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Kuunavang and the Voice


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So the teaser trailer is out now showing glimps of Cantha and the return of Kuunavang while hinting her relationship to the Elder Dragons with a mysterious voice talking to her. What do you think this can all mean?! My own speculation is that the Voice is the Deep Sea Dragon and she has been a Good Elder Dragon compared to others that did her best to avoid interacting with the races because she did not want to harm them until current events that force her hand to help the commander, Aurene, and the other races because of what Jormag is about to do.

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@"Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324" said:"The cycle is reborn" at the end of the trailer is a powerful sentence.

I, too, believe Kuunavang is talking with an Elder Dragon, the one known as S(omething).

I suspect it may hint towards many things but the one thing I suspect is part of that meaning is the reveal of how the Cycle began in the first place since that knowledge has been lost for so long with the only beings who have knowledge of the Cycle origins now are the Elder Dragons themselves which everyone we met so far has not been very friendly towards us. Considering if the Voice is the DSD and she may have always been the friendly one, we may finally learn the truth about the Cycle from her.

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What worries me about the expansion title and logo is that it implies that Jormag and Primordus are going to be killed in Icebrood Saga. Unless all three remaining Elder Dragons migrate to Cantha at once.

But what about replacements? Is Anet just going to entirely drop that? Or maybe the mysterious voice is Jormag's/Primordus' replacement?

@EdwinLi.1284 said:My own speculation is that the Voice is the Deep Sea Dragon and she has been a Good Elder Dragon compared to others that did her best to avoid interacting with the races because she did not want to harm them until current events that force her hand to help the commander, Aurene, and the other races because of what Jormag is about to do.

If the DSD was a good Elder Dragon, why did it force out the krait, quaggan, karka, and battle the largos? Or the sailors that are washed ashore after being assaulted by brand new sea monsters that appeared after the DSD woke up (either being the source of said sea monsters, or displaced them into the common sailing routes)? The DSD has not interacted with Central Tyria, but that doesn't mean it hasn't interacted with other races - because it has, and it has acted the same as the other five evil Elder Dragons.

@"Randulf.7614" said:Isn't it Aurene talking to Kunavaang?

It is confirmed via twitter that the second voice is a "mysterious new character" by devs. Though whether this can or cannot include the DSD depends on how they're defining "new character". Never met ever? Never met in GW2? Brand new to lore?

If the former, could be DSD. If the second, could even be Albax or Shiny. If the third, then those three are not candidates at all.

https://twitter.com/kperng/status/1298330909435813888

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Well maybe one of the Gods, but that wouldn't be new unless by the "never seen in GW2" definition. They aren't mortal after all and the return of the one or more of the Gods is something some have speculated before.

Otherwise, it could be this "mother" figure mentioned in that wholly bizarre end scene of Kralkatorrik

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:What worries me about the expansion title and logo is that it implies that Jormag and Primordus are going to be killed in Icebrood Saga. Unless all three remaining Elder Dragons migrate to Cantha at once.Long live the Lich had Joko dying. Titles are misleading. Though I would assume Jormag is going to bite the dust in Icebrood Saga.

@"Randulf.7614" said:Well maybe one of the Gods, but that wouldn't be new unless by the "never seen in GW2" definition. They aren't mortal after all and the return of the one or more of the Gods is something some have speculated before.

Otherwise, it could be this "mother" figure mentioned in that wholly bizarre end scene of KralkatorrikWell we know that there is something up with Lyssa(not saying its her but if it was any of the human gods it would be her), or it could be Kralk's mom yeah.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:What worries me about the expansion title and logo is that it implies that Jormag and Primordus are going to be killed in Icebrood Saga. Unless all three remaining Elder Dragons migrate to Cantha at once.

But what about replacements? Is Anet just going to entirely drop that? Or maybe the mysterious voice is Jormag's/Primordus' replacement?

I am wondering if End of Dragons isnt about Elder Dragons and more about the end of higher Dragons like Glint and Kunnavang etc.

