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Intra-Class Balance Dynamic - My Perspectives - Things I'd Like To See Happen - 8/29/2020


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Currently in spvp "all modes" I see 3x main problems concerning the intra-class balance & dynamic that are seriously dragging down the fun factor of the game. The first problem is concerning how conditions are currently working in a condi heavy meta. The second is how too much passive CC is making the game feel like being stuck in a traffic jam. The third is that support classes have seriously been buffed way too much.

Conditions:

  1. Condition play is too strong and too bursty right now. Since year 1 we've all seen how condition dominant metas always bring in the laziest, spammiest, sloppiest, and most RNG type of play, which players generally have less fun with for several reasons. Most of the condi based attacks in the game are AoE in nature or activated through traits & utilities that create these primer abilities that cause condi damage to happen through any attack the user wants, including auto 1 spam. The real problem here is that the telegraphs for these AoE abilities and primed traits & utilities, have little to no telegraphs at all.
  2. All of the attack animations in the game are tied to power side damage. With power side damage, there is always a clear wind up animation and strike animation, regardless of the speed of the attack. However with condi based attacks or condi effects tied onto power based weapon attacks, they have slight tiny animations that don't even occur until after the skill is used or in some cases no animation at all. Without going into too much detail, I'll give a simple example to think about: Situation (A) - You enter a 3v3 at mid against a Holo, a Spellbreaker, and a Reaper. In this situation it is possible to counter play the telegraphs well enough that you can avoid most of the damage or maybe all of it. But in Situation (B) - You enter a 3v3 at mid against a Core Burn Guard, a Scourge, and an Ele. In this situation there is so much no animation no warning pulsing condi AoE, that you will get hit and you will take a lot of damage. I'm not saying that anything is OP or UP here. I am saying that this is the difference between when the game's dynamic feels good, and when it feels bad.
  3. With power dominant metas, we've seen over the years that this is when the difference in player skill levels really shines. Good players can see telegraphs and outplay a class/build that normally should be beating it. But in condi dominant metas, the gap in player effectiveness between a strong player and a weak player begins to shorten. This is because condi dominant metas force a type of playstyle that is less about watching telegraphs & outplaying, and more about just running whatever statistically has the strongest attributes in the current given patching, because no one can really avoid damage. Sure, being experienced does matter, but it matters a lot less in condi dominant metas.
  4. Condition builds also get out of control more easily than power builds in terms of being OP. This is mainly because of the way condi clear & stun breaks & other effects were implemented into the game. Most stun breaks and condi clears are utility skills and are often the same skill. We are talking skills such as "Shake it off" "Contemplation of purity" "Ranger utilities in conjunction with Wilderness Lore" "Plague Sig/Spectral Walk" "ect ect". So what happens is that while vs. power damage, a player only worries about using these skills for stun breaks. But while vs. condi damage, a player has to use these skills for clears and stun breaks. Condi builds, especially ones that can burst, often make a player have to cycle through their utilities & other abilities twice as quickly as normal. When condi builds are left too strong, they become dominant to the point that there is little to no practical counter play at all for this reason for forcing cool downs out of players too quickly with unavoidable nearly no telegraph AoE damage.
  5. My Suggestion - Due to how conditions were implemented into Guild Wars 2 in conjunction with how clears & stun breaks & other effects were implemented, conditions should only ever be attrition. Under no circumstances should any class/build ever be able to burst with conditions in the same way that a power build can burst. Condition based attacks have a negligent amount of telegraphs and too much AoE spam which makes the game dynamic feel sloppy, less skill based, and in general less fun to play.

Passive CC:

  1. Before all the passive CC was added, you could be in a 1v1 or team fight and be counter playing all the opponent's active CCs. You had a distinct good satisfying feeling of fluid play dynamic & being free of the hassle of mechanics that stop up and put delay on everything that everyone is doing. After all the passive CC was added, team fights and even 1v1s often feel like being stuck in a traffic jam. Now we have situations where you should be able to deal damage or stomp or revive or just do something, but you can't. Now we have combats that should be ending in 30s to 60s but instead they go on for ridiculously elongated amounts of time in a way that just feels bad man. This is too close of a feel to the old bunker metas, and in my opinion it actually feels worse than the old bunker metas because you're glued to the floor like 50% of the time you're engaged in a combat when too much passive CC is floating about.
  2. We're talking about: "Flashbang" "Shocking Aura Share" and also soft CC skills that passively proc of traits or pulse off pits, spamming soft CCs way too frequently and for way to elongated of amounts of time. When all of these effects start stacking on top of each other, it just turns into a mess of play dynamic that doesn't feel fun. Again, I'm not saying anything is OP or UP. I am saying that it makes the game feel bad to play. Another example to think about: Situation (A) a Spellbreaker and an S/D Thief vs. Power Soulbeast and Power Herald. In situation (A) every single skill used matters, every single CC is active, landing or missing an important CD creates detrimental momentum shifts, everything is high risk high reward, and as such the difference between good players and bad players in the match up is enormous. But most importantly, every single attack used has an actual telegraph that can be seen. There are no random pulsing nearly invisible effects happening at all. But in Situation (B) Tempest & Scourge vs. Tempest & FB, we have a mess on our hands. Players on these classes are rewarded for spamming skills off of CD, they actually don't need to pay that much attention at all to what's happening. There is way too much passive CC going on to where the traffic jam effect is happening. Landing or missing an important CD isn't really very detrimental at all and in fact, there is so much AoE going on here that it's actually hard to miss with a skill. Even if attacks are missed, chances are that the two duos in conjunction with their passive hard & soft CCs, could also support themselves so strongly to such a degree, that neither side would be able to kill the other. There is absolutely nothing risky here for how high the reward is, and every single thing that is happening in this 2v2 is a nearly impossible to see telegraph pulsing pit or aura like effect with little to no animation at all. This kind of dynamic is lame and boring because although the difference between P2 vs. G2 will be very obvious in Spellbreaker & Thief vs. Soulbeast & Herald, the difference between P2 vs. G2 in Tempest & Scourge vs. Tempest & FB will be barely visible at all due to the traffic jam effect.
  3. My Suggestion - Get rid of passive CC completely, at least the hard CCs. This trend needs to stop. Compensate the classes that lose the passive CCs in other ways.

