Which profession can outplay everything?

[Siryx.5124]

Have you tried playing better?

[Arheundel.6451]

@Junkpile.7439 said:

@"KrHome.1920" said:Ranger

Mobility, longbow and tons of immobilize options has the potential to counter everything. The target has only one option to stall the fight, which is breaking LOS. But breaking LOS alone won't win fights for you.

The damage of a durable ranger build isn't that great but you will lose the attrition battle against every semi decent one eventually.

I just don't see how ranger could win against thief.

No class can "win" against shortbow 5 ...except another thief maybe, other than that...the good player always wins regardless of the class...but thief players just run away and come back with different build maybe after quickly 1200 range away

[kash.9213]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Junkpile.7439 said:

@"KrHome.1920" said:Ranger

Mobility, longbow and tons of immobilize options has the potential to counter everything. The target has only one option to stall the fight, which is breaking LOS. But breaking LOS alone won't win fights for you.

The damage of a durable ranger build isn't that great but you will lose the attrition battle against every semi decent one eventually.

I just don't see how ranger could win against thief.

No class can "win" against

shortbow 5

...except another thief maybe, other than that...the good player always wins regardless of the class...but thief players just run away and come back with different build maybe after quickly 1200 range away

Shortbow 5 costs 6 Initiative, if you're forcing them to panic port with that then good job and that's about the time to close distance or pull while they're Initiative is replenishing. Or they'll just bug out but that's a win for you.

[Svarty.8019]

@Justine.6351 said:

@Svarty.8019 said:, but surely skill should not be a crutch? How come unskilled players are punished just for being who they are?

My hope for the future of this game dies a little more with mentalities like these.

It's perfectly reasonable for excellent players to wish for elitist, skill-focused gameplay to continue, but if the developers want to appeal to a broader audience, the goal of a more forgiving combat system would be advisable.

[ArchonWing.9480]

The best way to outplay everyone is to whine about balance so they destroy w/e you're complaining about. And if they make the game unplayable, then everyone loses and you will have the better sense to find something better to do.

Win-win!

Also, that really depends on what you think outplayed is. To me, it's not about being the l33t 1v1'er but rather being able to handle w/e is thrown your way, since people can just refuse to fight you or you get +1'd if you take so long. I mean, if you chase me halfway across the map with 2, and run into my zerg, then I think you were definitely outplayed.

The sign of a weak minded player is one that assumes everyone will play by their rules, and stubbornly cling to said delusion. You can of course see many posts that are like that. Most have something to prove. "Oh my class is so hard and I have to press 35654654 times while that other class just takes 3" If you realize how stupid it is to tryhard in a game like this, then you will at least have won mentally. It's something you can easily exploit.

[Yasai.3549]

Thief.Can't get outplayed if yu don't even play the game :^)

[Dawdler.8521]

@kash.9213 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Junkpile.7439 said:

@"KrHome.1920" said:Ranger

Mobility, longbow and tons of immobilize options has the potential to counter everything. The target has only one option to stall the fight, which is breaking LOS. But breaking LOS alone won't win fights for you.

The damage of a durable ranger build isn't that great but you will lose the attrition battle against every semi decent one eventually.

I just don't see how ranger could win against thief.

No class can "win" against

shortbow 5

...except another thief maybe, other than that...the good player always wins regardless of the class...but thief players just run away and come back with different build maybe after quickly 1200 range away

Shortbow 5 costs 6 Initiative, if you're forcing them to panic port with that then good job and that's about the time to close distance or pull while they're Initiative is replenishing. Or they'll just bug out but that's a win for you.How exactly do you pull or close distance when they are already beyond rendering range in a second or two?

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@kash.9213 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Junkpile.7439 said:

@"KrHome.1920" said:Ranger

Mobility, longbow and tons of immobilize options has the potential to counter everything. The target has only one option to stall the fight, which is breaking LOS. But breaking LOS alone won't win fights for you.

The damage of a durable ranger build isn't that great but you will lose the attrition battle against every semi decent one eventually.

I just don't see how ranger could win against thief.

