NO Downstate should STAY permanently. - [Merged]

[AikijinX.6258]

@God.2708 said:

@"AikijinX.6258" said:Before this thread gets closed, if it does, I will chime in with my 2 quick 2 cents.

-Keep Downstate in PvE-Keep Downstate in PvP-Remove Downstate in WvW

We all know Anet cater's to the Majority, which are casual low/average skill cap players.But just once, I would like the voices of players who actually took time to learn their class's/game mechanics to have their voices heard, listened to and validated.

Crutches like downstate to save the day when an ally comes around and you need help being saved by a better Player, Roaming Group, Zerg, etc, about to stomp you is deplorable. Refusal to learn your class mechanics is your fault. But that's not enough because then you feel so justified and validated when crying on the forums because the MAJORITY of people playing and talking on these forums venting their frustrations are casuals, so their ideas and thought patterns align with yours, which makes you feel less alienated and alone.

It's nauseating to say the least because the Majority of people (Casuals) are what Anet is always going to focus on, listen to, and cater for, because that's where the money funnels in from.

I hate to say it, but it can all be summed up to a (Learn2Play) issue.

It can indeed.

Learn to finish downstates.

See? To easy. This argument keeps getting brought up and it's not an actual rational argument. There is absolutely NOTHING that indicates a player utilizing downstate is worse or better than a player who doesn't. Point blank. For all you know they're utilizing a build made to maximize the benefits of downstate and their friends and that's the only reason you're putting them in downstate, and if you were to 1v1 them no downstate they'd slap your kitten in.

What? Did you read what you said?

You said "There's nothing that indicates a downed player utilizing downstate being a bad player?"

So in what scenario are you trying to argue for? 1v1, Group roaming situation, zerg?

• Well the good player wouldn't be downed. Now would they? (1v1 scenario)
• The group that is the better roaming group wouldn't be down, nor would need to utilize downstate abilities
• The zerg that is better comped also wouldn't need to utilize downstate, reason being they would have correct builds and synergies, and would be on discord following commander or sub group leader.

Utilizing a build made to "maximize the benefits of downstate?"

-lol

If I were to "1v1 them (no down state) they'd slap my kitten in"

-Is this specifically directed at me sir? Because..lol

[God.2708]

@"AikijinX.6258" said:

What? Did you read what you said?

You said "There's nothing that indicates a downed player utilizing downstate being bad player?"

So in what scenario are you trying to argue for? 1v1, Group roaming situation, zerg?

• Well the good player wouldn't be downed. Now would they? (1v1 scenario)
• The group that is the better roaming group wouldn't be down, nor need to utilize downstates
• The zerg that is better comped also wouldn't need to utilize downstate, reason being they would have correct builds and synergies, and would be on discord following commander or sub group leader.

Utilizing a build made to "maximize the benefits of downstate?"

-lol

If I were to "1v1 them (no down state) they'd slap my kitten in"

-Is this specifically directed at me sir? Because..lol

Downstate doesn't (or shouldn't) play a factor in pure 1v1's. Been brought up multiple times. I'll clarify that I was not talking about those situations though. Talking about... well, anything XvY where X and Y don't both equal 1.

The group that is better roaming or zerging could be downed. I don't get why people don't understand this. Playing full glass because you know there is downstate and allies to pick you up is a perfectly viable strategy, and even the optimal one -gasp-. You are calling them bad because they are playing the game better than you. That's all there is to it. Wanting the game to change to cater to you so you can win is loser's logic.

If you get rid of downstate, player takes more defensive skills/stats. You no longer are capable of cheesing them 'dead'. You come on the forums whining about trailblazer's or whatever else ruined your 'fun' instead. Cycle continues.

[AikijinX.6258]

@God.2708 said:

@"AikijinX.6258" said:

What? Did you read what you said?

You said "There's nothing that indicates a downed player utilizing downstate being bad player?"

So in what scenario are you trying to argue for? 1v1, Group roaming situation, zerg?

• Well the good player wouldn't be downed. Now would they? (1v1 scenario)
• The group that is the better roaming group wouldn't be down, nor need to utilize downstates
• The zerg that is better comped also wouldn't need to utilize downstate, reason being they would have correct builds and synergies, and would be on discord following commander or sub group leader.

Utilizing a build made to "maximize the benefits of downstate?"

-lol

If I were to "1v1 them (no down state) they'd slap my kitten in"

-Is this specifically directed at me sir? Because..lol

Downstate doesn't (or shouldn't) play a factor in pure 1v1's. Been brought up multiple times. I'll clarify that I was not talking about those situations though. Talking about... well, anything XvY where X and Y don't both equal 1.

The group that is better roaming or zerging could be downed. I don't get why people don't understand this. Playing full glass because you know there is downstate and allies to pick you up is a perfectly viable strategy, and even the optimal one -gasp-. You are calling them bad because they are playing the game better than you. That's all there is to it. Wanting the game to change to cater to you so you can win is loser's logic.

If you get rid of downstate, player takes more defensive skills/stats. You no longer are capable of cheesing them 'dead'. You come on the forums whining about trailblazer's or whatever else ruined your 'fun' instead. Cycle continues.

I'm confused.

Are you for or against the removal of downstate, You're arguing with yourself here.

