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NO Downstate should STAY permanently. - [Merged]


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@Jilora.9524 said:

@"subversiontwo.7501" said:
Uncomfortable truth:
These threads filled with people saying "get good" and calling others "rallybots" are purported by people who are not good enough to convert downs to kills under the normal ruleset and wants things to be easier for themselves. The people who are better than them are not saying anything about it or are trying to steer the conversation toward the merit of the mechanics at hand with little success due to all the thumping and bleeting.

Carry on B)

Makes so much sense bro, the people I downed should have a second chance. You're right, my skill was just so TERRIBLE I got his HP to 0, potentially in a 1vX.

Do you even read this stuff before posting? Why should an outnumbered group, ALREADY disadvantaged by the fact they are outnumbered, have to jump MORE hurdles like saving cleave CDs and stomp CDs that larger groups have free reign to use without worrying? VIVA LA BLOB where everyone can do open heart surgery to resurrect dead men.

It really isn't a whole lotta skill to do what you do. Play teef port in down a dude(this wk kill) either stealth finish or start the finish port away still in finishing animation port back last milli second for finish. All while 7-8 dudes can't even hit you or kill you and you port away reset if that don't work. Then you got the rev friend who always has to swap off rev to the same thief build and do the same thing

You're just wrong. For one stealth can cancel stomps, one of the most common builds today being support scrapper.

If you think Shadowstep is an uncounterable stomp, you are mistaken. Shadowstep is 1200 range. Plenty of builds have 1200 range DPS bombs and CCs. CCs like Line of Warding, Slick Shoes, Spectral Ring and Unsteady Ground work through ports.

I have to just avoid using my Shadowstep, WHILE OUTNUMBERED, down a guy, WHILE OUTNUMBERED, use my Shadowstep to stomp, pray I don't get CC'd or DPS'd to death, return to stomp and be in the middle of an enemy group without my most valuable CD because I had to throw it away on a stomp attempt. What about this scenario does not sound unfair???

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@"Kylden Ar.3724" said:

Stealth is part of some classes defense kit. So, fine, we can take it out of the game as long as we either remove the same level of defense kit from other classes, or replace stealth with a new defense kit.

So, which would you prefer?

Theives with Invulnerability, or take it away from Warrior.

Maybe mesmer's should have stealth replaced with more instances of Aegis! That would be fun wouldn't it?

Again, it's been almost 8 years. If they were going to remove stealth it would have been long gone by now. Let this idea die. Move on. Maybe take up knitting.

No, it isn't. If it was part of the defensive toolkit, you could easily bind a "when leaving stealth your damage is lowered by 50% for 3 seconds" or something to the skill. It's similar to death shroud which isn't a necros defense but main offensive skill too.If you take stealth out of the game - all classes with access to stealth and that rely on stealth still have a great defensive toolkit. Engineers have blocks, protections, invulnerabilities, thieves have very high mobility, better evades and teleports and even passive condi cleanse and mesmer has invulnerabilities, ports and "clones" (last point is debatable), same goes for rangers.

So, no, you don't need to be compensated, because those professions already have the compensation for not being able to stealth. On the other hand you have professions that have less of all of that and that's the reason why most roamers pick stealth classes. The whole toolkit allows them to stack power and crit and still survive. Try the same on other classes and you die 50% more often.Remember the joke: When the thief resets you won the fight? Sorry, not sorry, but Stealth needs a serious rework or reveal needs to be a serious counter.

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@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

@"subversiontwo.7501" said:
Uncomfortable truth:
These threads filled with people saying "get good" and calling others "rallybots" are purported by people who are not good enough to convert downs to kills under the normal ruleset and wants things to be easier for themselves. The people who are better than them are not saying anything about it or are trying to steer the conversation toward the merit of the mechanics at hand with little success due to all the thumping and bleeting.

Carry on B)

Makes so much sense bro, the people I downed should have a second chance. You're right, my skill was just so TERRIBLE I got his HP to 0, potentially in a 1vX.

Do you even read this stuff before posting? Why should an outnumbered group, ALREADY disadvantaged by the fact they are outnumbered, have to jump MORE hurdles like saving cleave CDs and stomp CDs that larger groups have free reign to use without worrying? VIVA LA BLOB where everyone can do open heart surgery to resurrect dead men.

It really isn't a whole lotta skill to do what you do. Play teef port in down a dude(this wk kill) either stealth finish or start the finish port away still in finishing animation port back last milli second for finish. All while 7-8 dudes can't even hit you or kill you and you port away reset if that don't work. Then you got the rev friend who always has to swap off rev to the same thief build and do the same thing

You're just wrong. For one stealth can cancel stomps, one of the most common builds today being support scrapper.

If you think Shadowstep is an uncounterable stomp, you are mistaken. Shadowstep is 1200 range. Plenty of builds have 1200 range DPS bombs and CCs. CCs like Line of Warding, Slick Shoes, Spectral Ring and Unsteady Ground work through ports.

I have to just avoid using my Shadowstep, WHILE OUTNUMBERED, down a guy, WHILE OUTNUMBERED, use my Shadowstep to stomp, pray I don't get CC'd or DPS'd to death, return to stomp and be in the middle of an enemy group without my most valuable CD because I had to throw it away on a stomp attempt. What about this scenario does not sound unfair???

