Need serious help against reapers

[Affinity.7253]

@"KrHome.1920" said:

• Kiting a reaper for 5 seconds will decimate his life force by 25%. So what do you think what you should do when he enters shroud?
• You can avoid grasping darkness just via moving a circle around the reaper. It won't connect to you then.
• You can avoid spectral grasp just via moving sideways and when he casts it stop moving. It will overshot then and not hit you.
• Play weaver against reaper as then you have plenty of evasion and burst to counter him. Even staff weaver can kill reaper, but in terms of skill you are not at this point yet.
• Forget about tempest bunker builds. PvP lacks the amulets to make bunkers viable, so don't even try. Play something with mobility and burst.
• Watch metabattle.com for reference what is viable. Most of the current metabuilds run simply marauder and berserker for a reason.

Disengaging when a reaper enters shroud and using the mechanics I mentioned to avoid the two pulls (darkness and grasp) are the things that separate the "mimimi reaper is broken" noob from the one who kills it with ease.

If the reaper plays with support and you as a duo of whatever, you should just aim for the moment he leaves shroud to nuke him. If you play proper builds then no support will be able to save him from a 2v1 hardocus for 10 seconds. If he can trick you with walk and wurm, then you should just get gud. Besides that, both skills have high cooldowns so that he might manage a second shroud uptime you have to kite, but then it should be a walk in the park as he has burned all his utilities.

People seem to think I am just sitting there like a pumpkin. I am kiting, I am jumping puzzle-ing. I am running circles and trying to CC. None of it matters. I can cleanse condi after condi. I am either perma chilled and cannot get away, or trying to contest a point. The brief time I am not perma chilled, I get hit by a 4 second stun then a 5 second fear. Then his reaper buddy comes in with another 7-9 seconds of CC and I am way beyond dead.

@"truce.7539" said:for silver and gold reaper is a problem. best counter for them is "git gud"

Anyone who seriously says this kind of thing on a forum needs to "git gud" at social interaction. If it was obvious what I was supposed to do against them, then sure, learn from experience. I have been fighting them for weeks and still have no friggin clue what I am supposed to do. They don't visibly have any weakness. The most reliable way I have to kill them is wait till they go lich form, then just reflect their extremely overpowered AAs back at them and watch them 3 shot themselves. But "just have your 25 second condi cleansing cooldown up or die" is not good game design. And no, swirling winds doesn't work. It only lasts 6 seconds. That gives them room for 4 auto attacks afterwards, which is like, 28 thousand damage. I can even roll one and its still 21 thousand damage which is more health than I have.

Anyone who says "they aren't overpowered" still needs to answer the question WHY ARE THERE SO MANY OF THEM.

For the past day or so I rarely even see holos anymore. Its always 1 tempest with 2-3 reapers and usually a ranger and something random in the last slot.

[Arheundel.6451]

@Affinity.7253 said:

@"KrHome.1920" said:

• Kiting a reaper for 5 seconds will decimate his life force by 25%. So what do you think what you should do when he enters shroud?
• You can avoid grasping darkness just via moving a circle around the reaper. It won't connect to you then.
• You can avoid spectral grasp just via moving sideways and when he casts it stop moving. It will overshot then and not hit you.
• Play weaver against reaper as then you have plenty of evasion and burst to counter him. Even staff weaver can kill reaper, but in terms of skill you are not at this point yet.
• Forget about tempest bunker builds. PvP lacks the amulets to make bunkers viable, so don't even try. Play something with mobility and burst.
• Watch metabattle.com for reference what is viable. Most of the current metabuilds run simply marauder and berserker for a reason.

Disengaging when a reaper enters shroud and using the mechanics I mentioned to avoid the two pulls (darkness and grasp) are the things that separate the "mimimi reaper is broken" noob from the one who kills it with ease.