To my knowledge Kunnavang and Albax are the only two non elder dragons left on Tyria.. Glint and Vlast are dead and Aurine has become an Elder now with no offspring of her own nor do we know if she's even capable of creating any.The other Saltspreys were corrupted by the Jade wind so Kunnie and Albax could be the last of their species.. so if they become an Elder Dragon or 2 Elder Dragons then it would technically be the End of Dragons like themThe only dragons then left in the world would be the lesser species like Skyscales and Wyverns..

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@EdwinLi.1284 said:My own speculation is that the Voice is the Deep Sea Dragon and she has been a Good Elder Dragon compared to others that did her best to avoid interacting with the races because she did not want to harm them until current events that force her hand to help the commander, Aurene, and the other races because of what Jormag is about to do.If the DSD was a good Elder Dragon, why did it force out the krait, quaggan, karka, and battle the largos? Or the sailors that are washed ashore after being assaulted by brand new sea monsters that appeared after the DSD woke up (either being the source of said sea monsters, or displaced them into the common sailing routes)? The DSD has not interacted with Central Tyria, but that doesn't mean it hasn't interacted with other races - because it
has
, and it has acted the same as the other five evil Elder Dragons.

As I said it is only speculation and DSD can still be basically the generic evil antagonist we view all Elder dragons as but we have always know little about the DSD until maybe the Cantha expansion. For all we know the push out of those races and appearance of new creatures could have been a accident caused by the introduction to DSD into their ecosystem.

We always assumed DSD is evil because of what others have said about events for their side of the story but we never have been in the areas where those events actually happened thus we never gotten the full picture of the DSD's effects, nature, desires, and reasoning. Only pieces of what happened from the view point of those who were in those places.

We have learned much about the current Elder Dragons because we have always interacted with them and most cases their minions to get a glimps at their reasoning, desires, and views. The DSD on the other hand has little interactions since we have never encountered DSD minions nor gotten a view on what motivations has been implanted into them to get a glimps into the DSD mind.

As I said DSD can still be basically the expect Evil Dragon we all assumed her to be since GW2 began but from recent stories we have seen it is certain Anet is bring up the question of what if there is more about the Elder Dragons than we always assumed ever since events of Kralkatorik.

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As Kralk said about Aurene, "She is the first of her kind." Perhaps Kuunavang or this mysterious Voice will be the next.

Oh and by the way, I'm not counting Jormag or Primordus dead until they actually are. Jormag's motives seem to be in a really weird place right now, and we have no idea what's up with Primordus yet. Let's see how the story develops before jumping to conclusions.

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Either 'end' is the word for a group of dragons or dragon power and the Elder Dragon cycle is ending. The studio put a lot of effort into Glint's plan, I hope they don't just drop it or drop it with only a sentence or two. They are already in the process of letting her plan whither from neglect. I have always had problems with the idea of replacing the current Elder Dragons with new Elder dragons but players have been convinced it will happen because the studio put so much effort into convincing them. Imo, the studio is fumbling the transition and only have an episode or two to do the transition justice. As far as every Tyrian is concerned, we can't kill Jormag without a replacement but the Commander's attitude is fuck yea we will kill them.

I doubt we will see magic end with the end of the Elder dragon cycle. I hope what I have been seeing for a while is true, the death of the old gods births a world where the job of maintaining the All is democratized or where the All is returned to a natural state, uncorrupted by dragons. It would make a great segue into GW3. I just wish I could convince myself the plan isn't the death of the old gods, birth of the one true god.

The logo shows the same dragon locked in a cycle or something similar to the ying-yang symbol. I don't see any connection to Jormag or Primordius.

Unless the studio has embraced right wing ethno-nationalism, Cantha is no longer a xenophobic country, at least not completely. Cantha and its people are portrayed favorably. Perhaps Canthans put away their racial prejudices to face a common threat just as Tyrians did.

As for the mysterious voice, perhaps they are a representative from the 'land of dragons', a clan of high dragons who have remained hidden since the beginning of the Elder Dragon cycle.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:What worries me about the expansion title and logo is that it implies that Jormag and Primordus are going to be killed in Icebrood Saga. Unless all three remaining Elder Dragons migrate to Cantha at once.Long live the Lich had Joko dying. Titles are misleading. Though I would assume Jormag is going to bite the dust in Icebrood Saga.

@"Randulf.7614" said:Well maybe one of the Gods, but that wouldn't be new unless by the "never seen in GW2" definition. They aren't mortal after all and the return of the one or more of the Gods is something some have speculated before.

Otherwise, it could be this "mother" figure mentioned in that wholly bizarre end scene of KralkatorrikWell we know that there is something up with Lyssa(not saying its her but if it was any of the human gods it would be her), or it could be Kralk's mom yeah.

Funny that you say Lyssa. Clearly the entity speaking is female, if we are going strictly by voice, is ancient and immortal, has ties to Cantha. It could be Lyssa speaking to Kuunavang. I noticed an awful lot of purple smoke in that trailer too, with given, how Anet threw in a lot of fire sequences in the Flashpoint trailer for Balthazar’s reveal, might be pointing to Lyssa. Lyssa being a human god does have a soft spot for humans, which could explain why “they need her”.

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The mysterious new character could be Kuunaveng’s champion figure, similar to the commander? Perhaps one uplifted to immortality, or turning down the offer?

That or I assume it is another dragon. I doubt the DSD because they’ve been portrayed so evilly, even within the limited examples we have. Water morphed into horrors in the deep sounds pretty sinister. The only way I could see it working is some sort of orange and blue dragon morality where they felt the need to block off areas of the ocean to protect mortal races, and scaring/fighting them off was the best means in their mind to do it.

I think it’s more likely this could be a child of Kuunaveng though. If Glint could spawn alone, why not she? I was going to say Shiny, but if I consider the writer’s tweet literally I assume it’s someone new to the lore/franchise.

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@"Psientist.6437" said:Either 'end' is the word for a group of dragons or dragon power and the Elder Dragon cycle is ending. The studio put a lot of effort into Glint's plan, I hope they don't just drop it or drop it with only a sentence or two. They are already in the process of letting her plan whither from neglect. I have always had problems with the idea of replacing the current Elder Dragons with new Elder dragons but players have been convinced it will happen because the studio put so much effort into convincing them. Imo, the studio is fumbling the transition and only have an episode or two to do the transition justice. As far as every Tyrian is concerned, we can't kill Jormag without a replacement but the Commander's attitude is kitten yea we will kill them.

I doubt we will see magic end with the end of the Elder dragon cycle. I hope what I have been seeing for a while is true, the death of the old gods births a world where the job of maintaining the All is democratized or where the All is returned to a natural state, uncorrupted by dragons. It would make a great segue into GW3. I just wish I could convince myself the plan isn't the death of the old gods, birth of the one true god.

The logo shows the same dragon locked in a cycle or something similar to the ying-yang symbol. I don't see any connection to Jormag or Primordius.

Unless the studio has embraced right wing ethno-nationalism, Cantha is no longer a xenophobic country, at least not completely. Cantha and its people are portrayed favorably. Perhaps Canthans put away their racial prejudices to face a common threat just as Tyrians did.

As for the mysterious voice, perhaps they are a representative from the 'land of dragons', a clan of high dragons who have remained hidden since the beginning of the Elder Dragon cycle.

I'm confused by what you mean "only have an episode or two to do the transition justice". The devs have said the expansion isn't coming out until 2021 at the earliest, and going by past release schedules of expansions this would be around September, meaning that IceBrood Saga is far from over. It seems they're building up IceBrood Saga to be about 1.5 seasons long like LS1 was.

The next episode is a Vision and after that we'll be getting "an LS1 like event". I'd say we're just over halfway through.

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@"Hannelore.8153" said:The next episode is a Vision and after that we'll be getting "an LS1 like event". I'd say we're just over halfway through.Only thing I recall them saying was that, after episode 4, they wanted to try some S1 like content. We have no confirmation that said content wont be the next Visions-like update.

And, right now, we are just at half way though Icebrood Saga. We still have 4 more main chapter left, and one, possibly two, visions like side updates left.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:What worries me about the expansion title and logo is that it implies that Jormag and Primordus are going to be killed in Icebrood Saga. Unless all three remaining Elder Dragons migrate to Cantha at once.Long live the Lich had Joko dying. Titles are misleading. Though I would assume Jormag is going to bite the dust in Icebrood Saga.There was nothing misleading about Long Live the Lich's title.
!It's an obvious play on words to that phrase that is used in medieval times when a king dies and a new one is crowned - it's often showened to just "long live the king" in literature when a king is about to die. Most popular example:
, or a more recent usage: Godzilla: King of the Monsters,
as Godzilla sneaks up on King Gidorah just before the final death blow is dealt.

There was NOTHING misleading about using a slightly changed common phrase referencing the death of the subject of said phrase.

Those who think it's misleading, merely don't know the source material.

If anything, the title was heavily foreshadowing Aurene gaining Joko's immortality - the lich (Joko) is dead, long live the lich (Aurene)!

@Teratus.2859 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:What worries me about the expansion title and logo is that it implies that Jormag and Primordus are going to be killed in Icebrood Saga. Unless all three remaining Elder Dragons migrate to Cantha at once.

But what about replacements? Is Anet just going to entirely drop that? Or maybe the mysterious voice is Jormag's/Primordus' replacement?

I am wondering if End of Dragons isnt about Elder Dragons and more about the end of higher Dragons like Glint and Kunnavang etc.

To my knowledge Kunnavang and Albax are the only two non elder dragons left on Tyria.. Glint and Vlast are dead and Aurine has become an Elder now with no offspring of her own nor do we know if she's even capable of creating any.The other Saltspreys were corrupted by the Jade wind so Kunnie and Albax could be the last of their species.. so if they become an Elder Dragon or 2 Elder Dragons then it would technically be the End of Dragons like themThe only dragons then left in the world would be the lesser species like Skyscales and Wyverns..

There's an entire species of Saltspray Dragons, Rockhide Dragons, Dragon Mosses, and more in Cantha. The Jade Wind only twisted the Saltspray's minds, but not all of them - some, like Shiny or the unnamed hatchling in the Alliance Battles map, were perfectly sane and helped the mortals that raised them. Suggesting that it only twisted the living Saltsprays at the time, and the younger ones were just warped by the nurtured harshness of their parents.

@Jimbru.6014 said:Oh and by the way, I'm not counting Jormag or Primordus dead until they actually are. Jormag's motives seem to be in a really weird place right now, and we have no idea what's up with Primordus yet. Let's see how the story develops before jumping to conclusions.Indeed, perhaps Primordus will remain forever dormant due to the actions of Jormag and Aurene in Icebrood Saga, rather than killed. Especially since we still need replacements (which seems even more to be the focus of the third expansion).

@"Psientist.6437" said:The studio put a lot of effort into Glint's plan, I hope they don't just drop it or drop it with only a sentence or two. They are already in the process of letting her plan whither from neglect.

Aurene after killing Kralkatorrik:

Aurene: My grandfather's prophecy is fulfilled. My mother's legacy is complete.

I'm sure as far as most people are concerned, this line confirms the whole "Glint's Legacy" plot completed. I mean, not according to Sadizi, but according to Aurene...

Imo, the studio is fumbling the transition and only have an episode or two to do the transition justice.

Not sure what you mean, we're only halfway through Icebrood Saga. That's 4 episodes, with a few intermission releases too.

The logo shows the same dragon locked in a cycle or something similar to the ying-yang symbol. I don't see any connection to Jormag or Primordius.The bottom design is actually different from the top - the nose particularly, but where the "jaw fin" meets the neck is also different.

I agree, no similarity to Jormag or Primordus, rather they look like Saltspray Dragon "jaw fins", making me think Kuunavang and Albax (maybe the DSD if they decide to connect Kuunavang to the DSD after all).

Unless the studio has embraced right wing ethno-nationalism, Cantha is no longer a xenophobic country, at least not completely. Cantha and its people are portrayed favorably. Perhaps Canthans put away their racial prejudices to face a common threat just as Tyrians did.I imagine that they'll still be xenophobic, but not to the point of "we will kill any non-Canthan that tries to enter". I imagine it'd be a "you're not like, but you are tolerated because even if non-human, you are diplomats from a foreign nation and we do not want open war" (unless, of course, open war is what brings us to Cantha - though given the title, I'm doubtful).

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:What worries me about the expansion title and logo is that it implies that Jormag and Primordus are going to be killed in Icebrood Saga. Unless all three remaining Elder Dragons migrate to Cantha at once.Long live the Lich had Joko dying. Titles are misleading. Though I would assume Jormag is going to bite the dust in Icebrood Saga.

@"Randulf.7614" said:Well maybe one of the Gods, but that wouldn't be new unless by the "never seen in GW2" definition. They aren't mortal after all and the return of the one or more of the Gods is something some have speculated before.

Otherwise, it could be this "mother" figure mentioned in that wholly bizarre end scene of KralkatorrikWell we know that there is something up with Lyssa(not saying its her but if it was any of the human gods it would be her), or it could be Kralk's mom yeah.

I think dwayna cuz she had a hand in cantha before giving the emperor power which indirectly caused the jade wind to be so powerful, iirc.

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So after watching the video a few times, here is my analysis:

"They need me" is being said by the MALE voice, talking about how life isn't as meaningful for the humans without the cycle. He's saying "they need me," essentially as a villain saying they are a necessary evil.

It is difficult to distinguish between the two voices at times and I can't help but think this might be intentional. They mentioned a mysterious "new character" but is that to GW2 or Guild Wars in general? Are Kunavang and Albax twins? Because the similarity in voices would make me think the new voice is two siblings talking to each other, Kunavang the female that looks after people, and Albax the one that wants to fulfill the cycle.

The first bit with the giant purple pool (0:08) is very interesting and I'm not sure what that's eluding to. Further on in the video we're lead under Kaening City with green clouds which I assume to represent the affliction. However there are also very obvious spiked SCALED tentacles/tail of somekind. Just look at the second close up, it's obviously scales. (0:22)

So, with the line about building above something that tried to destroy them, I'm really thinking that the deep sea dragon DID attack them, and they somehow managed to defeat it and build ontop of it. The two spiked tail things look like they could potentially be necks, perhaps representing the hydra dragon concept art.

So, with that as a valid possibility, what happened when they killed it? Did Albax absorb the magic and ascend? Is this Albax justifying the elder dragon cycle to Kunavang?I suppose it COULD be Shiny as it was missing when we went to the Djinn raid and missing in Elona in general. But I feel like that's a little less likely.

I really don't think the male voice is the deep sea dragon though, it sounds younger, and it sounds very similar to the female voice. I don't think that's a coincidence. It also seems highly implied, to me at least, that the DSD has been defeated and we see evidence in the trailer. Between the Krakens and the trapped Leviathans in the giant Jade formations in Guild Wars 1, I think DSD has probably been pretty involved in Cantha for quite some time. I wouldn't be surprised if it moved in somewhere between the two franchises and made its move but perhaps the combined military, the celestials, and Kunavang and Albax were able to defeat it. I mean just look at how many we've defeated even before Aurene came along.

It seems like this is mirroring OUR journey thus far with Elder Dragons and showing a civilization that did it without the help of the great "commander."

I really don't get the point of the purple fog everywhere or the purple pool. I don't think this is a solid indication of Lyssa though.

Also, at the end of the video when the male voice says, "They need me" - it zooms in on the saltsprey dragon's eyes, as if it implying that it is the one saying "They need me" which further makes me believe that it isn't Kunavang we're looking at, it's Albax.

The blue flying light at the beginning makes me think that is Aurene, and she's either overhearing the conversation or about to convene with the two.

I really don't think the "sought to destroy them" is talking about the affliction, because IT didn't really seek out anything, it was just a plague. And the tentacles at the bottom seem pretty ominous to me.

All that Dwayna magic used by Shiro probably looked pretty tasty to DSD and they got the best of it when it attacked, imo.

I suppose as a second theory in terms of the dialogue alone, you could argue that the female voice is eluding to "corrupting" humanity and providing immortality through branding but the male voice is saying, "no, they need me to save you from forcing immortality onto them/branding them."