Supports:

  1. Simply put, things that traditionally played the Support role are too strong right now. In years past it used to work like this: (Team Fighter) Has lots of AoE damage & active CC. Not so strong in 1v1s. Not as mobile as some other builds. Designed in a way that it benefits greatly when being paired with other Team Fighters and especially Supports. (Team Supports) Has lower supportive damage & CC to assist Team Fighters. It's prone to focus if it is alone but is very difficult to kill when being covered by its Team Fight. It greatly benefits Team Fighters who stay around it with frequent heals, buffs, and even debuffs vs. the opponents. Usually amongst the slowest classes/builds. (DPS + Roamer) Sometimes good in some 1v1s but bad in others. Of the highest mobility. Mainly single target strike damage but the damage is very high vs. that single target. Good at escaping, not so good when caught or focused. (Side Node Duelist or Bunker) Excellent in 1v1. Designed to hold a node, sometimes even in 1v2s. Designed to frequently CC opponents off the node. Designed to beat opponents with attrition if they waste enough time in the 1v1 against it. Not nearly as effective in team fights as Team Fighters, Team Supports, or even DPS + Roamers. <- All of this made sense and felt good. Very distinct roles that gave the game a special flavor & feeling with how it was balanced. But somewhere along the lines, anything that was a Support role just started getting buffed to where they were allowed to have the Team Fight damage & CC of Team Fighters, and the self sustain of Side Node Duelists & Bunkers, and even comparable mobility to some DPS + Roamers, all the while maintaining their full original Support capabilities. Now we have Supports that are capable of stacking on top of each other to also be full fledged Team Fighters, who can also wander off alone and be dominant in 1v1s, who are also amongst the most stable Side Noders. Supports are running spvp right now with alpha status.
  2. Yet another example of what I mean: Situation (A) A Tempest & FB vs. Tempest & Scourge are fighting in 2v2 arena. In this situation one team could be P2 and the other G3 and you'll barely be able to see the difference in the outcome of the match of how the skill difference mattered. Situation (B) A D/P Thief and Chrono vs. Tempest & Scourge. In this situation, the D/P Thief and the Chrono will need to be P2 to even be able to realistically threaten the G3 Tempest & Scourge in a 2v2 arena. The level of sustain alone on the G3 Tempest & Scourge duo is enough to deny the P2 Thief & Chrono of any opportunity they have to ever get a downstate, and even if they get a downstate, both supports have instant revive skills. The Thief & Chrono will have a difficult time dealing damage not only due to the large sustain on their opponents, but also because their opponents have a lot more damage output and CC than they should have for being full supports. The G3 Tempest & Scourge can play sloppily, missing most bursts, taking a lot of flat footed damage they don't need to be taking, and heal through all of it. But the Thief & Chrono could greatly mechanically outplay them, flawlessly & perfectly for over two minutes or more, and if either of them messes up just once, they can get caught and put into downstate instantly, with their partner having no way to realistically revive them. Supports are so strong right now, that on a daily basis I am seeing normally G3 players on Supports, bullying their way through and winning against normally P2 players who are on things like Thieves and Warriors and Mesmers. Supports are currently way way too strong.
  3. My Suggestion - The traditional strong Support classes/builds need to lose a sizeable amount of the offensive pressure they have. And instant revive skills all need to be on longer cast times so that there is a more realistic time frame to interrupt those skills.

There are lots of other things I'd like to go into detail on, like how hack programs & match manipulation needs to be punished. Or how I feel that Ranked mode should be deleted, Ranked rewards shuffled into Unranked, and rating/badge/title rewards shuffled into AT seasons which reset after each MAT. But for now I'll leave this thread as is in hopes that it is heard by someone, anyone, in the Arenanet office.

~ Some of us still love this game and we want it to feel good again.

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Oh dear.