[JTGuevara.9018]

I'm sorry, but no downed state has been nothing short of a breath of fresh air. For once,there was an actual CHECK on the pip-farming boon-ball squads that dominate on a weekly basis. Unfortunately, that ends tomorrow night... :'(

[Dawdler.8521]

@"AikijinX.6258" said:So in what scenario are you trying to argue for? 1v1, Group roaming situation, zerg?

• Well the good player wouldn't be downed. Now would they? (1v1 scenario)
• The group that is the better roaming group wouldn't be down, nor would need to utilize downstate abilities
• The zerg that is better comped also wouldn't need to utilize downstate, reason being they would have correct builds and synergies, and would be on discord following commander or sub group leader.Ah yes, that perfect world where nobody ever dies because they're just that good.

If downed state is permanently removed we're just going to have 80 vs 80 zergs standing there going "what are we going to do!? We cant fight them, they're too good to die!". Then the best and brightest step forward and proclaim "dont worry, I'll fight them!" And as he gets instantly killed the game crashes, the servers explode, the server room is set ablaze and Amazon goes bankrupt, the world implodes and everything everywhere goes dark.

Because the good player never dies and the universe cant handle it.

[Thornwolf.9721]

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Antioche.7034 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@"Hannelore.8153" said:Why are you all so obsessed with these things? Why don't you like fighting?

The secret is they

don't like fighting. They only like winning.

And no downstate week allows winning with the most kitten one shot builds by sniping into zerg tails. This week is gankers dream.

No downstate week should only be permanent if you mean to kill WvW as thoroughly as they already killed the PvP ESports dream.

1. There are a TON of people in wvw this week, hate to break it too you bud.

That's far more due to the 100% Wxp buff than the event. Most non roamer WvW players I have talked to are already bored of the event, simply because it removes a ton of strategy and depth of combat. Some people care about good and fun fights with back and forth, and not just the wxp pop when something dies after the one push.

As far as actual engagements, it mostly benefits the roaming cloud getting some free kills, smaller organized groups getting some kills before dying to a far larger blob (though it is nice when you wipe the blob with half the numbers, hardly an accomplishment though with the disparity in players skill, which was present before), people grouping up even more or otherwise just hiding behind T3 objectives with tons of ACs. Big fun, yes...

If you want to balance the game mode around the roamers and upper echelon of the player base, that's exactly who you are going to be left with: some roamers and a few "good" players in a dead game mode.

Exactly this, people are here because of WvW booster, because almost everybody hates farming GoB for legendaries, so they can use this week to spend less time in WvW.

Then again, make a way to obtain gift of battle in PvE I dont know shove it in raids/strikes. Idc either because nothing will get me to play those modes (raids more so than strikes). Dont force people to play modes they dislike, let them play the part of the game they enjoy and if that means they dont touch the other parts then so be it... thats what player choice is all about.

^

This has been an ongoing battle/debate between WvW'ers, PvP'ers and PvE'ers. I cant see Anet changing anything as they want people to try everything they made/offer and use that to lock certain elements behind.

Yes but there are those who Loathe competitive anything and WILL NOT DO IT and there are those who loathe PvE and will not do it. They will not bend, as a company you will make more money giving the customer what they want rather than being stubborn.. As I said Ill never do raids again. Most everything in there does not exist to me, because I dont want to deal with that end of the community (Worst raiding expierence I've ever had of any game I've ever played. And I Mythic raided in WoW, which isn't actually saying anything but still. ) Point is, Id appreciate if some of those "cosmetics" such as weapons and special skins were put into reward tracks so I could obtain them while having fun and not being forced to not have fun just to obtain them. Am I upset ? No. I get why it is as it is. But gift of battle is required for legendary weps which is a different beast, put it in strikes/raids and keep us separated. Clearly the sub-communities are having issues co-existing and honestly.... its time to face the facts... a pure PvE player likely wont ever like the game mode... so stop trying to make them.

[AikijinX.6258]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"AikijinX.6258" said:So in what scenario are you trying to argue for? 1v1, Group roaming situation, zerg?

• Well the good player wouldn't be downed. Now would they? (1v1 scenario)
• The group that is the better roaming group wouldn't be down, nor would need to utilize downstate abilities
• The zerg that is better comped also wouldn't need to utilize downstate, reason being they would have correct builds and synergies, and would be on discord following commander or sub group leader.Ah yes, that perfect world where nobody ever dies because they're just
  that good
  .

If downed state is permanently removed we're just going to have 80 vs 80 zergs standing there going "what are we going to do!? We cant fight them, they're too good to die!". Then the best and brightest step forward and proclaim "dont worry, I'll fight them!" And as he gets instantly killed the game crashes, the servers explode, the server room is set ablaze and Amazon goes bankrupt, the world implodes and everything everywhere goes dark.

Because the good player never dies and the universe cant handle it.

Lol, nice sarcasm.

You're obviously part of the majority pool I was talking about. I've got nothing further to say to you.

[Thornwolf.9721]

@"AikijinX.6258" said:Before this thread gets closed, if it does, I will chime in with my 2 quick 2 cents.

-Keep Downstate in PvE-Keep Downstate in PvP-Remove Downstate in WvW

We all know Anet cater's to the Majority, which are casual low/average skill cap players.But just once, I would like the voices of players who actually took time to learn their class's/game mechanics to have their voices heard, listened to and validated.

