NO Downstate should STAY permanently. - [Merged]

[Khenzy.9348]

Nothing more egregious, frustrating, enraging than fighing outnumbered, tooth and nails, giving it your all, clearly outplaying your opponent and finally managing to get someone down, only for that downed to get almost instantly ressed, again, and again and again. A simple and stupidly implemented mechanic just invalidated all your effort, that's what it feels like.We are outnumbered and already using our CC skills, stabilities and defensives to barely stay alive and perfectly time those bursts. I don't even try to stomp most of the time as 90% to 100% of my HP goes away and I get downed instead (or perma CCed of course), this became even worse after the damage reduction patch because damaging the downed body is worthless 9 and a half out of 10 times. It's like the game with its mechanics is actively fighing against you winning, it's incredibly frustrating. A feeling of complete impotence overwhelms you after someone you fought so hard to down is suddenly alive and well just because some people used something as simplistic as the interact keybind on the downed body and there was almost nothing you could do about it, and they will also have stability and other shit because this mechanic gets exponentially worse the more people you're fighting against.

It so heavily and blatantly favours those that outnumber you, even if you vastly outskill them, that completely neuters any fun many of us have with the game.

Downed state is GOOD in Structured PvP.Downed state is GOOD in PvE.Downed state is absolutely terrible in WvW.

Now that we don't have downed state I've been having the most fun ever.

Suggestion:The downed mechanic is ONLY activated for those that have the Outnumbered buff.

I want to read WHY you are in favour or against.Hint: Elemetalist's Vapour form is NOT a good reason in favour.

[Svarty.8019]

@Khenzy.9348 said:It so heavily and blatantly favours those that outnumber you,

So does everything else in WvW.

[Khenzy.9348]

@Svarty.8019 said:

@Khenzy.9348 said:It so heavily and blatantly favours those that outnumber you,

So does everything else in WvW.

Are you trying to imply a false equivalency? I don't know where you're coming from. Very few mechaincs come close to downed state when it comes to favouring outnumbered fights. It's absolutely worth mentioning and discussing about.

[Virdo.1540]

Downstate is ok.
Rally isnt. same when more than 2 ppl rezzing an downed.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

You wish for something that you'll regret and also you'll suffer from it.WvW is already on it's last legs with circus balance, but by removing downstate permanently you'll have increase in 1shot builds that abuse either stealth or mobility(much more than currently).In other words only few classes will truly benefit from it and others will be just a fodder for the latter.Another thing some classes/builds that barely are used will be also deleted by this change(staff power ele), beacuse the damage from sieges/enemies normally will down them a lot if they're unlucky with RNG.To even consider this 'change', A-net would need to do complete overhaul of combat traits/skills etc., which they won't do.You complain about fighting outnumbered and not being able to finish them, I'm gonna destroy your bubble, but you should lose outnumbered fights, doesn't matter how good you are...Just because some classes allow such cheese, doesn't mean you should take it for granted that it's fine...

[jpsssss.7530]

I bet you play a cancer one-shot/nuke build. There are some builds with little to no counterplay options (cough thief and ranger *cough) and they always come out of the woodwork on no downstate weeks. I feel like these week should ONLY be used to examine balancing. This is the week ANET should be watching WvW to balance the bullkitten. Blobbing is not the only way WvW happens and balancing solely around that has allowed thief to go untouched for far too long. Rapid fire should probable also be looked at, though dodges and blocks exist...

[Jilora.9524]

No, It shouldn't. I mean you use it favors bigger group but everything favors bigger group. Don't fight outnumbered or organize as that beats outnumbered. Removing downstate perm is terrible. It favors big guilds vs pugs. Small groups in discord vs pugs and cheese type play-styles. Like a teef can already jump into a group of 9 and evade evade evade port and mobility away. Sometimes he can get a down and no that is not skill and this week he's rewarded with a kill with 8 others standing there. It is a terrible no skill event.

[Sobx.1758]

@Svarty.8019 said:

@Khenzy.9348 said:It so heavily and blatantly favours those that outnumber you,

So does everything else in WvW.

So because outnumbering is already pushing you ahead, we should have more mechanics that gives them even bigger advantage? Nice backwards logic over there. :+1:

Absolutely walk me through that thought.