No class can "win" against

shortbow 5

...except another thief maybe, other than that...the good player always wins regardless of the class...but thief players just run away and come back with different build maybe after quickly 1200 range away

Shortbow 5 costs 6 Initiative, if you're forcing them to panic port with that then good job and that's about the time to close distance or pull while they're Initiative is replenishing. Or they'll just bug out but that's a win for you.How exactly do you pull or close distance when they are already beyond rendering range in a second or two?

Some other classes have ports or ranged attacks btw, hell even engie with holo leap and rockets boots (assuming they are using it) can keep up with theif

[whoknocks.4935]

@"solemn.9608" said:D/D Air Barrier Weaver as a solo roamer is probably your most consistent bet 1v1 and sometimes 1vX. In addition to winning most of the 1v1s you encounter, anytime you're not winning you can literally just run away with superspeed/barrier/heals to keep you alive while doing it.

Power Barrier Scrapper does extremely well vs the vast majority of matchups 1v1 (sometimes 1vX) as well and is basically in the same nature as D/D Air barrier weaver, you can run away with perma-superspeed while healing, gaining barrier, boons etc ..

Aside from that I would recommend thief, although I have no builds in particular to recommend because I don't play thief very much anymore.

Weaver/ele Build (take lightning flash instead of primordial stance if you prefer)http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?PGgAgilVwkYPsImJWUXbvXA-z1YYhgGqRTRE3O0egnRsSgeVAS9SIgufARAvmXcGB-w

Scrapper/engi Build (switch 1 or 2 trinkets to berserker if you'd prefer to be slightly glassier)http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?PegAIJlFw8YOsKWKO8TZtPA-zVZYBRVHxYQgGBtdINJMiVi0rKwwXgA618izIA-w

Weaver/ele video of build if you're skeptical

Scrapper/engi video of build if you're skeptical

Having a blast with your dd weaver build, of course you are a god at playing it, but i see it's potential in good hands.

[Opal.9324]

@Svarty.8019 said:

@Opal.9324 said:

@Svarty.8019 said:I've seen some amazing play by

one

rev.I've seen eles that seem to never die.I've seen thieves that can never be caught.I've seen enigneers that seem invincible.

They all require uncommon amounts of talent to produce this effect, but surely skill should not be a crutch? How come unskilled players are punished just for being who they are?

Maybe the unskilled players should practice until they become skilled? People aren't just born good at things. All those amazing players you meet have probably been playing and improving their skills for a long time. Of course, if someone just keeps telling themself "I'm unskilled because that's just who I am", they will probably never get better.

That's a very tropey response. I'm sure I've seen it a hundred times or more. Doubtless, it's easy for people to type because they know there are lots of people who agree that skill SHOULD dominate. There's a certain, twisted logic to that thought pattern.... but it's boring.Unskilled players can be unskilled because of circumstances;

• Disability
• Age - it's known that old folks lose their twitchiness.
• Time - some people have real lives, and CAN'T dedicate the time to the game that they'd like to.

That's not to say that every unskilled player fits into one of these categories, some just don't care about how well they do, but the gap between skilled and unskilled in GW2 is such that even a slightly less skilled player can NEVER EVER beat someone better than them. That's poor design.

I have a real life (well, HAD before a certain pandemic showed up), and I like to think I'm at least somewhat decent. I'm also not very "twitchy" most of the time, but there are builds out there that don't require that, and not being twitchy doesn't necessarily make you unskilled. But if not skill, what should determine who wins? Pretty much anything that involves 2 or more people competing is going to have skill involved, unless you make it based on something like RNG or who has the most OP cheese build. Neither of those sound like much fun to me.

[ledernierrempart.6871]

@Junkpile.7439 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:Ranger

Mobility, longbow and tons of immobilize options has the potential to counter everything. The target has only one option to stall the fight, which is breaking LOS. But breaking LOS alone won't win fights for you.

The damage of a durable ranger build isn't that great but you will lose the attrition battle against every semi decent one eventually.

I just don't see how ranger could win against thief.

ranger and engineer are the best class to counter thieves :)ranger because of very high long range burst and reveal. also with very high melee burst and immobilisation.engineer because of reveal, blind immunity, superspeed and CC.

[TheGrimm.5624]

@subversiontwo.7501 said:The answer is the Thief (the way that the topic was framed and the question phrased) and no other answer is informed or honest.

If you are mainly looking to play and survive the Thief is the only class that can pick their fights at will and even reset their fights at will should they choose not to commit after engaging.