  1. We aren't in a condi meta. The fact that there are handful of viable condi builds amongst the endless sea of power builds, doesn't mean condi meta. I see more power revs than condi revs these days, warriors on the rare occasion you see them are power, guardians are split 50/50 between power and condi atm, as are rangers, holos/scrappers are power, thieves are mostly power atm, necro is split 50/50 between power reapers and condi core/scourge, eles are mostly either playing support tempest or LR, and mesmers atm appear to be playing hybrid. Where is the condi meta? It seems like a pretty healthy mixture to me.

  2. Exactly what passive CC are you talking about? And you say it's been added..... what was added? Apart from Flashbang. Shocking aura access is the same as its been since HoT release. None of the CC that scourge or FB do is 'passive'. If the issue is just with Flashbang and shocking-aura (it's debatable whether shocking aura is "passive" since it requires deliberate activation) then just say so.

  3. You got supports 100% wrong here. The reason all "supports" at the moment are more like cc/tank hybrids, is that a purely support focused build is not viable at the moment. If you try and play a pure healing/boon guardian, or a pure healing tempest, or a pure healing druid, scrapper, ventari, you'll fail miserably. To be worth a player slot you also have to be providing heavy CC or moderate damage on top of heals. If you can't provide those, then an additional DPS player is preferable to a pure support.

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@"Ragnar.4257" said:Oh dear.

  1. We aren't in a condi meta. The fact that there are handful of viable condi builds amongst the endless sea of power builds, doesn't mean condi meta. I see more power revs than condi revs these days, warriors on the rare occasion you see them are power, guardians are split 50/50 between power and condi atm, as are rangers, holos/scrappers are power, thieves are mostly power atm, necro is split 50/50 between power reapers and condi core/scourge, eles are mostly either playing support tempest or LR, and mesmers atm appear to be playing hybrid. Where is the condi meta? It seems like a pretty healthy mixture to me.

  2. Exactly what passive CC are you talking about? And you say it's been added..... what was added? Apart from Flashbang. Shocking aura access is the same as its been since HoT release. None of the CC that scourge or FB do is 'passive'. If the issue is just with Flashbang and shocking-aura (it's debatable whether shocking aura is "passive" since it requires deliberate activation) then just say so.

  3. You got supports 100% wrong here. The reason all "supports" at the moment are more like cc/tank hybrids, is that a purely support focused build is not viable at the moment. If you try and play a pure healing/boon guardian, or a pure healing tempest, or a pure healing druid, scrapper, ventari, you'll fail miserably. To be worth a player slot you also have to be providing heavy CC or moderate damage on top of heals. If you can't provide those, then an additional DPS player is preferable to a pure support.

agree with support and Condi, but give trevor a slack, hes in NA and meta is different there so he has different opinion of it.As for support thing, here are my 2 cents.There is a point where CC is more valuable then any boon/healing you could do. After all stunned enemy does no damage, and using CC can be both defensive ( to peel for teammates ) and offense ( to set up burst for the teammates )In the end, I started to consider CC as an utility, and who should have good utility if not support.I agree that it might be too much on the CC department, it sure sucks to be knocked down, shocking aura, and then hit with fucking tornado, expecially since when that happens there is usually angry reaper/holo there with 20+ might, to make you regret logging on this stupid ass game, but supports need something.And if tempoest/fb or whatever the hell support do lose CC, they will have to be compensated for it, and if healing is given they will go full bunker...Personally I would like them to gain some boonrip/vulnerability

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

Personally I would like them to gain some boonrip/vulnerability

Scourge is meant to be the boonrip offensive support but anet nerfs its support tools all the time like it wants it to be a support but also doesn't and wants it to be a dps but dps scourge is not good. So what happens is people play bunker scourges..ugh.

Also NA meta is power and the exact same as EU's.

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A few notes about tempest and aura share.

Earlier, support used to play with water and earth traitlines. What happened? Two things:

  1. The power damage got kind of reduced. This made earth less necessary, protection is not a very important buff anymore with auras.
  2. Ele got access to mass condi cleanse in fire. This allowed to trait fire instead of earth for condi cleanses and only enabled using aura share.

Now I won't suggest to increase power damage or make tempest mor vulnerable to it. If caught off guard, it is still deadly. But earth needs some improvement to specialize - as @Leonidrex.5649 mentioned, maybe boon rip would be an idea. Maybe more soft CC like cripples or cover conditions.

Or else this could be solved by changing the condi cleanses on fire. I know, many eles have asked to be able to switch away from water, but the current situation shows, water is simply too strong in support overall. Make it not affect the team, but only the ele itself - a solo-focussed choice? Reduce the cleanses somehow, not affect other auras than fire (which would mean, weaver could benefit from it by constantly switching to fire, but core and tempest would get serious nerfs)?

These are the problems and changes in the whole game and ele traitlines which enabled the current CC spamming. Will it be addressed? Sure, but I doubt it will be in any meaningful or interesting way, but rather some ICD here, some cooldown increases and some number changes.


On another note: Revive glyph is another abomination which I hope gets deleted, maybe ele will already be nerfed enough and make support FB more viable just like this. The current revives combined with port and/or invulnerability is simply horrible for both the player (in my view, at least) and the enemy team.

