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Intra-Class Balance Dynamic - My Perspectives - Things I'd Like To See Happen - 8/29/2020


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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Dude that's like saying Flashbang isn't passive.

Some of you guys have very interesting requirements for what you would consider passive CC. I'd love to hear an explanation.

GOOGLE's definition of "Passive" says:
without active response

So I must be very confused somehow. I mean for some reason I'm imagining that after one dodge rolls with Flashbang and then the CC happens instantly with no requirement for player response when an opponent tries to hit him, or after Shocking Aura is cast the CCs happen instantly with no requirement for player response when an opponents try to hit, that this would be considered passive. You know, according the English language's definition of "Passive".

You guys are making claims for the sake of argument, kind of like if I said: "Defy Pain isn't a passive trait because you have to enter a fight and get to 50% health before it works. Come on boys. Flashbang and Shocking Aura are passive CC. Sure, you have to dodge roll or do a quick cast to prime it, but it's all passive instant CC that cannot be avoided when a player makes a strike, after it is primed. Trying to claim the two are somehow "Active" is a far cry from how CCs like Bull's Charge or Earthshaker are "Active". Those are skills you have to time and aim and you can take no other actions while using them because they aren't a passive proc that lingers on you while you use all of your other skills.

Argue all you want but make the arguments reasonable.

Following your logic then
counterattack
on Ranger greatsword is passive too because you get knocked back
if you hit
the ranger while he's parrying ...then it should be removed too following again your logic

The following are "on hit" CC too

I may have forgotten others but yeah, here the CC happens if you hit the target..so we should remove them too

That is about as far from the listed logic as possible.

When the Ranger blocks, if it gets hit, the skill turns into Counterattack. Then the Ranger must push the button again to use the Counterattack, which has an animation and must be aimed. During this time no other skills can be used because it is an active use weapon kit skill with an animation that must be aimed.

Shocking Aura is literally an aura that hovers about someone for 4s after it is cast, allowing up to 2x procs from the 4s against each attacking opponent. Because it is an aura, after it is cast, it allows the person with the aura to take other actions because it is not an active use skill, it is an aura. Furthermore, the CC has no animation time and instantaneously activates when an opponent hits the person with any attack at all. If this wasn't enough, it also can hit enemies during attacks that evade like Unrelenting Assault and Surge of the Mists, because it is not an active use CC but rather an aura that lands an instant CC with no animation whatsoever against any opponent that attacks the person with the aura.

Just stop. Shocking Aura is as passive as it gets.

You have your idea of passive and that's it. In the end shocking aura is a defensive mechanic placed there to give a breathing room from the constant focus, can you propose alternatives for replacement and that end up doing the same thing?

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@Supreme.3164 said:

@"Ragnar.4257" said:Oh dear.
  1. We aren't in a condi meta. The fact that there are handful of viable condi builds amongst the endless sea of power builds, doesn't mean condi meta. I see more power revs than condi revs these days, warriors on the rare occasion you see them are power, guardians are split 50/50 between power and condi atm, as are rangers, holos/scrappers are power, thieves are mostly power atm, necro is split 50/50 between power reapers and condi core/scourge, eles are mostly either playing support tempest or LR, and mesmers atm appear to be playing hybrid. Where is the condi meta? It seems like a pretty healthy mixture to me.
  2. Exactly what passive CC are you talking about? And you say it's been added..... what was added? Apart from Flashbang. Shocking aura access is the same as its been since HoT release. None of the CC that scourge or FB do is 'passive'. If the issue is just with Flashbang and shocking-aura (it's debatable whether shocking aura is "passive" since it requires deliberate activation) then just say so.
  3. You got supports 100% wrong here. The reason all "supports" at the moment are more like cc/tank hybrids, is that a purely support focused build is not viable at the moment. If you try and play a pure healing/boon guardian, or a pure healing tempest, or a pure healing druid, scrapper, ventari, you'll fail miserably. To be worth a player slot you also have to be providing heavy CC or moderate damage on top of heals. If you can't provide those, then an additional DPS player is preferable to a pure support.

