NO Downstate should STAY permanently. - [Merged]

[Dawdler.8521]

@"Doug.4930" said:That's what this debate is about.Should the chess novice be given 5 additional queens so that they can compete with the chess grand master?You say Yes, I say No.Now that is a hilarious comparison, since chess allow for promoting pawns to queens - something more easily done the more pieces you have left and obviously something that can end up steamrolling the opponent. Kind of like rallying, yes?

But otherwise, this is why you have sPvP. If you say yes, thats what you want. Structured skill levels, no novices meeting "grand masters". Which is perfectly fine. GW2 have sPvP. But thats not WvW.

[Doug.4930]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"Doug.4930" said:That's what this debate is about.Should the chess novice be given 5 additional queens so that they can compete with the chess grand master?You say Yes, I say No.Now

that

is a hilarious comparison, since chess allow for promoting pawns to queens - something more easily done the more pieces you have left and obviously something that can end up steamrolling the opponent. Kind of like rallying, yes?

Not quite, because unfortunately players don't earn downstate through clever play or strategy, quite the opposite in fact.I'd say a rallying comparison would be more akin to a mechanic in which taken pieces return to the board.

But otherwise, this is why you have sPvP. If you say yes, thats what you want. Structured skill levels, no novices meeting "grand masters". Which is perfectly fine. GW2 have sPvP. But thats not WvW.

sPvP can't be compared to WvW in anyway. Its a completely different game mode with completely different mechanics and objectives. You could tell me to go and play counter strike if I hate downstate so much and it would have similar relevance.

Just because WvW is harder to balance doesn't mean that we shouldn't try. For instance I know we agree that pocket healer minstrels are broken, would it not also be accurate for me to play devils advocate and say players who are fighting pocket healer comps should just "skill up"?

[Dawdler.8521]

@Doug.4930 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Doug.4930 said:That's what this debate is about.Should the chess novice be given 5 additional queens so that they can compete with the chess grand master?You say Yes, I say No.Now

that

is a hilarious comparison, since chess allow for promoting pawns to queens - something more easily done the more pieces you have left and obviously something that can end up steamrolling the opponent. Kind of like rallying, yes?

Not quite, because unfortunately players don't earn downstate through clever play or strategy, quite the opposite in fact.I'd say a rallying comparison would be more akin to a mechanic in which taken pieces return to the board.You mean like getting a queen back when you already lost yours? Or even getting 8 more queens max if you didnt already loose all your

noobs

pawns in the balls deep push? Hmmmmmmmmmm....

You're starting to enligten me to the fact WvW is more like chess than I imagined.

@Doug.4930 said:Just because WvW is harder to balance doesn't mean that we shouldn't try. For instance I know we agree that pocket healer minstrels are broken, would it not also be >accurate for me to play devils advocate and say players who are fighting pocket healer comps should just "skill up"?Very accurate. We have to deal with the pocket healers on a daily basis.

So, should we try to balance minstrels?Should we try to balance firebrands?

NAH LETS JUST DELETE IT FROM THE GAME.

... Right?

[Doug.4930]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Doug.4930 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Doug.4930 said:That's what this debate is about.Should the chess novice be given 5 additional queens so that they can compete with the chess grand master?You say Yes, I say No.Now

that

is a hilarious comparison, since chess allow for promoting pawns to queens - something more easily done the more pieces you have left and obviously something that can end up steamrolling the opponent. Kind of like rallying, yes?

Not quite, because unfortunately players don't earn downstate through clever play or strategy, quite the opposite in fact.I'd say a rallying comparison would be more akin to a mechanic in which taken pieces return to the board.You mean like getting a queen back when you already lost yours? Or even getting 8 more queens max if you didnt already loose all your

noobs

pawns in the balls deep push? Hmmmmmmmmmm....

You're starting to enligten me to the fact WvW is more like chess than I imagined.

Nice strawman. Its almost like my original analogy was a simple example in which to demonstrate my opinion that new players shouldn't be given extra tools to defeat experienced players. Whilst simultaneously demonstrating your opinion to the contrary, and was not intended to be taken literally and meticulously analysed. But grasp at whatever straws you can reach I guess.