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@Shiyo.3578 said:

Personally I would like them to gain some boonrip/vulnerability

Scourge is meant to be the boonrip offensive support but anet nerfs its support tools all the time like it wants it to be a support but also doesn't and wants it to be a dps but dps scourge is not good. So what happens is people play bunker scourges..ugh.

Also NA meta is power and the exact same as EU's.

Scourge has been nerfed to trash tier. I don't think it has any viable build at the moment.

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@Marxx.5021 said:

Personally I would like them to gain some boonrip/vulnerability

Scourge is meant to be the boonrip offensive support but anet nerfs its support tools all the time like it wants it to be a support but also doesn't and wants it to be a dps but dps scourge is not good. So what happens is people play bunker scourges..ugh.

Also NA meta is power and the exact same as EU's.

Scourge has been nerfed to trash tier. I don't think it has any viable build at the moment.

It does. It has a really obnoxious side node build that nothing can kill without a +.

It can run Mender or Marshal on a tanky minion build and it abuses the barriers to keep the minions alive. The minions deal a surprising amount of damage if you're trying to stay on a small side node against it.

Honestly it's worse in 1v2s than some other side noders because it has bad disengage. But in 1v1 over a side node, I haven't seen this build lose to anything if a competent necro player is behind it.

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@"Ragnar.4257" said:Oh dear.

  1. We aren't in a condi meta. The fact that there are handful of viable condi builds amongst the endless sea of power builds, doesn't mean condi meta. I see more power revs than condi revs these days, warriors on the rare occasion you see them are power, guardians are split 50/50 between power and condi atm, as are rangers, holos/scrappers are power, thieves are mostly power atm, necro is split 50/50 between power reapers and condi core/scourge, eles are mostly either playing support tempest or LR, and mesmers atm appear to be playing hybrid. Where is the condi meta? It seems like a pretty healthy mixture to me.

  2. Exactly what passive CC are you talking about? And you say it's been added..... what was added? Apart from Flashbang. Shocking aura access is the same as its been since HoT release. None of the CC that scourge or FB do is 'passive'. If the issue is just with Flashbang and shocking-aura (it's debatable whether shocking aura is "passive" since it requires deliberate activation) then just say so.

  3. You got supports 100% wrong here. The reason all "supports" at the moment are more like cc/tank hybrids, is that a purely support focused build is not viable at the moment. If you try and play a pure healing/boon guardian, or a pure healing tempest, or a pure healing druid, scrapper, ventari, you'll fail miserably. To be worth a player slot you also have to be providing heavy CC or moderate damage on top of heals. If you can't provide those, then an additional DPS player is preferable to a pure support.

I never said we were in a condi meta. I said we were in a condi heavy meta. Reread it.

  1. Thieves are nearly 75% PD Condi in NA and they are played often. Even in ATs good teams stack them lately, which is obnoxious. I had recently posted a screenshot of my team against Vaans' team in the final round of an AT. We had 4 PD Thieves in the match. This is where the difference is between EU players saying that condi isn't that big of a thing, but NA players complaining about too much condi. Outside of that yeah, it's nearly 50/50 power & condi play. But that doesn't change my point of view that condi heavy metas have bad dynamic.
  2. What passive CC am I talking about? Exactly what I said in the OP post. And yes, Shocking Aura is as passive as it gets. The Tempest itself casts it frequently and then after it is cast it lingers passively and auto CCs when players attempt attacks. Now when we're talking Aura Share, OTHER PLAYERS ARE DOING NOTHING to benefit Shocking Aura Share which once it goes onto them, it passively lingers there, interrupting enemies who attempt attacks around them. That's pretty much the epitome of passive CC. I don't understand how you can try to argue that.
  3. About Supports - I don't care if the Supports are Full-Support, Hybrid-Support, or Berserker Amulet-Support. The fact of the matter is that regardless of what ratio of Offense to Defense they are running on the build, they're still pumping out over-tweaked support whereas other classes don't have support at all. You fail to mention that things like Shocking Aura Share with Lightning Rod actually work better with high DPS for its support factor. And how things like condi cleansing & prot spam & team stab & bubbles for proj reflection type support, works exactly the same whether a Full-Support build or a Berserker-Support build. The only thing different on a Full-Support build really, is heal factor when someone is choosing to run something like Mender. Right now in this meta, Supports are optimizing for high damage with damage mitigation techniques, rather than raw healing. This style of support is showing to be much stronger and proving that my statement holds true when I said that: "Supports are too strong right now" regardless of why or how. I don't understand what your point in your 3) was, as if it were trying to avoid this fact.
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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:You fail to mention that things like Shocking Aura Share with Lightning Rod actually work better with high DPS for its support factor

Just gonna comment on this. I've tried to run a LR Aurashare tempest before. LR does not proc off of anyone's shocking aura but the Tempest's. It would be arguably better to run FA for more Air overloads --> More damage, vuln, and Shocking aura procs.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Personally I would like them to gain some boonrip/vulnerability

Scourge is meant to be the boonrip offensive support but anet nerfs its support tools all the time like it wants it to be a support but also doesn't and wants it to be a dps but dps scourge is not good. So what happens is people play bunker scourges..ugh.