If the reaper plays with support and you as a duo of whatever, you should just aim for the moment he leaves shroud to nuke him. If you play proper builds then no support will be able to save him from a 2v1 hardocus for 10 seconds. If he can trick you with walk and wurm, then you should just get gud. Besides that, both skills have high cooldowns so that he might manage a second shroud uptime you have to kite, but then it should be a walk in the park as he has burned all his utilities.

People seem to think I am just sitting there like a pumpkin. I am kiting, I am jumping puzzle-ing. I am running circles and trying to CC. None of it matters. I can cleanse condi after condi. I am either perma chilled and cannot get away, or trying to contest a point. The brief time I am not perma chilled, I get hit by a 4 second stun then a 5 second fear. Then his reaper buddy comes in with another 7-9 seconds of CC and I am way beyond dead.

@"truce.7539" said:for silver and gold reaper is a problem. best counter for them is "git gud"

Anyone who seriously says this kind of thing on a forum needs to "git gud" at social interaction. If it was obvious what I was supposed to do against them, then sure, learn from experience. I have been fighting them for weeks and still have no friggin clue what I am supposed to do. They don't visibly have any weakness. The most reliable way I have to kill them is wait till they go lich form, then just reflect their extremely overpowered AAs back at them and watch them 3 shot themselves. But "just have your 25 second condi cleansing cooldown up or die" is not good game design. And no, swirling winds doesn't work. It only lasts 6 seconds. That gives them room for 4 auto attacks afterwards, which is like, 28 thousand damage. I can even roll one and its still 21 thousand damage which is more health than I have.

Anyone who says "they aren't overpowered" still needs to answer the question WHY ARE THERE SO MANY OF THEM.

For the past day or so I rarely even see holos anymore. Its always 1 tempest with 2-3 reapers and usually a ranger and something random in the last slot.

"Reaper is a spec played by the best players and the best players tend to win"

[AleCenta.2190]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@AleCenta.2190 said:The problem of necromancer is only one, people can’t play vs him at low tiers cause they aren’t good enough.At low tier reaper, core and scourge are almost gods. They are easy to learn and pretty good when not punished. But at higher level it’s another story. You can counter them so hard with common meta builds, they are useless in 1v1 and they got zero mobility compared to thief or renegade. The problem is that people lose time complaining on forums instead of learning how to play against them. An elementalist complaining about reapers cause he can’t stun them sorry but it’s kitten. Necromancer have zero stability when out of shroud and even in shroud it’s only something like 3 sec. Lich is hard countered by many spells, cc stuns blind corrupt blocks.

As a sword weaver I would place reaper near the top of my list of bad matchups 1v1. They hit pretty hard at any range, where I am forced to fight them at melee. They can kite with wurm and walk and regain a ton of lifeforce in the process. Worse they spam chill like mad, which is a real beast of a condition vs. elementalists and they have plenty of CC on top of that. I really feel like this is an uphill battle for me. Am I wrong?

Just to be clear. I am not complaining about reaper or proposing nerfs. Simply observing that, as an elementalist, this is really not an easy fight for me at all.

Yes you are totally wrong, you should delete reapers in 1v1. As a reaper main vs one of my friend playing weaver i could kill him just a very few times and it is an easy match for u.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@AleCenta.2190 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@AleCenta.2190 said:The problem of necromancer is only one, people can’t play vs him at low tiers cause they aren’t good enough.At low tier reaper, core and scourge are almost gods. They are easy to learn and pretty good when not punished. But at higher level it’s another story. You can counter them so hard with common meta builds, they are useless in 1v1 and they got zero mobility compared to thief or renegade. The problem is that people lose time complaining on forums instead of learning how to play against them. An elementalist complaining about reapers cause he can’t stun them sorry but it’s kitten. Necromancer have zero stability when out of shroud and even in shroud it’s only something like 3 sec. Lich is hard countered by many spells, cc stuns blind corrupt blocks.

As a sword weaver I would place reaper near the top of my list of bad matchups 1v1. They hit pretty hard at any range, where I am forced to fight them at melee. They can kite with wurm and walk and regain a ton of lifeforce in the process. Worse they spam chill like mad, which is a real beast of a condition vs. elementalists and they have plenty of CC on top of that. I really feel like this is an uphill battle for me. Am I wrong?

