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NO Downstate should STAY permanently. - [Merged]


Khenzy.9348

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@Mokk.2397 said:

rally bot makes zerg vs zerg unbalanced. kill one, revive another one...

How do you figure unbalanced . Rally applies to both sides . Same as downstate or no downstate . Whether or not it stays or goes makes absolutely no difference to the final equation because all sides are effected . Down state is NOT an issue . Population imbalance is the real issue.

because while the enemy struggle to kill your group off, your mates get revived each time you kill one of theirs. thus only one side trully lose players while the other group stay at a stable number. (of course some dies without rally bot but you get the idea.)

outnumbered doesn't carea about the population. you could still be in the most populated server but still come across a group of 5 players agiant you and your friend.of course population imbalance is a major factor. and downstate give an even bigger advantage to the bigger group making unbalance server population even more unbalance.

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@Mokk.2397 said:

rally bot makes zerg vs zerg unbalanced. kill one, revive another one...

How do you figure unbalanced . Rally applies to both sides . Same as downstate or no downstate . Whether or not it stays or goes makes absolutely no difference to the final equation because all sides are effected . Down state is NOT an issue . Population imbalance is the real issue.

because while the enemy struggle to kill your group off, your mates get revived each time you kill one of theirs. thus only one side trully lose players while the other group stay at a stable number. (of course some dies without rally bot but you get the idea.)

outnumbered doesn't carea about the population. you could still be in the most populated server but still come across a group of 5 players agiant you and your friend.of course population imbalance is a major factor. and downstate give an even bigger advantage to the bigger group making unbalance server population even more unbalance.

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@phreeak.1023 said:Permanent no downstate.. Oh lord, i see literally dozen of one shot warriors who snipe the people out of a zerg with 18k crits.

No thanks. Very skillful.

well no. some tried warrior with rifle but it wasn't as effective as you would imagine. dragon hunter on the other hand...

@"Hadi.6025" said:If it's one thing that "No Downstate Week" showed me is that it really show's you who needs downstate to play the game mode; who are skilled and who abuses broken builds that get over looked for years. This is why i urge Arena Net to implement the same rules from PVP to WvW game mode; the fact that literally all power damage nerfed should show you how frustrating it is to end fights (I.E lack of cleave damage on downed players) when players go down, not to mention how overpowered Downstate skills are especially for necro being able to literally zap all your health in seconds if they're running a power build. Their traits like Spinal shivers still activates even after the player is already "Defeated" So not only do you have to fight through basically a second health bar of that same player (Not to forget it changes depending on the build so some down players have 20-30k health) you have to fight off all their damage that you can't really interrupt, it gives them too much advantage when they should have already lost. IF Anet implemented the same rules such as no invulnerability after going down it would make the fights go by much more smoothly, since cleave damage is lacking due to power coefficients nerfed.

What i would suggest to completely balance Downstate is to make EVERYONES health the same when they go down. keep the same skills fine but some of the downstate skills need their power coefficients reduced . There's no reason i should be getting hit AS hard if not HARDER by a player that is on the ground defeated, that virtually makes no sense. These same rules should apply for underwater combat as well. They tried to nerf underwater pets for Ranger but they still hit entirely too hard and can still power ress players within seconds of using the skill. It shouldn't be this frustrating and the fights need to go by faster instead of dragging on for so long due to over looked balance changes.

=> no rally bot.=> heavily nerf downed state power/condi damage auto attack for all class. make it useless .=> only one can revive a downed player. make specific builds to revive faster shine. if not being hit, one player reviving the odwned + the downed healing himslef is fast enough.=>nerf downed state % of hp depending on vitaity stat. (or give the same health for each class depending on the class. like all necro would share the same downed hp but it would be higher than elem shared hp for example.)

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@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@phreeak.1023 said:Permanent no downstate.. Oh lord, i see literally dozen of one shot warriors who snipe the people out of a zerg with 18k crits.

No thanks. Very skillful.

well no. some tried warrior with rifle but it wasn't as effective as you would imagine. dragon hunter on the other hand...