Also NA meta is power and the exact same as EU's.

Scourge has been nerfed to trash tier. I don't think it has any viable build at the moment.

It does. It has a really obnoxious side node build that nothing can kill without a +.

It can run Mender or Marshal on a tanky minion build and it abuses the barriers to keep the minions alive. The minions deal a surprising amount of damage if you're trying to stay on a small side node against it.

Honestly it's worse in 1v2s than some other side noders because it has bad disengage. But in 1v1 over a side node, I haven't seen this build lose to anything if a competent necro player is behind it.

A yeah I forgot that borring troll build ...

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Personally I would like them to gain some boonrip/vulnerability

Scourge is meant to be the boonrip offensive support but anet nerfs its support tools all the time like it wants it to be a support but also doesn't and wants it to be a dps but dps scourge is not good. So what happens is people play bunker scourges..ugh.

Also NA meta is power and the exact same as EU's.

Scourge has been nerfed to trash tier. I don't think it has any viable build at the moment.

It does. It has a really obnoxious side node build that nothing can kill without a +.

It can run Mender or Marshal on a tanky minion build and it abuses the barriers to keep the minions alive. The minions deal a surprising amount of damage if you're trying to stay on a small side node against it.

Honestly it's worse in 1v2s than some other side noders because it has bad disengage. But in 1v1 over a side node, I haven't seen this build lose to anything if a competent necro player is behind it.

You don't see the 'Zoo necro' anywhere above g2. It's easily shut down and is only semi-viable at low rank or, as Leonidrix said - a troll build.

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@Marxx.5021 said:

Personally I would like them to gain some boonrip/vulnerability

Scourge is meant to be the boonrip offensive support but anet nerfs its support tools all the time like it wants it to be a support but also doesn't and wants it to be a dps but dps scourge is not good. So what happens is people play bunker scourges..ugh.

Also NA meta is power and the exact same as EU's.

Scourge has been nerfed to trash tier. I don't think it has any viable build at the moment.

Scourge is great rn as a supportest build. Was probably the most broken thing last 2v2 season

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@Dantheman.3589 said:

Personally I would like them to gain some boonrip/vulnerability

Scourge is meant to be the boonrip offensive support but anet nerfs its support tools all the time like it wants it to be a support but also doesn't and wants it to be a dps but dps scourge is not good. So what happens is people play bunker scourges..ugh.

Also NA meta is power and the exact same as EU's.

Scourge has been nerfed to trash tier. I don't think it has any viable build at the moment.

Scourge is great rn as a supportest build. Was probably the most broken thing last 2v2 season

Compared to other support specs scourge is weaker.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"Ragnar.4257" said:Oh dear.
  1. We aren't in a condi meta. The fact that there are handful of viable condi builds amongst the endless sea of power builds, doesn't mean condi meta. I see more power revs than condi revs these days, warriors on the rare occasion you see them are power, guardians are split 50/50 between power and condi atm, as are rangers, holos/scrappers are power, thieves are mostly power atm, necro is split 50/50 between power reapers and condi core/scourge, eles are mostly either playing support tempest or LR, and mesmers atm appear to be playing hybrid. Where is the condi meta? It seems like a pretty healthy mixture to me.
  2. Exactly what passive CC are you talking about? And you say it's been added..... what was added? Apart from Flashbang. Shocking aura access is the same as its been since HoT release. None of the CC that scourge or FB do is 'passive'. If the issue is just with Flashbang and shocking-aura (it's debatable whether shocking aura is "passive" since it requires deliberate activation) then just say so.
  3. You got supports 100% wrong here. The reason all "supports" at the moment are more like cc/tank hybrids, is that a purely support focused build is not viable at the moment. If you try and play a pure healing/boon guardian, or a pure healing tempest, or a pure healing druid, scrapper, ventari, you'll fail miserably. To be worth a player slot you also have to be providing heavy CC or moderate damage on top of heals. If you can't provide those, then an additional DPS player is preferable to a pure support.

