...

Maybe have it be a major trait with 10% of Armor as Power will be fine then? Or add a rider to it. Simple stat conversion traits are lackluster and boring imho.

For the mace trait it is really bad it increases the daze to 1.2 so on main hand is really bad, rolling cull the weak as is is fine as a multi purpose part of a weapon trait maybe gain adrenalin when weakening a foe 20% cd reduction and i'm up for suggestions for mace trait maybe just increase damage on mace skills and bursts. Counter blow on mace should be just one second channeled block with a flip skill.Yes on flip skills on any blocking animation, including other classes that do not already have them. I think weakness on crit would be fine on Mace along with the 20% reduction. What were your thoughts on just extending the Hard CC durations by a flat amount when wielding a mace?Basically the Plan is getting the Diablo 2 Barbarian .Spin to win bishes. Spin to win.

[Yasai.3549]

They should make 100B like Bladestorm, but having a wider range.

Instead of reflecting projectiles, it could just destroy them.

Main reason is to make the skill usable while moving, as well as put some projectile hate on it so Warrior isn't so easily bullied when using GS.

GS for the longest time has been used as a defensive swap and F1 cleave, I feel like making 100B an anti range forward pressure attack will help Warriors keep their enemies on their toes instead of people just dodging that F1 and then slamming on them.

[Vancho.8750]

@"Lan Deathrider.5910"For mobility I think almost all classes have at least one proc trait or built in mechanic that gives them swiftness or movement increase. Warrior gets one on Double Standards of all possible traits and on Burst Mastery 3 second swiftness, there isn't something that lets warrior get bonus move speed from A to B that doesn't sacrifice something on the bar.
For Outrage I think its fine to have it do just the stun break on short cd, maybe Adrenalin on breaking a stun like before, If we put a boon on it 5 second Retaliation instead of Protection, one for some synergy with traits and stacking protection and Rousing resilience would be disgusting 70% damage reduction.
I still think Gain Adrenalin when hit should still be into one of the minor traits or maybe it should take the place of Thick skin and Thick skin should become a mid column trait but buffed in the % reductions with the Adrenal mechanic stacks.The % of something to something are quite boring and should be part of other traits that is all, it doesn't really give much change to gameplay, so like all other classes these kind of traits should be tacked on something. I don't think they will change it to armor though since all classes have toughness to something trait so it will probably stay toughness.I personally dislike the idea of increasing CC durations on skills it would get too ridiculous, I think there is already a meme warrior build that relies on almost perma cc,giving it more ammo is not good idea.For Dead or Alive getting %HP Barrier when hit on entering berserk would fit fine and it would be active trait instead of passive and since it is on Berserker it can't really go out of hand, while Spellbreaker could, but then again it could be fine to be in the defense traitline it just needs testing I can't really tell till I have touched it.Also for the spin to win https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Whirling_Axe this still doesn't give the damn move speed increase.

[Tycura.1982]

Shotgun rifle rework pls

[Grand Marshal.4098]

I believe that Retal on Outrage would bear too many similarities with Spellbreaker skills. Maybe you are correct on Protection being too much, but one would not always pick Rousing Resilience just for the sake of a single skill, right? The idea was 2 sec Protection in default and 3 sec Protection while in Berserk. There is no real way to maintain an upkeep on Protection, so it doesn't neccessarily make you invnincible. Not as much as Feel Not Pain per Rage skill activation (although we still need to find a way to refresh Savage Instinct, probably only via Blood Reckoning and/or Head Butt).

As for Eternal Champion, first the tooltip for Rage skills needs to update whenever the trait is pickued and mention that stab and might proc in stunbreaks. With no stun breaks other than Outrage and Head Butt, the potential this grandmaster wields is arguably subpar. Which was the whole reason Outrage should offer something more. You can ignore Eternal Champion all together and go for a classic stance build and be over with (Defy Pain, Berserker's Stance and Balanced Stance) which is 2 stunbreaks as utilities, pulsing stability, pulsing resistance, pulsing adrenaline and damage mitigation! Granted you can always pick outrage and something else, but it is just too unusable and even if I would love for it to give back a % of adrenalin, I better sacrifice a stun break that needs to be traited (assuming I am not already covered with Might from Forceful Greatsword) for Resistance + Adrenalin.