Crutches like downstate to save the day when an ally comes around and you need help being saved by a better Player, Roaming Group, Zerg, etc, about to stomp you is deplorable. Refusal to learn your class mechanics is your fault. But that's not enough because then you feel so justified and validated when crying on the forums because the MAJORITY of people playing and talking on these forums venting their frustrations are casuals, so their ideas and thought patterns align with yours, which makes you feel less alienated and alone.

It's nauseating to say the least because the Majority of people (Casuals) are what Anet is always going to focus on, listen to, and cater for, because that's where the money funnels in from.

I hate to say it, but it can all be summed up to a (Learn2Play) issue.

I actually dont think the majority are the "Casuals" which are the issue here my friend. I believe its the PvE crowd who hate PvP and WvW so much that they want it gone because they cant stand that it exists. (They do infact exist out there, met one just today who got mad because I jumped on them to save an objective. Got cursed out to high heck and back about how toxic I was for killing them.) So I see it like this, the original crew of guild wars had aspirations for E-sports with PvP and it flopped because of their UNWILLINGNESS to balance the game. (Or even try) So when that died so did A-nets care for PvP. (We saw how little they cared when the Icebrood saga was announced.) WvW has NEVER gotten love, because its only there to draw RvR players who had no where to go after Warhammer online and other RvR titles failed.

But the PvE crowd will never be satiated as they want constant content cadence, not all casuals are bad. I consider myself casual because I dont do all Acheivo's I dont have every legendary and likely never will because honestly most of them are pretty meh. ( I am working on those I do like.) The point is that the term casual is thrown around, its more like entitled. Entitled players who are the same vocal minority who create an echo chamber saying X is bad and Y is good even though the fact that they laid people off and gave the "We may, or may not be going bankrupt speech" has happened in the last year. As well their earnings have gone up as they've put love into the other game modes outside of PvE along with the saga being decent (its reception was luke-warm..) I don't believe that every player would be opposed to no-downstate forever in WvW and I dont think that they hate WvW I think we have a ton of vocal people screaming into the void, trying to shout down ANY ideas that could make WvW truly great merely because its not a PvE exclusive game mode.

Yet.... WvW and PvP both likely on their own are more played than raids? And maybe even strikes. I know for a fact WvW is, easy no contest likely larger than both of those and you best believe server transfers make a ton of money for A-net on re-link. PvP maybe not... but idk.... hard to say really. A-net really needs to close the back door and prevent hacking or mods of any-kind, and just needs to give these modes attention.... this canthan expansion is likely to be it as Cantha was the same thing for guild wars 1. It was a PvE expansion as well but its primary focus was updating and adding too competitive which put competitive in the beloved place that to THIS DAY is talked about by those who played it.

[Shiyo.3578]

@Baldrick.8967 said:No downstate week= all those lovely groups of 2/3 thiefs, add a mesmer and maybe a ranger going around ganking or picking off players one by one, with no counterplay for most classes at all. Rooted, stunned, instant 6 'skill' macros times 3,,,what's not to like watching players be picked off?

Great fun!

Speeds up the death of wvw just a little bit more. Enjoy the cheese.

Having downed state does nothing to fix this. Stop blaming lack of downed state for builds being overpowered.

Nerf the meme builds.

[Shiyo.3578]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:Agreed, downed state has no place in WvW. It's great and adds tons of depth to SPvP and PvE but in WvW all it does is benefit lesser skilled players zerging and outnumbering.I remain somewhat confused how people keep claiming it can be "great and add tons of depth to sPvP" when that is identical to a large part of WvW, ie roaming/smallscale.

Is zerging the definition of WvW now?

I guess it is. No downed state week reveals the true colors.

SPvP is 5vs5. WvW is ??? vs ???There's no ~5v5 in WvW?No 2v3?No 3v2?No 2v2?No 4v3?No 3v5?No 3v3?No 6v6?

Ok clearly that last part is WAY the top and classify as WvW. The rest dont according to people.

The PvP instance is capped to 5vs5. Someone can't randomly join the game mid fight and make it 6vs5. In WvW this constantly happens.

[Doug.4930]

The pro downstate crowd pretty much only have one viable argument:

"Players who have more time to play this game shouldn't be allowed to win outnumbered fights because my 10 friends and I don't have enough time to put into this game so that we can beat the group of 5 that do."

I mean I completely disagree with this argument but its the best you've got. Its pretty much a known fact that downstate favours the larger group, whether that's a 2v4 or a 50v60. But the argument remains that downstate affords the larger and less experienced groups of players a greater advantage of overcoming their more veteran enemies.

I can understand that. A group of 15 is far more vulnerable to a group of 5 when downstate is not a factor, and I'd imagine the group of 15 who only play this game every other day and have about 1k hours clocked between all of them is going to get very frustrated constantly getting farmed by a group of 5 who have 6k hours of WvW playtime each. Frustrated enough to perhaps stop coming back and log off.

I'm still very much anti downstate, but playing devils advocate I can see the above as a legitimate con to downstate being removed. Despite the pro's being a more fair and balanced game where player skill and synergy means more than simply blobbing down the enemy. And if this game could do with anything its less blobs.

[ledernierrempart.6871]

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@Baldrick.8967 said:No downstate week= all those lovely groups of 2/3 thiefs, add a mesmer and maybe a ranger going around ganking or picking off players one by one, with no counterplay for most classes at all. Rooted, stunned, instant 6 'skill' macros times 3,,,what's not to like watching players be picked off?

Great fun!