@"Hadi.6025" said:If it's one thing that "No Downstate Week" showed me is that it really show's you who needs downstate to play the game mode; who are skilled and who abuses broken builds that get over looked for years. This is why i urge Arena Net to implement the same rules from PVP to WvW game mode; the fact that literally all power damage nerfed should show you how frustrating it is to end fights (I.E lack of cleave damage on downed players) when players go down, not to mention how overpowered Downstate skills are especially for necro being able to literally zap all your health in seconds if they're running a power build. Their traits like Spinal shivers still activates even after the player is already "Defeated" So not only do you have to fight through basically a second health bar of that same player (Not to forget it changes depending on the build so some down players have 20-30k health) you have to fight off all their damage that you can't really interrupt, it gives them too much advantage when they should have already lost. IF Anet implemented the same rules such as no invulnerability after going down it would make the fights go by much more smoothly, since cleave damage is lacking due to power coefficients nerfed.

What i would suggest to completely balance Downstate is to make
EVERYONES
health the same when they go down. keep the same skills fine but some of the downstate skills need their power coefficients reduced . There's no reason i should be getting hit AS hard if not HARDER by a player that is on the ground defeated, that virtually makes no sense. These same rules should apply for underwater combat as well. They tried to nerf underwater pets for Ranger but they still hit entirely too hard and can still power ress players within seconds of using the skill. It shouldn't be this frustrating and the fights need to go by faster instead of dragging on for so long due to over looked balance changes.

=> no rally bot.=> heavily nerf downed state power/condi damage auto attack for all class. make it useless .=> only one can revive a downed player. make specific builds to revive faster shine. if not being hit, one player reviving the odwned + the downed healing himslef is fast enough.=>nerf downed state % of hp depending on vitaity stat. (or give the same health for each class depending on the class. like all necro would share the same downed hp but it would be higher than elem shared hp for example.)

Where does the OP say they want permanent downstate? Why argue over something not mentioned?

D:

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Chill of Death (the trait you called Spinal Shivers) does not deal any significant damage in the competitive modes. It just strips boons and applies chill.

The necro autoattack in downstate has 900 range. Only melee warriors (that can stunlock the necro 247 anyway) have to be at autoattack range to finish the downed necro.

If you want to be taken serious you should learn the basics. The way you describle your experiences just shows that you don't even know what killed you and how it works.

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@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

outnumbered doesn't carea about the population. you could still be in the most populated server but still come across a group of 5 players agiant you and your friend.of course population imbalance is a major factor. and downstate give an even bigger advantage to the bigger group making unbalance server population even more unbalance.

And the same is on the other side . It MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. The opportunities are the same for both sides . Now if you want to go run around with a small group and complain every time you get wrecked but a bigger group , that's not an issue with rally , downstate or outnumber. The problem is you don't know how to pick your fights .

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@Mokk.2397 said:

outnumbered doesn't carea about the population. you could still be in the most populated server but still come across a group of 5 players agiant you and your friend.of course population imbalance is a major factor. and downstate give an even bigger advantage to the bigger group making unbalance server population even more unbalance.

And the same is on the other side . It MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. The opportunities are the same for both sides . Now if you want to go run around with a small group and complain every time you get wrecked but a bigger group , that's not an issue with rally , downstate or outnumber. The problem is you don't know how to pick your fights .

rally is an issue even for balanced bus fights. the first bus that kills take the advantage since the ressources the other bus spent in downing some target gets negated.it is the snowball effect. never have i seen a bus getting wrecked and then turing the tide with less players. it is less apparent now because you can rally bot only one player per kill and not 5 like before. but it is still a minor advantage one of the 2 bus will get.also it is not like you can always escape from a larger group everytime you encounter one. you are often forced to fight or lose more territory.

at least with no downstate you can try a suicide move and reduce considerably the enemy bus with whats left of your group because you know that each kill will count instead of having them getting revived instantly because your mates are dying.also, kills give points, downed don't. a server with a smaller population will be able to get more points while it does not matter for the bigger one since they are big enough to kill downed fast in the sea of AOEs.

the thing is WvW will never have perfectly balanced fight. groups are never the same size or when they are there is a high chance of a +1.wdowned state always favoured the bigger group. even in a 1v2 scenario the solo player will have to deal with another health bar + the downed dps + his friend hitting you or reviving the downed.