I didn't mean every situation. If 1 v 1 you can stealth stomp if vs group you do the lil 1200 pop away finish and I watched you do it a bunch of times one night so I doubt you have to pray for it to work even vs 8 or 9. Not many downed skills can touch 1200 rng when you ss stomp.

The fact you can constantly engage a group of 5-10 w/e and have a bunch target you and get out alive 95 percent of the time and this week grab a kill with 8 others right next to the guy.

You keep capping outnumbered like it matters with that build. When do you actually die? When do you get punished jumping into 5-10 nvm if it's only 1-3.You may be a skilled player but the that build is not skill because there's almost zero risk. What's you k/d with it. I bet 50 to 1 this week easy

Well that time you had your buddy running same build after dying on rev like 3 times and some poor necro who dgaf died like 8 times to you too but that's after 14 went there and couldn't catch you and that's what I'm basing most this off plus other similar builds I see

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@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:What this (and in game discussions) boil down to is:

Remove downstate: mostly people running cheese buids, playing thief, ranger, mesmer. Claim to be good because they can gank others out of stealth and without the fear of any danger at all.

Keep downstate: everybody else.

I'm for removing downstate permanently (or adapting it by removing rally, in-combat rezzing and downed skills), but play none of your mentioned classes. Play Warrior instead, and not even a good build at that. Hell, I get whipped quite a lot right now in WvW.But when I kill someone, it is the result of me actively outplaying the opponent and doesn't end in Scrap Wars while we are both prone, tossing shoes and rocks at each other.Plus, somebody mentioned it already: Get killed? No problem, just try again.

I am fine with removing downstate under the following conditions:

Eles get +10k hpThief, mesmer, ranger damage gets nerfed by 60%. Maximum stealth: 1s. No blinks.Holos are removed from the game.

Simple stuff. Really.

Lol, you do realize that this sounds like "I'm rock, so nerf paper. Scissors are fine."?

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I propose they put downstate on Guild Claiming Objective Upgrades that would affect both allies and enemies but only when the outnumbered buff is up.

So an unclaimed territory would have no downstate regardless of being outnumbered, but a claimed one only has downstate if you're outnumbered on said territory- friend or foe. They can implement this like they do with gliding mechanics or the now-defunct warclaw movespeed buff if on friendly territory. Also, the Centaur and Skritt Camps could finally see some action too.

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@Jilora.9524 said:

@"subversiontwo.7501" said:
Uncomfortable truth:
These threads filled with people saying "get good" and calling others "rallybots" are purported by people who are not good enough to convert downs to kills under the normal ruleset and wants things to be easier for themselves. The people who are better than them are not saying anything about it or are trying to steer the conversation toward the merit of the mechanics at hand with little success due to all the thumping and bleeting.

Carry on B)

Makes so much sense bro, the people I downed should have a second chance. You're right, my skill was just so TERRIBLE I got his HP to 0, potentially in a 1vX.

Do you even read this stuff before posting? Why should an outnumbered group, ALREADY disadvantaged by the fact they are outnumbered, have to jump MORE hurdles like saving cleave CDs and stomp CDs that larger groups have free reign to use without worrying? VIVA LA BLOB where everyone can do open heart surgery to resurrect dead men.

It really isn't a whole lotta skill to do what you do. Play teef port in down a dude(this wk kill) either stealth finish or start the finish port away still in finishing animation port back last milli second for finish. All while 7-8 dudes can't even hit you or kill you and you port away reset if that don't work. Then you got the rev friend who always has to swap off rev to the same thief build and do the same thing

You're just wrong. For one stealth can cancel stomps, one of the most common builds today being support scrapper.

If you think Shadowstep is an uncounterable stomp, you are mistaken. Shadowstep is 1200 range. Plenty of builds have 1200 range DPS bombs and CCs. CCs like Line of Warding, Slick Shoes, Spectral Ring and Unsteady Ground work through ports.

I have to just avoid using my Shadowstep, WHILE OUTNUMBERED, down a guy, WHILE OUTNUMBERED, use my Shadowstep to stomp, pray I don't get CC'd or DPS'd to death, return to stomp and be in the middle of an enemy group without my most valuable CD because I had to throw it away on a stomp attempt. What about this scenario does not sound unfair???

I didn't mean every situation. If 1 v 1 you can stealth stomp if vs group you do the lil 1200 pop away finish and I watched you do it a bunch of times one night so I doubt you have to pray for it to work even vs 8 or 9. Not many downed skills can touch 1200 rng when you ss stomp.

The fact you can constantly engage a group of 5-10 w/e and have a bunch target you and get out alive 95 percent of the time and this week grab a kill with 8 others right next to the guy.

You keep capping outnumbered like it matters with that build. When do you actually die? When do you get punished jumping into 5-10 nvm if it's only 1-3.You may be a skilled player but the that build is not skill because there's almost zero risk. What's you k/d with it. I bet 50 to 1 this week easy

Well that time you had your buddy running same build after dying on rev like 3 times and some poor necro who dgaf died like 8 times to you too but that's after 14 went there and couldn't catch you and that's what I'm basing most this off plus other similar builds I see

In what world do 8 players let a thief kill one guy lol. You act like it is impossible to help teammates without down state, when the meta is 4/6 minstrel supports. Maybe the supports should learn to use their kit better instead of relying on down state crutch?