Speeds up the death of wvw just a little bit more. Enjoy the cheese.

Having downed state does nothing to fix this. Stop blaming lack of downed state for builds being overpowered.

Nerf the meme builds.

î would even say that, thanks to no downstate, the thief or mesmer you kill is dead instead of getting revived while made invisible by his mates.

[SWI.4127]

@"Doug.4930" said:The pro downstate crowd pretty much only have one viable argument:

"Players who have more time to play this game shouldn't be allowed to win outnumbered fights because my 10 friends and I don't have enough time to put into this game so that we can beat the group of 5 that do."

What about the argument that removal of downstate makes group fights completely one-dimensional and encourages even more pirate-shipping? It's straight up bad for group fights, which is the main focus of the game mode and the way in which the majority of its players play the game. Ruining group fights is the fastest way to kill WvW. Good thing Anet has more sense than to actually listen to this circle-kitten of "omg the ONLY reason someone would like downstate is becuz they get carried!! only GOOD players like no-downstate!".

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Antioche.7034 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@"Hannelore.8153" said:Why are you all so obsessed with these things? Why don't you like fighting?

The secret is they

don't like fighting. They only like winning.

And no downstate week allows winning with the most kitten one shot builds by sniping into zerg tails. This week is gankers dream.

No downstate week should only be permanent if you mean to kill WvW as thoroughly as they already killed the PvP ESports dream.

1. There are a TON of people in wvw this week, hate to break it too you bud.

That's far more due to the 100% Wxp buff than the event. Most non roamer WvW players I have talked to are already bored of the event, simply because it removes a ton of strategy and depth of combat. Some people care about good and fun fights with back and forth, and not just the wxp pop when something dies after the one push.

As far as actual engagements, it mostly benefits the roaming cloud getting some free kills, smaller organized groups getting some kills before dying to a far larger blob (though it is nice when you wipe the blob with half the numbers, hardly an accomplishment though with the disparity in players skill, which was present before), people grouping up even more or otherwise just hiding behind T3 objectives with tons of ACs. Big fun, yes...

If you want to balance the game mode around the roamers and upper echelon of the player base, that's exactly who you are going to be left with: some roamers and a few "good" players in a dead game mode.

Exactly this, people are here because of WvW booster, because almost everybody hates farming GoB for legendaries, so they can use this week to spend less time in WvW.

Then again, make a way to obtain gift of battle in PvE I dont know shove it in raids/strikes. Idc either because nothing will get me to play those modes (raids more so than strikes). Dont force people to play modes they dislike, let them play the part of the game they enjoy and if that means they dont touch the other parts then so be it... thats what player choice is all about.

^

This has been an ongoing battle/debate between WvW'ers, PvP'ers and PvE'ers. I cant see Anet changing anything as they want people to try everything they made/offer and use that to lock certain elements behind.

Yes but there are those who Loathe competitive anything and WILL NOT DO IT and there are those who loathe PvE and will not do it. They will not bend, as a company you will make more money giving the customer what they want rather than being stubborn.. As I said Ill never do raids again. Most everything in there does not exist to me, because I dont want to deal with that end of the community (Worst raiding expierence I've ever had of any game I've ever played. And I Mythic raided in WoW, which isn't actually saying anything but still. ) Point is, Id appreciate if some of those "cosmetics" such as weapons and special skins were put into reward tracks so I could obtain them while having fun and not being forced to not have fun just to obtain them. Am I upset ? No. I get why it is as it is. But gift of battle is required for legendary weps which is a different beast, put it in strikes/raids and keep us separated. Clearly the sub-communities are having issues co-existing and honestly.... its time to face the facts... a pure PvE player likely wont ever like the game mode... so stop trying to make them.

Hey, If I can get GoE's NOT doing PvE then im game xD

[ledernierrempart.6871]

@SWI.4127 said:

@"Doug.4930" said:The pro downstate crowd pretty much only have one viable argument:

"Players who have more time to play this game shouldn't be allowed to win outnumbered fights because my 10 friends and I don't have enough time to put into this game so that we can beat the group of 5 that do."

What about the argument that removal of downstate makes group fights completely one-dimensional and encourages even more pirate-shipping? It's straight up bad for group fights, which is the main focus of the game mode and the way in which the majority of its players play the game. Ruining group fights is the fastest way to kill WvW. Good thing Anet has more sense than to actually listen to this circle-kitten of "omg the ONLY reason someone would like downstate is becuz they get carried!! only GOOD players like no-downstate!".

i don't get it. going in melee in a bus vs bus fight and getting downed often mean death. what is the difference? also keep in mind that if no downstate become a permanent thing revive spells will get reworked too. imagine being able to revive the dead instead of the downed?

also it is normal that we instinctively prefer what advantage us. a bus player will prefer dowstate because it increase his survivability. a roamer will prefer no downstate because it enable him to play vs outnumbered. a duelist will cry but obsidian sanctuary exist. anet could leave downstate on this map and even create 1v1 tournament event there.(why not?).

it doesn't encourage pirateship, it just make players scared to die. because they know they wont get instantly revived by a rally bot.you can also say that it is a lack of self sacrifice mindset. if 5 melee dies while giving the opportunity to win the engagement it is worth it. atm players play for themselves. they fear death and are not willing to charge.personnaly i hate battles of attrition. and that's exactly what most bus fight are (outside of this event). but funny enough, when 2 large bus collide the fight ends in a few seconds anyway, with downstate or not. no downstate just fasten everything but the same problems occurs. at least now we can see better what's op and what's not.because previously, a pewpew ranger would down you for nothing because you would get revived anyway. now you need to pay attention to your surrounding because anyone can be a potential threat.

about onedimensional fights, it always has been. usually the first group to lose players will lose the engagement. now you can have a potential comeback because rallybot doesn't exist and revive support build don't work.the thing with outnumbered being possible now more than ever, is that if your bus gets halved you can still be a threat. with downstate you can just TP back to base and regroup.