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@Ubi.4136 said:

@"Hannelore.8153" said:There's already like a half dozen threads on this subject. Including all these arguments being shot down, repeatedly.

The consensus I see the most is that no downstate actually carries bad builds because it favors quickly defeating players and not having to come up with any kind of strategy for dealing with them once they're downed. It made going "all in" alot less risky because there's less chance of failure since you need to do significantly less damage and use less tactics overall.

Downstate is, among other things, part of a player's effective health and affects cooldown management.

And yet, that isn't how it played out. The 30 constantly pushing 5-10 during normal playtimes, were clearly being carried by pure numbers. Because, during no downstate, they didn't push as deep, and when they did, died. We were able to, time and time again, slowly kill off the larger groups, because they didn't have the insta-res that they normally have. The skilled players didn't die as often, and the "we only have numbers" crowd, died, a lot. Even TC, the constantly outnumbered carebear server we are, played at, or above, 1.0 kdr all week. Where the largest server in our matchup, who normally has a 1.5 kdr or higher, stayed right at 1.0 also.

Agree, not saying completely remove but seeing what Ubi was, tells me it could use some adjustment. The ability to just deal with the numbers and for lower numbers to be able to line larger ones went a long way in balancing numbers and in what I saw created more fights that were also less laggy. Which was an extra benefit.

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@Ubi.4136 said:

@"Hannelore.8153" said:There's already like a half dozen threads on this subject. Including all these arguments being shot down, repeatedly.

The consensus I see the most is that no downstate actually carries bad builds because it favors quickly defeating players and not having to come up with any kind of strategy for dealing with them once they're downed. It made going "all in" alot less risky because there's less chance of failure since you need to do significantly less damage and use less tactics overall.

Downstate is, among other things, part of a player's effective health and affects cooldown management.

And yet, that isn't how it played out. The 30 constantly pushing 5-10 during normal playtimes, were clearly being carried by pure numbers. Because, during no downstate, they didn't push as deep, and when they did, died. We were able to, time and time again, slowly kill off the larger groups, because they didn't have the insta-res that they normally have. The skilled players didn't die as often, and the "we only have numbers" crowd, died, a lot. Even TC, the constantly outnumbered carebear server we are, played at, or above, 1.0 kdr all week. Where the largest server in our matchup, who normally has a 1.5 kdr or higher, stayed right at 1.0 also.

Ya if you try and go oh 30 pugs pushed into our 10 man guild and some died sure. But a 30 man guild pushing into a 10 man guild wouldn't be the same results. You are confusing skill with being an organized guild group in discord all specced to support each other. Organization with or w/o ds will beat a bunch of pugs.

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@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

Where does the OP say they want permanent downstate? Why argue over something not mentioned?

D:

why trying to argue over something you didn't even understood and wasn't for you in the first place?

OP made some suggestion to balance downstate. i added mines.

True. I should have quoted just that one guy.

D:

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@"Hannelore.8153" said:There's already like a half dozen threads on this subject. Including all these arguments being shot down, repeatedly.

The consensus I see the most is that no downstate actually carries bad builds because it favors quickly defeating players and not having to come up with any kind of strategy for dealing with them once they're downed. It made going "all in" alot less risky because there's less chance of failure since you need to do significantly less damage and use less tactics overall.

Downstate is, among other things, part of a player's effective health and affects cooldown management.

"No downstate" does not carry bad builds. Not being able to deal with downed players isn't so much a matter of strategy or build as options are very limited anyway and the best stategy to take advantage of the downed mechanic is simply to bring more players than your opponent. As a result it just carries bad players who rely on numbers to overwhelm their opponents.Dealing with a downed player should never require more effort than dealing with a player who is alive, after all it is the latter who has still the vast majority of his toolkit at his disposal. But using this extensive toolkit in an efficient way actually requires stuff like "strategy" and "cooldown management" or simply "skill". And once a player goes down those requirements dwindle. A downed player can just happily spam his very limited amount of buttons to pressure whoever is alive while not having to worry about anything else thanks to a huge healthpool and insane healing as long someone else pressed "F". The amount of potential survivabilty a downed player has compared to an alive player is ridiculous and with zero requirements regarding skill, strategy or cooldown management from the downed player's side.