So your whole post is basically thief QQ? lmfao

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@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Those are 2 different issues. I'm saying: you have no clue what you are talking about and making things up on what you believe might be the case. Where as I have talked with actual players active in this mode right now.

and i didn't? please..

You haven't, and it doesn't take a lot for someone who actually player actively multiple roles in this mode to notice. Just like some of your suggestions clearly betray that you have spent 0 time in this game mode this week besides "roaming" occasionally.

you are getting on my nerves. i don't like you condescending attitude. i did enough playing to realise what you are still blind to.if your sole argument is attacking my potential lack of experience then you are in the wrong.

Then do something about it. Go out there, get in touch with the WvW community on your server, talk to some players, get some chat going in WvW map and see how other players actually feel. The reason I bring this up is because first you admit to not even partaking in many parts of this content, then dodge the issue by pretending you have, when it clearly shows that you haven't. If you were this into WvW, you'd have been exposed to enough player opinions in game to know that this current feature only benefits a very certain play style.

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:I didn't say I had issues. I have enough gear, legenarys and characters and side builds to deal with pretty much any change thrown at me. I said some players don't want to deal with this. Those players leave. You offer no solution to that loss.

what about the player that left after the overall 33% damage nerf all accross WvW? or because they don't have mounts? or hate it? or for whatever reason they didn't liked the new patch?maybe those players should try and learn how to, before thorwing the towel because of a little fence in front of their road.

Damage nerf? Was that before or after the power creep from HoT and PoF? I hope you are not refering to the one earlier this year. Because from a pure build variety, it had 0 effect on classes or playstsyle.

hey make some efforts please. the BIG damage nerf we got this year that changed ALOT of power builds and nerfed the amount of one shot burst build available.claiming it has no effect on lcasses and playstyle is the worst argument you could pull off here. very good for your credibility.(a few example before you claim i speak for nothing:thief can't one shot most class as they could before,engi rifle became trash (as power core engi btw)most autoattack (especially ranged ones) does soo much less damage that previous autoattack builds arn't viable anymore.sniper gameplay changed from kneeling to running around spaming 2 instead of 3 with rifle.etc...

all of the builds you mentioned are for roaming at best, gimmick 1 shot roaming to be exact. They've been replaced btw by other roaming gimmick builds. I was talking about the approach to the main game mode which the WvW population takes part in: squads and blobs. To which the change to condition cleanse and CC skills had a far greater impact, resulting in the need for at least 1 dedicated cleanse class per 2 squad groups, 1 per group for GvG, had a far greater effect. Every damage class still builds pure glass there.

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:You have obviously not taken a single defended T3 objective this event cycle. All I am going to say: your suggestion is rubbish.

it was an often used strategy years ago when WvW was still somewhat a competitive thing (in players mind) and still well populated. now all i see is whinning at the first difficulty encountered because no one want to separate from the bus.

Yes, people also used to blast field while melee training each other. The game has changed a lot since 7 years ago. You might want to actually play some current WvW, because as is, your actuall experience with this mode is lacking, badly.

i swear, all you can do is attacking peoples knowledge with insults instead of giving arguments.

I gave you an argument: please play the content and get some experience. Then you'd realize that most if not all your suggestions do not work. In large part due to the power creep and changes which have come from 2 expansions worth of elite specializations.

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:i understand what you are saying, that you lose too many players to focus fire while already having trouble piercing through the T3 walls and doors. but at least it is now not a one sided massacre until the defenders are big enough.. and maybe it is time to change builds (not neccessary stats, just weapons and abilities to adapt for the change).

No downstate literally favors defenders. In a fight which already favored defenders. I could explain even further, but why bother? You seem very clear on your opinion while literally having not played 1 second in this content.

well i am entilted to answer to this post of yours to the end, but again, some insults.. did i say that this event did not favour defenders? no i didn't. what i did say is that there was some alternative you could try to take down the T3 instead of everyone staying in the blob trying to push through as one army.

Splitting the squad, especially with no downstate, poses a significant risk at current damage levels. The reason boon ball works, is because a lot of players divide the damage up between themselves while being topped off on boons and receiving support. Splitting in front of a T3 objective with current defender damage numbers via siege is suicide during an event like this where support classes ability to keep players alive is gutted.

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Double guards in groups.... I was not aware I had to explicitly mention every single approach to deal with your mentioned change which had "no effect" on the game mode. Firebrand literally "fixed" an issue created by the stability change years later. The other issue being: that only guardian can provide adequate amounts of group stability to this day.

so you agree that having one particular class/build as mandatory to work around an "issue" the game has is a problem right? also you know that anet did that to prevent CC invulnerability right? but now you have FB boonball that negate those changes... well then time to nerf FB stability. (:D)

I agree that players know that they need to be able to counter CC. I agree that players who were against the change, had a valid point. I agree in that the change made a class a requirement in any proper group setup. What I disagree with is how you portray this as though players were clueless and complaining about something without reason. The result pretty much proves that players were right.

the change were made for a reason, a reason that arenanet validated becasue that was their vision of the game. and we dealt with it. what i am saying is that, either FB get nerf so that it gets inline with other stab sharing OR you give some similar ability to other class to avoid the need of FB in every comp.