Just to be clear. I am not complaining about reaper or proposing nerfs. Simply observing that, as an elementalist, this is really not an easy fight for me at all.

Yes you are totally wrong, you should delete reapers in 1v1. As a reaper main vs one of my friend playing weaver i could kill him just a very few times and it is an easy match for u.

Yeah? So how do I know your friend isn't just better than you are or you don't know how to play reaper all that well? Or maybe it's something specific to my particular build?

[KrHome.1920]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@AleCenta.2190 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@AleCenta.2190 said:The problem of necromancer is only one, people can’t play vs him at low tiers cause they aren’t good enough.At low tier reaper, core and scourge are almost gods. They are easy to learn and pretty good when not punished. But at higher level it’s another story. You can counter them so hard with common meta builds, they are useless in 1v1 and they got zero mobility compared to thief or renegade. The problem is that people lose time complaining on forums instead of learning how to play against them. An elementalist complaining about reapers cause he can’t stun them sorry but it’s kitten. Necromancer have zero stability when out of shroud and even in shroud it’s only something like 3 sec. Lich is hard countered by many spells, cc stuns blind corrupt blocks.

As a sword weaver I would place reaper near the top of my list of bad matchups 1v1. They hit pretty hard at any range, where I am forced to fight them at melee. They can kite with wurm and walk and regain a ton of lifeforce in the process. Worse they spam chill like mad, which is a real beast of a condition vs. elementalists and they have plenty of CC on top of that. I really feel like this is an uphill battle for me. Am I wrong?

Just to be clear. I am not complaining about reaper or proposing nerfs. Simply observing that, as an elementalist, this is really not an easy fight for me at all.

Yes you are totally wrong, you should delete reapers in 1v1. As a reaper main vs one of my friend playing weaver i could kill him just a very few times and it is an easy match for u.

Yeah? So how do I know your friend isn't just better than you are or you don't know how to play reaper all that well? Or maybe it's something specific to my particular build?You could say that to everyone that says necro is too strong as well.

The consens should be that weaver has a range of skills and traits that can put it into a good position against reapers - esp. these days where corrupts basically don't exist anymore for reaper as they have been nerfed by 50% to useless levels. Even a spite/curses/corrupt boon build won't get any advantage out of corruptions. Such a build could wreck elementalists in the past. Not possible anymore.... So all you need to cleanse these days is chill, that is not even covered with vulnerability since nobody runs spite (bitter chill) anymore. Slot sigil of cleansing and you are fine.

[KrHome.1920]

@OP

Lightning FlashTwist of FateMist FormFiery Greatsword / Tornado

These skills will help you a lot against reapers. Kite shroud with lightning flash and cast ToF or MF when you are stunlocked or could not escape shroud in time. FGS is also good for kiting. Or you can troll him and knock him around in shroud with tornado (he can't corrupt your stab in shroud).

[Shiyo.3578]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@AleCenta.2190 said:The problem of necromancer is only one, people can’t play vs him at low tiers cause they aren’t good enough.At low tier reaper, core and scourge are almost gods. They are easy to learn and pretty good when not punished. But at higher level it’s another story. You can counter them so hard with common meta builds, they are useless in 1v1 and they got zero mobility compared to thief or renegade. The problem is that people lose time complaining on forums instead of learning how to play against them. An elementalist complaining about reapers cause he can’t stun them sorry but it’s kitten. Necromancer have zero stability when out of shroud and even in shroud it’s only something like 3 sec. Lich is hard countered by many spells, cc stuns blind corrupt blocks.

As a sword weaver I would place reaper near the top of my list of bad matchups 1v1. They hit pretty hard at any range, where I am forced to fight them at melee. They can kite with wurm and walk and regain a ton of lifeforce in the process. Worse they spam chill like mad, which is a real beast of a condition vs. elementalists and they have plenty of CC on top of that. I really feel like this is an uphill battle for me. Am I wrong?