This also makes Thieves end up in this situation even just past the skill floor. You don't have to be particularily good at the class to pick your fights and escape them if they turn out less than ideal. This allows you to beat any class, even if you can not beat every player, by never really losing unless you commit to the fight to get caught.

I will have to disagree with you here. Partly in how the question was interrupted, by outplayed I translate to fight and win. You are right, by choosing which fights are to be had thief has one of the best disenages. But if a thief runs, they right there have been outplayed. And considering the number of thieves that run, that shows they can not outplay all others. So will agree to disagree just based on interpretation of outplayed. In life and death battles I would agree with Sun Tzu. But in video games, those that run, have been outplayed since they are being forced from the field.

[TheGrimm.5624]

@Apokriphos.7042 said:I agree with the previous poster.

While thief and mirage are strong in getting to choose or not their winning engagements, Condi Rev is by far the strongest 1vX roamer in the current meta.

Condi rev is a really good roamer but can be outdone if a player keeps their distance and saves their CC when the Rev is trying to pass off its condi's back. Its can also be bested by other condi builds that can pass more condi's back to it. So strong build, but if constantly kited can be dropped by simply better positioning. So again, wouldn't give the Tolkien title of one to rule them all even if I enjoy this build too.

[kash.9213]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@kash.9213 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Junkpile.7439 said:

@"KrHome.1920" said:Ranger

Mobility, longbow and tons of immobilize options has the potential to counter everything. The target has only one option to stall the fight, which is breaking LOS. But breaking LOS alone won't win fights for you.

The damage of a durable ranger build isn't that great but you will lose the attrition battle against every semi decent one eventually.

I just don't see how ranger could win against thief.

No class can "win" against

shortbow 5

...except another thief maybe, other than that...the good player always wins regardless of the class...but thief players just run away and come back with different build maybe after quickly 1200 range away

Shortbow 5 costs 6 Initiative, if you're forcing them to panic port with that then good job and that's about the time to close distance or pull while they're Initiative is replenishing. Or they'll just bug out but that's a win for you.How exactly do you pull or close distance when they are already beyond rendering range in a second or two?

Is there a profession that doesn't have access to anything useful? It's a build choice, I could take utility thieves with a proper build normally take but I take Scorpion Wire instead because while it's not as strong as other utility, it makes sense in WvW or at least our matchups. I don't have a good answer to your question, I pull other thieves when I think they'll port or evade the same way I pull and close in to lock up mesmers who stealth into our groups before they portal everyone in, it helps to watch around the area to see what people are plotting so you can lead them.

[Justine.6351]

Erm why are there comments mysteriously gone? bug?

[Svarty.8019]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Svarty.8019 said:

@Opal.9324 said:

@Svarty.8019 said:I've seen some amazing play by

one

rev.I've seen eles that seem to never die.I've seen thieves that can never be caught.I've seen enigneers that seem invincible.

They all require uncommon amounts of talent to produce this effect, but surely skill should not be a crutch? How come unskilled players are punished just for being who they are?

Maybe the unskilled players should practice until they become skilled? People aren't just born good at things. All those amazing players you meet have probably been playing and improving their skills for a long time. Of course, if someone just keeps telling themself "I'm unskilled because that's just who I am", they will probably never get better.

That's a very tropey response. I'm sure I've seen it a hundred times or more. Doubtless, it's easy for people to type because they know there are lots of people who agree that skill SHOULD dominate. There's a certain, twisted logic to that thought pattern.... but it's boring.Unskilled players can be unskilled because of circumstances;

• Disability
• Age - it's known that old folks lose their twitchiness.
• Time - some people have real lives, and CAN'T dedicate the time to the game that they'd like to.

That's not to say that every unskilled player fits into one of these categories, some just don't care about how well they do, but the gap between skilled and unskilled in GW2 is such that even a slightly less skilled player can NEVER EVER beat someone better than them. That's poor design.

That's not poor design, that is the nature of skill basically everywhere.

You are basically telling me that sports like kendo, for example, are badly designed just because I can't realistically beat someone who has the 8th dan?No. There might be circumstances to it, maybe I am disabled, maybe I don't have as much time to train kendo as I would like to, maybe I am older and therfore can't react as fast as a younger opponent.

