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I was just curious what people who regularly run various organized PvE content successfully consider reasonable benchmarks in various contexts? Obviously, there are the places like snowcrows you can see the ceiling, but what if we're just talking ordinary players who can get the job done but aren't setting records. What sort of range would you say you look for in a DPS class in raids, fractals, strikes?

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Honestly it really varies person by person.. you can clearly see that in the comments of this thread. I've literally been in groups where 2 players will end up arguing over anothers DPS because they d

You'll clear everything with about 10k DPS. Though, even that's hard for inexperienced players to reach.

Experienced players tend to do about 20k with good gear, builds and full rotations, due to actual encounters being more unpredictable than golems. Sometimes more, sometimes less. It depends on alot of factors. For example, condi builds have a lower sustained DPS than power builds but leave more room for mistakes, i.e you lose less DPS from having to dodge, revive allies, etc.

Most of the core game like dungeons were meant to be cleared by about 4-5k DPS, since that was the ceiling back then.

All content except raids can be cleared in white gear. Raids can be cleared in green gear. That should tell you a bit about the DPS required, most of PvE revolves around having the right classes, builds and following mechanics, not dealing massive damage. The only reason you need greens for raids is because there is the enrage timer to deal with, otherwise they could be cleared in whites too.

As long as you're in Exotc/Ascended, have at least two damage stats on every piece of gear, and know how to follow a basic rotation (e.g remember that you can swap weapons instead of camping just one), you're probably going to be fine.

(Only one damage stat is acceptible for supports, i.e Harrier's, Cleric's, Magi's..).

The golden rule is to recognise what cost you DPS and avoid those situations. For example, if you're trying to max DPS too much you might get downed alot, which then costs you and your group DPS, so its better to not get downed than to do +5k DPS.

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@Hannelore.8153 said:Most of the core game like dungeons were meant to be cleared by about 4-5k DPS, since that was the ceiling back then.

Nope, you can clear dungeon with 500 dps just fine (You'll have one hell of a hard time but it's doable on most paths).The ceiling was way higher than 4-5K dps back then. Elementalist was the ceiling and it hurted a lot more than it does now thanks to frostbow and firefield that stacked on themselves to hit quite a few time per second when used against a wall. The speed group were dropping bosses in less than 20 seconds afterall.

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@"AliamRationem.5172" said:I was just curious what people who regularly run various organized PvE content successfully consider reasonable benchmarks in various contexts? Obviously, there are the places like snowcrows you can see the ceiling, but what if we're just talking ordinary players who can get the job done but aren't setting records. What sort of range would you say you look for in a DPS class in raids, fractals, strikes?

can't really just set a number like this. the "problem" is, depending on the strategy you run, boss phases / split phases take longer or shorter and depending on that the numbers already change a lot for the whole encounter.example: a valeguardian run with mid strat tanking phases a lot faster then a run wich tanks at the edge of the arena. on edge strat vg always needs to run to the tank and on phase he runs back into the middle. takes quite some time. even in the splitphase you can loose or win time on splitting or pulling together the adds depending on your group performance.

so, alone from that you can take away that a group which does midstrat can be lacking quite some more damage. on the other hand, it is more dangerous if done with less damage, as you might need to entangle the seekers more then a single time with less damage...a group which can't handle that will wipe a lot faster in this regard since there is less room to make mistakes.that also applys to all bosses. less damage means more mechanics, means more potential to fail. ofc that also can be offset with taking certain roles into your group to handle mechanics more efficiently...or handle group failes with more ease and group recovery.

...you can just set a certain number for you on the golem (for example, 85% of the bench) or check the logs after a raid and see if you did "everything right" on your part. most of time you have to include the context of the fight. ofc you can say something like, okay vg has 22 million health and a enrage timer of 8 min so you need at least 45,8k group dps or 4,5k personal dps....but in the end that does not include split phases, running arround like mad becaues no damage and all the mechanics have to be handled else you die fast.

if you want a little tipp: at least practice you opening rotation like mad. imagine you are at samarog and you can reset your rotation to always doing your perfect opening after a cc bar on a power class. you would be golden in terms of dps without knowing the rest of the "45 steps" you have to do on the golem. ofc thats not the case on all bosses, but often a good opener is already half the boss....especially in fractals that is totally true. i mean you can check some of the speedruns. on the first boss of 100 cm people often get 2 to 5 skills out and then the boss phases already. thats what boons and a fast breakbar often do in fractals and people misjudge so hard. there are videos where rangers literally press axe 4 + 5 and then the boss phases already....thats not a hard thing to do in the end. the setup for that is whats "hard". players not instantly breaking for example for whatever reason.

so, when it comes to setting a benchmark for yourself when training this is something i would advice to someone who wants to be more lax:

  • try to reach the first number close. a bad opening translates automatically to bad dps. always, just how it works. your opening rotation / burst rotation is important.just train it over and over again until this works out with no problems. its not that hard to train, as you can just get a golem and reset your skills after each opening. at some point check how good it is with a freshly spawned one. if its bad, try to find out why. most often the reason is: too slow.
  • for the end number, take away 1k to 2k for stat infusions if you do not have them. then try to just set yourself a goal. lets say you train power banner warrior with 33k. set it just to 27k and see if you can hit that number. if you can and the rotation seems fine for you go and enjoy some content....then before you do content again with your guild just train half an hour before that and see if you can reach that 27k again or maybe even progress on it.

the most important thing in the end is then translation from golem to the encounter. firstly: not needing to think about your rotation and secondly: where does it make sense to interrupt the rotation and start it from new to hit that burst. be it because of some splitphase or because you are out of rotation and kind of need to "reset it" so you can get back into it.with time the whole thing will just come naturally. you shouldn't ask yourself: whats enough dps for laidback stuff. just see how far you want to go yourself and if your teammates are the ones which you really want to play with. if all are on the same page, thats the best in the end.

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It all depends on how well your dps translates from golem to bosses and how badly the build suffers from stuff like skill desyncronization from mechs and lacking alacrity uptime. Kitty personally pulls slightly above normal pug tier even with builds she benches to 20k on mechanical bosses due to playing cleaner and greedier than most but at bosses like MO, 24k+ golem dps is pretty recommended to pull your own weight in average squad. 30k golem dps already outperforms most of pugs and 35k+ is outdpsing pretty much everyone by huge margin if you can pull the rota off at actual bosses. At bosses where melee uptime is 80%-esque due to timed bombs and such, build with strong ranged option performs as well as 20% higher benching option which it especially noticeable at Matt and melee Deimos. Shortbow-only renegade and soulbeast and p/p deadeye as a couple examples.

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From my experience (PUG runs):Strike missions: most players do 8-12k.Raids: It's something about 14-16k.Fractals: I don't know. I rarely play fractals, but DPS there is a lie (too many damage modifiers). All you need to do in fractals, is just burst. Nothing more. Sadly, there are people who can only burst.Of course it is "score" showing your total damage done divided by time in combat (whole encounter).You should know, that your DPS depends on support. Weak support = less DPS. Dealing with mechanics, reviving players and dodging also can lower your damage.

I would say, if you can do 25k dps on a golem — it's OK.

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I would say minimum is - 12k: solo, 30k: group content. Those are minimums that any dps class is capable of doing with little effort..If you are completely alone you should aim above 10k for dps, if you are not getting more than that you have bad gear, bad build or you should work on your rotations. Try getting a build that sustains might and other offensive boons.. Internet will help.

In group content however it is very different depending on enemy and your team. But if all boons are covered and enemy boss got vulnerability etc. you should aim for more than 30k bursts and around 20k dps.

Fractals are a lil different as many said above, it is more about bursting during the "exposed" debuff and there is also cleaving that is a whole another story. In fractals every boss is different so can't answer that and it may vary a lot from one team comp to another. But normally in tier 4 fractals dps players are expected to do at least 20k dps burst. If somebody is doing less than 20k burst in a firebrigade comp means he is getting carried...

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@Naxos.2503 said:My opinion ? Go to the golem, dont use food, dont use other buffs than what you yourself can create. If you reach 9k with -nothing else- than your rotation, you're good to go.

I think using realistic buffs and conditions would be better to compare the dps for group-content, as some classes can buff themself much better with their meta-dps-builds or don't rely on group buffs as much as others.Even without buffs, etc. 9k sounds a bit low. I don't know the unbuffed benchmarks of all classes, but at least for some, this may even be <50%. This may not be enough, at least for the standard of a bunch of raid- and cm-groups.