Just to be clear. I am not complaining about reaper or proposing nerfs. Simply observing that, as an elementalist, this is really not an easy fight for me at all.

That's the issue, they are not supposed to be 1v1er but can 1v1 nearly anything. Their only counter 1v1 is open fields(doesn't exist in spvp) vs longbow rangers and deadeyes or thieves. Killing them 1v1 on thief takes minutes and is a gigantic waste of time so also not viable in SPvP.

[Shiyo.3578]

@Affinity.7253 said:People seem to think I am just sitting there like a pumpkin. I am kiting, I am jumping puzzle-ing. I am running circles and trying to CC. None of it matters. I can cleanse condi after condi. I am either perma chilled and cannot get away, or trying to contest a point. The brief time I am not perma chilled, I get hit by a 4 second stun then a 5 second fear. Then his reaper buddy comes in with another 7-9 seconds of CC and I am way beyond dead.

Your CC/fear durations are far too long but you're right. There is absolutely nothing you can do, the class has too much mobility, disengage, ranged damage, CC, ranged CC, boon rip, ranged chill, and melee burst. They have a solution to any type of play you can make vs them, which is why fighting them feels like an effort in futility and I might as well go afk if a reaper attacks me half the time.

@KrHome.1920 said:@OP

Lightning FlashTwist of FateMist FormFiery Greatsword / Tornado

These skills will help you a lot against reapers. Kite shroud with lightning flash and cast ToF or MF when you are stunlocked or could not escape shroud in time. FGS is also good for kiting. Or you can troll him and knock him around in shroud with tornado (he can't corrupt your stab in shroud).

Lightning flash - they can still hit you with axe/focus + staff.Twist of fate - 75s CD and they're faster than you after it ends. Their CC has a shorter CD than this.Mist form - they can wait it out.Fiery gsword/tornado - elites, they can just wurm away and kite you.

The class has far too much an an answer for anything. This is why it's overplayed.

[KrHome.1920]

Then his reaper buddy comes in with another 7-9 seconds of CC and I am way beyond dead.Every 2v1 focus destroys you, if your duo partner sucks (or both of you).

2 rangers (yes every single ranger spec!) or deadeyes can immob you forever. 2 warriors can stunlock you forever (spellbreakers can super easy strip your stab before, they don't even need the sigil). 2 revenants will stack more torment than you ever can cleanse. 2 scourges will soft cc you all day. 2 fresh air weavers will oneshot you... I hope you get the point...

Reaper has 2 nasty 3 second stuns: chilled to the bone (he has to drop lich form for it!) and executioner scythe. Safe your stunbreaks for these! And when the 2 reapers can focus you and chain stun you with 2x cttb and 2x exec scythe, then may I ask you what your team mate is doing all the time? Watching the sky? How about some counterpressure, that at least one of the 2 reapers can't do sh** after the stun (which itself deals no damage)?!

Your problem is not reaper but strategic play.

A final hint for beginners: don't (!) stick together against reapers! They are aoe machines and you want to split up to minimize their damage. That sounds trivial, but a lot of my easy wins are simply a result of poor positioning of my encounters, so that soul spiral wrecks multiple players at once.

[Malandain.9532]

Just dodge

[Arheundel.6451]

Every necro player..........:

-Just dodge and kite them-If you focus them they die-Just don't engage them and you "win"-If you play XX or YY you beat my spec...see it's not OP as you say!-If you boil cold water...you get hot water

And to actually beat them?.....-Just range them d'hohhh!

Just a quick summary of all the biased BS you'll be forced to read every damn time a FOTM spec shows up , like every other time before, those playing such FOTM are all Gods of PvP and who lose to them must "Get Gud" ..haaa and ofc they will Wiki read skills of your profession and make up "strategies"

[Arheundel.6451]

@KrHome.1920 said:

Then his reaper buddy comes in with another 7-9 seconds of CC and I am way beyond dead.Every 2v1 focus destroys you, if your duo partner sucks (or both of you).