But this is just the nature of things like these. Kendo as a sport is not badly designed just because I can't beat someone who has dedicated way more time and work in training it than I did.

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Svarty.8019 said:

@Opal.9324 said:

@Svarty.8019 said:I've seen some amazing play by

one

rev.I've seen eles that seem to never die.I've seen thieves that can never be caught.I've seen enigneers that seem invincible.

They all require uncommon amounts of talent to produce this effect, but surely skill should not be a crutch? How come unskilled players are punished just for being who they are?

Maybe the unskilled players should practice until they become skilled? People aren't just born good at things. All those amazing players you meet have probably been playing and improving their skills for a long time. Of course, if someone just keeps telling themself "I'm unskilled because that's just who I am", they will probably never get better.

That's a very tropey response. I'm sure I've seen it a hundred times or more. Doubtless, it's easy for people to type because they know there are lots of people who agree that skill SHOULD dominate. There's a certain, twisted logic to that thought pattern.... but it's boring.Unskilled players can be unskilled because of circumstances;

• Disability
• Age - it's known that old folks lose their twitchiness.
• Time - some people have real lives, and CAN'T dedicate the time to the game that they'd like to.

That's not to say that every unskilled player fits into one of these categories, some just don't care about how well they do, but the gap between skilled and unskilled in GW2 is such that even a slightly less skilled player can NEVER EVER beat someone better than them. That's poor design.

That's not poor design, that is the nature of skill basically everywhere.

You are basically telling me that sports like kendo, for example, are badly designed just because I can't realistically beat someone who has the 8th dan?No. There might be circumstances to it, maybe I am disabled, maybe I don't have as much time to train kendo as I would like to, maybe I am older and therfore can't react as fast as a younger opponent.

But this is just the nature of things like these. Kendo as a sport is not badly designed just because I can't beat someone who has dedicated way more time and work in training it than I did.

Nice strawman.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@Svarty.8019 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Svarty.8019 said:

@Opal.9324 said:

@Svarty.8019 said:I've seen some amazing play by

one

rev.I've seen eles that seem to never die.I've seen thieves that can never be caught.I've seen enigneers that seem invincible.

They all require uncommon amounts of talent to produce this effect, but surely skill should not be a crutch? How come unskilled players are punished just for being who they are?

Maybe the unskilled players should practice until they become skilled? People aren't just born good at things. All those amazing players you meet have probably been playing and improving their skills for a long time. Of course, if someone just keeps telling themself "I'm unskilled because that's just who I am", they will probably never get better.

That's a very tropey response. I'm sure I've seen it a hundred times or more. Doubtless, it's easy for people to type because they know there are lots of people who agree that skill SHOULD dominate. There's a certain, twisted logic to that thought pattern.... but it's boring.Unskilled players can be unskilled because of circumstances;

• Disability
• Age - it's known that old folks lose their twitchiness.
• Time - some people have real lives, and CAN'T dedicate the time to the game that they'd like to.

That's not to say that every unskilled player fits into one of these categories, some just don't care about how well they do, but the gap between skilled and unskilled in GW2 is such that even a slightly less skilled player can NEVER EVER beat someone better than them. That's poor design.

That's not poor design, that is the nature of skill basically everywhere.

You are basically telling me that sports like kendo, for example, are badly designed just because I can't realistically beat someone who has the 8th dan?No. There might be circumstances to it, maybe I am disabled, maybe I don't have as much time to train kendo as I would like to, maybe I am older and therfore can't react as fast as a younger opponent.

But this is just the nature of things like these. Kendo as a sport is not badly designed just because I can't beat someone who has dedicated way more time and work in training it than I did.

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Svarty.8019 said:

@Opal.9324 said:

@Svarty.8019 said:I've seen some amazing play by

one

rev.I've seen eles that seem to never die.I've seen thieves that can never be caught.I've seen enigneers that seem invincible.

They all require uncommon amounts of talent to produce this effect, but surely skill should not be a crutch? How come unskilled players are punished just for being who they are?

Maybe the unskilled players should practice until they become skilled? People aren't just born good at things. All those amazing players you meet have probably been playing and improving their skills for a long time. Of course, if someone just keeps telling themself "I'm unskilled because that's just who I am", they will probably never get better.

