They nerf stability/dmg on most...but engis get permastab and grenades..why?

[Supreme.3164]

Like there is no open channel with the devs seemingly because they consider any interaction with the community ...a rather unpleasant experience which is understandable but then again I ask myself if the behavior of the community can actually be justified , some decisions from Anet are rather questionable in the sense they lack integrity .

Changes which were supposed to be global end up being exclusive to some professions while others are purposefully left out of the loop for a reason or another that in the end of the days don't seem very fair to me.

Why has the following trait been left out from the Feb patch?https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Juggernaut

It's basically perma stability and I don't see how that fix with the idea of reducing stability in game..on integrity, this trait is definitely due some necessary changes : permastability +25 might by simply pressing the auto-attack , I could present this trait at a game developer convention and they would surely ask what the folks at Anet are doing.

One class get perma stability by pressing the auto-attack..another get stability only from a single utility on a 60s CD https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Armor_of_Earth and a trait sitting at 300s CD doing the same

There is already plenty of talk about grenades so....

If a dev get to read the message...do you think that the community frustration is really that unjustified?

[Zephoid.4263]

Flamethrower gives perma stab, but TWO stacks of might (1/3s, 6s duration) and awful damage. Getting 25 while using a flamethrower is hard. Trading damage for stab seems fine to me, especially since the toolkit flamethrower skill is awful.

Grenades... yeah, can't argue with that one. Damage is too high and toolbar skill is absurd.

[Chaith.8256]

@"Supreme.3164" said:

in the sense they lack integrity .

Obviously we will see nerfs queued up to Explosives and Holosmith traits

Juggernaut probably goes untouched, why?

• To the masses, the only fact worth considering is: "spam #1, perma stability & many might stacks!". Rarely do people consider that you can ONLY spam flamethrower skills to maintain this, and you gotta dedicate two mediocre traitlines to do so. Trapped behind an enormous paywall of opportunity cost compared to the best builds. However if you are a new player who plays at a slower pace, spamming FT #1 might not seem like the lackluster way to apply pressure to competent enemies that it is, and stability lowers risk. It's a low risk low reward build, if you nerf it, you won't affect any of the engineers who are actually smacking kids right now, just the learners. Will ArenaNet nerf firearms and FT? Press X to doubt

[Supreme.3164]

@Chaith.8256 said:@"Supreme.3164" said:

in the sense they lack

integrity

.

Obviously we will see nerfs queued up to Explosives and Holosmith traits

Juggernaut probably goes untouched, why?

• To the masses, the only fact worth considering is: "spam #1, perma stability & many might stacks!". Rarely do people consider that you can ONLY spam flamethrower skills to maintain this, and you gotta dedicate two mediocre traitlines to do so. Trapped behind an enormous paywall of opportunity cost compared to the best builds. However if you are a new player who plays at a slower pace, spamming FT #1 might not seem like the lackluster way to apply pressure to competent enemies that it is, and stability lowers risk. It's a low risk low reward build, if you nerf it, you won't affect any of the engineers who are actually smacking kids right now, just the learners. Will ArenaNet nerf firearms and FT? Press F to doubt

From your point of view then I think it'd be reasonable to adjust the auto-attack of flamethrower , with all considered it simply does too much , it should either apply burning or do direct dmg and increase burning dmg of rest of the skill. In the hands of a decent player that "press 1" build appears to be far too rewarding especially in a group setting.

At the very least we should remove the burning from the auto-attack or leave the burning and remove the direct dmg.

[UNOwen.7132]

Ah yes. Grenades. Such a huge problem that the recent Monthly AT had 2 Engineers in the finals and ... 0 grenades. Huh.

[Supreme.3164]

@UNOwen.7132 said:Ah yes. Grenades. Such a huge problem that the recent Monthly AT had 2 Engineers in the finals and ... 0 grenades. Huh.

Don't you think that the combination of nades and mortar can be..a tad ( not really much ) problematic? We can all agree on the burst nature of grenades and we should leave that and we can leave mortar as it is but..a small reduction in dmg would not hurt anybody here, just something in line with the reduction in sustain for other professions

[Dantheman.3589]

@Supreme.3164 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:@Supreme.3164 said:

in the sense they lack

integrity

.

Obviously we will see nerfs queued up to Explosives and Holosmith traits

Juggernaut probably goes untouched, why?

• To the masses, the only fact worth considering is: "spam #1, perma stability & many might stacks!". Rarely do people consider that you can ONLY spam flamethrower skills to maintain this, and you gotta dedicate two mediocre traitlines to do so. Trapped behind an enormous paywall of opportunity cost compared to the best builds. However if you are a new player who plays at a slower pace, spamming FT #1 might not seem like the lackluster way to apply pressure to competent enemies that it is, and stability lowers risk. It's a low risk low reward build, if you nerf it, you won't affect any of the engineers who are actually smacking kids right now, just the learners. Will ArenaNet nerf firearms and FT? Press F to doubt

From your point of view then I think it'd be reasonable to adjust the

auto-attack of flamethrower

, with all considered it simply does too much , it should either apply burning or do direct dmg and increase burning dmg of rest of the skill. In the hands of a decent player that "press 1" build appears to be far too rewarding especially in a group setting.