I still don't think downstate should be removed completely (and it is very unlikely to happen anyway) as the game is designed with this mechanic in mind, but it needs some serious nerfs - regarding both "strength" of a downed player as well as efficiency of revival.

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I'll gladly defend downed state as a fun and interesting mechanic, but I think right now there's a bunch of warts that need to be looked at.

  • Your downed health pool is pretty big. "Cleaving" downs with pure damage takes a while.
  • The automatic condition clear and "Invincible!" frames basically absorb the tail end of whatever burst brought you down.
  • Compared to sustained damage output, downed heal speed is strong enough that "just rub as fast as you can even while people are hitting you" can be a viable tactic for tankier builds.
  • If a player keeps getting picked up, you have to down them like four times in the course of ~2 minutes to kill them. That's kind of a lot.

I think this tends to produce an excess of dumb down-state interactions (a-tug-of-war over the red bar where the side trying to finalize the kill must typically use up more resources than the side trying to prevent it; protracted rally wars; people ping-ponging in and out of down state with relative impunity) at the expense of the cool ones (clutch stomps or good use of split-second mechanics to counter them; baiting enemies using their downs or pushing area denial in order to revive your downs).

I do think this can be tweaked by fixing a few simple variables for WvW/SPvP. It's safe to say that "down state" has already diverged considerably, now that most of the PvE player base has Agony Signet. Time to lean into that and adjust coefficients and mechanics to emphasize good management of downs over stacking and attrition.

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@Moira Shalaar.5620 said:

@"Jeran.6850" said:

Doesnt change that LB ranger has QUITE some unfair advantage against everyone else, if not dedicated builded for counterplay.

This is an old and worn out argument, all too often seemingly perpetuated by those who play squad oriented classes, who have other advantages that are denied Rangers but I don't expect to change anybody's opinion here, especially since we are drifting pretty far afield from the OP's topic. Off the top of my head I would say that Spellbreakers are a kitten to fight, and have been thoroughly demolished by some power heralds, and I absolutely hate mirages, completely aside from Deadeyes. I personally doubt that they are all building their comps just to counter play me or my fellow rangers.

I wish you well and hope that your time in WvW is fruitful rather than frustrating. If you find me on the field of battle, I'm sure I will contribute a bag or 2 to your in game wealth accumulation.

Hello there, im late with my reply. That is, because i set myself to a pause-mode - i feel, i get much to angry lately in this forum, for pretty childish to not any reasons at all(its a computer-game, still).So, why do i want to reply now? Because, in what i quoted, there is an old and worn argument included , no, not even an argument - its an assumption -that someone thinking rangers do have a kind of advantage against everyone excluding thief (and, to a lesser degree, mesmer) MUST be someone playing in squads exclusivly.

Believe me, or not: i rarely do join squads these days, i actually stopped to do so 2 month after PoF. Have i been a large scale player before PoF? Yes.But i also did join my small guild(s) runs every evening, and while doing so, i spent a lot of time playing my own Soulbeast then, and Druid recently.

I will try to be polite here, i really do. But bringing up large scale "demands" for ranger is way much more behind the topic, then mentioning that, in a WvW without downstate, its good that there is counterplay, at least if people are aware of their abilities, and willing to change your class build accordingly, as otherwise, indeed, the longbow range alone (not even mentioning what else more they have on the table), would bring to much safety, to much opportunity, to much "easy" wins for ranger.

I really think, i wasnt away from the topic, and i wasnt...well... (google have to help me out) condescending.

Fun fact: i always was , and still am, in defence of our rangers when doing guild runs, against the opinion of our guild leader. I always do so, even as an ele main. Why?Because it is a strong class, and in some way, maybe even to strong.But not in large scale, with a longbow, yes.

Thank you for your kind wishes, i hope its going well for you to.

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@Jilora.9524 said:

@Ubi.4136 said:

@"Hannelore.8153" said:There's already like a half dozen threads on this subject. Including all these arguments being shot down, repeatedly.

The consensus I see the most is that no downstate actually carries bad builds because it favors quickly defeating players and not having to come up with any kind of strategy for dealing with them once they're downed. It made going "all in" alot less risky because there's less chance of failure since you need to do significantly less damage and use less tactics overall.