Oh I fully agree we need more classes with similar amount to access to stability as to make squads less guardian/fb dependent. That though would be a direct move back towards the permanent stability we had in the past.

As far as vision of the game, could I not state the same about downstate? Downstate is the developers vision of the game, and as such they should keep it?

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:It's similar to this situation in that:Sure, players will be able to adapt to a permanent no downstate. It would mean go more tanky for all classes. Roaming would be pretty much dead, squad fights would extend into infinity. Somehow I am not sure you have actually thought through what a permanent no downstate would actually mean for the mode. You're assuming that the free kills and farm you get right now would still exist. It would not.

you are just spouting BS all over the place. no downsate fasten the fights. going full bunker will not save you if you die. outnumbered being a possible thing, a mass bunker group may not have the damage to deal with their loss due to the massive damage the smaller group may have.with downstate, going full bunker make you invincible, especially if you are bigger than your opponent.

With downstate, going full bunker makes your damage to low to fight glass damage dealers with supports in a zerg. What you have right now is the benefit of players NOT adapting to a short term event besides changing some utility skills. If builds actually shifted to accommodate for no downstate, this mode would become far more tanky.

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Yes, I have full confidence that the developers will devote the resources necessary to re-balance the entire WvW mode with no downstate in mind. It will come right after alliances and the fix of all problems we have had in WvW for years.

to be fair, if no downstate can fix most WvW problems (at least partially, like outnumbered, rally bot, player cautiosness, more teamplay, finding the rigth burst builds to nerf, etc) then the path to take is clear.

You literally just lined up a few points you believe to be important. Claim that no downstate somehow magically solves them, then call it a day. Let me make it very simple: if you assume that there is going to be a balance patch as big as would be needed to make permanent no downstate possible, you are either oblivious to how much work would have to be done, or insane.

thats to the devs discretion. with the way your are phrasing your answer i assume that rally bot is perfectly normal to you and contribute to the healthy state of WvW riiiiight?

Yes, making use of downstate is "normal". It's also normal to make use of this offensively or work around it. It's also a short term damage immunity and condi wipe, which works to counter balance the insane burst this game mode or specific builds bring after 2 expansions of power creep. Downstate literally balances 30 players blasting you in your face 1nce for more casual players, something no amount of class balance will be able to do unless the developers freely hand out immunity skills/effects.

As someone who believes that a vast majority of players in this mode play it casually, I'd say many are relying on it. To much? Absolutely, but many players do not have the tendency to improve but rather leave.

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:more teamplay , that is something i observed. players tend to flock together more and stick more, are more cautious of mates health, a little after effect of what no donwtate did to players mind i guess? but not you. finding the right build to nerf, because you know, when there is no downstate you can just focus on the fight before death and realise how some burst builds are.. a bit too bursty.

If by flock together you mean overblob the enemy OR hide in T3 objectives taking advantage of the defender bonus, yes there has been a lot of that going around.

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:While I applaud your success. Honest question: do you think this kind of defenders benefit is healthy?

yes, because that means that downstate carried them until they realised they were not good enough without it. maybe they will now try to improve themselves instead of thinking that they are good because of one PvE mechanic. :)

ah yes, downstate carried the noob players and the pro player won. Meanwhile in a different situation:

downstate carry bad players. they even told me themselves they are against no downstate becasue they can't get back safely to the bus as elem when they get downed. cna't you see a problem here?

This example was about the increased defenders advantage, which just grew with no downstate. This has little to do with any open field engagement or downstate carrying players.

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:PS. a decent burn firebrand is able to do this even outside of no downstate week.

this is a balance problem. and no, 1v5 is impossible to do unless the 5 players are at noob level with atrocious builds.

it's a balance problem since 1v5 is not possible.

I love how you change your opinion based on what you claim. 1v5 as a condi Firebrand is just as possible as using an AC during a no downstate week. The condi FB can context and deny the ressurecting of downstate players, which he can burst down with high burn pressure earlier. Basically mimicking a no downstate scenario. Funny how in one case you are fine with this and for it, in the next it's a balance issue.

5 players will just chain CC and destroy the FB. he may kill one or 2 players caught off guard (because you know, FB is a guard ... hahaha) before his death.you must be happy killing 5 new players 1v5 with your op build right?

Again, this was pertaining to a very specific situation: 1 person defending an objective against 5 attackers. The person literally states:

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:The 5-6 man blue group I solo fended off hills a few hours ago would have beaten me if it not had been for no downstate. KEEP NO DOWNSTATE :)and while I am happy that they enjoyed themselves and were successful, I question how healthy it is to have this big of an defenders advantage.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:The 5-6 man blue group I solo
fended off hills
a few hours ago would have beaten me if it not had been for no downstate. KEEP NO DOWNSTATE :)and while I am happy that they enjoyed themselves and were successful, I question how healthy it is to have this big of an defenders advantage.

It doesn't sound like that he was specifying defenders advantage. I think he was saying that the absence of downstate allows players natural ability and skill to shine and in some cases even achieve a victory that would have been impossible if downstate was a thing.