I never said we were in a condi meta. I said we were in a condi heavy meta. Reread it.
  1. Thieves are nearly 75% PD Condi in NA and they are played often. Even in ATs good teams stack them lately, which is obnoxious. I had recently posted a screenshot of my team against Vaans' team in the final round of an AT. We had 4 PD Thieves in the match. This is where the difference is between EU players saying that condi isn't that big of a thing, but NA players complaining about too much condi. Outside of that yeah, it's nearly 50/50 power & condi play. But that doesn't change my point of view that condi heavy metas have bad dynamic.
  2. What passive CC am I talking about? Exactly what I said in the OP post. And yes, Shocking Aura is as passive as it gets. The Tempest itself casts it frequently and then after it is cast it lingers passively and auto CCs when players attempt attacks. Now when we're talking Aura Share, OTHER PLAYERS ARE DOING NOTHING to benefit Shocking Aura Share which once it goes onto them, it passively lingers there, interrupting enemies who attempt attacks around them. That's pretty much the epitome of passive CC. I don't understand how you can try to argue that.
  3. About Supports - I don't care if the Supports are Full-Support, Hybrid-Support, or Berserker Amulet-Support. The fact of the matter is that regardless of what ratio of Offense to Defense they are running on the build, they're still pumping out over-tweaked support whereas other classes don't have support at all. You fail to mention that things like Shocking Aura Share with Lightning Rod actually work better with high DPS for its support factor. And how things like condi cleansing & prot spam & team stab & bubbles for proj reflection type support, works exactly the same whether a Full-Support build or a Berserker-Support build. The only thing different on a Full-Support build really, is heal factor when someone is choosing to run something like Mender. Right now in this meta, Supports are optimizing for high damage with damage mitigation techniques, rather than raw healing. This style of support is showing to be much stronger and proving that my statement holds true when I said that: "Supports are too strong right now" regardless of why or how. I don't understand what your point in your 3) was, as if it were trying to avoid this fact.

Shocking aura is not passive at all , you don't get passively stunned unless you attack the ele
exactly
like full counter that you consider "heavy telegraph"; furthermore the aura is plenty visible. Since launch auras have worked "on hit" and full counter can be used way more frequently than SA seen as it's on a 8s CD

If I put down a symbol then the tempest uses shock aura and runs into my symbol, I get stunned. I continue to get stunned if it AOE's shock aura onto more people and am basically stunlocked from CC I had to ""predict"" coming by literally not pressing my highest damaging ability. Shock aura is completely broken and passive, and it's counter play is simply not playing the game at all.

Not playing GW2 isn't good counterplay for an ability btw.

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@Shiyo.3578 said:

@"Ragnar.4257" said:Oh dear.
  1. We aren't in a condi meta. The fact that there are handful of viable condi builds amongst the endless sea of power builds, doesn't mean condi meta. I see more power revs than condi revs these days, warriors on the rare occasion you see them are power, guardians are split 50/50 between power and condi atm, as are rangers, holos/scrappers are power, thieves are mostly power atm, necro is split 50/50 between power reapers and condi core/scourge, eles are mostly either playing support tempest or LR, and mesmers atm appear to be playing hybrid. Where is the condi meta? It seems like a pretty healthy mixture to me.
  2. Exactly what passive CC are you talking about? And you say it's been added..... what was added? Apart from Flashbang. Shocking aura access is the same as its been since HoT release. None of the CC that scourge or FB do is 'passive'. If the issue is just with Flashbang and shocking-aura (it's debatable whether shocking aura is "passive" since it requires deliberate activation) then just say so.
  3. You got supports 100% wrong here. The reason all "supports" at the moment are more like cc/tank hybrids, is that a purely support focused build is not viable at the moment. If you try and play a pure healing/boon guardian, or a pure healing tempest, or a pure healing druid, scrapper, ventari, you'll fail miserably. To be worth a player slot you also have to be providing heavy CC or moderate damage on top of heals. If you can't provide those, then an additional DPS player is preferable to a pure support.