I never said we were in a condi meta. I said we were in a condi heavy meta. Reread it.
  1. Thieves are nearly 75% PD Condi in NA and they are played often. Even in ATs good teams stack them lately, which is obnoxious. I had recently posted a screenshot of my team against Vaans' team in the final round of an AT. We had 4 PD Thieves in the match. This is where the difference is between EU players saying that condi isn't that big of a thing, but NA players complaining about too much condi. Outside of that yeah, it's nearly 50/50 power & condi play. But that doesn't change my point of view that condi heavy metas have bad dynamic.
  2. What passive CC am I talking about? Exactly what I said in the OP post. And yes, Shocking Aura is as passive as it gets. The Tempest itself casts it frequently and then after it is cast it lingers passively and auto CCs when players attempt attacks. Now when we're talking Aura Share, OTHER PLAYERS ARE DOING NOTHING to benefit Shocking Aura Share which once it goes onto them, it passively lingers there, interrupting enemies who attempt attacks around them. That's pretty much the epitome of passive CC. I don't understand how you can try to argue that.
  3. About Supports - I don't care if the Supports are Full-Support, Hybrid-Support, or Berserker Amulet-Support. The fact of the matter is that regardless of what ratio of Offense to Defense they are running on the build, they're still pumping out over-tweaked support whereas other classes don't have support at all. You fail to mention that things like Shocking Aura Share with Lightning Rod actually work better with high DPS for its support factor. And how things like condi cleansing & prot spam & team stab & bubbles for proj reflection type support, works exactly the same whether a Full-Support build or a Berserker-Support build. The only thing different on a Full-Support build really, is heal factor when someone is choosing to run something like Mender. Right now in this meta, Supports are optimizing for high damage with damage mitigation techniques, rather than raw healing. This style of support is showing to be much stronger and proving that my statement holds true when I said that: "Supports are too strong right now" regardless of why or how. I don't understand what your point in your 3) was, as if it were trying to avoid this fact.

Shocking aura is not passive at all , you don't get passively stunned unless you attack the ele exactly like full counter that you consider "heavy telegraph"; furthermore the aura is plenty visible. Since launch auras have worked "on hit" and full counter can be used way more frequently than SA seen as it's on a 8s CD

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@"Supreme.3164"

Dude that's like saying Flashbang isn't passive.

Some of you guys have very interesting requirements for what you would consider passive CC. I'd love to hear an explanation.

GOOGLE's definition of "Passive" says: without active response

So I must be very confused somehow. I mean for some reason I'm imagining that after one dodge rolls with Flashbang and then the CC happens instantly with no requirement for player response when an opponent tries to hit him, or after Shocking Aura is cast the CCs happen instantly with no requirement for player response when an opponents try to hit, that this would be considered passive. You know, according the English language's definition of "Passive".

You guys are making claims for the sake of argument, kind of like if I said: "Defy Pain isn't a passive trait because you have to enter a fight and get to 50% health before it works. Come on boys. Flashbang and Shocking Aura are passive CC. Sure, you have to dodge roll or do a quick cast to prime it, but it's all passive instant CC that cannot be avoided when a player makes a strike, after it is primed. Trying to claim the two are somehow "Active" is a far cry from how CCs like Bull's Charge or Earthshaker are "Active". Those are skills you have to time and aim and you can take no other actions while using them because they aren't a passive proc that lingers on you while you use all of your other skills.

Argue all you want but make the arguments reasonable.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@"Supreme.3164"

Dude that's like saying Flashbang isn't passive.

Some of you guys have very interesting requirements for what you would consider passive CC. I'd love to hear an explanation.

GOOGLE's definition of "Passive" says: without active response

So I must be very confused somehow. I mean for some reason I'm imagining that after one dodge rolls with Flashbang and then the CC happens instantly with no requirement for player response when an opponent tries to hit him, or after Shocking Aura is cast the CCs happen instantly with no requirement for player response when an opponents try to hit, that this would be considered passive. You know, according the English language's definition of "Passive".

You guys are making claims for the sake of argument, kind of like if I said: "Defy Pain isn't a passive trait because you have to enter a fight and get to 50% health before it works. Come on boys. Flashbang and Shocking Aura are passive CC. Sure, you have to dodge roll or do a quick cast to prime it, but it's all passive instant CC that cannot be avoided when a player makes a strike, after it is primed. Trying to claim the two are somehow "Active" is a far cry from how CCs like Bull's Charge or Earthshaker are "Active". Those are skills you have to time and aim and you can take no other actions while using them because they aren't a passive proc that lingers on you while you use all of your other skills.

Argue all you want but make the arguments reasonable.

Following your logic then counterattack on Ranger greatsword is passive too because you get knocked back if you hit the ranger while he's parrying ...then it should be removed too following again your logic

The following are "on hit" CC too

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bandit%27s_Defensehttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Full_Counter

I may have forgotten others but yeah, here the CC happens if you hit the target..so we should remove them too

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@Marxx.5021 said:

Personally I would like them to gain some boonrip/vulnerability

Scourge is meant to be the boonrip offensive support but anet nerfs its support tools all the time like it wants it to be a support but also doesn't and wants it to be a dps but dps scourge is not good. So what happens is people play bunker scourges..ugh.

Also NA meta is power and the exact same as EU's.

Scourge has been nerfed to trash tier. I don't think it has any viable build at the moment.

Scourge is great rn as a supportest build. Was probably the most broken thing last 2v2 season

Compared to other support specs scourge is weaker.

If u think scourge is weak rn well that’s some funny bs. It’s better than core necro rn which most would say is already wild.

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@Supreme.3164 said:

Dude that's like saying Flashbang isn't passive.

Some of you guys have very interesting requirements for what you would consider passive CC. I'd love to hear an explanation.

GOOGLE's definition of "Passive" says:
without active response

So I must be very confused somehow. I mean for some reason I'm imagining that after one dodge rolls with Flashbang and then the CC happens instantly with no requirement for player response when an opponent tries to hit him, or after Shocking Aura is cast the CCs happen instantly with no requirement for player response when an opponents try to hit, that this would be considered passive. You know, according the English language's definition of "Passive".