[Thornwolf.9721]

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Antioche.7034 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@"Hannelore.8153" said:Why are you all so obsessed with these things? Why don't you like fighting?

The secret is they

don't like fighting. They only like winning.

And no downstate week allows winning with the most kitten one shot builds by sniping into zerg tails. This week is gankers dream.

No downstate week should only be permanent if you mean to kill WvW as thoroughly as they already killed the PvP ESports dream.

1. There are a TON of people in wvw this week, hate to break it too you bud.

That's far more due to the 100% Wxp buff than the event. Most non roamer WvW players I have talked to are already bored of the event, simply because it removes a ton of strategy and depth of combat. Some people care about good and fun fights with back and forth, and not just the wxp pop when something dies after the one push.

As far as actual engagements, it mostly benefits the roaming cloud getting some free kills, smaller organized groups getting some kills before dying to a far larger blob (though it is nice when you wipe the blob with half the numbers, hardly an accomplishment though with the disparity in players skill, which was present before), people grouping up even more or otherwise just hiding behind T3 objectives with tons of ACs. Big fun, yes...

If you want to balance the game mode around the roamers and upper echelon of the player base, that's exactly who you are going to be left with: some roamers and a few "good" players in a dead game mode.

Exactly this, people are here because of WvW booster, because almost everybody hates farming GoB for legendaries, so they can use this week to spend less time in WvW.

Then again, make a way to obtain gift of battle in PvE I dont know shove it in raids/strikes. Idc either because nothing will get me to play those modes (raids more so than strikes). Dont force people to play modes they dislike, let them play the part of the game they enjoy and if that means they dont touch the other parts then so be it... thats what player choice is all about.

^

This has been an ongoing battle/debate between WvW'ers, PvP'ers and PvE'ers. I cant see Anet changing anything as they want people to try everything they made/offer and use that to lock certain elements behind.

Yes but there are those who Loathe competitive anything and WILL NOT DO IT and there are those who loathe PvE and will not do it. They will not bend, as a company you will make more money giving the customer what they want rather than being stubborn.. As I said Ill never do raids again. Most everything in there does not exist to me, because I dont want to deal with that end of the community (Worst raiding expierence I've ever had of any game I've ever played. And I Mythic raided in WoW, which isn't actually saying anything but still. ) Point is, Id appreciate if some of those "cosmetics" such as weapons and special skins were put into reward tracks so I could obtain them while having fun and not being forced to not have fun just to obtain them. Am I upset ? No. I get why it is as it is. But gift of battle is required for legendary weps which is a different beast, put it in strikes/raids and keep us separated. Clearly the sub-communities are having issues co-existing and honestly.... its time to face the facts... a pure PvE player likely wont ever like the game mode... so stop trying to make them.

Hey, If I can get GoE's NOT doing PvE then im game xD

Right! Id love that. Id never have to waste my time grinding in a game mode I honestly find boring and they'd never have to deal with "PvPeRs WhO GaNk Reeeee!!!" so we could just all go our own way! What a concept. Its like the two will never co-exist peacefully, then they could gauge what type of players are the dominant who actually play the game and have the hard numbers. Forcing players to cross into other modes they dislike, is like games from back when forcing you to do mini-games that by design were meant to remind you how bad you are just to frustrate you. Make raid wing reward tracks, that give LI and give out those cosmetics and make it so infusions and so on can drop outta them too! I am 100% behind this, so go ahead have GoB in raids and strikes. Even trade.

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

@"Doug.4930" said:The pro downstate crowd pretty much only have one viable argument:

"Players who have more time to play this game shouldn't be allowed to win outnumbered fights because my 10 friends and I don't have enough time to put into this game so that we can beat the group of 5 that do."

I mean I completely disagree with this argument but its the best you've got. Its pretty much a known fact that downstate favours the larger group, whether that's a 2v4 or a 50v60. But the argument remains that downstate affords the larger and less experienced groups of players a greater advantage of overcoming their more veteran enemies.

I can understand that. A group of 15 is far more vulnerable to a group of 5 when downstate is not a factor, and I'd imagine the group of 15 who only play this game every other day and have about 1k hours clocked between all of them is going to get very frustrated constantly getting farmed by a group of 5 who have 6k hours of WvW playtime each. Frustrated enough to perhaps stop coming back and log off.

I'm still very much anti downstate, but playing devils advocate I can see the above as a legitimate con to downstate being removed. Despite the pro's being a more fair and balanced game where player skill and synergy means more than simply blobbing down the enemy. And if this game could do with anything its less blobs.

The OP's concern is mainly from poor decision making when engaging/disengaging in Outnumbered Situations. He literally starts with "Nothing more egregious, frustrating, enraging than fighing outnumbered..." then flavors it towards a game mechanic. In this instance, that game mechanic happens to be Downstate but could be replaced with Boons, heals, stealth, etc. Most of any game mechanic can be multiplied by greater numbers really. Even supply! Omg.