2 rangers (yes every single ranger spec!) or deadeyes can immob you forever. 2 warriors can stunlock you forever (spellbreakers can super easy strip your stab before, they don't even need the sigil). 2 revenants will stack more torment than you ever can cleanse. 2 scourges will soft cc you all day. 2 fresh air weavers will oneshot you... I hope you get the point...

Reaper has 2 nasty 3 second stuns: chilled to the bone (he has to drop lich form for it!) and executioner scythe. Safe your stunbreaks for these! And when the 2 reapers can focus you and chain stun you with 2x cttb and 2x exec scythe, then may I ask you what your team mate is doing all the time? Watching the sky? How about some counterpressure, that at least one of the 2 reapers can't do sh** after the stun (which itself deals no damage)?!

Your problem is not reaper but strategic play.

A final hint for beginners: don't (!) stick together against reapers! They are aoe machines and you want to split up to minimize their damage. That sounds trivial, but a lot of my easy wins are simply a result of poor positioning of my encounters, so that soul spiral wrecks multiple players at once.

Really? I didn't know you could stunbreak out of CC....Oh so I just need to use my Ranger/deadeye summoning stone when I see a reaper......got it TY!

[AleCenta.2190]

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@AleCenta.2190 said:The problem of necromancer is only one, people can’t play vs him at low tiers cause they aren’t good enough.At low tier reaper, core and scourge are almost gods. They are easy to learn and pretty good when not punished. But at higher level it’s another story. You can counter them so hard with common meta builds, they are useless in 1v1 and they got zero mobility compared to thief or renegade. The problem is that people lose time complaining on forums instead of learning how to play against them. An elementalist complaining about reapers cause he can’t stun them sorry but it’s kitten. Necromancer have zero stability when out of shroud and even in shroud it’s only something like 3 sec. Lich is hard countered by many spells, cc stuns blind corrupt blocks.

As a sword weaver I would place reaper near the top of my list of bad matchups 1v1. They hit pretty hard at any range, where I am forced to fight them at melee. They can kite with wurm and walk and regain a ton of lifeforce in the process. Worse they spam chill like mad, which is a real beast of a condition vs. elementalists and they have plenty of CC on top of that. I really feel like this is an uphill battle for me. Am I wrong?

Just to be clear. I am not complaining about reaper or proposing nerfs. Simply observing that, as an elementalist, this is really not an easy fight for me at all.

That's the issue, they are not supposed to be 1v1er but can 1v1 nearly anything. Their only counter 1v1 is open fields(doesn't exist in spvp) vs longbow rangers and deadeyes or thieves. Killing them 1v1 on thief takes minutes and is a gigantic waste of time so also not viable in SPvP.

No dude, that’s not true at all. You don’t win any sidenoder with nec you can just go teamfights and you get huge only when you have a good support providing you with the things you don’t have (sustain,cc,stab)You are talking with your own experience and it’s ok but you should look for a way to improve and not address the other class as op. There’s a reason if at high rating you’ll never see a nec going 1v1 or sidenoding. Also elementalist is very good against nec and lot of people are telling you how to play against necs. Practice with those advice and stop whining about other classes

[AleCenta.2190]

@AliamRationem.5172You can keep going with excuses or try to learn the game. Watch some streams and you’ll see for yourself if you don’t trust my opinion :)

[AliamRationem.5172]

@AleCenta.2190 said:

@AliamRationem.5172You can keep going with excuses or try to learn the game. Watch some streams and you’ll see for yourself if you don’t trust my opinion :)

I'll try to learn the game, thanks! Maybe you can show me how it's done? I'll 1v1 anyone. Good practice!

[Arheundel.6451]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@AleCenta.2190 said:

@AliamRationem.5172You can keep going with excuses or try to learn the game. Watch some streams and you’ll see for yourself if you don’t trust my opinion :)

I'll try to learn the game, thanks! Maybe you can show me how it's done? I'll 1v1 anyone. Good practice!