I never said we were in a condi meta. I said we were in a condi heavy meta. Reread it.
  1. Thieves are nearly 75% PD Condi in NA and they are played often. Even in ATs good teams stack them lately, which is obnoxious. I had recently posted a screenshot of my team against Vaans' team in the final round of an AT. We had 4 PD Thieves in the match. This is where the difference is between EU players saying that condi isn't that big of a thing, but NA players complaining about too much condi. Outside of that yeah, it's nearly 50/50 power & condi play. But that doesn't change my point of view that condi heavy metas have bad dynamic.
  2. What passive CC am I talking about? Exactly what I said in the OP post. And yes, Shocking Aura is as passive as it gets. The Tempest itself casts it frequently and then after it is cast it lingers passively and auto CCs when players attempt attacks. Now when we're talking Aura Share, OTHER PLAYERS ARE DOING NOTHING to benefit Shocking Aura Share which once it goes onto them, it passively lingers there, interrupting enemies who attempt attacks around them. That's pretty much the epitome of passive CC. I don't understand how you can try to argue that.
  3. About Supports - I don't care if the Supports are Full-Support, Hybrid-Support, or Berserker Amulet-Support. The fact of the matter is that regardless of what ratio of Offense to Defense they are running on the build, they're still pumping out over-tweaked support whereas other classes don't have support at all. You fail to mention that things like Shocking Aura Share with Lightning Rod actually work better with high DPS for its support factor. And how things like condi cleansing & prot spam & team stab & bubbles for proj reflection type support, works exactly the same whether a Full-Support build or a Berserker-Support build. The only thing different on a Full-Support build really, is heal factor when someone is choosing to run something like Mender. Right now in this meta, Supports are optimizing for high damage with damage mitigation techniques, rather than raw healing. This style of support is showing to be much stronger and proving that my statement holds true when I said that: "Supports are too strong right now" regardless of why or how. I don't understand what your point in your 3) was, as if it were trying to avoid this fact.

Shocking aura is not passive at all , you don't get passively stunned unless you attack the ele
exactly
like full counter that you consider "heavy telegraph"; furthermore the aura is plenty visible. Since launch auras have worked "on hit" and full counter can be used way more frequently than SA seen as it's on a 8s CD

If I put down a symbol then the tempest uses shock aura and runs into my symbol, I get stunned. I continue to get stunned if it AOE's shock aura onto more people and am basically stunlocked from CC I had to ""predict"" coming by literally not pressing my highest damaging ability. Shock aura is completely broken and passive, and it's counter play is simply not playing the game at all.

Not playing GW2 isn't good counterplay for an ability btw.

Shocking aura has been here since launch ..which was 8 years ago, that was plenty of time to learn how to counterplay the skill :

1.The stun is only melee

  1. You have stability
  2. Only last 4s and stun once every 2s for 1s
  3. Does not reflect or block incoming dmg be it condi or direct

Saying that Shocking aura stops you from playing the game is a pompous grossly exaggeration to say the least

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:@Supreme.3164 shocking aura is defensive, untill 25might, quickness holo is running you the kitten down, and you can stop him due to shocking aura that will stun you if you try to fight back :D

Assuming I understand the meaning as the sentence is quite confusing...how exactly does the holo get shocking aura? runes of surging?

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Great feedback and well put. I know the balance of tankiness between power and condi classes has been something that's been a sticky topic of PvP in GW2 for a long time and honestly I don't think that it would be as much of an issue for condi classes to have more survivability/tankiness if their damage was balancedd more towards attrition instead of being able to be burst out like it currently is.

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@Supreme.3164 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@Supreme.3164 shocking aura is defensive, untill 25might, quickness holo is running you the kitten down, and you can stop him due to shocking aura that will stun you if you try to fight back :D

Assuming I understand the meaning as the sentence is quite confusing...how exactly does the holo get shocking aura? runes of surging?

tempest

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@Supreme.3164 said:

@"Ragnar.4257" said:Oh dear.
  1. We aren't in a condi meta. The fact that there are handful of viable condi builds amongst the endless sea of power builds, doesn't mean condi meta. I see more power revs than condi revs these days, warriors on the rare occasion you see them are power, guardians are split 50/50 between power and condi atm, as are rangers, holos/scrappers are power, thieves are mostly power atm, necro is split 50/50 between power reapers and condi core/scourge, eles are mostly either playing support tempest or LR, and mesmers atm appear to be playing hybrid. Where is the condi meta? It seems like a pretty healthy mixture to me.
  2. Exactly what passive CC are you talking about? And you say it's been added..... what was added? Apart from Flashbang. Shocking aura access is the same as its been since HoT release. None of the CC that scourge or FB do is 'passive'. If the issue is just with Flashbang and shocking-aura (it's debatable whether shocking aura is "passive" since it requires deliberate activation) then just say so.
  3. You got supports 100% wrong here. The reason all "supports" at the moment are more like cc/tank hybrids, is that a purely support focused build is not viable at the moment. If you try and play a pure healing/boon guardian, or a pure healing tempest, or a pure healing druid, scrapper, ventari, you'll fail miserably. To be worth a player slot you also have to be providing heavy CC or moderate damage on top of heals. If you can't provide those, then an additional DPS player is preferable to a pure support.