Downstate is, among other things, part of a player's effective health and affects cooldown management.

And yet, that isn't how it played out. The 30 constantly pushing 5-10 during normal playtimes, were clearly being carried by pure numbers. Because, during no downstate, they didn't push as deep, and when they did, died. We were able to, time and time again, slowly kill off the larger groups, because they didn't have the insta-res that they normally have. The skilled players didn't die as often, and the "we only have numbers" crowd, died, a lot. Even TC, the constantly outnumbered carebear server we are, played at, or above, 1.0 kdr all week. Where the largest server in our matchup, who normally has a 1.5 kdr or higher, stayed right at 1.0 also.

Ya if you try and go oh 30 pugs pushed into our 10 man guild and some died sure. But a 30 man guild pushing into a 10 man guild wouldn't be the same results. You are confusing skill with being an organized guild group in discord all specced to support each other. Organization with or w/o ds will beat a bunch of pugs.

No I'm saying 30 semi-organized were dying pushing on 10-15 TC militia, no comm, no tag, no group. They are used to running in, getting someone low, escaping, and if they get downed, the other 29 can insta-res. The next one pushes in does the same. Yet, with no downstate, they pushed in and died. We laughed. Sure, our side died some too, but, TC normally has a really, really low kdr and the server pushing us normally has a pretty high one, yet, with no downstate, it was almost a 1.0/1.0 despite us being outnumbered like always.

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@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

outnumbered doesn't carea about the population. you could still be in the most populated server but still come across a group of 5 players agiant you and your friend.of course population imbalance is a major factor. and downstate give an even bigger advantage to the bigger group making unbalance server population even more unbalance.

And the same is on the other side . It MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. The opportunities are the same for both sides . Now if you want to go run around with a small group and complain every time you get wrecked but a bigger group , that's not an issue with rally , downstate or outnumber. The problem is you don't know how to pick your fights .

rally is an issue even for balanced bus fights. the first bus that kills take the advantage since the ressources the other bus spent in downing some target gets negated.it is the snowball effect. never have i seen a bus getting wrecked and then turing the tide with less players. it is less apparent now because you can rally bot only one player per kill and not 5 like before. but it is still a minor advantage one of the 2 bus will get.also it is not like you can always escape from a larger group everytime you encounter one. you are often forced to fight or lose more territory.

at least with no downstate you can try a suicide move and reduce considerably the enemy bus with whats left of your group because you know that each kill will count instead of having them getting revived instantly because your mates are dying.also, kills give points, downed don't. a server with a smaller population will be able to get more points while it does not matter for the bigger one since they are big enough to kill downed fast in the sea of AOEs.

the thing is WvW will never have perfectly balanced fight. groups are never the same size or when they are there is a high chance of a +1.wdowned state always favoured the bigger group. even in a 1v2 scenario the solo player will have to deal with another health bar + the downed dps + his friend hitting you or reviving the downed.

Its amazing how you deny the reality of the recent event, which is that at any time the opposing group is bigger, it makes the enemy not even try. Are there some people that does? Are there some guild that (with the help of steath abuse) manage to win outnumbered? Yes, could have happended. Somewhere. Overall, what i see is that any strategy is completely dumbstered in favor of numbers, roaming was even more "dead", class diversity was even more restricted, hiding behind "accs" was more common than even before.

The wish for removing the downstate by a certain type of playerbase (which is still a minority by the way), will completely backfire, IF the downstate will be removed...i really wonder how these people can not already see it?

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@"Justine.6351" said:Yeah standardizing health and perhaps downed state skills wouldn't be a bad idea. There should also be a tangible reward for stomping too like recharging skills to some degree.

I think I'd want to keep some semblance of "class identity" in downed state, tbh. But the inconsistent effectiveness should probably be addressed somehow. Enforcing consistent character stats once downed (kinda like how everyone has the same hp/armor/damage when mounted) might be a good idea, too -- it would get us away from stuff like "this condi build does a lot of damage when downed / this condi build does almost no damage when downed" or the tedium of trying to cleave down enemies with 3.5k armor.