Retal would work with Shattering Blow though. 1/2 sec is not enough to proc it rn (and genuinely I am not even sure if it counts as blocking or a counter), but a flip skill that can function as both will allow for a drastic insrease in gameplay potential! Retaliation can proc only when traited with Defense, but it will be there.

My view on these 2 skills, is that they need to contrast Featherfoot Grace , a major source of Resistance + Superspeed + Stunbreak on a class with innate counter to both power and condi gameplay, and Imminent Threat , Retaliation + Taunt + Adrenaline. So Outrage contrasts Featherfoot and Shattering Blow Imminent. The block can always be lower, but I believe 2.25 sec is a good bargain for Berserker who has no full counter.

And of course addressing the elephant in the room, Full Counter is leagues superior and more effective than Feel No Pain. It Even pulses Protection if traited, so I see no issue with Berserker having 2 abilities at least on par with Spellbreaker as a defense (if we say that core skills count as Core Warrior skills).

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Protection on Outrage + RR would be great physical damage reduction, but it would be very short lived and Berserker's big issue is staying power. This is the kind of think that it needs for the kind of role we want it to have @Vancho.8750. If 2s base 3s in Berserk Mode is too high for you why not just keep it 2s. Maybe add in if you are in Berserk Mode gain Resistance for 1s. Short durations for obvious reasons.

Outrage: In addition to its current effects grant Protection for 2s if you break a stun. If you are in Berserk Mode gain Resistance for 1s when you break a stun in addition to 2s of Protection.

That said it may be better to shove the Protection and Resistance into Eternal Champion in place of the stability and might. Thoughts on that? It would create a very durable option for the spec, but would be contingent on breaking stuns and not be something that you preemptively cast.

FNP on each rage skill for 1s each may or may not be too much. I can see someone pulling mace/shield + X/sword for an extra 7s of block uptime. It may be enough to perma block+physical invulnerability. So, bad idea.

Why not gain Feel No Pain from Savage Instinct when you leave Berserk Mode as well? That would mesh rather well with Dead or Alive. I can see it added to when you use a heal skill or elite skill. You know, I don't think we have any traits that key off of when you use an elite skill specifically.

Savage Instinct: Gain Feel No Pain for 2s when entering or leaving Berserk Mode or when you use an elite skill. Berserk Mode now breaks Stuns.

Savage Instinct gives the stunbreak now btw @Grand Marshal.4098. I think Berserker is the only class that can have 5 stunbreaks on the bar, one of which being an ammo skill with three more via traits though two of those have 300s CDs now.

Retaliation certainly fits the theme of Shattering Blow... Lets say a 1s block since 2s seems too long but 1/2s is too short. Flip over to end it early, if it lasts its full duration it does the current effects and grants Retaliation for 2s, if you end it early it deals more damage and bleed and grants 3s of retaliation. Double damage and bleed on activate may be too much though. That would be 8 stacks of bleeding. How about 50% more?

Shattering Blow: As it is now, but with a 1s Rock Guard. Option to activate the attack early for 1.5 scaling instead of 1.0 scaling and 6 stacks of bleed instead of 4. Grants Retaliation for 2s if the block lasts its full duration, 3s if it is activated early.

Dead or Alive... Let me see if I am getting what you want right @Vancho.8750.

Dead or Alive: If you take a fatal blow while in Berserk Mode, leave Berserk Mode and heal for 5220 (0.04). While in Berserk Mode gain 2% of you HP as barrier when hit, While out of Berserk Mode gain 1% of you HP as barrier when hit.

I'm removing the gaining 10% more healing from that version. 2% of HP when struck as barrier would be at most 900 barrier realistically in WvW. Far less in PvP. A glass cannon build taking the trait would get 390 barrier in Berserk Mode. This would probably need an ICD of some sort to be honest Vancho, something like a 1s ICD, But does that capture your idea?