I never said we were in a condi meta. I said we were in a condi heavy meta. Reread it.
  1. Thieves are nearly 75% PD Condi in NA and they are played often. Even in ATs good teams stack them lately, which is obnoxious. I had recently posted a screenshot of my team against Vaans' team in the final round of an AT. We had 4 PD Thieves in the match. This is where the difference is between EU players saying that condi isn't that big of a thing, but NA players complaining about too much condi. Outside of that yeah, it's nearly 50/50 power & condi play. But that doesn't change my point of view that condi heavy metas have bad dynamic.
  2. What passive CC am I talking about? Exactly what I said in the OP post. And yes, Shocking Aura is as passive as it gets. The Tempest itself casts it frequently and then after it is cast it lingers passively and auto CCs when players attempt attacks. Now when we're talking Aura Share, OTHER PLAYERS ARE DOING NOTHING to benefit Shocking Aura Share which once it goes onto them, it passively lingers there, interrupting enemies who attempt attacks around them. That's pretty much the epitome of passive CC. I don't understand how you can try to argue that.
  3. About Supports - I don't care if the Supports are Full-Support, Hybrid-Support, or Berserker Amulet-Support. The fact of the matter is that regardless of what ratio of Offense to Defense they are running on the build, they're still pumping out over-tweaked support whereas other classes don't have support at all. You fail to mention that things like Shocking Aura Share with Lightning Rod actually work better with high DPS for its support factor. And how things like condi cleansing & prot spam & team stab & bubbles for proj reflection type support, works exactly the same whether a Full-Support build or a Berserker-Support build. The only thing different on a Full-Support build really, is heal factor when someone is choosing to run something like Mender. Right now in this meta, Supports are optimizing for high damage with damage mitigation techniques, rather than raw healing. This style of support is showing to be much stronger and proving that my statement holds true when I said that: "Supports are too strong right now" regardless of why or how. I don't understand what your point in your 3) was, as if it were trying to avoid this fact.

Shocking aura is not passive at all , you don't get passively stunned unless you attack the ele
exactly
like full counter that you consider "heavy telegraph"; furthermore the aura is plenty visible. Since launch auras have worked "on hit" and full counter can be used way more frequently than SA seen as it's on a 8s CD

If I put down a symbol then the tempest uses shock aura and runs into my symbol, I get stunned. I continue to get stunned if it AOE's shock aura onto more people and am basically stunlocked from CC I had to ""predict"" coming by literally not pressing my highest damaging ability. Shock aura is completely broken and passive, and it's counter play is simply not playing the game at all.

Not playing GW2 isn't good counterplay for an ability btw.

Shocking aura has been here since launch ..which was 8 years ago, that was plenty of time to learn how to counterplay the skill :

1.The stun is only
melee
  1. You have stability
  2. Only last 4s and stun once every 2s for 1s
  3. Does not reflect or block incoming dmg be it condi or direct

Saying that Shocking aura stops you from playing the game is a pompous grossly exaggeration to say the least
  1. No it isn't. When I try to use Lightning Reflexes while in range of Shocking Aura, it prevents me from using my evade and nullifies the point of the stun break to begin with. The same goes for other non melee damage sources.
  2. You reference Shocking Aura being in the game for 8 years and this is true. But in those initial years, it was convenient for every build to run as much Stability as they could. And later years, +conc stat amulets were introduced along with runes that added wildly large amounts of flat +boon durations. During these years, a single proc of Stability with say 10 stacks, would last like 15s to 20s. This is why no one noticed Shocking Aura during those years. AFTER the legend nerf patch that massively lowered DPS, removed tons of stun breaks, removed stability procs, removed +conc stat amulets, and hard nerfed +boon duration runes, players now have access to roughly 2/3rds of the stun breaks they previously had, and only 1/3rd of the Stability access & uptime. This makes it so that for many classes/builds, it simply isn't worth bringing Stability at all because the procs are infrequent and short duration. Utility skills slots & traits are often better used in other ways. <- These are the reasons why Shocking Aura is a problem now, post legend nerf patch.
  3. "Only lasts 4s and stun once every 2s for 1s" Yeah against 5 opponents. Each opponent can be struck by Shocking Aura once per 2s. So with that 4s of Shocking aura while in a team fight, it can potentially land 10x instant unavoidable interrupts against 5 opponents, for a total of 10s worth of stun collectively and on only a 25s CD. And that 25s CD is for just the actual normal skill, not countering traits or abilities or other sources that cause it to happen much more frequently. Dude that's way too much CC to be healthy for the game after so much counter play vs. CC was removed from the game. And that's not even mentioning the entirely passive nature of it.
  4. Doesn't reflect or block damage? Dude it interrupts incoming damage. That's like equal to reflects or blocks if not better, because it is CCing opponents so they themselves are being setup to be counter pressured. Not sure if you're being serious with your responses or not tbh.

