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NO Downstate should STAY permanently. - [Merged]


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@Plautze.6290 said:As a player who actually loses as many fights as he wins in WvW, I would prefer Downed State to stay removed.Imho, there is nothing less epic than lying in the dirt and tossing scrap at your opponent. Maybe it's just my Dark Souls mindset, but if I mess up, it's fine for me to start over.

Perhaps, someone can start a poll on this? I'd be quite interested in the results.

The result will be that the majority of glass canon tryhards want downstate to stay, because they rely on being rezzed all the time

Downstate supports bad players and outnumbering !

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@"Plautze.6290" said:Perhaps, someone can start a poll on this? I'd be quite interested in the results.A poll is only interesting on friday night/saturday morning, not now.

But it wouldnt surprise me if someone sees your post and created a poll today with"I dont want downstate because I'm a good player and skilled with playing the game and combine the best worlds of PPT and fights""I want downstate because I'm a terrible player that can only do PPT with superior numbers"And the poll is public because of course it is.

Alternativly a poll with 3 options where option 1 is remove downstate, option 2 is change it and option 3 is keep it, then the delete downed state crowd will claim victory and that a majority want to delete it when option 1 and option 2 gets 70%+ of the votes despite removing downstate only accounting for a minority of that.

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@Tom.5914 said:

@Plautze.6290 said:As a player who actually loses as many fights as he wins in WvW, I would prefer Downed State to stay removed.Imho, there is nothing less epic than lying in the dirt and tossing scrap at your opponent. Maybe it's just my Dark Souls mindset, but if I mess up, it's fine for me to start over.

Perhaps, someone can start a poll on this? I'd be quite interested in the results.

The result will be that the majority of glass canon tryhards want downstate to stay, because they rely on being rezzed all the time

I'm a glass canon tryhard myself who more often than not benefits from Rally and Rez.However, I tend to challenge myself and sometimes even feel the urge to... git gud.Ofc I can only speak for myself, so everybody is invited to disagree :wink:

@Tom.5914 said:Downstate supports bad players and outnumbering !

Agreed. Furthermore, it removes any incentive to actually improve. Why should they? Mates will keep on rezzing them / kill their target so they can rally.As it is, they can screw up countless times as there are people to save their behinds. As you pointed out, the bigger crowd will mostly be victorious, almost regardless of skill involved. I wonder if that was originally intended?

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:Agreed, downed state has no place in WvW. It's great and adds tons of depth to SPvP and PvE but in WvW all it does is benefit lesser skilled players zerging and outnumbering.I remain somewhat confused how people keep claiming it can be "great and add tons of depth to sPvP" when that is identical to a large part of WvW, ie roaming/smallscale.

Is zerging the definition of WvW now?

I guess it is. No downed state week reveals the true colors.

SPvP is 5vs5. WvW is ??? vs ???

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@Khenzy.9348 said:

@Khenzy.9348 said:It so heavily and blatantly favours those that outnumber you,

So does everything else in WvW.

Are you trying to imply a false equivalency? I don't know where you're coming from. Very few mechaincs come close to downed state when it comes to favouring outnumbered fights. It's absolutely worth mentioning and discussing about.

No. I'm saying that most mechanics in WvW promote SNOWBALLING. The implication being "why change this thing specifically, when there are lots of other things to change, too, most of which would be less controversial?"

Example: The more towers/keeps you own on a map, the more dragon banners your team can carry, the more powerful the team that was capable of capturing and holding all those objectives becomes. = SNOWBALLING.

(I don't know why I capitalise SNOWBALLING, it's just something I do).

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@Hannelore.8153 said:Why are you all so obsessed with these things? Why don't you like fighting?

The secret is they don't like fighting. They only like winning.

And no downstate week allows winning with the most kitten one shot builds by sniping into zerg tails. This week is gankers dream.

No downstate week should only be permanent if you mean to kill WvW as thoroughly as they already killed the PvP ESports dream.

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As I have said before.

To "keep downstate" but remove the snowballing effect it gives to larger numbers, the fix is easy.