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All I know is I'm happy that the name of this Expansion hints at ending the whole ED Saga once and for all.

Like look, the whole story of GW2 so far is cool and all, but it revolved around ED way too much.I still like HoT, I still liked Zhaitan story, but it just annoys me that all motivations and plot driving elements in GW2 story so far always leads back to EDs in some way.

Even PoF was mainly driven by the presence of an ED and while the power hungry Balth is the main focus, he too is driven and motivated by the presence of Kralk.

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@"Bast.7253" said:The first bit with the giant purple pool (0:08) is very interesting and I'm not sure what that's eluding to. Further on in the video we're lead under Kaening City with green clouds which I assume to represent the affliction. However there are also very obvious spiked SCALED tentacles/tail of somekind. Just look at the second close up, it's obviously scales. (0:22)

So, with the line about building above something that tried to destroy them, I'm really thinking that the deep sea dragon DID attack them, and they somehow managed to defeat it and build ontop of it. The two spiked tail things look like they could potentially be necks, perhaps representing the hydra dragon concept art.

Those structures are metal, you can find such pipes carrying sewage in GW1. Just go to Tahnnakai Temple outpost, and you can see some, they're all over the underneath maps:

5X30zdb.jpg

Nothing to do with the Elder Dragons. Just one of many dragon designs in Canthan architecture. Like their lighthouses.

Between the Krakens and the trapped Leviathans in the giant Jade formations in Guild Wars 1, I think DSD has probably been pretty involved in Cantha for quite some time.

Per lore, krakens were also in the seas near Tyria, and Leviathans are just giant undersea wurms (per Solid Ocean Fractal models). No relation to water twisted into tecntacled monsters - they'd look elemental if they were, like all other dragon minions.

I really don't get the point of the purple fog everywhere or the purple pool. I don't think this is a solid indication of Lyssa though.I've seen some folks suggest miasma and the Affliction, which wouldn't be too surprising if the trailer was just showcasing Cantha as it was in GW1, which all the landscape does imply.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Bast.7253" said:The first bit with the giant purple pool (0:08) is very interesting and I'm not sure what that's eluding to. Further on in the video we're lead under Kaening City with green clouds which I assume to represent the affliction. However there are also very obvious spiked SCALED tentacles/tail of somekind. Just look at the second close up, it's obviously scales. (0:22)

So, with the line about building above something that tried to destroy them, I'm really thinking that the deep sea dragon DID attack them, and they somehow managed to defeat it and build ontop of it. The two spiked tail things look like they could potentially be necks, perhaps representing the hydra dragon concept art.

Those structures are metal, you can find such pipes carrying sewage in GW1. Just go to Tahnnakai Temple outpost, and you can see some, they're all over the underneath maps:

5X30zdb.jpg

Nothing to do with the Elder Dragons. Just one of
many
dragon designs in Canthan architecture. Like their lighthouses.

Between the Krakens and the trapped Leviathans in the giant Jade formations in Guild Wars 1, I think DSD has probably been pretty involved in Cantha for quite some time.

Per lore, krakens were also in the seas near Tyria, and Leviathans are just giant undersea wurms (per Solid Ocean Fractal models). No relation to water twisted into tecntacled monsters - they'd look elemental if they were, like all other dragon minions.

I really don't get the point of the purple fog everywhere or the purple pool. I don't think this is a solid indication of Lyssa though.I've seen some folks suggest
and the Affliction, which wouldn't be too surprising if the trailer was just showcasing Cantha as it was in GW1, which all the landscape does imply.

The pipe bit is interesting and I wonder why they chose that for their design? Does it look like the saltspray dragons? Seems like they would have chosen something more similar to them. But yeah, I see the similarity.

As far as the Leviathan bit goes, isn't there a leviathan skeleton in the Durmond Priory implying it to be a dead minion of the deep sea dragon? I'll have to go in game but that's what I was pulling from on that.

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I do really like the theory that Cantha has already defeated the DSD. It's a nice twist. Plus avoids retreading the same old 'defeat an elder dragon' story steps.

If both Kuunavang and Albax have taken portions of the DSD's power, then it could quite well be a set-up for a Yin and Yang story.

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