We'll ignore that "nerf this" threads sometimes don't contain videos for better context. If your goal is to make a balance pass, then why would you start with mixed situations (AKA...X vs. Y + X)? Fluidity of numbers involved is going to happen in the wide open world of WvW compared to Spvp. If the problem is a population issue well...fiddling with downstate won't balance the players on the team but I hear there is some mysterious update that supposedly fixes population issues (probably won't QQ). Attempting to make a change for the X vs. X + Y is more than likely going to affect the X vs. X situations.

As far as I can tell nothing new (in regards to arguments) has been said in this downstate thread that hasn't already been mentioned in previous ones. Let's see if the forums search function is useful. Doubtful. Found some! Omg, I was so hyperbolic back then too: BadOutnumberedPremise. CasualGameMode. GameMechanicsDiscourse. I wonder if I still hold some of those views?

Now. If you wanted to homogenize all the downstate class skills that's something discus-sable (funny sounding lol). If you wanted to add more anti-downstate mechanics that's also discuses-able such as more %Damage on downs for sigils, runes, items, traits, w.e.. Too bad some people wanted mount stomp gone.

D:

[Sobx.1758]

@GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

@"Doug.4930" said:The pro downstate crowd pretty much only have one viable argument:

"Players who have more time to play this game shouldn't be allowed to win outnumbered fights because my 10 friends and I don't have enough time to put into this game so that we can beat the group of 5 that do."

I mean I completely disagree with this argument but its the best you've got. Its pretty much a known fact that downstate favours the larger group, whether that's a 2v4 or a 50v60. But the argument remains that downstate affords the larger and less experienced groups of players a greater advantage of overcoming their more veteran enemies.

I can understand that. A group of 15 is far more vulnerable to a group of 5 when downstate is not a factor, and I'd imagine the group of 15 who only play this game every other day and have about 1k hours clocked between all of them is going to get very frustrated constantly getting farmed by a group of 5 who have 6k hours of WvW playtime each. Frustrated enough to perhaps stop coming back and log off.

I'm still very much anti downstate, but playing devils advocate I can see the above as a legitimate con to downstate being removed. Despite the pro's being a more fair and balanced game where player skill and synergy means more than simply blobbing down the enemy. And if this game could do with anything its less blobs.

BadOutnumberedPremise

.

You seem(ed?) to think that the argument there was "outnumbering side has the advantage!" and you answer to that "of course, that's because they are outnumbering!", but the actual point is that the downstate additionally helps the outnumbering side (because it does). They are stronger because of the numbers and the downstate adds them an even bigger safety net in case they start failing. If that somehow isn't a valid argument for you, then I'm not sure what you'd consider a valid argument for any discussion ever.

Defending a mechanic that pushes further already mismatched fights just because "they're already mismatched!" is some weird counteargument attempt.

People wanted mount stomp gone for a similar reason, because the outnumbering side can afford to delegate some of their players to stay mounted and still have close fights, but this time they could easaly insta-stomp multiple targets, pushing the number difference even further.

[Doug.4930]

@SWI.4127 said:

@"Doug.4930" said:The pro downstate crowd pretty much only have one viable argument:

"Players who have more time to play this game shouldn't be allowed to win outnumbered fights because my 10 friends and I don't have enough time to put into this game so that we can beat the group of 5 that do."

What about the argument that removal of downstate makes group fights completely one-dimensional and encourages even more pirate-shipping? It's straight up bad for group fights, which is the main focus of the game mode and the way in which the majority of its players play the game. Ruining group fights is the fastest way to kill WvW.

It adds no dimensions. It exists as a carry for less experienced players. That's it. Anyone who has any experience fighting outnumbered is aware of this. So I assume your only experience with downstate is from within your blob.

Group fights this week have been absolutely incredible. Being able to 5v15 has been nothing short of WvW heaven. Let me fix your quote for you:

"Ruining group fights by making it harder for me to blob people is the fastest way to kill WvW"

Good thing Anet has more sense than to actually listen to this circle-kitten of "omg the ONLY reason someone would like downstate is becuz they get carried!! only GOOD players like no-downstate!".

Hopefully they will because that pretty much hits the nail on the head.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

@"Doug.4930" said:The pro downstate crowd pretty much only have one viable argument:

"Players who have more time to play this game shouldn't be allowed to win outnumbered fights because my 10 friends and I don't have enough time to put into this game so that we can beat the group of 5 that do."

I mean I completely disagree with this argument but its the best you've got. Its pretty much a known fact that downstate favours the larger group, whether that's a 2v4 or a 50v60. But the argument remains that downstate affords the larger and less experienced groups of players a greater advantage of overcoming their more veteran enemies.

I can understand that. A group of 15 is far more vulnerable to a group of 5 when downstate is not a factor, and I'd imagine the group of 15 who only play this game every other day and have about 1k hours clocked between all of them is going to get very frustrated constantly getting farmed by a group of 5 who have 6k hours of WvW playtime each. Frustrated enough to perhaps stop coming back and log off.

I'm still very much anti downstate, but playing devils advocate I can see the above as a legitimate con to downstate being removed. Despite the pro's being a more fair and balanced game where player skill and synergy means more than simply blobbing down the enemy. And if this game could do with anything its less blobs.