[HotDelirium.7984]

Spellbreaker seems like its more slanted for pvp combat. There are builds that are just more efficient overall for PVE gameplay.-Meditations skills seem so PVP centered and should get an overhaul for PVE.-Featherfoot Grace-Superspeed in PVE is rarely useful, I'm just not in many scenarios where I receive a lot of condition damage and if I am a 30 second timer doesn't help much.-Sight beyond sight is so oddly specific, its great for PVP but in PVE if I already have high precision so my criticals are just fine and make it irrelevant, removing blindness is just as irrelevant since it takes 1 attack to get rid of it, maybe it could cut current condition duration on you or something more useful.-I like some of the traits but I do think Meditations should get its own enhancement from a trait i.e. reduce cooldown/more damage etc.-Magebane maybe in PVE when it despawns could maybe knock them down if they were never pulled. In PVE creatures rarely run away from you like they would in PVP.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Protection on Outrage + RR would be great physical damage reduction, but it would be very short lived and Berserker's big issue is staying power. This is the kind of think that it needs for the kind of role we want it to have @Vancho.8750. If 2s base 3s in Berserk Mode is too high for you why not just keep it 2s. Maybe add in if you are in Berserk Mode gain Resistance for 1s. Short durations for obvious reasons.

Outrage: In addition to its current effects grant Protection for 2s if you break a stun. If you are in Berserk Mode gain Resistance for 1s when you break a stun in addition to 2s of Protection.

That said it may be better to shove the Protection and Resistance into Eternal Champion in place of the stability and might. Thoughts on that? It would create a very durable option for the spec, but would be contingent on breaking stuns and not be something that you preemptively cast.

FNP on each rage skill for 1s each may or may not be too much. I can see someone pulling mace/shield + X/sword for an extra 7s of block uptime. It may be enough to perma block+physical invulnerability. So, bad idea.

Why not gain Feel No Pain from Savage Instinct when you leave Berserk Mode as well? That would mesh rather well with Dead or Alive. I can see it added to when you use a heal skill or elite skill. You know, I don't think we have any traits that key off of when you use an elite skill specifically.

Savage Instinct: Gain Feel No Pain for 2s when entering or leaving Berserk Mode or when you use an elite skill. Berserk Mode now breaks Stuns.

Savage Instinct gives the stunbreak now btw @Grand Marshal.4098. I think Berserker is the only class that can have 5 stunbreaks on the bar, one of which being an ammo skill with three more via traits though two of those have 300s CDs now.

Retaliation certainly fits the theme of Shattering Blow... Lets say a 1s block since 2s seems too long but 1/2s is too short. Flip over to end it early, if it lasts its full duration it does the current effects and grants Retaliation for 2s, if you end it early it deals more damage and bleed and grants 3s of retaliation. Double damage and bleed on activate may be too much though. That would be 8 stacks of bleeding. How about 50% more?

Shattering Blow: As it is now, but with a 1s Rock Guard. Option to activate the attack early for 1.5 scaling instead of 1.0 scaling and 6 stacks of bleed instead of 4. Grants Retaliation for 2s if the block lasts its full duration, 3s if it is activated early.

Dead or Alive... Let me see if I am getting what you want right @Vancho.8750.

Dead or Alive: If you take a fatal blow while in Berserk Mode, leave Berserk Mode and heal for 5220 (0.04). While in Berserk Mode gain 2% of you HP as barrier when hit, While out of Berserk Mode gain 1% of you HP as barrier when hit.

I'm removing the gaining 10% more healing from that version. 2% of HP when struck as barrier would be at most 900 barrier realistically in WvW. Far less in PvP. A glass cannon build taking the trait would get 390 barrier in Berserk Mode. This would probably need an ICD of some sort to be honest Vancho, something like a 1s ICD, But does that capture your idea?

Outrage : I don't mind it if it simply retains a protection effect. But a source of resistance would be cool as well! Which boils down to Eternal Champion. I don't think they will ever change the trait as a whole, but if they replaced stab and might for protection and resistance it would be far more sustainable. Then again we are left with a subpar Outrage yet again. Assuming we don't change the trait, Protection + adrenaline sounds good enough. Durations as mentioned. CD as well.

Shattering Blow : I just played a custom build with this skill. We were forcing the enemy back at their spawn in EB (red side). I noticed that most of the times the block didn't proc. Like at all. The only succesful blocks were against Rangers who pressed longbow 2 or 5 and thus give me enough time to activate the skill and get something out of it. But in this instance it provides no ranged advantage. So I used it defensively most of the time. Therefore I still feel that 1.5 sec if not 2 sec fits it better. But that's me. I simply believe that as a skill it needs to make me wanna equip it even if I don't use it's active effect on my own. Furthermore your block stays there, so you can run off behind, with it's active procing anyway, but if you dont remain near, you sole the possibly high dmg output. Agree on Retal duration and yes, 50% dmg increase for the skill if used early is more balanced.

Savage Instinct : How about refreshing it upon manually refreshing our primal burst? So enter berserk, leaver berserk (f2), Blood reckoning and head butt. Head Butt will not grant FNP if berserk is on CD or not activated.

Dead or Alive : Maybe instead of getting hit for barrier, leaving Berserk mode manually grants some barrier? like half what warhorn 5 provides (basically a traited vigorous shout heal, but barrier). Basically your defense mechanism for not when using Berserk and have access to FNP. Ending Berserk mode manually grants 940 Barrier, but when receiving a lethal blow and forced out of berserk heal (the heal you mentioned) and gain 1,240 barrier. CD of 12 seconds? It is not much barrier to cleave through anyway.

[Vancho.8750]

@Grand Marshal.4098 @Lan Deathrider.5910Eternal Champion champion is good because of the stability, stunbreakes are actually terrible without having a second part to them, for example stun break and then evade or stun break and then daze the opponents this lets you move away, Eternal Champion lets you move away with the Stability so it should get Resistance instead of might, even a little bit of supperspeed would be good there but that might be too much.

Berserk Mode should get stun break by default, that just feels like QoL for PVE though so its headbutt berserk full dps.

My %HP barrier on hit idea is just https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spectral_Armor which lets you enter the large fights and do some counter pressure without losing half of your HP just from the throw away AoEs, both Necro and Warrior are face tanks and have to walk to the target through all kinds of bullshit, but the shroud on necro lets it control how much HP you lose. So getting an initial large ish barrier per hit at the start and the % gets lower as Berserk continues on, the increased % healing stays on. They could also rename it to Brawlhalla since it would let you brawl.@Lan Deathrider.5910 they way you describe it is good but my idea putting it on Dead or Alive is so the passive trait is reworked into Active trait, but it can also be moved to anywhere from a skill to a trait, so maybe instead of the 300s lesser Ignore pain you get a trait that lets you ignore some pain with barrier but I'm still not sure about the condition that triggers it .I think that the idea of @Grand Marshal.4098 for Dead or Alive could work, getting just flat Barrier when entering Berserk maybe lets say 2k and the not die trait on short cd so you have the benefit all the time instead of once in a blue moon with low Heal around 1 to 2k enough to be Alive and a barrier on top of it to have some time to not die. All good ideas the devs could pick and choose.For Savage Instinct I think resetting FNP would be too much, but getting lesser damage reduction when doing something would be good.
I still think there should be something that lets Berserker not be hindered too much by CC conditions, so it fits the RP of the Unrelenting Warrior that only death could stop, so yeah something that lets you do Bursts that removes weakness, Blind and slow and lets you slap people.
Almost forgot why does Arc Divider doesn't have whirl finisher on each spin.

[DKRathalos.9625]

What do you guys think about Warrior's dependency on Discipline? Since it's provide a lot for warrior's gameplayFast Hand, gain adrenaline on weapon swap, reduce burst cd, increase burst damage etc2. I feel like when playing warrior without discipline something is missing.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@DKRathalos.9625 said:What do you guys think about Warrior's dependency on Discipline? Since it's provide a lot for warrior's gameplayFast Hand, gain adrenaline on weapon swap, reduce burst cd, increase burst damage etc2. I feel like when playing warrior without discipline something is missing.

You get used to it. 5s weapon swap should be warrior baseline to be honest.

[Vancho.8750]

@"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

FNP on each rage skill for 1s each may or may not be too much. I can see someone pulling mace/shield + X/sword for an extra 7s of block uptime. It may be enough to perma block+physical invulnerability. So, bad idea.