@Doug.4930 said:Just because WvW is harder to balance doesn't mean that we shouldn't try. For instance I know we agree that pocket healer minstrels are broken, would it not also be >accurate for me to play devils advocate and say players who are fighting pocket healer comps should just "skill up"?Very accurate. We have to deal with the pocket healers on a daily basis.

So, should we try to balance minstrels?Should we try to balance firebrands?

NAH LETS JUST DELETE IT FROM THE GAME

.

... Right?

Actually truthfully, If I could delete the minstrel stat from the game I 100% would.

EDIT: But then again If I could delete HoT and PoF expansions from WvW I'd do that too, so maybe I'm just nuts.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Doug.4930 said:Actually truthfully, If I could delete the minstrel stat from the game I 100% would.

EDIT: But then again If I could delete HoT and PoF expansions from WvW I'd do that too, so maybe I'm just nuts.Well, it is a small minority that shouldnt be listened to, that's the point.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Doug.4930 said:Actually truthfully, If I could delete the minstrel stat from the game I 100% would.

EDIT: But then again If I could delete HoT and PoF expansions from WvW I'd do that too, so maybe I'm just nuts.Well, it

is

a small minority that shouldnt be listened to, that's the point.

If you think minstrel was a good addition to the game, well I already don't take anything you say seriously so I guess nothing changes from that point of view.

Edit: also LMAO at comparing downed state to pawn promotion. Pawn promotion takes skill and planning, downed state takes....letting your HP get to 0 while everyone around you presses F? Good analogy the greatest. It's like making pawn promotion the result of a check lmfao.

[Shroud.2307]

Anyone who is asking for it to be permanently removed, I just want to ask if when you lose a fight where you're outnumbering someone, do you respect that player for their victory? In my experience, the losers usually get mad about it instead.

So just keep in mind that if it were to be permanently removed it would also mean you'd run the risk of looking like a fool during the times you're doing the outnumbering because you won't be able to be saved by your friends. Something I know for certain some of the players in this thread often do.

No more falling back to a safe distance to go down to that Condition you couldn't clear so your buddy can pick you up. No more tactical downs when one of your targets is just about to die so you can rally. No more getting +1'd for help after you get blasted from 1500 range by a keyboard turning Soulbeast. No more Stealthing yourself or your friends when they're low health so you can rally under cover. A lot of things some of these people would hate to lose.

[Dawdler.8521]

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Doug.4930 said:Actually truthfully, If I could delete the minstrel stat from the game I 100% would.

EDIT: But then again If I could delete HoT and PoF expansions from WvW I'd do that too, so maybe I'm just nuts.Well, it

is

a small minority that shouldnt be listened to, that's the point.

If you think minstrel was a good addition to the game, well I already don't take anything you say seriously so I guess nothing changes from that point of view.

Edit: also LMAO at comparing downed state to pawn promotion. Pawn promotion takes skill and planning, downed state takes....letting your HP get to 0 while everyone around you presses F? Good analogy the greatest. It's like making pawn promotion the result of a check lmfao.But what does it matter if I think it was a bad addition to the game? What am I supposed to do, go on long rants on the forum to outright delete it even when the majority wants to keep it and pretend my opinion is the only correct opinion?

Also I compared pawn promotion to rallying, not downed state. Because it gives side that end up outnumbering a distinct advantage - one that shouldnt even be in chess but for some reason is still there and novices and pros manage just fine to still play chess. But I suppose people that just want everything deleted wont even see the subtle differences.

[Antioche.7034]

@ASP.8093 said:

@"Tayga.3192" said:Oh no downstate? Let me get my oneshot permastealth deadeye, go in, kill 1 person and run away.No downstate? Let me get my 1800-1900 range longbow ranger.No downstate? Let me get my oneshot mantra mesmer.

Such skilled builds.

In fairness, full-Minstrels Firebrands who pop 5-4-3 on top of a down and then rub them aren't really "skilled builds" either.

Neither are the condi bunkers or other attrition-monkeys.

Nor the Dragonhunters who spam out all their traps in order to create a single down out of position and then finish them with residual damage.

It's quite possible there are no "skilled builds" in this game at all, with or without the down state.

Yes, you're right, however this 5-4-3 tome FB isn't oneshotting anyone with it. He isn't spending his whole time trolling people with a cheesy build. Imagine how tiring it would be to deal with these builds all the time.