  • Remove in combat reviving, just like defeated is, downstate then still exists, so if your team wins the fight, they can get you up.

  • Rally should be removed as well. It's a snowballing effect for the larger team.

  • No downed skills etc

  • You can then rework revive traits and the like to new uses

  • (OPTIONAL) Give everyone a revive skill that has to be slotted into a utility/elite slot, skills should all have the same cast time and CD (a fairly long one). This allows for skilled play to get someone in your group up, but means you have to give up something for that ability.

This also fixes the main complaint I see from people in game about No DS events, that being body tagging, since they "go down" still, people have more time to tag bodies for more bags, without the negative effects that downstate brings to stacking/outnumbering people. Another thing it fixes are people who complain that finisher would no longer work with no DS, well, in this version of DS, finishers still exist and can be used. However, as someone who has bought just about all the gem store finishers, I am fine with losing them to get these changes.

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@"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:As I have said before.

To "keep downstate" but remove the snowballing effect it gives to larger numbers, the fix is easy.

  • Remove in combat reviving, just like defeated is, downstate then still exists, so if your team wins the fight, they can get you up.

  • Rally should be removed as well. It's a snowballing effect for the larger team.

  • No downed skills etc

  • You can then rework revive traits and the like to new uses

  • (OPTIONAL) Give everyone a revive skill that has to be slotted into a utility/elite slot, skills should all have the same cast time and CD (a fairly long one). This allows for skilled play to get someone in your group up, but means you have to give up something for that ability.

This also fixes the main complaint I see from people in game about No DS events, that being body tagging, since they "go down" still, people have more time to tag bodies for more bags, without the negative effects that downstate brings to stacking/outnumbering people. Another thing it fixes are people who complain that finisher would no longer work with no DS, well, in this version of DS, finishers still exist and can be used. However, as someone who has bought just about all the gem store finishers, I am fine with losing them to get these changes.

I rather have party revival gone you cant revieve any dead its wp for them or out of an instance like dungeons or raids and fractals

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@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:As I have said before.

To "keep downstate" but remove the snowballing effect it gives to larger numbers, the fix is easy.
  • Remove in combat reviving, just like defeated is, downstate then still exists, so if your team wins the fight, they can get you up.
  • Rally should be removed as well. It's a snowballing effect for the larger team.
  • No downed skills etc
  • You can then rework revive traits and the like to new uses
  • (OPTIONAL) Give everyone a revive skill that has to be slotted into a utility/elite slot, skills should all have the same cast time and CD (a fairly long one). This allows for skilled play to get someone in your group up, but means you have to give up something for that ability.

This also fixes the main complaint I see from people in game about No DS events, that being body tagging, since they "go down" still, people have more time to tag bodies for more bags, without the negative effects that downstate brings to stacking/outnumbering people. Another thing it fixes are people who complain that finisher would no longer work with no DS, well, in this version of DS, finishers still exist and can be used. However, as someone who has bought just about all the gem store finishers, I am fine with losing them to get these changes.

I rather have party revival gone you cant revieve any dead its wp for them or out of an instance like dungeons or raids and fractals

What do you mean by party revival? And why no full dead revival? I don't think I would have an issue with it, but I also don't see how it impacts fights or balance, in that full dead are almost always revived after one side wins, due to not being able to do so in combat, and people leaving combat to revive one full dead player, is a negative, and you would better serve your side by contributing to the fight.

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@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:As I have said before.

To "keep downstate" but remove the snowballing effect it gives to larger numbers, the fix is easy.
  • Remove in combat reviving, just like defeated is, downstate then still exists, so if your team wins the fight, they can get you up.
  • Rally should be removed as well. It's a snowballing effect for the larger team.
  • No downed skills etc
  • You can then rework revive traits and the like to new uses
  • (OPTIONAL) Give everyone a revive skill that has to be slotted into a utility/elite slot, skills should all have the same cast time and CD (a fairly long one). This allows for skilled play to get someone in your group up, but means you have to give up something for that ability.