Your idea for some small reward for finishing enemies is also a good one, imo.

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@ledernierrempart.6871 said:rally is an issue even for balanced bus fights. the first bus that kills take the advantage since the ressources the other bus spent in downing some target gets negated.it is the snowball effect. never have i seen a bus getting wrecked and then turing the tide with less players. it is less apparent now because you can rally bot only one player per kill and not 5 like before. but it is still a minor advantage one of the 2 bus will get.also it is not like you can always escape from a larger group everytime you encounter one. you are often forced to fight or lose more territory.

at least with no downstate you can try a suicide move and reduce considerably the enemy bus with whats left of your group because you know that each kill will count instead of having them getting revived instantly because your mates are dying.also, kills give points, downed don't. a server with a smaller population will be able to get more points while it does not matter for the bigger one since they are big enough to kill downed fast in the sea of AOEs.

the thing is WvW will never have perfectly balanced fight. groups are never the same size or when they are there is a high chance of a +1.wdowned state always favoured the bigger group. even in a 1v2 scenario the solo player will have to deal with another health bar + the downed dps + his friend hitting you or reviving the downed.

AGAIN. If your going to run into a battle where your outnumbered 2 to 1 it makes no difference if theirs a down state or not . PICK YOUR BATTLES!!!If are roaming and encounter 2 or more opponents of equal skill as you , it would not matter if there is a downstate or not. Now assuming you can take down all the opponents of equal skill when there is a no down state then we need to look at why your class and skills are over performing and not looking to change the the aspects of the game to serve a minority.

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Many people who argue for No downstate always look at it as a one sided issue. Whether there is a down state or not makes no difference because it applies to everybody in involved in the battle .I do agree that the down state skills are NOT balanced from class to class. No down state skill should allow any form of mobility . No downstate skill should be more powerful or easier to implement than the equivalent skill of any other class . During combat , resurrecting a downed player should be limited to one player healer only . No stomp should be remote or stealth-ed. Down sate and stomps are unique to this game but as it is now theirs no continuity for downstate or stomps from one class to another and this is what makes it annoying .

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i sadly had only 2 days to play that due to holiday, but outside of the silly thief-ranger spam this was pretty much okay, way less problematic than i thought. just these silly condi rev-thief and all theif-ranger-mesmer variants would need hurting dps nerfs, if Anet would want to include this no-downstate thing finally.

what i really liked, was that the game becomes more fast paced and less forgiving.

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I want to ad something here to my previous comment. Everyone, that is at least a reader of this subforum, and even moreso, a reader of the PvP subforum, do know, that there is a lot of "dislike" to bunker builds, or stalemate build...you could even call them "troll" builds in some cases. And i do agree.

On the other side, i dont understand why rev, thief, holo/scrapper, ranger, warrior and the so called "destroyed" mesmers all can build themselfs as a glass/actually non glass build going into a at least 1v2, sometimes 1v4, or even 1v5...then moaning and crying, and want it to be removed, what for some classes, is their only choice to not immedietly die- a bunker, maybe even a minstrel one.

Its so irritating. What are your expectations, if the downstate will be removed? Everyone will play the game as before, ALLOWING your stealth abusing 10 peoples guild group to destroy the backlines of a 30, 40, 50 people opposing group? What is in your mind by asking this? Dont you think, squad players does already figured out how to build their groups if the downstate will be removed? Its only the roamers/guild group players, that have "a plan", about the changes that will then have to come, but NOT the already stronger group, even if they are only "stronger" by their numbers?

People asking for the removal of the downstate LOVE to point a finger at the february damage nerf to make it somehow fit to their agenda, while asking to remove minstrels and trailblazers, even dire, and with a good chance even aphotecary... (because why not next asking for that, condi druid takes good use of it...), and, after that is done, maybe soldiers (and thats a joke that is not to far to become a reallity) but never EVER would ask Arenanet to make it impossible for thief, mesmer, ranger, engineer (well Holo most likely), and warrior, to take the opposite of the coin removed: berserker. As if that stat set is NOT as much a problem with some certain classes, now, and moreso without a downstate.

Personal note: i dont run any minstrel build. I dont run any trailblaizer build.

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