Checked other skills and Arenanet is fine with 3 second block + 3/4 dodge with a cc on one skill https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Counterattack https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Counterattack_Kick so investing in multiple 1 second blocks would actually be fine by comparison. If skills function like https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bandit%27s_Defense it would be better since the retaliation attacks on warrior (except FC witch they stacked to actually do something ) don't hit much and do not actually deter people from spamming their skills at you, which is the whole point of them.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Vancho.8750 said:

@"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

FNP on each rage skill for 1s each may or may not be too much. I can see someone pulling mace/shield + X/sword for an extra 7s of block uptime. It may be enough to perma block+physical invulnerability. So, bad idea.

Checked other skills and Arenanet is fine with 3 second block + 3/4 dodge with a cc on one skill

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Counterattack

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Counterattack_Kick

so investing in multiple 1 second blocks would actually be fine by comparison. If skills function like

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bandit%27s_Defense

it would be better since the retaliation attacks on warrior (except FC witch they stacked to actually do something ) don't hit much and do not actually deter people from spamming their skills at you, which is the whole point of them.

Feel No Pain would be a 1s physical invulnerability not a block. I mentioned blocks because you could take mace/shield + X/sword for 7s of block uptime in addition to the theoretical up time of damage immunity via Defiant Stance, Endure Pain, 2 rage skills, and Headbutt coming out at 13ish seconds of physical immunity with stances also traited, 5 of which is also condi damage immunity.

So 20s of either blocks or invulns, which means then that OH sword would be available in the end for another ~2s of block, followed by weapon swap to mace/shield for another 2s block on mace, and then shield5 should be off CD for another 3s. At that point the 2 utility rage skills and headbutt are off CD for another 3s. There is now a 2s window where you are vunlerable before Defiant stance comes off CD, follow by Mace 2 again and Endure Pain is off CD.

So you see, while initially regaining Feel No Pain on rage skill use sounds fair and useful even at a 1s duration it would be enough to create a very tanky bunker build.

Perhaps Smash Brawler should refresh Feel No Pain on Primal Burst Attacks with a 5s ICD? That is in line with their non reduced CDs and keeps Decapitate from creating an unkillable monster. There is also counter play then because you'd have to hit with the burst.

[Vancho.8750]

@Lan Deathrider.5910If we ignore reworks on FNP resets and give better functionality on block retaliate weapons it would probably help the overall state of warrior, even making mace good main hand defensive weapon could open up more off hand options.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Vancho.8750 said:@"Lan Deathrider.5910"If we ignore reworks on FNP resets and give better functionality on block retaliate weapons it would probably help the overall state of warrior, even making mace good main hand defensive weapon could open up more off hand options.

The answer to that then is thus:Make Riposte and Counter Attack both give a 0.75s evade during their attack animation, not just Riposte as I suggested in the main post (also suggesting increasing the evade frames from 0.5s to 0.75s from the original suggestion).Change their flipover skill so that if used it executes the attack rather than the attack executing upon blocking a melee attack, if the skill is not used then it grants 6 adrenaline. This is similar to https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Counterattack

Remove the chance to gain Retaliation on block from Spiked armor. Reduce the CD to 10s.Swap Armored Attack with Cleansing Ire. Armored Attack grants 13% of your Toughness as Power, when you block an attack you gain 3s of Retaliation, 1s CD.

The CD reduction on Spiked Armor is for reducing its overall effectiveness. The increase on the stat conversion for Armored Attack is for moving it up a tier. The CD on Armored Attack is so that you cannot park yourself on overlapping AoEs to trigger the trait rapidly. The point of the Duration/CD ratio is to help deter against attacking the warrior with multi hit skills. Besides they nerfed Retaliation damage pretty hard in competitive play. Nobody should be killing themselves just by attacking a single warrior with this trait taken, but would make them pull away more quickly and stop them from spamming multihit skills on the warrior while the warrior is also attacking them.

This would give the warrior more of a window to use things like Counter Blow and Riposte to better effect since it would deter multi hit skills and push foes into using large single hit attacks instead.

Honestly it gives the warrior some depth that it is currently missing.