[ledernierrempart.6871]

@Jilora.9524 said:No, It shouldn't. I mean you use it favors bigger group but everything favors bigger group. Don't fight outnumbered or organize as that beats outnumbered. Removing downstate perm is terrible. It favors big guilds vs pugs. Small groups in discord vs pugs and cheese type play-styles. Like a teef can already jump into a group of 9 and evade evade evade port and mobility away. Sometimes he can get a down and no that is not skill and this week he's rewarded with a kill with 8 others standing there. It is a terrible no skill event.

you know, the dead can be rez back up with the helpers are not in combat state. also , no downed stae being permanent could also mean that special revive abilities would be used on dead people instead of downed ones. (tho this may cause another uproar. lets say you can be rez back only once by such ability per death.)

right now there is alot of boonball problems, damage nerf problem, and many other issues that favour bus play and larger groups.no downstate is a cheap but effective way to balance everything out by itself. becasue the unkillable will be killable again.then you ll only need to adjust some specific, ranger and thief skills (or whatever trylu op skills) instead of changing everything just to see how it goes.(and rework elem, especially the staff.)

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

Well, no. Every class out there has mechanics tied to the downed-state. Some Elite Specializations are designed to utilize the downed state in a special way. During the no-downed-state week, each of those is kicked into a trash-bin. We do not get a compensation for all the skills that stopped working.

Oh and btw. ANet is selling finishers. Good luck removing an income source in one of the two game-modes, finishers actually matter.

[Jilora.9524]

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Jilora.9524 said:No, It shouldn't. I mean you use it favors bigger group but everything favors bigger group. Don't fight outnumbered or organize as that beats outnumbered. Removing downstate perm is terrible. It favors big guilds vs pugs. Small groups in discord vs pugs and cheese type play-styles. Like a teef can already jump into a group of 9 and evade evade evade port and mobility away. Sometimes he can get a down and no that is not skill and this week he's rewarded with a kill with 8 others standing there. It is a terrible no skill event.

you know, the dead can be rez back up with the helpers are not in combat state. also , no downed stae being permanent could also mean that special revive abilities would be used on dead people instead of downed ones. (tho this may cause another uproar. lets say you can be rez back only once by such ability per death.)

right now there is alot of boonball problems, damage nerf problem, and many other issues that favour bus play and larger groups.no downstate is a cheap but effective way to balance everything out by itself. becasue the unkillable will be killable again.then you ll only need to adjust some specific, ranger and thief skills (or whatever trylu op skills) instead of changing everything just to see how it goes.(and rework elem, especially the staff.)

Yes, If you want to go anet will rework every class and change this to like most games with actual rez skills and single target spammable heals then sure. Just removing an aspect for 8 years the game was built on and classes were designed w ds in mind and go lol have fun single target bursters from stealth or pew pew from a wall you get ez no risk kills forever now I don't want. The thing is you 1st need to get over I downed him I won because downed is not dead in gw2. You didn't win until you finish so because some players like to always fight outnumbered then complain but I won if not for that other guy who rezzed him. You didn't win. You didn't kill him you downed him and that's half the battle.

[Blocki.4931]

It should stay, otherwise we wouldn't get any types of these events anymore.It also heavily discourages one shot cheese.

[meepeY.2867]

I despise No-Downstate week. I've been solo roaming for years and these events make me want to pull my hair out.

Sure, it makes 1vx easier and that's IMO the biggest upside as a roamer buuuuttttttt... This event makes most people join the local zerg and the only 'roamers' you tend see are groups of Thieves or Rangers trying to build as bursty as possible.

No-Downstate makes duelling impossible too, which sucks. I've met some really great (and not so) people through duels.

I'm aware that players like me are a small minority of WvW but it really does kill my enthusiasm to play :/

[Sobx.1758]

@"Blocki.4931" said:It should stay, otherwise we wouldn't get any types of these events anymore.It also heavily discourages one shot cheese.

But then we can get "downstate week", just think about that! :p

[God.2708]

@Khenzy.9348 said:I want to read WHY you are in favour or against.

Sure.

GW2 was designed from the start to have an active twitch style combat system. It is one of it's most unique features, and the fluidity of this combat as numbers on both sides of opposing forces increase remains a constant. In this fluid combat, Anet developed a combat flow based around the concept of downstate. You have an opening phase where both targets have all CDs available, a climax phase where a player gets an advantage in CDs and can down a player, and a conclusion phase where the enemy player is finished.

Anet made the game so people can 'die' near instantly. It's fun. It's nice to be able to just obliterate something. But it's important to acknowledge that this scales badly as numbers grow. When two groups of 20 people collide, someone falls over. It's inevitable. Not in a sense of 'learn to dodge' but rather any game made where it takes 20 attacks from one player to kill another is going to result in 20 people doing that attack means a guaranteed death. Now we don't want our phased combat to suffer from a growth in numbers. So we add downstate. Now if you are one of the unlucky ones who gets smashed, your team has an opportunity to recover you in a variety of interesting ways. The climax of the fight has shifted, but it is still there. With no downstate, there is no climax, there is no conclusion phase. Fights are literally just openers and then they are over. It's hollow.