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So I've played a bit on this 'event' and as I've expected, people hug walls unless they outnumber enemy atleast 3:1, roaming is even more dead since there only run groups of 2+ or some uber cheese builds that have very high sustain or stealth abusers or mobility abusers.People try to cheese kills by burst from stealth like grenade scrapper or some other soulbeast bursts from 1.5k range and if they fail they run to their closest objective portal as fast as they can.On top of that some of these 'pro roamers' try ganking from stealth(group of players abuse stealth to get 1 kill, pathetic to say the least).Tried to play as well some zerg fights as staff ele, as expected any sneeze that wasn't even aimed at you will kill you.People are even more scared to fight now.People that want that thing to be permanent in the WvW, well for sure it'll be interesting to witness all 3 sides to have all T3 objectives for the whole week, because no one will bother go out from their comfort zone to attack anything beside cheesy gankers.Best event for gankers I say.

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@Doug.4930 said:

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:The 5-6 man blue group I solo
fended off hills
a few hours ago would have beaten me if it not had been for no downstate. KEEP NO DOWNSTATE :)and while I am happy that they enjoyed themselves and were successful, I question how healthy it is to have this big of an defenders advantage.

It doesn't sound like that he was specifying defenders advantage. I think he was saying that the absence of downstate allows players natural ability and skill to shine and in some cases even achieve a victory that would have been impossible if downstate was a thing.

Could be, though he did mention that he was defending the hillside keep against 5 attackers solo. No downstate here allows for even more advantage against attackers since the pressure from siege, the in combat state from attacking walls/gate/guards/siege, makes it near impossible for attackers to get someone up who got downed/killed.

It's one of the reasons that hunkering down in T3 objectives and just splash aoe firing into the enemy is so popular during this event. More so than usual. It's guaranteed success, free wxp at a significant advantage with pretty much all pressure on the attacking side.

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No downed state would also make many support skills/traits that meant to revive become obsolete, now i'm not really sure that they are rarely used in PvE, but in WvW? Anet will need to change those to be useful if that ever happenEdit: And both sides have good points, why can't we have a middle ground? How about you can only get downed ONE after that its nap time.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:The 5-6 man blue group I solo
fended off hills
a few hours ago would have beaten me if it not had been for no downstate. KEEP NO DOWNSTATE :)and while I am happy that they enjoyed themselves and were successful, I question how healthy it is to have this big of an defenders advantage.

It doesn't sound like that he was specifying defenders advantage. I think he was saying that the absence of downstate allows players natural ability and skill to shine and in some cases even achieve a victory that would have been impossible if downstate was a thing.

Could be, though he did mention that he was defending the hillside keep against 5 attackers solo. No downstate here allows for even more advantage against attackers since the pressure from siege, the in combat state from attacking walls/gate/guards/siege, makes it near impossible for attackers to get someone up who got downed/killed.

It's one of the reasons that hunkering down in T3 objectives and just splash aoe firing into the enemy is so popular during this event. More so than usual. It's guaranteed success, free wxp at a significant advantage with pretty much all pressure on the attacking side.

There was def no "defenders advantage". They were able to get both walls down in the end and I pulled them out of the lords room so I could have space to move and not get easily bombed by aoe. I had no siege to counter them so it was all player vs players. Granted 2 were "baby rank......pre bronze" and played like such, however the other 3-4 were silver+.

Its thanks to no downstate I was able to do this with an "inferior subpar" build (as its been called a few times now)

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@Ultramex.1506 said:No downed state would also make many support skills/traits that meant to revive become obsolete, now i'm not really sure that they are rarely used in PvE, but in WvW? Anet will need to change those to be useful if that ever happenEdit: And both sides have good points, why can't we have a middle ground? How about you can only get downed ONE after that its nap time.

if no downstate has to stay as a one week per year event until the end of gw2, downstate has to be balanced.

as such i totally agree with this idea of giving the no downstate debuff to someone who was just revived while downed. (for 1 minute?)but they should also remove rally bot completely and severly nerf downed autoattack damage on some class. (or even remove it since rally bot wouldn't be a thing anymore and rework some of the other downed skills.)they may also need to lower the health pool you get when downed and remove the auto cleanse when getting downed.

basically make downed state a real soon to be dead state with only a few skills to try and survive without the ability to dps anyone and having to heal yourself or get help from an ally to come back to life.

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@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

@"subversiontwo.7501" said:
Uncomfortable truth:
These threads filled with people saying "get good" and calling others "rallybots" are purported by people who are not good enough to convert downs to kills under the normal ruleset and wants things to be easier for themselves. The people who are better than them are not saying anything about it or are trying to steer the conversation toward the merit of the mechanics at hand with little success due to all the thumping and bleeting.

Carry on B)

Makes so much sense bro, the people I downed should have a second chance. You're right, my skill was just so TERRIBLE I got his HP to 0, potentially in a 1vX.

Do you even read this stuff before posting? Why should an outnumbered group, ALREADY disadvantaged by the fact they are outnumbered, have to jump MORE hurdles like saving cleave CDs and stomp CDs that larger groups have free reign to use without worrying? VIVA LA BLOB where everyone can do open heart surgery to resurrect dead men.