At the very least we should remove the burning from the auto-attack or leave the burning and remove the direct dmg.

I haven’t seen any decent players use flame thrower not in solo or team settings and I don’t think they would consider it

[Supreme.3164]

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@Supreme.3164 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:@Supreme.3164 said:

in the sense they lack

integrity

.

Obviously we will see nerfs queued up to Explosives and Holosmith traits

Juggernaut probably goes untouched, why?

• To the masses, the only fact worth considering is: "spam #1, perma stability & many might stacks!". Rarely do people consider that you can ONLY spam flamethrower skills to maintain this, and you gotta dedicate two mediocre traitlines to do so. Trapped behind an enormous paywall of opportunity cost compared to the best builds. However if you are a new player who plays at a slower pace, spamming FT #1 might not seem like the lackluster way to apply pressure to competent enemies that it is, and stability lowers risk. It's a low risk low reward build, if you nerf it, you won't affect any of the engineers who are actually smacking kids right now, just the learners. Will ArenaNet nerf firearms and FT? Press F to doubt

From your point of view then I think it'd be reasonable to adjust the

auto-attack of flamethrower

, with all considered it simply does too much , it should either apply burning or do direct dmg and increase burning dmg of rest of the skill. In the hands of a decent player that "press 1" build appears to be far too rewarding especially in a group setting.

At the very least we should remove the burning from the auto-attack or leave the burning and remove the direct dmg.

I haven’t seen any decent players use flame thrower not in solo or team settings and I don’t think they would consider it

Many builds never get used by players during tournaments...they still get nerfed regardless, we had many examples in the past about that so don't know why this argument still stand. There are many situations, different gamemodes where Flamethrower becomes problematic.

The low skill requirement is not the issue here...it's the rather big reward it gives , a little support or peeling and a flamethrower build becomes far too rewarding for just pressing 1 button most of the time

[Dantheman.3589]

@Supreme.3164 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@Supreme.3164 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:@Supreme.3164 said:

in the sense they lack

integrity

.

Obviously we will see nerfs queued up to Explosives and Holosmith traits

Juggernaut probably goes untouched, why?

• To the masses, the only fact worth considering is: "spam #1, perma stability & many might stacks!". Rarely do people consider that you can ONLY spam flamethrower skills to maintain this, and you gotta dedicate two mediocre traitlines to do so. Trapped behind an enormous paywall of opportunity cost compared to the best builds. However if you are a new player who plays at a slower pace, spamming FT #1 might not seem like the lackluster way to apply pressure to competent enemies that it is, and stability lowers risk. It's a low risk low reward build, if you nerf it, you won't affect any of the engineers who are actually smacking kids right now, just the learners. Will ArenaNet nerf firearms and FT? Press F to doubt

From your point of view then I think it'd be reasonable to adjust the

auto-attack of flamethrower

, with all considered it simply does too much , it should either apply burning or do direct dmg and increase burning dmg of rest of the skill. In the hands of a decent player that "press 1" build appears to be far too rewarding especially in a group setting.

At the very least we should remove the burning from the auto-attack or leave the burning and remove the direct dmg.

I haven’t seen any decent players use flame thrower not in solo or team settings and I don’t think they would consider it

Many builds never get used by players during tournaments...they still get nerfed regardless, we had many examples in the past about that so don't know why this argument still stand. There are many situations, different gamemodes where Flamethrower becomes problematic.

The low skill requirement is not the issue here...it's the rather big reward it gives , a little support or peeling and a flamethrower build becomes far too rewarding for just pressing 1 button most of the time

It would be countered by even ezier builds like symbol core guardian. I think the problem is just scrapper is a great side noder rn. Like I said it can be countered by like core guard or core ranger fairly ezily, but with the build ppl play, not flamethrower btw, they can do a lot more different stuff with less investment to do it, which is the only reason ppl aren’t taking ranger or core guard in mats though they could if they chose to

[Kodama.6453]

They didn't change juggernaut, because that trait was underperforming for basically it's entire existence.

Yes, it grants perma stability. So what? The weaknesses of flamethrower are so obvious and easily exploited that juggernaut never was and most likely never will be problematic.That is the reason why it can keep this feature that has defined the trait since game launch. The kit is easily countered, listen to the people telling you how it is countered and apply that knowledge.

Grenades were overperforming, but it is not like Anet didn't nerf them in the last time.

[Neeklahs.3064]

Getting 1 stability every 3 sec isn't permastab, you can just corrupt or cc to remove it, that isnt the case with Armor of Earth, that gives you instant 10 stacks.Also the FT auto attack is the only damage skill from FT ,this discussion is just Dumb.

[Neeklahs.3064]

why people complain about Flamethrower? is the easiest kit to counter, just move, also is bug as fuck if you move above or below the flames never gone hit you cuz the skills are bug. thats why most engineers plays grenades, bombs or mortar, elixir, hammer or the most popular "photonforge goes brrrrr".

[Eugchriss.2046]

@Neeklahs.3064 said:Getting 1 stability every 3 sec isn't permastab, you can just corrupt or cc to remove it, that isnt the case with Armor of Earth, that gives you instant 10 stacks.Also the FT auto attack is the only damage skill from FT ,this discussion is just Dumb.Getting 1 stack stabilty for 3 secs every 3 secs is actually perma stab.

[Neeklahs.3064]

@Eugchriss.2046 said:Getting 1 stack stabilty for 3 secs every 3 secs is actually perma stab.it is just 1 stack, just 1 cc or corrupt and the stab is gone, most of the classes have more than enough time to nuke a FT engi, just make your skill rotations and dont smash keys like a braindead.

[Eugchriss.2046]

@Neeklahs.3064 said:

@Eugchriss.2046 said:Getting 1 stack stabilty

for 3 secs every 3 secs

is actually perma stab.it is just 1 stack, just 1 cc or corrupt and the stab is gone, most of the classes have more than enough time to nuke a FT engi, just make your skill rotations and dont smash keys like a braindead.It's not just 1 stack.

It' is 1 stack lasting 3 seconds every 3 seconds.

Which means you have a 3 secs window to double CC him or corrupt + CC. If you miss that window, just forget about CC him.You are (on purpose?) forgetting the frequency factor.

[Kodama.6453]

@Eugchriss.2046 said:

@Neeklahs.3064 said:

@Eugchriss.2046 said:Getting 1 stack stabilty

for 3 secs every 3 secs

is actually perma stab.it is just 1 stack, just 1 cc or corrupt and the stab is gone, most of the classes have more than enough time to nuke a FT engi, just make your skill rotations and dont smash keys like a braindead.It's not just 1 stack.

It' is 1 stack lasting 3 seconds every 3 seconds.

Which means you have a 3 secs window to double CC him or corrupt + CC. If you miss that window, just forget about CC him.You are (on purpose?) forgetting the frequency factor.

It is perma stab. It is still not problematic because of that.As you mention, you can double CC them in that time frame. Flamethrower also has alot of other counterplay available. Like using terrain (since flamethrower won't hit you if you are under/above), retaliation......

[Neeklahs.3064]

@Eugchriss.2046 said:It's not just 1 stack. It' is 1 stack lasting 3 seconds every 3 seconds. Which means you have a 3 secs window to double CC him or corrupt + CC. If you miss that window, just forget about CC him.You are (on purpose?) forgetting the frequency factor.

FT engi is hard only if you play low dps cc based build and you dont double cc them or dont burst them, if youre talking about scrapper FT is basically an skirmish bunker, if you fight them on group they gone gain more sustains cuz barriers, but they are easy to kill if you are a damage dealer and burst them. After all FT engis are only god at stand and still, FT do pretty low damage, the numbers you se is the cumulative damage on total and not damage per tick, i can't deny that there exist some crazy player who can make you white FT engi, but that's a skill gap not the build.

[Neeklahs.3064]

@Kodama.6453 said:since flamethrower won't hit you if you are under/aboveI've always wondered if that's a bug or if the flamethrower is supposed to work that way, because even aiming with action camera you can't hit what's slightly below or above you on a hill.

[wasss.1208]

There is actually an another topic going on with the exact same discussion, you can get all the counter-arguments already by checking over there:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/111685/flamethrower-dps-too-high-and-gives-perma-stab#latest

Also I assume it is easier for the devs to get the feedback if they don't have to collect it from two threads. I wouldn't be surprised if these two get merged.

[Eugchriss.2046]

I am not saying that FT is overperforming. I m just saying that juggernauts design is toxic. It s the same toxicity that the actual nade holo have with his 20+might. You can corrupt/remove the might but the thing is their might regeneration is way higher than your ability to corrupt/remove.It's also the same toxicity conid rev had with resistance. You could corrupt/remove it, but the frequency of reapplication just kicked that solution out.

[mrindustrial.1853]

@"> @Eugchriss.2046 said:I am not saying that FT is overperforming. I m just saying that juggernauts design is toxic. It s the same toxicity that the actual nade holo have with his 20+might. You can corrupt/remove the might but the thing is their might regeneration is way higher than your ability to corrupt/remove.It's also the same toxicity conid rev had with resistance. You could corrupt/remove it, but the frequency of reapplication just kicked that solution out.