I also feel like people who support these downstate events don't really look at where the game is going to go post event. The things they can do during the event are hallmarks of other players not bothering to adapt because it's just a week long thing. People will adapt to going down meaning being dead, and it will not be towards a healthier game play. It will be everyone who wants to blob running around in the tankiest, cancerous gear possible, and everyone else being in builds that can run away at a moments notice. That isn't dynamic game play, and it's not diverse game play. The event is fun because it's temporary and something new. It if you make it the standard it will cease to be that.

[Dawdler.8521]

@"Khenzy.9348" said:Downed state is GOOD in Structured PvP.Then you admit its good for a large part of WvW that is within similar specs of sPvP fights - basicly everything outside of zerging.Good for roaming, good for smallscale.

And since 90% of the "issues" with downed state in zerging is the 5 man rubbing 1 downed which heavily favor the side that have people to spare for ressing, we can easily deduce that downed state would be GOOD in WvW with 1:1 res (ie 1 player res cap).

See how easy it is to argue changes without removal?

[Sobx.1758]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"Khenzy.9348" said:Downed state is GOOD in Structured PvP.Then you admit its good for a large part of WvW that is within similar specs of sPvP fights - basicly everything outside of zerging.Good for roaming, good for smallscale.

No, he doesn't admit that, the rules (as well as the circumstances and size of the fights) in those two game modes are absolutely different. You're trying to take a nice shortcut here, but nah.

And since 90% of the "issues" with downed state in zerging is the 5 man rubbing 1 downed which heavily favor the side that have people to spare for ressing, we can easily deduce that downed state would be GOOD in WvW with 1:1 res (ie 1 player res cap).

What? How? Still better for outnumbering side. Now they just get picked up a bit slower.

[Mini Crinny.6190]

It is pretty fun, but having no downed state permanently, would most likely mean the same thing happening in PvP and PvE since Skills and traits will have to be reworked due to it Arcane on ele being good for only 1 trait now if you play the staff support tempest builds as 1 example, Im sure other classes are somewhat the same.

[ledernierrempart.6871]

@God.2708 said:I also feel like people who support these downstate events don't really look at where the game is going to go post event. The things they can do during the event are hallmarks of other players not bothering to adapt because it's just a week long thing. People will adapt to going down meaning being dead, and it will not be towards a healthier game play. It will be everyone who wants to blob running around in the tankiest, cancerous gear possible, and everyone else being in builds that can run away at a moments notice. That isn't dynamic game play, and it's not diverse game play. The event is fun because it's temporary and something new. It if you make it the standard it will cease to be that.

all the problem you listed here are true in WvW, even with downstate. at least now the larger group has more chance to loose against smaller groups.

[aspirine.6852]

I would settle with no combat rezzing. And that also means all the skills people use to insta rez people.Permanent no downstate is not fun, this week is enough to have some enjoyment from it.

[God.2708]

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@God.2708 said:I also feel like people who support these downstate events don't really look at where the game is going to go post event. The things they can do during the event are hallmarks of other players not bothering to adapt because it's just a week long thing. People will adapt to going down meaning being dead, and it will not be towards a healthier game play. It will be everyone who wants to blob running around in the tankiest, cancerous gear possible, and everyone else being in builds that can run away at a moments notice. That isn't dynamic game play, and it's not diverse game play. The event is fun because it's temporary and something new. It if you make it the standard it will cease to be that.

all the problem you listed here are true in WvW, even with downstate. at least now the larger group has more chance to loose against smaller groups.

Do they have more of a chance? Are you certain it will last as people adapt? The issue with larger groups is always slower adaptation. More people means more moving parts means more points of failure. I don't believe for a second that 1 month from now with no downstate being permanent that would still be the case.

Hell, 75% of the time the 'smaller' group saying they won isn't even actually smaller. Tried and true WvW, they're bigger than us and they think they're smaller than you.

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

@Khenzy.9348 said:Nothing more egregious, frustrating, enraging than fighing outnumbered...

Stop fighting outnumbered?

D:

[ASP.8093]

My experience with "no downstate" week is that a lot of zergs are playing skittish, groups of 30 are trying to stealth-and-portal bomb groups of 10, and a lot of people are running around on pew-pew rangers trying to luck into some free bags. It's different but I really can't say it's better.

Also, I feel that the correct emotional response to fighting 2v1 or 3v1 shouldn't be "I've been robbed of my hard-earned victory by that vicious demon, Game Mechanics!"

[hobotnicax.7918]

YES! Make it permanent. WvW is so much better without downedstate.

[Sobx.1758]

@"ASP.8093" said:My experience with "no downstate" week is that a lot of zergs are playing skittish, groups of 30 are trying to stealth-and-portal bomb groups of 10

If that works so well in no-downstate, then explain why it doesn't work with downstate. You mean the 10 people in downstate that got bombed still outplay the almost full health 30 standing on them? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight....