NO Downstate should STAY permanently. - [Merged]

[Jeran.6850]

@Tom.5914 said:

@"Plautze.6290" said:As a player who actually loses as many fights as he wins in WvW, I would prefer Downed State to stay removed.Imho, there is nothing less epic than lying in the dirt and tossing scrap at your opponent. Maybe it's just my Dark Souls mindset, but if I mess up, it's fine for me to start over.

Perhaps, someone can start a poll on this? I'd be quite interested in the results.

The result will be that the majority of glass canon tryhards want downstate to stay, because they rely on being rezzed all the time

Downstate supports bad players and outnumbering !

Thief, rev, warrior, ranger and mesmer can play "glass canon" with a pretty big safety net, its a little bit unfair to call the remaining possible power classes "tryhards".

[Kylden Ar.3724]

@"Jeran.6850" said:Ah... i think i know now. Nevermind.

It was intended as a friendly jab, as you were agreeing with him while still not. It's cool. For it not being your first language, you write English better than many "native" speakers around me.

[Jeran.6850]

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:Thanks :)

[TheGrimm.5624]

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:As I have said before.

To "keep downstate" but remove the snowballing effect it gives to larger numbers, the fix is easy.

• Remove in combat reviving, just like defeated is, downstate then still exists, so if your team wins the fight, they can get you up.

• Rally should be removed as well. It's a snowballing effect for the larger team.

• No downed skills etc

• You can then rework revive traits and the like to new uses

• (OPTIONAL) Give everyone a revive skill that has to be slotted into a utility/elite slot, skills should all have the same cast time and CD (a fairly long one). This allows for skilled play to get someone in your group up, but means you have to give up something for that ability.

This also fixes the main complaint I see from people in game about No DS events, that being body tagging, since they "go down" still, people have more time to tag bodies for more bags, without the negative effects that downstate brings to stacking/outnumbering people. Another thing it fixes are people who complain that finisher would no longer work with no DS, well, in this version of DS, finishers still exist and can be used. However, as someone who has bought just about all the gem store finishers, I am fine with losing them to get these changes.

I rather have party revival gone you cant revieve any dead its wp for them or out of an instance like dungeons or raids and fractals

What do you mean by party revival? And why no full dead revival? I don't think I would have an issue with it, but I also don't see how it impacts fights or balance, in that full dead are almost always revived after one side wins, due to not being able to do so in combat, and people leaving combat to revive one full dead player, is a negative, and you would better serve your side by contributing to the fight.

I rather have no revival for death shouldnt be so easly avoided its better for full dead to wp so it dont cater to i wait and do nothing to contribute while the rest fight

I admit I am for the defeated to have to WP. Allow people to be got back up before being defeated, but if you let them get to the defeated state they are out, back to WP with them. Was seeing a lot of spaced out fights this weekend and I think that at least was in part from people releasing and coming back to the fight. This created more fights while people were in transit. It also meant winner or loser both sides were running. I think this coupled with other adjustments to downstate could help the scales between zerg wins and people going in against a larger force. We should have other weeks of adjusted rules to see how that would impact gameplay since, at least to me, would encourage more people to go for the fights they can't win. If you could at least thin them out, would be worth it, if you know you could slow them some. Plus adjusting downstate keeps the strategic side of downstate since people would have to decide, do I get the downed up, or not and then have 1 less till they got back to the fight. I don't think it has to be all one way or all another. Keep as is or remove, if given that I would side with the remove if there is no place in the middle for adjusting the mechanic.

Another thing, try a week of 1 to 1 rez of downed and remove revival of defeated. If that's still too OP, reduce downed HP on top of that.

[Raiden The Beast.3016]

@"jpsssss.7530" said:"blablabla...that has allowed thief to go untouched for far too long...blabla"

LOL? this community getting moar and moar a joke from year to year ... teef untouched... lol...

• teef noddle dmg
• anti stealth mechanics all over the world
• mount
• op broken builds
• ...

When it comes to skill I would rate wvw in current community state lower than pve npc gang bang...

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

Im sure the 4 man and 5 man group I beat about 1 hour ago wished it wouldnt stay xD

I will say that no downstate weeds out the good from the bad from the ugly (ugly being those that rely on cheese)

[Laila Lightness.8742]

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:As I have said before.

To "keep downstate" but remove the snowballing effect it gives to larger numbers, the fix is easy.

• Remove in combat reviving, just like defeated is, downstate then still exists, so if your team wins the fight, they can get you up.