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@Schimmi.6872 said:

@"Naxos.2503" said:My opinion ? Go to the golem, dont use food, dont use other buffs than what you yourself can create. If you reach 9k with -nothing else- than your rotation, you're good to go.

I think using realistic buffs and conditions would be better to compare the dps for group-content, as some classes can buff themself much better with their meta-dps-builds or don't rely on group buffs as much as others.Even without buffs, etc. 9k sounds a bit low. I don't know the unbuffed benchmarks of all classes, but at least for some, this may even be <50%. This may not be enough, at least for the standard of a bunch of raid- and cm-groups.

Arguably, that comes from a primarily condi Holo. The issue with benchmarks is that most of the time, those put on display are "ideal conditions" benchmarks, where you have more boons than you will realistically have, and thus the end damage is trumped. It's not really your damage, so much as your damage within a larger group than you'll get, if there are no human errors and interruptions (there will be, in both cases). 9k is a good -starting- point I would say. With time you learn to refine your rotation, and learn it bit by bit making less and less mistake, having less of a gap time between skill switch/weapon switch. Usually by then, your 9k becomes 13k or so with the same conditions. But personally, it took a couple of raids for me to get above 9k and start using my rotation properly.

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@"Armen.1483" said:I would say minimum is - 12k: solo, 30k: group content. Those are minimums that any dps class is capable of doing with little effort..If you are completely alone you should aim above 10k for dps, if you are not getting more than that you have bad gear, bad build or you should work on your rotations. Try getting a build that sustains might and other offensive boons.. Internet will help.

In group content however it is very different depending on enemy and your team. But if all boons are covered and enemy boss got vulnerability etc. you should aim for more than 30k bursts and around 20k dps.

Fractals are a lil different as many said above, it is more about bursting during the "exposed" debuff and there is also cleaving that is a whole another story. In fractals every boss is different so can't answer that and it may vary a lot from one team comp to another. But normally in tier 4 fractals dps players are expected to do at least 20k dps burst. If somebody is doing less than 20k burst in a firebrigade comp means he is getting carried...

People over inflate numbers because of peer pressure and playing the 'win the meters' game. A rough example of what dps is needed is as follows:

EHP of boss / (length of fight before enrage - no dps time - safety margin)/ number of dps players. i.e It is sub 10k outside of raids.

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@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@"Armen.1483" said:I would say minimum is - 12k: solo, 30k: group content. Those are minimums that any dps class is capable of doing with little effort..If you are completely alone you should aim above 10k for dps, if you are not getting more than that you have bad gear, bad build or you should work on your rotations. Try getting a build that sustains might and other offensive boons.. Internet will help.

In group content however it is very different depending on enemy and your team. But if all boons are covered and enemy boss got vulnerability etc. you should aim for more than 30k bursts and around 20k dps.

Fractals are a lil different as many said above, it is more about bursting during the "exposed" debuff and there is also cleaving that is a whole another story. In fractals every boss is different so can't answer that and it may vary a lot from one team comp to another. But normally in tier 4 fractals dps players are expected to do at least 20k dps burst. If somebody is doing less than 20k burst in a firebrigade comp means he is getting carried...

People over inflate numbers because of peer pressure and playing the 'win the meters' game. A rough example of what dps is needed is as follows:

EHP of boss / (length of fight before enrage - no dps time - safety margin)/ number of dps players. i.e It is sub 10k outside of raids.

Except those that raid typically don’t want to fight each boss for the entire timer. A player with personal DPS close to that level will experience issues getting and staying in groups.

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@"AliamRationem.5172" said:I was just curious what people who regularly run various organized PvE content successfully consider reasonable benchmarks in various contexts? Obviously, there are the places like snowcrows you can see the ceiling, but what if we're just talking ordinary players who can get the job done but aren't setting records. What sort of range would you say you look for in a DPS class in raids, fractals, strikes?

What you should aim for if you do not plan on tryharding the content is 80% of benchmark DPS (Bench from Snowcrows), and decent application of the rotation on the actual encounter.

If you want to make "Good" DPS, around 90% benchmark is the minimum.

Getting 80% of the benchmark DPS isn't hard at all, it's incredibly easy with MAXIMUM a few hours of training at the golem, don't be impressed. You'll make it easely if you put a modicum of effort into it !

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@"Armen.1483" said:I would say minimum is - 12k: solo, 30k: group content. Those are minimums that any dps class is capable of doing with little effort..If you are completely alone you should aim above 10k for dps, if you are not getting more than that you have bad gear, bad build or you should work on your rotations. Try getting a build that sustains might and other offensive boons.. Internet will help.

In group content however it is very different depending on enemy and your team. But if all boons are covered and enemy boss got vulnerability etc. you should aim for more than 30k bursts and around 20k dps.

Fractals are a lil different as many said above, it is more about bursting during the "exposed" debuff and there is also cleaving that is a whole another story. In fractals every boss is different so can't answer that and it may vary a lot from one team comp to another. But normally in tier 4 fractals dps players are expected to do at least 20k dps burst. If somebody is doing less than 20k burst in a firebrigade comp means he is getting carried...

People over inflate numbers because of peer pressure and playing the 'win the meters' game. A rough example of what dps is needed is as follows:

EHP of boss / (length of fight before enrage - no dps time - safety margin)/ number of dps players. i.e It is sub 10k outside of raids.

Except those that raid typically don’t want to fight each boss for the entire timer. A player with personal DPS close to that level will experience issues getting and staying in groups.

yeah, as i said EHP of boss / (length of fight before enrage - no dps time - safety margin)/ number of dps players. i.e It is sub 10k outside of raids.

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Honestly it really varies person by person.. you can clearly see that in the comments of this thread.

I've literally been in groups where 2 players will end up arguing over anothers DPS because they disagree on what is acceptable DPS numbers lolThat is just funny as hell to me since I don't give a damn how much or how little dps you're putting out in most content, all content can be beaten with less than optimal DPS numbers anyway so don't stress about it too much.Someone even said raids can be beaten in masterwork gear.. that I found especially amusing lol, would love to see a video on that XD

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@Teratus.2859 said:Honestly it really varies person by person.. you can clearly see that in the comments of this thread.

I've literally been in groups where 2 players will end up arguing over anothers DPS because they disagree on what is acceptable DPS numbers lolThat is just funny as hell to me since I don't give a kitten how much or how little dps you're putting out in most content, all content can be beaten with less than optimal DPS numbers anyway so don't stress about it too much.Someone even said raids can be beaten in masterwork gear.. that I found especially amusing lol, would love to see a video on that XD

I don't really raid but I have solo videos against HoT champions using 80 green gear, 60-65 green/blue, and 55 blue gear. I can still manage 10k self-buffed in carrion gear, so I imagine raiding in better stats and full buffed would work out fine.

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@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@"Armen.1483" said:I would say minimum is - 12k: solo, 30k: group content. Those are minimums that any dps class is capable of doing with little effort..If you are completely alone you should aim above 10k for dps, if you are not getting more than that you have bad gear, bad build or you should work on your rotations. Try getting a build that sustains might and other offensive boons.. Internet will help.

In group content however it is very different depending on enemy and your team. But if all boons are covered and enemy boss got vulnerability etc. you should aim for more than 30k bursts and around 20k dps.

Fractals are a lil different as many said above, it is more about bursting during the "exposed" debuff and there is also cleaving that is a whole another story. In fractals every boss is different so can't answer that and it may vary a lot from one team comp to another. But normally in tier 4 fractals dps players are expected to do at least 20k dps burst. If somebody is doing less than 20k burst in a firebrigade comp means he is getting carried...

People over inflate numbers because of peer pressure and playing the 'win the meters' game. A rough example of what dps is needed is as follows:

EHP of boss / (length of fight before enrage - no dps time - safety margin)/ number of dps players. i.e It is sub 10k outside of raids.

Except those that raid typically don’t want to fight each boss for the entire timer. A player with personal DPS close to that level will experience issues getting and staying in groups.

yeah, as i said EHP of boss / (length of fight before enrage - no dps time
- safety margin
)/ number of dps players. i.e It is sub 10k
outside of raids.

Well that safety margin is set by raiders who want quick and efficient runs (not necessarily saying speed runs) so you bringing up that formula doesn’t counter argument of the poster that you had quoted. If groups prefer at least 20k DPS then the safety margin would be the difference between that and the minimum DPS.

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