This also fixes the main complaint I see from people in game about No DS events, that being body tagging, since they "go down" still, people have more time to tag bodies for more bags, without the negative effects that downstate brings to stacking/outnumbering people. Another thing it fixes are people who complain that finisher would no longer work with no DS, well, in this version of DS, finishers still exist and can be used. However, as someone who has bought just about all the gem store finishers, I am fine with losing them to get these changes.

I rather have party revival gone you cant revieve any dead its wp for them or out of an instance like dungeons or raids and fractals

What do you mean by party revival? And why no full dead revival? I don't think I would have an issue with it, but I also don't see how it impacts fights or balance, in that full dead are almost always revived after one side wins, due to not being able to do so in combat, and people leaving combat to revive one full dead player, is a negative, and you would better serve your side by contributing to the fight.

I rather have no revival for death shouldnt be so easly avoided its better for full dead to wp so it dont cater to i wait and do nothing to contribute while the rest fight

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I mainly roam and happily fight 1v2 or 1v3, with lots of camp defending and general harassment, so I like no downstate. I can sort of see both sides of the argument in larger battles though.I'd be happy with:-No more rally off of guards. This is the primary reason that I like having no downstate-Full dead = wp. At least if a smaller force is getting a few full kills they can whittle down the larger one, possibly intercept returning fighters, etc. instead of just having a few OoC people rez up the kills and keep the zergball rolling.

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No downstate week= all those lovely groups of 2/3 thiefs, add a mesmer and maybe a ranger going around ganking or picking off players one by one, with no counterplay for most classes at all. Rooted, stunned, instant 6 'skill' macros times 3,,,what's not to like watching players be picked off?

Great fun!

Speeds up the death of wvw just a little bit more. Enjoy the cheese.

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@frareanselm.1925 said:I think the groups in disavantage (outnumbered) should have downed state and the others no. It would be fair.

The thing is people don't think how this is going to play out in game. you can't have one side or another get DS and one not.

Example, I am a solo roamer for the most part, my servers zerg moves off EBG to the BL I am on, the other side goes outnumbered, yet I am fighting 1vs4 in a camp, how am I outnumbering the other side? As all those people are in one area ktraining on the other side of the map.

Another example, a skill/fight guild of about 15 are on a BL, the other side has numbers but no tag, or a pug tag, that 15 man fight guild is never going to die to the pugs, since the pugs go down with no DS, while the skill group who will know full well how to abuse DS, will keep their players in the fight with pocket healers and no chance for the pugs to get a good spike off to kill someone because of DS carry. We don't need to move an unfair advantage from one side to another, we need to make it so it does NOT benefit ANY side.

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@Shiyo.3578 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:Agreed, downed state has no place in WvW. It's great and adds tons of depth to SPvP and PvE but in WvW all it does is benefit lesser skilled players zerging and outnumbering.I remain somewhat confused how people keep claiming it can be "great and add tons of depth to sPvP" when that is identical to a large part of WvW, ie roaming/smallscale.

Is zerging the definition of WvW now?

I guess it is. No downed state week reveals the true colors.

SPvP is 5vs5. WvW is ??? vs ???There's no ~5v5 in WvW?No 2v3?No 3v2?No 2v2?No 4v3?No 3v5?No 3v3?No 6v6?

Ok clearly that last part is WAY the top and classify as WvW. The rest dont according to people.

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@"Baldrick.8967" said:No downstate week= all those lovely groups of 2/3 thiefs, add a mesmer and maybe a ranger going around ganking or picking off players one by one, with no counterplay for most classes at all. Rooted, stunned, instant 6 'skill' macros times 3,,,what's not to like watching players be picked off?

Great fun!

Speeds up the death of wvw just a little bit more. Enjoy the cheese.

4bqwda.jpg

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Folks have talked about how it's frustrating not to be able to "chip away" at an enemy zerg, and I've been there a lot, but I feel like downed state does promote something useful, which is pressure to actually take and hold ground. The fights this week seem to be kind all-over-the-place because there's rather few advantages to engaging enemies up close, and no pressure to safeguard your own downs. Meanwhile the "boonball" in general is still very strong because even no-downstate week still rewards using your massive density to stack buffs and mitigate incoming damage.