That just what all profession are on this meta. but lucky for you Engineers are the least played class.

[mrindustrial.1853]

anyways FT Engi is the only beginner friendly build, even so you need to manage cd, boons, tools, and those engi shit, but yeah just one kit and no heatbar make it the "easy" engi, but its low risk low reward build. I think this month that kind o builds gain some popularity becouse Vallum make a video abut it, but not everyone can get the same benefit, nor is a build that leaves you in gold 1 if you do not have the hands to play it on full capability.

[Ghos.1326]

@Chaith.8256 said:@"Supreme.3164" said:

in the sense they lack

integrity

.

Obviously we will see nerfs queued up to Explosives and Holosmith traits

Juggernaut probably goes untouched, why?

• To the masses, the only fact worth considering is: "spam #1, perma stability & many might stacks!". Rarely do people consider that you can ONLY spam flamethrower skills to maintain this, and you gotta dedicate two mediocre traitlines to do so. Trapped behind an enormous paywall of opportunity cost compared to the best builds. However if you are a new player who plays at a slower pace, spamming FT #1 might not seem like the lackluster way to apply pressure to competent enemies that it is, and stability lowers risk. It's a low risk low reward build, if you nerf it, you won't affect any of the engineers who are actually smacking kids right now, just the learners. Will ArenaNet nerf firearms and FT? Press X to doubt

This is true. I've tried to explain to many others that when traiting Juggernaut, you have to give up one of the most powerful defensive trait combos in the game: Alchemy + Inventions. You can only take one or the other (unless you run core engineer) and if you run core engi, you sacrifice the extra might gain from Mass Momentum while having stability by not taking Scrapper and if you do take Scrapper, you most definitely want the quickness gain from Applied Force, which means sacrificing the other 2 options which could benefit defensively (not to mention needing to sacrifice System Shocker for that extra defense as well due to taking Mass Momentum).If they seen the build I run and how it gets what it gets, they "may" change their mind about Juggernaut having "perma" stability (it's only perma stability if you're equipped into Flamethrower and it only proccs after 3s and every 3s after that while still remaining in FT).

[Ghos.1326]

@Supreme.3164 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:@Supreme.3164 said:

in the sense they lack

integrity

.

Obviously we will see nerfs queued up to Explosives and Holosmith traits

Juggernaut probably goes untouched, why?

• To the masses, the only fact worth considering is: "spam #1, perma stability & many might stacks!". Rarely do people consider that you can ONLY spam flamethrower skills to maintain this, and you gotta dedicate two mediocre traitlines to do so. Trapped behind an enormous paywall of opportunity cost compared to the best builds. However if you are a new player who plays at a slower pace, spamming FT #1 might not seem like the lackluster way to apply pressure to competent enemies that it is, and stability lowers risk. It's a low risk low reward build, if you nerf it, you won't affect any of the engineers who are actually smacking kids right now, just the learners. Will ArenaNet nerf firearms and FT? Press F to doubt

From your point of view then I think it'd be reasonable to adjust the

auto-attack of flamethrower

, with all considered it simply does too much , it should either apply burning or do direct dmg and increase burning dmg of rest of the skill. In the hands of a decent player that "press 1" build appears to be far too rewarding especially in a group setting.

At the very least we should remove the burning from the auto-attack or leave the burning and remove the direct dmg.

No, if you nerf the FT autos, then the FT can't be played using power and as it is currently, the burns last for too little of time for the burning to be even considered good. Burn guardians can outburn flamethrower engis easily, and more consistently. When a FT scrapper uses power, his only main reliable source of damage comes from the autos. The other skills are only a means of augmenting the autos, and the skill 5 and 3 in the kit are very mediocre defensive abilities. one is a pushback and the other is a blind that you need your enemies to be up close in order to use, and it's only 1 stack of said blind before it heads into a 15s cooldown, used to be 20s.As well, FT scrapper really needs to build heavily into offenses and sacrifice a LOT of defense in order to get those big accumulative damage numbers that you're seeing. They also need to sacrifice a very important defensive trait line combo to gain that damage because you need to take Firearms in order to get Juggernaut. And the benefits of Juggernaut only apply when you equip the flamethrower and hold in it.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Supreme.3164 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:Ah yes. Grenades. Such a huge problem that the recent Monthly AT had 2 Engineers in the finals and ... 0 grenades. Huh.

Don't you think that the combination of nades and mortar can be..a tad ( not really much ) problematic? We can all agree on the burst nature of grenades and we should leave that and we can leave mortar as it is but..a small reduction in dmg would not hurt anybody here, just something in line with the reduction in sustain for other professions

The "small reduction in damage" so far has already hurt core Engineer a lot. It went from "decently viable if low-tier" to "arguably worse than pre-patch".