It really isn't a whole lotta skill to do what you do. Play teef port in down a dude(this wk kill) either stealth finish or start the finish port away still in finishing animation port back last milli second for finish. All while 7-8 dudes can't even hit you or kill you and you port away reset if that don't work. Then you got the rev friend who always has to swap off rev to the same thief build and do the same thing

You're just wrong. For one stealth can cancel stomps, one of the most common builds today being support scrapper.

If you think Shadowstep is an uncounterable stomp, you are mistaken. Shadowstep is 1200 range. Plenty of builds have 1200 range DPS bombs and CCs. CCs like Line of Warding, Slick Shoes, Spectral Ring and Unsteady Ground work through ports.

I have to just avoid using my Shadowstep, WHILE OUTNUMBERED, down a guy, WHILE OUTNUMBERED, use my Shadowstep to stomp, pray I don't get CC'd or DPS'd to death, return to stomp and be in the middle of an enemy group without my most valuable CD because I had to throw it away on a stomp attempt. What about this scenario does not sound unfair???

I didn't mean every situation. If 1 v 1 you can stealth stomp if vs group you do the lil 1200 pop away finish and I watched you do it a bunch of times one night so I doubt you have to pray for it to work even vs 8 or 9. Not many downed skills can touch 1200 rng when you ss stomp.

The fact you can constantly engage a group of 5-10 w/e and have a bunch target you and get out alive 95 percent of the time and this week grab a kill with 8 others right next to the guy.

You keep capping outnumbered like it matters with that build. When do you actually die? When do you get punished jumping into 5-10 nvm if it's only 1-3.You may be a skilled player but the that build is not skill because there's almost zero risk. What's you k/d with it. I bet 50 to 1 this week easy

Well that time you had your buddy running same build after dying on rev like 3 times and some poor necro who dgaf died like 8 times to you too but that's after 14 went there and couldn't catch you and that's what I'm basing most this off plus other similar builds I see

In what world do 8 players let a thief kill one guy lol. You act like it is impossible to help teammates without down state, when the meta is 4/6 minstrel supports. Maybe the supports should learn to use their kit better instead of relying on down state crutch?

So your whole post is basically thief QQ? lmfao

Ok, it is related to this week and this thread about removing ds perm and how builds like yours would be a problem. But ok 4/6 support if they were a gg but we all know QQ doesn't attack guild groups. It was cute you put QQ in your reply so I had to. I guess if you can't sneak into a 5-10 group and grab a kill this week I overestimated your skill. Again this was that build and this no ds thread and you calling downing a guy normally and him getting rezzed being an issue. Gl bro

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@diomache.9246 said:

@"Kylden Ar.3724" said:

Stealth is part of some classes defense kit. So, fine, we can take it out of the game as long as we either remove the same level of defense kit from other classes, or replace stealth with a new defense kit.

So, which would you prefer?

Theives with Invulnerability, or take it away from Warrior.

Maybe mesmer's should have stealth replaced with more instances of Aegis! That would be fun wouldn't it?

Again, it's been almost 8 years. If they were going to remove stealth it would have been long gone by now.
Let this idea die. Move on. Maybe take up knitting.

No, it isn't. If it was part of the defensive toolkit, you could easily bind a "when leaving stealth your damage is lowered by 50% for 3 seconds" or something to the skill. It's similar to death shroud which isn't a necros defense but main offensive skill too.If you take stealth out of the game -
all classes with access to stealth and that rely on stealth still have a great defensive toolkit. Engineers have blocks, protections, invulnerabilities, thieves have very high mobility, better evades and teleports and even passive condi cleanse and mesmer has invulnerabilities, ports and "clones" (last point is debatable), same goes for rangers.

So, no, you don't need to be compensated, because those professions already have the compensation for not being able to stealth. On the other hand you have professions that have less of all of that and that's the reason why most roamers pick stealth classes. The whole toolkit allows them to stack power and crit and still survive. Try the same on other classes and you die 50% more often.Remember the joke: When the thief resets you won the fight? Sorry, not sorry, but Stealth needs a serious rework or reveal needs to be a serious counter.

No, if they removed STEALTH, we DO IN FACT NEED COMPENSATION. Those are skills tied to the classes, that people paid money to play the game and play. What you're saying is the same as if you said, "Warrior would be fine without weapon swap, they already have so many skills that do damage."

If you remove stealth, it needs to be replaced with other defense skills or utility, and if you don't like theives and mesmers now, just wait till you get your poorly thought out wish and now while trying to fight them you also see endless trains of "Block block evade block block block block evade block" in addition to them skipping around you like a lemur high on PCP.

You all do not know what you are asking for.

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"Kylden Ar.3724" said:
Again, it's been almost 8 years. If they were going to remove stealth it would have been long gone by now.
Let this idea die. Move on. Maybe take up knitting.If the idea of removing downed state hasnt died after almost 8 years, why should stealth?

Because removing and replacing stealth skills, traits, and gear (rune of trapper, for example) is a lot harder than 'toggle downstate in WvW' on the developers, and a massive change to the game-play. They are not going to remove it.