You guys are making claims for the sake of argument, kind of like if I said: "Defy Pain isn't a passive trait because you have to enter a fight and get to 50% health before it works. Come on boys. Flashbang and Shocking Aura are passive CC. Sure, you have to dodge roll or do a quick cast to prime it, but it's all passive instant CC that cannot be avoided when a player makes a strike, after it is primed. Trying to claim the two are somehow "Active" is a far cry from how CCs like Bull's Charge or Earthshaker are "Active". Those are skills you have to time and aim and you can take no other actions while using them because they aren't a passive proc that lingers on you while you use all of your other skills.

Argue all you want but make the arguments reasonable.

Following your logic then
counterattack
on Ranger greatsword is passive too because you get knocked back
if you hit
the ranger while he's parrying ...then it should be removed too following again your logic

The following are "on hit" CC too

I may have forgotten others but yeah, here the CC happens if you hit the target..so we should remove them too

Your way off man neither rangers block nor bandits defense work like that. Those are by definition active knockbacks, because u must activate them.

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@Dantheman.3589 said:

Dude that's like saying Flashbang isn't passive.

Some of you guys have very interesting requirements for what you would consider passive CC. I'd love to hear an explanation.

GOOGLE's definition of "Passive" says:
without active response

So I must be very confused somehow. I mean for some reason I'm imagining that after one dodge rolls with Flashbang and then the CC happens instantly with no requirement for player response when an opponent tries to hit him, or after Shocking Aura is cast the CCs happen instantly with no requirement for player response when an opponents try to hit, that this would be considered passive. You know, according the English language's definition of "Passive".

You guys are making claims for the sake of argument, kind of like if I said: "Defy Pain isn't a passive trait because you have to enter a fight and get to 50% health before it works. Come on boys. Flashbang and Shocking Aura are passive CC. Sure, you have to dodge roll or do a quick cast to prime it, but it's all passive instant CC that cannot be avoided when a player makes a strike, after it is primed. Trying to claim the two are somehow "Active" is a far cry from how CCs like Bull's Charge or Earthshaker are "Active". Those are skills you have to time and aim and you can take no other actions while using them because they aren't a passive proc that lingers on you while you use all of your other skills.

Argue all you want but make the arguments reasonable.

Following your logic then
counterattack
on Ranger greatsword is passive too because you get knocked back
if you hit
the ranger while he's parrying ...then it should be removed too following again your logic

The following are "on hit" CC too

I may have forgotten others but yeah, here the CC happens if you hit the target..so we should remove them too

Your way off man neither rangers block nor bandits defense work like that. Those are by definition active knockbacks, because u must activate them.

You can't CC anybody unless they hit you first....exactly like shocking aura, if you don't pay attention you get CCed by the ranger or thief and that's exactly like shocking aura, now the OP stating the auras are passive because the ele doesn't activate the skill when he's actually hit but...the conditions for the CC to occur are exactly the same, you need to hit the target first

By the way Shocking aura is on activation too if you or the OP didn't know, another argument would have been to change 1st part of shocking aura into a block or dmg mitigation

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@Supreme.3164 said:

Dude that's like saying Flashbang isn't passive.

Some of you guys have very interesting requirements for what you would consider passive CC. I'd love to hear an explanation.

GOOGLE's definition of "Passive" says:
without active response

So I must be very confused somehow. I mean for some reason I'm imagining that after one dodge rolls with Flashbang and then the CC happens instantly with no requirement for player response when an opponent tries to hit him, or after Shocking Aura is cast the CCs happen instantly with no requirement for player response when an opponents try to hit, that this would be considered passive. You know, according the English language's definition of "Passive".

You guys are making claims for the sake of argument, kind of like if I said: "Defy Pain isn't a passive trait because you have to enter a fight and get to 50% health before it works. Come on boys. Flashbang and Shocking Aura are passive CC. Sure, you have to dodge roll or do a quick cast to prime it, but it's all passive instant CC that cannot be avoided when a player makes a strike, after it is primed. Trying to claim the two are somehow "Active" is a far cry from how CCs like Bull's Charge or Earthshaker are "Active". Those are skills you have to time and aim and you can take no other actions while using them because they aren't a passive proc that lingers on you while you use all of your other skills.

Argue all you want but make the arguments reasonable.

Following your logic then
counterattack
on Ranger greatsword is passive too because you get knocked back
if you hit
the ranger while he's parrying ...then it should be removed too following again your logic

The following are "on hit" CC too

I may have forgotten others but yeah, here the CC happens if you hit the target..so we should remove them too

Your way off man neither rangers block nor bandits defense work like that. Those are by definition active knockbacks, because u must activate them.

You can't CC anybody unless they hit you first....exactly like shocking aura, if you don't pay attention you get CCed by the ranger or thief and that's exactly like shocking aura, now the OP stating the auras are passive because the ele doesn't activate the skill when he's actually hit but...
the conditions for the CC to occur are exactly the same, you need to hit the target first

By the way
Shocking aura is on activation too
if you or the OP didn't know, another argument would have been to change 1st part of shocking aura into a block or dmg mitigation

No it’s not at all. Shocking aura is a passive cc with an active condition. Ranger block is active with a passive condition. Hence they are opposites.