BadOutnumberedPremise

.

You seem(ed?) to think that the argument there was "outnumbering side has the advantage!" and you answer to that "of course, that's because they are outnumbering!", but the actual point is that the downstate additionally helps the outnumbering side (because it does). They are stronger because of the numbers

and

the downstate adds them an even bigger safety net in case they start failing. If that somehow isn't a valid argument for you, then I'm not sure what you'd consider a valid argument for any discussion ever.No downed state also helps the outnumbering side because they are stronger due to numbers

and

the enemy cannot weigh that up by sustain with good ressing or the enemy failing to finish them.

WvW fights is always more than just idiots vs pros so it's an argument for both sides. Valid I suppose.

Here's the simple truth about my experiences this week - I've won lots of fights that I'm pretty certain I would have lost with downed state.But here's another simple truth - I would have fought every fight regardless and it would just have been more challenging and required more skill with downed state.

[Sobx.1758]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

@"Doug.4930" said:The pro downstate crowd pretty much only have one viable argument:

"Players who have more time to play this game shouldn't be allowed to win outnumbered fights because my 10 friends and I don't have enough time to put into this game so that we can beat the group of 5 that do."

I mean I completely disagree with this argument but its the best you've got. Its pretty much a known fact that downstate favours the larger group, whether that's a 2v4 or a 50v60. But the argument remains that downstate affords the larger and less experienced groups of players a greater advantage of overcoming their more veteran enemies.

I can understand that. A group of 15 is far more vulnerable to a group of 5 when downstate is not a factor, and I'd imagine the group of 15 who only play this game every other day and have about 1k hours clocked between all of them is going to get very frustrated constantly getting farmed by a group of 5 who have 6k hours of WvW playtime each. Frustrated enough to perhaps stop coming back and log off.

I'm still very much anti downstate, but playing devils advocate I can see the above as a legitimate con to downstate being removed. Despite the pro's being a more fair and balanced game where player skill and synergy means more than simply blobbing down the enemy. And if this game could do with anything its less blobs.

BadOutnumberedPremise

.

You seem(ed?) to think that the argument there was "outnumbering side has the advantage!" and you answer to that "of course, that's because they are outnumbering!", but the actual point is that the downstate additionally helps the outnumbering side (because it does). They are stronger because of the numbers

and

the downstate adds them an even bigger safety net in case they start failing. If that somehow isn't a valid argument for you, then I'm not sure what you'd consider a valid argument for any discussion ever.No downed state also helps the outnumbering side because they are stronger due to numbers

and

the enemy cannot weigh that up by sustain with good ressing or the enemy failing to finish them.

They can start shaving outnumbering zerg from slackers and mis-positioned poeple, while with downstate all they achieve is... someone pressing F and picking up the scrub. So no, I have to disagree.

WvW fights is always more than just idiots vs pros so it's an argument for both sides. Valid I suppose.

It is more than that, but pretty sure that doesn't change what I said. In fact I was writing that with similarly ""able"" groups in mind, where the main difference are numbers.

Here's the simple truth about my experiences this week - I've won lots of fights that I'm pretty certain I would have lost with downed state.

That's great (or not, I don't know?), but that tells me nothing. What fights? How would you lose them and why did you win them? Vids? Screens? Examples?I'm not dismissing what you said here, it's just that it's a bit too vague for me to understand as an argument.

But here's another simple truth - I would have fought every fight regardless and it would just have been more challenging and required more skill with downed state.

....would it though? So when you get someone to downed state (I assume you're talking mostly about some roaming 1v1s?), it adds a great dose of challenge to finish the fight when you're still up? That's not usually the case for me.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Sobx.1758 said:....would it though? So when you get someone to downed state (I assume you're talking mostly about some roaming 1v1s?), it adds a great dose of challenge to finish the fight when you're still up? That's not usually the case for me.Why on earth would I be talking about 1v1? I'm talking about 1v2, 1v3, 1v4, 2v5, 3v5 etc.

And also if that's not usually the case for you... get good?

See how the argument just stuck in an endless loop?

And no matter what argument people make for deleting downstate, I'm not sure what the end goal is because you're either preaching to the choir or you're arguing that you will never meet people in the middle against people that are willing to meet you in the middle.

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

@"Doug.4930" said:The pro downstate crowd pretty much only have one viable argument:

"Players who have more time to play this game shouldn't be allowed to win outnumbered fights because my 10 friends and I don't have enough time to put into this game so that we can beat the group of 5 that do."

I mean I completely disagree with this argument but its the best you've got. Its pretty much a known fact that downstate favours the larger group, whether that's a 2v4 or a 50v60. But the argument remains that downstate affords the larger and less experienced groups of players a greater advantage of overcoming their more veteran enemies.

I can understand that. A group of 15 is far more vulnerable to a group of 5 when downstate is not a factor, and I'd imagine the group of 15 who only play this game every other day and have about 1k hours clocked between all of them is going to get very frustrated constantly getting farmed by a group of 5 who have 6k hours of WvW playtime each. Frustrated enough to perhaps stop coming back and log off.

I'm still very much anti downstate, but playing devils advocate I can see the above as a legitimate con to downstate being removed. Despite the pro's being a more fair and balanced game where player skill and synergy means more than simply blobbing down the enemy. And if this game could do with anything its less blobs.

BadOutnumberedPremise

.