• Rally should be removed as well. It's a snowballing effect for the larger team.

• No downed skills etc

• You can then rework revive traits and the like to new uses

• (OPTIONAL) Give everyone a revive skill that has to be slotted into a utility/elite slot, skills should all have the same cast time and CD (a fairly long one). This allows for skilled play to get someone in your group up, but means you have to give up something for that ability.

This also fixes the main complaint I see from people in game about No DS events, that being body tagging, since they "go down" still, people have more time to tag bodies for more bags, without the negative effects that downstate brings to stacking/outnumbering people. Another thing it fixes are people who complain that finisher would no longer work with no DS, well, in this version of DS, finishers still exist and can be used. However, as someone who has bought just about all the gem store finishers, I am fine with losing them to get these changes.

I rather have party revival gone you cant revieve any dead its wp for them or out of an instance like dungeons or raids and fractals

What do you mean by party revival? And why no full dead revival? I don't think I would have an issue with it, but I also don't see how it impacts fights or balance, in that full dead are almost always revived after one side wins, due to not being able to do so in combat, and people leaving combat to revive one full dead player, is a negative, and you would better serve your side by contributing to the fight.

I rather have no revival for death shouldnt be so easly avoided its better for full dead to wp so it dont cater to i wait and do nothing to contribute while the rest fight

I admit I am for the defeated to have to WP. Allow people to be got back up before being defeated, but if you let them get to the defeated state they are out, back to WP with them. Was seeing a lot of spaced out fights this weekend and I think that at least was in part from people releasing and coming back to the fight. This created more fights while people were in transit. It also meant winner or loser both sides were running. I think this coupled with other adjustments to downstate could help the scales between zerg wins and people going in against a larger force. We should have other weeks of adjusted rules to see how that would impact gameplay since, at least to me, would encourage more people to go for the fights they can't win. If you could at least thin them out, would be worth it, if you know you could slow them some. Plus adjusting downstate keeps the strategic side of downstate since people would have to decide, do I get the downed up, or not and then have 1 less till they got back to the fight. I don't think it has to be all one way or all another. Keep as is or remove, if given that I would side with the remove if there is no place in the middle for adjusting the mechanic.

Another thing, try a week of 1 to 1 rez of downed and remove revival of defeated. If that's still too OP, reduce downed HP on top of that.

I want anet to ad in death penalty wich lowers health cleared by killing or doing escorts capping 1st death 10%health lower 2nd in row 20% and so on until max of 60%

[urd.8306]

I want Anet to add that to "fleeing combat and reset".

[Jeydra.4386]

@Khenzy.9348 said:We are outnumbered and already using our CC skills, stabilities and defensives to barely stay alive and perfectly time those bursts. I don't even try to stomp most of the time as 90% to 100% of my HP goes away and I get downed instead (or perma CCed of course), this became even worse after the damage reduction patch because damaging the downed body is worthless 9 and a half out of 10 times. It's like the game with its mechanics is actively fighing against you winning, it's incredibly frustrating. A feeling of complete impotence overwhelms you after someone you fought so hard to down is suddenly alive and well just because some people used something as simplistic as the interact keybind on the downed body and there was almost nothing you could do about it, and they will also have stability and other kitten because this mechanic gets exponentially worse the more people you're fighting against.

Did you consider that perhaps you would not have downed those players if they knew they would not go to downstate? In other words, if there were no downstate, they would not have pushed that hard?

I am against removing downstate.

PS: Elementalist Vapor Form is a good reason to keep downstate because not having it nerfs the class quite a bit.

[Naxos.2503]

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@"Naxos.2503" said:I dont know why people complain about downstate. It's literally a boon if you manage to put one player into a down, because you'll then get 4-5 players on their side Not fighting and grouping together in the same spot. It's a revenant/elementalist dream. You know you can use it against them, but you choose not to.

you don't understand. having several skills, if not all of them on cd to down someone just to see him come back isn't fun or rewarding at all.if 4-5 players helps a downed they will raize him so fast that your poor attempt at dealing damage to all of them will result in your death.when the fight is even and one is down, the downed can still dps and CC you. soem will just dps you instead of helping the downed while you are folcused on finishing that downed..in bus vs bus you often waste AOE on downed to be sure of their death instead of hitting the enemy, still alive.

My kill count very much begs to differ. If you AoE rezzers, they will take damage and rez at a reduced speed. If you use your skills wisely, you essentially trigger a chainkill.Such things as a "poor attempt" at dealing damage when the enemy is losing players doesn't exist. If they lose players to AoEs, they're taking damage and want to get out, they wont counter to save a few who went down, and if they do, they rush into more AoE damage that is going to further cost them. Most smart commanders know that, and do Not res downed unless they have the advantage in a fight and can afford to. If you trigger a chain kill, you can easily cut down a zerg to size and lead to your own zerg overtaking theirs with ease. It's been a staple for me with the afforemented two classes : Elementalist fire (geared viper) letting the burning do the job of finishing off downed and the usual fire Power either discourage the larger group (that's what you use Meteor Rain for) and the more focused Firestorm > Flame Burst > Lava Font on the pack of rezzers. It is Ludicrously efficient.

The variant for revenant requires a power hammer, can be coupled with the Renegade elite spec to make use of Citadel Bombardment as an additional AoE. Here you keep the zerg away with Hammer 2, Hammer 3 and Hammer 5 (contrary to belief, zergs do avoid Hammer 5 due to the heavy CC) while using Citadel Bombardment on the rezzers, along with Darkrazor's Daring to actually prevent the rezzers from rezzing -entirely- since it interrupt them constantly. Then adding extra damage to finish whatever's left over with Icerazor's Ire. Hammer 2's area of effect can be aimed to target both rezzers and the zerg as it is a long range AoE and packs a punch.

You may think I've given this too much thoughts considering the lenght I go to to counter Downstate, but as far I recall, WvW is meant to be tactical, and I daresay, many people who argument against it probably dont think Enough about it. All the above skills I mentionned can be used in other situations as well. It isn't a niche role, and doesn't require much time, can be coupled with another role, and in general rakes up a ton of kills easily.

[MedievalThings.5417]

@Jeydra.4386 said:

@Khenzy.9348 said:We are outnumbered and already using our CC skills, stabilities and defensives to barely stay alive and perfectly time those bursts. I don't even try to stomp most of the time as 90% to 100% of my HP goes away and I get downed instead (or perma CCed of course), this became even worse after the damage reduction patch because damaging the downed body is worthless 9 and a half out of 10 times. It's like the game with its mechanics is actively fighing against you winning, it's incredibly frustrating. A feeling of complete impotence overwhelms you after someone you fought so hard to down is suddenly alive and well just because some people used something as simplistic as the interact keybind on the downed body and there was almost nothing you could do about it, and they will also have stability and other kitten because this mechanic gets exponentially worse the more people you're fighting against.

Did you consider that perhaps you would not have downed those players if they knew they would not go to downstate? In other words, if there were no downstate, they would not have pushed that hard?

I am against removing downstate.

PS: Elementalist Vapor Form is a good reason to keep downstate because not having it nerfs the class quite a bit.

I feel the opposite. Granted, I love the week anyway. That said, I normally play engineer with the occasional ranger or guard, but spent the entire weekend on my ele (weaver), cause this is a great time for it. Part of the reason I don't play my ele normally is I am not as skilled in the class, and I feel it is just too squishy to justify playing a lot. But during no downstate, I played it till I finished my tickets. It hits hard enough to make up for the squishy (as it should be), and I know that the enemy isn't gonna be downed and get ressed instantly. Surprisingly, I played a lot better than I expected, and really didn't die much. Compared to certain builds, I don't see no downstate as a nerf to ele.

[Sweeneyton.4675]

Yes please, remove downstate permanently. I'd like to actually play the game when outnumbered.

[Black Storm.6974]

No downed state don’t need any more space in Guild Wars 2. No downed state makes the combat feel more empty and less immersive, and only a small minority is interested in it.

The game is also not balanced around no downed state.

Removing it, in any game mode, would just be a big mistake.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

This thread just confirms what many have been saying all along: That the way downstate works in WvW principally benefits lesser skilled players who are being carried by their zerg.

"Waaaaaaah I'm being WAHNSHAWT!!!"

Bruh. It's time for a reality check:

You already were getting oneshot. You always have been.

The difference is beforehand you could be insta-rezzed back up by your group quickly, so you didn't notice the effects so much. But the fact is picking people off who are playing out of position from their zerg has always been a thing. It has never not been a thing. The only difference now is that the second-chance crutch has been temporarily removed.

Here's the truth: decent players rarely ever get "oneshot". Every class has a 10~20s defensive rotation they can do when they get focused. And of course add LoS and knowing how to abuse noport spots on top of that and you can actually survive against multiple "oneshot" builds all focusing you for a fairly decent amount of time. This is why TTK is often higher in Plat~Legendary in sPvP ranked, because players who know their class know how to survive on it. Decent PvPers in WvW are also capable of solo-roaming, and have been dealing with the no-downstate life in an indirect way for ages.

So that leaves two choices to this weekend for players getting oneshot:

1. Complain about how them feeding/dying all the time is somehow not their fault
2. Take this time to reflect on their class and playstyle, watch streams of known good PvPers, and perhaps learn the real reasons why they are getting WAHNSHAWT. ( Hint: It's not no-downstate )

[Thornwolf.9721]

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@"Hannelore.8153" said:Why are you all so obsessed with these things? Why don't you like fighting?

The secret is they

don't like fighting. They only like winning.

And no downstate week allows winning with the most kitten one shot builds by sniping into zerg tails. This week is gankers dream.

No downstate week should only be permanent if you mean to kill WvW as thoroughly as they already killed the PvP ESports dream.

1. There are a TON of people in wvw this week, hate to break it too you bud.
2. This has been far more fun than what the previous weeks have been, I've been wvwing during the week. Infact this is the most I've logged in for sometime now as it was only friday night reset. E-sports died to class balancing, your issue with no downstate comes down to gimmicky classes not being balanced and even now in the attempt to balance they only add to the already growing fire. Maybe if class design didn't have three generations (Core, HoT and PoF) all vying for control and dominance as the "should be" and the whole of the class was up to snuff with modern GW2 the issue wouldn't exist. It didn't exist in core, but A-net kept power-creeping along and now we're here.
3. Add it permantly, balance the game. If A-net can't do it then NCsoft needs to find someone who can~ I dont care about a-net I care about Tyria. Whoever they have to find who can and wants to make it work, and live on? Im fine with them. But Im begining to wonder if the issues with guild wars 2 are more that "A-net" is infact the problem and not the game. These balance issues came FROM the dev's who seem unable to fix them, or unwilling. Other games and other dev's of similar team sizes manage to fix issues that are game breaking pretty quickly. (Even games that are like guild wars in monetization) I feel the community gives them WAAAAY too much lead-way and WAAAAAY too much credit. Almost everything is re-used assets, outside of a select few and you can see it pretty clearly going through the zones for example the new zone. (Its living world Im not expecting new assets at least.... not that many.) The landscape is a mix of the shivverpeak zones and the krytan zones. Granted there is nothing wrong with that at all.... however the expansions? Well... I feel the one that had the most new assets personally was HoT. From there PoF just took assets from HoT and repurposed them.... this includes animations for E-specs.

All and all they need to make the game cohesive as the game is at odds with itself. You can only ignore it for so long before it catches up to you... and we are getting to where that nasty little pit they've been feeding is coming to collect its dues and has a winning hand I think. But then what do I know, Im just a player who is desired only by them so that I can "consume product". This post will likely be censored if not removed even though Im not trying to be rude.... but honestly it needs to be said that I doubt ANYONE has faith in A-net to do anything right when it comes to classes/class diversity/ class design.

[Jeydra.4386]

@"Ubi.4136" said:I feel the opposite. Granted, I love the week anyway. That said, I normally play engineer with the occasional ranger or guard, but spent the entire weekend on my ele (weaver), cause this is a great time for it. Part of the reason I don't play my ele normally is I am not as skilled in the class, and I feel it is just too squishy to justify playing a lot. But during no downstate, I played it till I finished my tickets. It hits hard enough to make up for the squishy (as it should be), and I know that the enemy isn't gonna be downed and get ressed instantly. Surprisingly, I played a lot better than I expected, and really didn't die much. Compared to certain builds, I don't see no downstate as a nerf to ele.

Do you play mostly in coordinated zergs against foes of roughly equal numbers? With downed state, you can do things like stand on walls and DPS below because even if you go down you can Mist Form back to safety; without it, you're as powerless as a Necro. "Hit them hard enough to make up for it" doesn't work when you go down instantly as well (since Ele is the squishiest class).

I've played Ele for years and this is certainly a nerf. Keep in mind that the Ele downed skill #2 is the strongest of all the downed state skills, so removing it certainly hurts them.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@"Hannelore.8153" said:Why are you all so obsessed with these things? Why don't you like fighting?

The secret is they

don't like fighting. They only like winning.