They would be better off asking for more reasonable changes like "Stealth appears to enemies like it does allies if you get within X units" than outright deleting class kits (like I already have suggested even as a Mesmer Main). But they won't because they don't want to talk about reasonable balance, they just want to get easier kills and not have to actually be situation aware.

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@Kylden Ar.3724 said:Because removing and replacing stealth skills, traits, and gear (rune of trapper, for example) is a lot harder than 'toggle downstate in WvW' on the developers, and a massive change to the game-play. They are not going to remove it.... are you implying there are no skills, traits and runes associated with downed state?

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@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

Stealth is part of some classes defense kit. So, fine, we can take it out of the game as long as we either remove the same level of defense kit from other classes, or replace stealth with a new defense kit.

So, which would you prefer?

Theives with Invulnerability, or take it away from Warrior.

Maybe mesmer's should have stealth replaced with more instances of Aegis! That would be fun wouldn't it?

Again, it's been almost 8 years. If they were going to remove stealth it would have been long gone by now.
Let this idea die. Move on. Maybe take up knitting.

No, it isn't. If it was part of the defensive toolkit, you could easily bind a "when leaving stealth your damage is lowered by 50% for 3 seconds" or something to the skill. It's similar to death shroud which isn't a necros defense but main offensive skill too.If you take stealth out of the game -
all classes with access to stealth and that rely on stealth still have a great defensive toolkit. Engineers have blocks, protections, invulnerabilities, thieves have very high mobility, better evades and teleports and even passive condi cleanse and mesmer has invulnerabilities, ports and "clones" (last point is debatable), same goes for rangers.

So, no, you don't need to be compensated, because those professions already have the compensation for not being able to stealth. On the other hand you have professions that have less of all of that and that's the reason why most roamers pick stealth classes. The whole toolkit allows them to stack power and crit and still survive. Try the same on other classes and you die 50% more often.Remember the joke: When the thief resets you won the fight? Sorry, not sorry, but Stealth needs a serious rework or reveal needs to be a serious counter.

No, if they removed STEALTH, we DO IN FACT NEED COMPENSATION.
Those are skills tied to the classes,
that people paid money
to play the game and play. What you're saying is the same as if you said, "Warrior would be fine without weapon swap, they already have so many skills that do damage."

If you remove stealth, it needs to be replaced with other defense skills or utility, and if you don't like theives and mesmers now, just wait till you get your poorly thought out wish and now while trying to fight them you also see endless trains of "Block block evade block block block block evade block" in addition to them skipping around you like a lemur high on PCP.

You all do not know what you are asking for.

Again, it's been almost 8 years. If they were going to remove stealth it would have been long gone by now.
Let this idea die. Move on. Maybe take up knitting.If the idea of removing downed state hasnt died after almost 8 years, why should stealth?

Because removing and replacing stealth skills, traits, and gear (rune of trapper, for example) is a lot harder than 'toggle downstate in WvW' on the developers, and a massive change to the game-play. They are not going to remove it.

They would be better off asking for more reasonable changes like "Stealth appears to enemies like it does allies if you get within X units" than outright deleting class kits (like
even as a Mesmer Main). But they won't because they don't want to talk about reasonable balance, they just want to get easier kills and not have to actually be situation aware.

They aren't going to remove ds or stealth so relax

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:Because removing and replacing stealth skills, traits, and gear (rune of trapper, for example) is a lot harder than 'toggle downstate in WvW' on the developers, and a massive change to the game-play. They are not going to remove it.... are you implying there are no skills, traits and runes associated with downed state?

Not at all, but we've also discussed at length the number of things that people just can't use this week and have no option to swap in.

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@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:Because removing and replacing stealth skills, traits, and gear (rune of trapper, for example) is a lot harder than 'toggle downstate in WvW' on the developers, and a massive change to the game-play. They are not going to remove it.... are you implying there are no skills, traits and runes associated with downed state?

Not at all, but we've also discussed at length the number of things that people just can't use this week and have no option to swap in.But we could have a toggle revealed week right? Just as easy as toggle downstate, dont you think? It would literally just be an effect on all players making them unable to apply stealth.

So your argument is moot. It's the exact same thing. Remove downed state and stealth.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:Because removing and replacing stealth skills, traits, and gear (rune of trapper, for example) is a lot harder than 'toggle downstate in WvW' on the developers, and a massive change to the game-play. They are not going to remove it.... are you implying there are no skills, traits and runes associated with downed state?

Not at all, but we've also discussed at length the number of things that people just can't use this week and have no option to swap in.But we could have a toggle revealed week right? Just as easy as toggle downstate, dont you think? It would literally just be an effect on all players making them unable to apply stealth.

So your argument is moot. It's the exact same thing.

Sure, let's have a toggle revealed week. Maybe when these people get killed by buster Revenants or Guaidians or STILL Rangers or even Daredevils or Mesmers that just set for pure deuling, they might finally realize it's not stealth that is the problem, but their builds and skills.

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@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:Because removing and replacing stealth skills, traits, and gear (rune of trapper, for example) is a lot harder than 'toggle downstate in WvW' on the developers, and a massive change to the game-play. They are not going to remove it.... are you implying there are no skills, traits and runes associated with downed state?

Not at all, but we've also discussed at length the number of things that people just can't use this week and have no option to swap in.But we could have a toggle revealed week right? Just as easy as toggle downstate, dont you think? It would literally just be an effect on all players making them unable to apply stealth.