That's a very tropey response. I'm sure I've seen it a hundred times or more. Doubtless, it's easy for people to type because they know there are lots of people who agree that skill SHOULD dominate. There's a certain, twisted logic to that thought pattern.... but it's boring.Unskilled players can be unskilled because of circumstances;

• Disability
• Age - it's known that old folks lose their twitchiness.
• Time - some people have real lives, and CAN'T dedicate the time to the game that they'd like to.

That's not to say that every unskilled player fits into one of these categories, some just don't care about how well they do, but the gap between skilled and unskilled in GW2 is such that even a slightly less skilled player can NEVER EVER beat someone better than them. That's poor design.

That's not poor design, that is the nature of skill basically everywhere.

You are basically telling me that sports like kendo, for example, are badly designed just because I can't realistically beat someone who has the 8th dan?No. There might be circumstances to it, maybe I am disabled, maybe I don't have as much time to train kendo as I would like to, maybe I am older and therfore can't react as fast as a younger opponent.

But this is just the nature of things like these. Kendo as a sport is not badly designed just because I can't beat someone who has dedicated way more time and work in training it than I did.

Nice strawman.

A straw man is to propose an intentionally weak argument then refute it in order to prove your point, so it's not really a straw man when he uses the same argument you provided yourself. He applied your argument to another competitive environment to show the underlying assumption you made (less skilled players should be able to beat skilled players) doesn't and shouldn't hold true - that's good argumentation, actually.

[TheGrimm.5624]

@Justine.6351 said:Erm why are there comments mysteriously gone? bug?

Stop and think about that. How can we answer that if we can't see what's not there now.....

:) Maybe people withdrew their comments or a mod, maybe someone posted something that triggered moderation?

[enkidu.5937]

best profession: the trash talker

Even if he is beaten in the field, he will explain to you in chat why he is the true superior gamer. He knows all the secrets, all the tricks, he knows that you were just cheating, and he knows that you mother is a kitten kitten. :p

[TheGrimm.5624]

@enkidu.5937 said:best profession: the trash talker

Even if he is beaten in the field, he will explain to you in chat why he is the true superior gamer. He knows all the secrets, all the tricks, he knows that you were just cheating, and he knows that you mother is a kitten kitten. :p

+10.

I admit, this should be the acceptable answer to the question raised.

[Missad.8495]

It's the teleport hacker, silly.

[Helicity.3416]

I'm 40 years old, work full time and have 3 fingers on my keyboard hand.

Svarty needs to stop posting his litanies of scrubbery tbh. He doesn't know what he is talking about.

Skill can, by definition, never be a crutch, because a crutch in this context is a broken mechanic that circumvents skill.

[Slick.7164]

down load a god mode hack and can play any class

[UsurPator.6521]

@Helicity.3416 said:I'm 40 years old, work full time and have 3 fingers on my keyboard hand.

Svarty needs to stop posting his litanies of scrubbery tbh. He doesn't know what he is talking about.

Skill can, by definition, never be a crutch, because a crutch in this context is a broken mechanic that circumvents skill.

Can cofirm. This man isn't lying.

But also, why don't we just ignoring Svarty? I mean, he has been a menace for the community for years now. Sabotaging GvGs, flaming skilled players in map and team chat etc..

Also, if you really don't want skill to dominate, go play an asian mmo. Just sink in as much money as you have and you'll be able to win against more skilled players.Or, just a stupud idea, play a singleplayer/purely coop game. Then you don't have to worry about skill. But complaining about skill based gameplay in a versus game is just stupid.Imagine football would now be decided after the game by rolling the dice or flipping the coin.

[ArchonWing.9480]

We don't ignore players that choose to roleplay as walking bags, as they do have a role-- they just don't know it. They can help pay for our next legendary. :)

I mean, someone has to lose. But if certain people choose to be the loser from the start, well, that's not my problem.

If you lack mechanical skill, simply pick a bunker build with some extra mobility. Who cares if you make some kid angry because now you're unduelable? Fight on your own terms. The more angry threads people make about you crying about you, the more you win! Don't cry about permastealth; maybe minstrel deadeye is for you! There are many great players that can succeed on many builds. That may not be you, so do whatever it takes to succeed (aside from flat out cheating ofc)