And no downstate week allows winning with the most kitten one shot builds by sniping into zerg tails. This week is gankers dream.

No downstate week should only be permanent if you mean to kill WvW as thoroughly as they already killed the PvP ESports dream.

1. There are a TON of people in wvw this week, hate to break it too you bud.

That's far more due to the 100% Wxp buff than the event. Most non roamer WvW players I have talked to are already bored of the event, simply because it removes a ton of strategy and depth of combat. Some people care about good and fun fights with back and forth, and not just the wxp pop when something dies after the one push.

As far as actual engagements, it mostly benefits the roaming cloud getting some free kills, smaller organized groups getting some kills before dying to a far larger blob (though it is nice when you wipe the blob with half the numbers, hardly an accomplishment though with the disparity in players skill, which was present before), people grouping up even more or otherwise just hiding behind T3 objectives with tons of ACs. Big fun, yes...

If you want to balance the game mode around the roamers and upper echelon of the player base, that's exactly who you are going to be left with: some roamers and a few "good" players in a dead game mode.

[jsp.6912]

no downstate is retard as fuck

[Vlad Morbius.1759]

This gank fest can't end soon enough for me and all my guildies! This takes so much away from combat and frankly if there was any decision to make this permanent WvW would die a very quick death!

[Zok.4956]

I have made a Power-Soulbeast glas cannon (never played ranger or soulbeast in WvW before) just for this event and I have a lot of cheesy fun to PewPew burst down zerg players that have bad position awareness before they know what hit them.

However, the longer this event lasts, the less fun it is for me and I am glad that the removal of downstate is only a temporary change for a week.

[mindcircus.1506]

@Jeydra.4386 said:I've played Ele for years and this is certainly a nerf. Keep in mind that the Ele downed skill #2 is the strongest of all the downed state skills, so removing it certainly hurts them.It also renders the scrapper's Function Gyro pretty much useless and doesn't give the player a way to replace it.

[Antioche.7034]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@"Hannelore.8153" said:Why are you all so obsessed with these things? Why don't you like fighting?

The secret is they

don't like fighting. They only like winning.

And no downstate week allows winning with the most kitten one shot builds by sniping into zerg tails. This week is gankers dream.

No downstate week should only be permanent if you mean to kill WvW as thoroughly as they already killed the PvP ESports dream.

1. There are a TON of people in wvw this week, hate to break it too you bud.

That's far more due to the 100% Wxp buff than the event. Most non roamer WvW players I have talked to are already bored of the event, simply because it removes a ton of strategy and depth of combat. Some people care about good and fun fights with back and forth, and not just the wxp pop when something dies after the one push.

As far as actual engagements, it mostly benefits the roaming cloud getting some free kills, smaller organized groups getting some kills before dying to a far larger blob (though it is nice when you wipe the blob with half the numbers, hardly an accomplishment though with the disparity in players skill, which was present before), people grouping up even more or otherwise just hiding behind T3 objectives with tons of ACs. Big fun, yes...

If you want to balance the game mode around the roamers and upper echelon of the player base, that's exactly who you are going to be left with: some roamers and a few "good" players in a dead game mode.

Exactly this, people are here because of WvW booster, because almost everybody hates farming GoB for legendaries, so they can use this week to spend less time in WvW.

[Antioche.7034]

@Highlie.7641 said:Down state is a crutch for the masses in every PVP mode. It's not good for Spvp at all. 2's and 3's mode should of shown this. i guess people are crazy enough to believe the blowout's you get in those modes are somehow diffrent to the mass blowouts in conquest.

It's absolutely good for sPvP. Being able to deal with downstate requires some modicum of skill, stop trying to make this game easier.2v2 and 3v3 are meme mini-seasons for PvP, they are not balanced and won't ever be.Imagine wishing to remove a mechanic that gave birth to some of the best plays of MotA, because preventing rezzes is actually /skilled/.

[ilMasa.2546]

EVERY S.I.N.G.L.E. TIME there is a "No Downed state" weekend there will be a "NO Downstate should STAY permanently" , since the FIRST "no downed state" was implemented. (June 8 to June 15, 2018)

Its 2020 aaaand guess what?! There will be no permanent "no downed state". Devs dont care.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:by vet players you mean veteran who plays only or mostly gw2, scared to go out of their confort zone blob to learn something new and adapt to the situation?

no

they are the ones who play only/mostly bus in WvW and would hate any change that would nerf the bus, make their game experience harder.

again, no.

You just showed your bias. Congratz.