You seem(ed?) to think that the argument there was "outnumbering side has the advantage!" and you answer to that "of course, that's because they are outnumbering!", but the actual point is that the downstate additionally helps the outnumbering side (because it does). They are stronger because of the numbers

and

the downstate adds them an even bigger safety net in case they start failing. If that somehow isn't a valid argument for you, then I'm not sure what you'd consider a valid argument for any discussion ever.

Defending a mechanic that pushes further already mismatched fights just because "they're already mismatched!" is some weird counteargument attempt.

From what I recall skimming that past post and condensing the bickering: it was an observation of numbers multiplying the amount of available game mechanics for each team (thus the larger gets advantage on everything). So I suspect I felt it wasn't sufficient to make a combat balance change (e.g. changing downstate in that case) solely on that reason. The downstate posts of today also sometimes state being outnumbered as their primary factor (e.g. Doug provides unbalanced scenarios despite playing "Devil's Advocate" and starting out on a weird straw-man of "pro downstate crowd"). Doug brings up skill or timed playing the game, and the third or second link addresses what "skill" the different downstate settings affect. Pretty sure it would be the third link? Possibly. Ultimately he is able to make the same observation of multiplication (e.g. more game mechanics are able to be more utilized by the larger group).

In short, I wouldn't make sweeping balance changes (this means downstate too) based on that single factor of population imbalance (outnumbered being a symptom of it). Just as I wouldn't increase AC damage because someone is X v X+ Y at a Tower during some population imbalance period. The other two links were more productive by the looks of it. Perhaps you might find more detailed answers there?

People wanted mount stomp gone for a similar reason, because the outnumbering side can afford to delegate some of their players to stay mounted and still have close fights, but this time they could easaly insta-stomp multiple targets, pushing the number difference even further.

I liked using that mount stomp by porting away to break combat then come back to stomp for the lewls. RIP. The random massive critical damage on mounts was silly though.

D:

[Kylden Ar.3724]

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

î would even say that, thanks to no downstate, the thief or mesmer you kill donwed is dead instead of getting revived while made invisible by his mates.

FTFY.

By the mechanics of the game, Downed <> Dead. Dead is when you confirm the kill, so learn to safe stomp, cleave downs quickly, and PREVENT the rez.

If you can't stop invisible revives, you are not carrying enough cleave and AOE for a mass combat mode.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Antioche.7034 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@"Hannelore.8153" said:Why are you all so obsessed with these things? Why don't you like fighting?

The secret is they

don't like fighting. They only like winning.

And no downstate week allows winning with the most kitten one shot builds by sniping into zerg tails. This week is gankers dream.

No downstate week should only be permanent if you mean to kill WvW as thoroughly as they already killed the PvP ESports dream.

1. There are a TON of people in wvw this week, hate to break it too you bud.

That's far more due to the 100% Wxp buff than the event. Most non roamer WvW players I have talked to are already bored of the event, simply because it removes a ton of strategy and depth of combat. Some people care about good and fun fights with back and forth, and not just the wxp pop when something dies after the one push.

As far as actual engagements, it mostly benefits the roaming cloud getting some free kills, smaller organized groups getting some kills before dying to a far larger blob (though it is nice when you wipe the blob with half the numbers, hardly an accomplishment though with the disparity in players skill, which was present before), people grouping up even more or otherwise just hiding behind T3 objectives with tons of ACs. Big fun, yes...

If you want to balance the game mode around the roamers and upper echelon of the player base, that's exactly who you are going to be left with: some roamers and a few "good" players in a dead game mode.

Exactly this, people are here because of WvW booster, because almost everybody hates farming GoB for legendaries, so they can use this week to spend less time in WvW.

Then again, make a way to obtain gift of battle in PvE I dont know shove it in raids/strikes. Idc either because nothing will get me to play those modes (raids more so than strikes). Dont force people to play modes they dislike, let them play the part of the game they enjoy and if that means they dont touch the other parts then so be it... thats what player choice is all about.

^

This has been an ongoing battle/debate between WvW'ers, PvP'ers and PvE'ers. I cant see Anet changing anything as they want people to try everything they made/offer and use that to lock certain elements behind.

Yes but there are those who Loathe competitive anything and WILL NOT DO IT and there are those who loathe PvE and will not do it. They will not bend, as a company you will make more money giving the customer what they want rather than being stubborn.. As I said Ill never do raids again. Most everything in there does not exist to me, because I dont want to deal with that end of the community (Worst raiding expierence I've ever had of any game I've ever played. And I Mythic raided in WoW, which isn't actually saying anything but still. ) Point is, Id appreciate if some of those "cosmetics" such as weapons and special skins were put into reward tracks so I could obtain them while having fun and not being forced to not have fun just to obtain them. Am I upset ? No. I get why it is as it is. But gift of battle is required for legendary weps which is a different beast, put it in strikes/raids and keep us separated. Clearly the sub-communities are having issues co-existing and honestly.... its time to face the facts... a pure PvE player likely wont ever like the game mode... so stop trying to make them.

Hey, If I can get GoE's NOT doing PvE then im game xD

Getting Gift of Exploration from completing all five WvW maps sounds reasonable. Its not as time consuming as map completing PvE, but the overall difficulty is much higher especially on maps like EoTM and Desert BL, so I think it evens out.

I've always been in favor of full separation of game modes, but I doubt the devs will ever do it.