You'll never reach the level of necro player......it took them years to master the art of F1-5-4 , this delicate combo takes an astonishing amount of practice.

[Mega.5791]

Don't let people provoce you, @AliamRationem.5172. I think you are playing with sword, right? Then it's a really tough matchup indeed. :smile: Reaper wins against sword weavers, but not against D/D (depends on the specific area of the fight though).

Still don't think reaper needs major nerfs. Maybe some adjustments to decrease either defense or offense depending on which trait you choose.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Megametzler.5729 said:Don't let people provoce you, @AliamRationem.5172. I think you are playing with sword, right? Then it's a really tough matchup indeed. :smile: Reaper wins against sword weavers, but not against D/D (depends on the specific area of the fight though).

Still don't think reaper needs major nerfs. Maybe some adjustments to decrease either defense or offense depending on which trait you choose.

Ahh okay. I thought I was just messing up because they seem clearly one of my toughest 1v1s.

And again, I am neither complaining about that nor proposing nerfs.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@AleCenta.2190 said:

@AliamRationem.5172You can keep going with excuses or try to learn the game. Watch some streams and you’ll see for yourself if you don’t trust my opinion :)

I'll try to learn the game, thanks! Maybe you can show me how it's done? I'll 1v1 anyone. Good practice!

That's the energy I like to see.Fight him, y'all. Send me a mail in game. I have a reaper I need to work on, so I'm up to helping you with the matchup. Feel free to blindside me in the arena if you see me.

@Affinity.7253 Necro/Reaper have an edge against Ele if they are not geared toward condi removal because chill interrupts their element swapping and they can corrupt/remove your stability. The matchup is slanted in their favor. This is the only matchup they have an advantage in, condi mesmer should beat them if you do not feed their Consume Conditions/Spectral walk.

I'm not a master ele/tempest but for what it's worth I suggest trying to make use of tornado when up to force reapers to either disengage or get cced, and making sure you share shocking aura with your friend to stop reapers from cleaving you. Slot the trait that gives you aura on overload. Reapers at most have one stack of stability unless they use one of two elites.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Affinity.7253 said:Oh and I'm not even going to mention lich form. We all know about that.

It's bad but overload earth to put reflects on you and your teammate. use Warhorn 4 in earth for initial reflects against lich, then overload earth for more uptime.

[Mega.5791]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:Don't let people provoce you, @AliamRationem.5172. I think you are playing with sword, right? Then it's a really tough matchup indeed. :smile: Reaper wins against sword weavers, but not against D/D (depends on the specific area of the fight though).

Still don't think reaper needs major nerfs. Maybe some adjustments to decrease either defense or offense depending on which trait you choose.

Ahh okay. I thought I was just messing up because they seem clearly one of my toughest 1v1s.

And again, I am neither complaining about that nor proposing nerfs.

Second part was to OP/general discussion. :wink:

[Tayga.3192]

How to win vs reaper+tempest duo

1) get tempest2) get holo3) get asura arena4) split them and pressure tempest, while you and your teammate ccs reaper when a peel is needed (shocking aura)5) constantly run around in circles, following tempest

Congratulations, you won.

[bravan.3876]

Reaper is used by good player and good player tend to win. Nade Holo is what Anet wants to see ppl come up with. Get rekt and l2live with it.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@bravan.3876 said:Reaper is used by good player and good player tend to win. Nade Holo is what Anet wants to see ppl come up with. Get rekt and l2live with it.

nade holo is the type of innovation we want to see from players-CMC 2020

[bravan.3876]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"bravan.3876" said:Reaper is used by good player and good player tend to win. Nade Holo is what Anet wants to see ppl come up with. Get rekt and l2live with it.

nade holo is the type of innovation we want to see from players-CMC 2020

Ok i failed the quote, i admit! :joy: I actually couldn't decide between laughing and crying at that point. Bunker Chrono was also such a great innovation, just like every other braindead playable broken meta build in the last years. It is just the usual "find the mistake in Anet balance"- move ppl are better at then in actually increasing their skill lvl.