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@Supreme.3164 said:

Dude that's like saying Flashbang isn't passive.

Some of you guys have very interesting requirements for what you would consider passive CC. I'd love to hear an explanation.

GOOGLE's definition of "Passive" says:
without active response

So I must be very confused somehow. I mean for some reason I'm imagining that after one dodge rolls with Flashbang and then the CC happens instantly with no requirement for player response when an opponent tries to hit him, or after Shocking Aura is cast the CCs happen instantly with no requirement for player response when an opponents try to hit, that this would be considered passive. You know, according the English language's definition of "Passive".

You guys are making claims for the sake of argument, kind of like if I said: "Defy Pain isn't a passive trait because you have to enter a fight and get to 50% health before it works. Come on boys. Flashbang and Shocking Aura are passive CC. Sure, you have to dodge roll or do a quick cast to prime it, but it's all passive instant CC that cannot be avoided when a player makes a strike, after it is primed. Trying to claim the two are somehow "Active" is a far cry from how CCs like Bull's Charge or Earthshaker are "Active". Those are skills you have to time and aim and you can take no other actions while using them because they aren't a passive proc that lingers on you while you use all of your other skills.

Argue all you want but make the arguments reasonable.

Following your logic then
counterattack
on Ranger greatsword is passive too because you get knocked back
if you hit
the ranger while he's parrying ...then it should be removed too following again your logic

The following are "on hit" CC too

I may have forgotten others but yeah, here the CC happens if you hit the target..so we should remove them too

That is about as far from the listed logic as possible.

When the Ranger blocks, if it gets hit, the skill turns into Counterattack. Then the Ranger must push the button again to use the Counterattack, which has an animation and must be aimed. During this time no other skills can be used because it is an active use weapon kit skill with an animation that must be aimed.

Shocking Aura is literally an aura that hovers about someone for 4s after it is cast, allowing up to 2x procs from the 4s against each attacking opponent. Because it is an aura, after it is cast, it allows the person with the aura to take other actions because it is not an active use skill, it is an aura. Furthermore, the CC has no animation time and instantaneously activates when an opponent hits the person with any attack at all. If this wasn't enough, it also can hit enemies during attacks that evade like Unrelenting Assault and Surge of the Mists, because it is not an active use CC but rather an aura that lands an instant CC with no animation whatsoever against any opponent that attacks the person with the aura.

Just stop. Shocking Aura is as passive as it gets.

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@Supreme.3164 said:

Dude that's like saying Flashbang isn't passive.

Some of you guys have very interesting requirements for what you would consider passive CC. I'd love to hear an explanation.

GOOGLE's definition of "Passive" says:
without active response

So I must be very confused somehow. I mean for some reason I'm imagining that after one dodge rolls with Flashbang and then the CC happens instantly with no requirement for player response when an opponent tries to hit him, or after Shocking Aura is cast the CCs happen instantly with no requirement for player response when an opponents try to hit, that this would be considered passive. You know, according the English language's definition of "Passive".

You guys are making claims for the sake of argument, kind of like if I said: "Defy Pain isn't a passive trait because you have to enter a fight and get to 50% health before it works. Come on boys. Flashbang and Shocking Aura are passive CC. Sure, you have to dodge roll or do a quick cast to prime it, but it's all passive instant CC that cannot be avoided when a player makes a strike, after it is primed. Trying to claim the two are somehow "Active" is a far cry from how CCs like Bull's Charge or Earthshaker are "Active". Those are skills you have to time and aim and you can take no other actions while using them because they aren't a passive proc that lingers on you while you use all of your other skills.

Argue all you want but make the arguments reasonable.

Following your logic then
counterattack
on Ranger greatsword is passive too because you get knocked back
if you hit
the ranger while he's parrying ...then it should be removed too following again your logic

The following are "on hit" CC too

I may have forgotten others but yeah, here the CC happens if you hit the target..so we should remove them too

Your way off man neither rangers block nor bandits defense work like that. Those are by definition active knockbacks, because u must activate them.

You can't CC anybody unless they hit you first....exactly like shocking aura, if you don't pay attention you get CCed by the ranger or thief and that's exactly like shocking aura, now the OP stating the auras are passive because the ele doesn't activate the skill when he's actually hit but...
the conditions for the CC to occur are exactly the same, you need to hit the target first

By the way
Shocking aura is on activation too
if you or the OP didn't know, another argument would have been to change 1st part of shocking aura into a block or dmg mitigation

The biggest difference here as well is that you can quite literally dodge to avoid the actual hit from both Full Counter and Bandit's Defense because after proccing them there is a brief activation time before the hit connects and both retaliatory attacks are paired with an animation as an additional visual tell.

With Shocking Aura you hit it and the CC just applies, no activation time, no animation. Very different from Full Counter and Bandit's Defense.

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