So your argument is moot. It's the exact same thing.

Sure, let's have a toggle revealed week. Maybe when these people get killed by buster Revenants or Guaidians or STILL Rangers or even Daredevils or Mesmers that just set for pure deuling, they might finally realize it's not stealth that is the problem, but their builds and skills.See how you can just replace "stealth" with "downstate" in that last sentance, lol.
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@"XenesisII.1540" said:I have no horse in this race, as I don't get killed often, and I get my fair share of kills in roaming or zergs so fine with it either way.

But I find it funny people asking for down state to be taken out when other popular games are putting it in, like most of the battle royale games and other coop games. Mind you as mentioned it's fine in small group scenarios and zergs is really where the problem is (cept for roamers who all think they should be able to 1v3 anyone and everyone). And funny when people complained about mount stomps which got the game closer to no down state.

Yes, battle royale games adding downstate, the common reason given now for DS in GW2. Except the main reason for them adding downstate and reviving is because they can't just respawn and run back, in a battle royale game, if you die, you are out until the next match. In WvW you have instant respawning, no need for someone to get you up, to take great risk to go to a respawn that has a cast time, out in the open, with signals showing where you are and your teammate comes back with no gear. Another factor to consider is that if you go down in a battle royale, you can't just stick a res in the middle of a fight, doing so is 100% death, which is not the case in GW2, where sticking a revive in a fight is common and reviving can happen faster than a finisher can stomp because in GW2 you are not limited to 1:1 reviving like in battle royale. Most BR also do not have downed skills or utility and if a revive is interrupted, the player does not gain downed health, so if you go for a revive mid fight because of cover or the other side pulling off, but you have to stop because of getting pushed, you have to restart the revive all over. In GW2, they gain health, when it should be a revive timer like BR games, this also means if you focus DPS a down, they are not gaining HP the whole time you are trying to kill them and they have no self heal, which is why people can be flushed even while someone is reviving them in BR. If we add in those battle royale features, because we should be following battle royale games right? Then I am fine with keeping downstate.

So, since we are going battle royale:

  • Once defeated, a party member has to recover your banner off your body that has a timer before it expires and take you to a respawn area that signals on the map they are being respawned.
  • Once respawned, you have no gear and have to go back to your dead body to collect it.
  • If you are not revived by another party member, you are out of the skirmish and can only enter again once the timer resets.
  • No downed skills
  • 1:1 reviving
  • Reviving is a hard timer and is reset if broken or interrupted
  • Downed players do not gain HP while being revived
  • Downstate remains

Sounds good to me, but I am willing to bet those who depend on the DS crutch are not going to like it much. But people don't think about what they are suggesting before tossing out reasons another game has a given mechanic without even understanding how it is implemented, because the other game is actually MORE punishing to those who die.

People say GW2 is casual, and being able to respawn instantly, without cost or punishment, even gear repair has been free for the longest time, the ONLY punishment for dying is that you have to run back, that's it. And people want to suggest that removing downstate somehow makes the game less casual? Are y'all for real?

Also funny when people say to get good and stop relying on that crutch, when the same could be said for them to get good and manage down states better with stealth stability or cc, especially if you're using a class that has stealth to basically get a free stomp off, these are usually the high burst classes too.

And in PvP that is fine and can be managed just fine, however PvP is a forced even numbers match where DS is not a problem. However in WvW where most people like to fight only when they have greater numbers and where even numbered fights almost never happen, it's a snowballing effect for the larger side. Sure, I am "not a good player" because the other side had 3-4 times the HP, the DPS, the utility, the dodges, the CC etc etc, but you say I am not good even though I can down 1-2 of them, because I can't pull an extra utility out my ass to cover a stomp (that 2-3 people can out res very easy), or DPS the down while eating a bomb because I either have to focus the other players or try and secure the down, means that I don't know how to manage my skills and play? Are you kidding me? How about the 1-2 people in the 4 man group that I downed while being a solo, manage their skills and not get downed.

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@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@XenesisII.1540 said:I have no horse in this race, as I don't get killed often, and I get my fair share of kills in roaming or zergs so fine with it either way.

But I find it funny people asking for down state to be taken out when other popular games are putting it in, like most of the battle royale games and other coop games. Mind you as mentioned it's fine in small group scenarios and zergs is really where the problem is (cept for roamers who all think they should be able to 1v3 anyone and everyone). And funny when people complained about mount stomps which got the game closer to no down state.

Yes, battle royale games adding downstate, the common reason given now for DS in GW2. Except the main reason for them adding downstate and reviving is because they can't just respawn and run back, in a battle royale game, if you die,
you are out
until the next match.

Save the brick wall lecture Chen, obviously br and wvw are not 1 to 1 in comparisons for skills and situations. Doesn't change the fact that popular modern games are now adopting second chance mechanics, that is the point. A game like cod:mw also has down state, gulag, and buy back teammate, down state isn't required when they have the other two options in the game.

The main offender is groups being able to fast res and my suggestion out of this is to make ressing 1:1, take it, leave it, I don't care, I can play this game just fine with or without down state.

Y'all can go back to your useless arguing.

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