I'd really just like to see some more attention paid to res rates, and perhaps mechanics for interacting with downs beyond just "spam nukes here" (Poison reducing revive rate is a great start) and "rub rub rub." Removing rally might also be a good idea, for here and in SPvP. But I honestly think just getting rid of downs would be a huge mistake that would flatten the game considerably.

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It so heavily and blatantly favours those that outnumber you, even if you vastly outskill them, that completely neuters any fun many of us have with the game.

Downed state is GOOD in Structured PvP.Downed state is GOOD in PvE.Downed state is absolutely terrible in WvW.

Now that we don't have downed state I've been having the most fun ever.

Suggestion:The downed mechanic is ONLY activated for those that have the Outnumbered buff.

I want to read WHY you are in favour or against.Hint: Elemetalist's Vapour form is NOT a good reason in favour.

So does life. Please level up that navy seal LARPING skillset and apply it to wvw.

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@"ASP.8093" said:Folks have talked about how it's frustrating not to be able to "chip away" at an enemy zerg, and I've been there a lot, but I feel like downed state does promote something useful, which is pressure to actually take and hold ground. The fights this week seem to be kind all-over-the-place because there's rather few advantages to engaging enemies up close, and no pressure to safeguard your own downs. Meanwhile the "boonball" in general is still very strong because even no-downstate week still rewards using your massive density to stack buffs and mitigate incoming damage.

I'd really just like to see some more attention paid to res rates, and perhaps mechanics for interacting with downs beyond just "spam nukes here" (Poison reducing revive rate is a great start) and "rub rub rub." Removing rally might also be a good idea, for here and in SPvP. But I honestly think just getting rid of downs would be a huge mistake that would flatten the game considerably.

I agree the mode would flatten if there were no more downstate, covering downs and people who are up but getting focused and sniped can be where the flip of a fight happens. Like I mentioned in another thread patience will run out for raising full downs and a lot of players wont want to try to replenish that tighter zerg tail, especially on Desert map in the long run. I'd like to remove rally and profession skills and just add a really slow crawl skill and a G key skill or something to let friendlies slowly drag downs and allow friendly pull skills to pull downs.

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@"Dawdler.8521" said:

Alternativly a poll with 3 options where option 1 is remove downstate, option 2 is change it and option 3 is keep it, then the delete downed state crowd will claim victory and that a majority want to delete it when option 1 and option 2 gets 70%+ of the votes despite removing downstate only accounting for a minority of that.

That already happened. It was the poll which is claimed as evidence, that "the majority" wants the downstate to be removed - in every other (non-cheated) poll it was obvious that there are more people that wants it to stay, then people wanting it to be permanently removed.

But i am pretty sure, you do know that ;.)

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@Jeran.6850 said:

Alternativly a poll with 3 options where option 1 is remove downstate, option 2 is change it and option 3 is keep it, then the delete downed state crowd will claim victory and that a majority want to delete it when option 1 and option 2 gets 70%+ of the votes despite removing downstate only accounting for a minority of that.

That already happened. It was the poll which is claimed as evidence, that "the majority" wants the downstate to be removed - in every other (non-cheated) poll it was obvious that there are more people that wants it to stay, then people wanting it to be permanently removed.

But i am pretty sure, you do know that ;.)

@Dawdler.8521 's point -----> ......----------> Your head.

That's exactly what he was on about. Every time there is a no downstate week, gankers come out of the woodwork to vote to make this game more like Call of Duty.

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@"Kylden Ar.3724" said:

----------> Your head.

That's exactly what he was on about. Every time there is a no downstate week, gankers come out of the woodwork to vote to make this game more like Call of Duty.

Sorry, maybe theres a problem again with me using a language i am not that comfortable with... i wasnt attacking him at all. It was a kind of "agreeing"...

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