No one said Shocking Aura stops them from playing the game. People say it bogs the game dynamic down, and it does.

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You know what, on a different note, here is a list of class balance commentary:

  • War - Should stay the same as it is now. It's in a good place balance wise/feel wise.
  • Spellbreaker - Same as War. If it weren't for OP classes, Spellbreaker feels good to play and play against.
  • Berserker - It's actually not bad in the absence of the current OP classes. Don't feel like it's sitting in a cherry spot though.
  • Guard - Needs either a damage or sustain shave. Should stay the way it is other than that. It feels good to play right now.
  • Dragonhunter - I feel like it's balanced nowadays, but underused due to presence of broken classes. Though it isn't in a sweet spot.
  • Firebrand - It's right where it should be for once. Leave it alone.
  • Rev - Never see it in play, no idea
  • Herald - Needs a decrese in its teleportation frequency and it would be balanced. Leave it as is.
  • Renegade - Feels balanced at times. Other times I feel like Kalla needs reviewing. I don't know Ren enough to really comment.
  • Engi - Only reason it's not being used is due to how strong Scrapper/Holo are right now. Wouldn't say it's in a sweet spot though.
  • Scrapper - Balanced. It would see a lot more play if it weren't for other super specs.
  • Holo - It's packing way too much after flashbang. Imo forge needs to go to a 9s CD and flashbang needs to be removed.
  • Thief - Balanced outside of Deadly Arts line as usual. Leave everything else alone.
  • Daredevil - Balanced. Leave it alone.
  • Deadeye - 1/2 a step away from no longer playable. If you don't want to give it back its damage, give it some passive sustain that comes from DE trait line abilities so it's at least playable in spvp.
  • Ranger - Balanced. Leave it alone. Some would say it fell out, but that's only because of the presence of OP things. If those things were nerfed, Ranger would be sitting in a nice sweet spot. Even the way core ranger plays right now, is how it should have always felt.
  • Druid - In a bad place. See the link in my signature about Druid competitive suggestions.
  • Soulbeast - Balanced. Leave it alone. If the god tier specs were nerfed, Soulbeast would be sitting in a sweet spot. And aside from what many people may say, I actually agree with the no pet swap drawback.
  • Mes - Balanced if in a world without god tier specs. It actually feels good to play at this point. Leave it alone, nerf the out of control specs.
  • Chrono - ^ same as Mes
  • Mirage - Needs its 2nd dodge back and compensation for losing expertise stat.
  • Ele - Kind of weak tbh. Tempest & Weaver provide really really powerful mechanics that Ele simply does not have access to.
  • Tempest - Shocking Aura seriously needs to be heavily nerfed. The CC could be changed to a 1/2 daze and it would be functional. It does not need to be a 1s stun for such a ridiculously persistent passive effect.
  • Weaver - These are actually really strong right now and I'm not really sure why I don't see them being used more often. I suppose it's because "Why roll Weaver when you could roll Tempest Aura Share?" But Weaver is on the verge of being OP if other things were to be nerfed.
  • Necro - Kind of fell out but you know what? It's where it should be for a core spec. Though I do have to say that Vampiric Rituals needs to be put right back where it once was. It was a bad idea to remove that trait and tinker with wells. It removed an entire category of niche builds that many people really enjoyed the feel of.
  • Reaper - Too strong right now. Though I feel like this is more of a symptom of the disease that is Tempest Shocking Aura Share. The Reaper became super OP when he's running around with Shocking Aura all of the time in team fights. That's pretty much exactly what happened. If Shock Aura was nerfed, leave Reaper as is. It's in a good place.
  • Scourge - Exactly where it should be. Leave it as is.

Just my opinions. I feel like if the actual problems were addressed next time around rather than a stir the bucket approach, we'd have a good balanced meta on our hands.

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@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:You know what, on a different note, here is a list of class balance commentary:

  • War - Should stay the same as it is now. It's in a good place balance wise/feel wise.
  • Spellbreaker - Same as War. If it weren't for OP classes, Spellbreaker feels good to play and play against.
  • Berserker - It's actually not bad in the absence of the current OP classes. Don't feel like it's sitting in a cherry spot though.
  • Guard - Needs either a damage or sustain shave. Should stay the way it is other than that. It feels good to play right now.
  • Dragonhunter - I feel like it's balanced nowadays, but underused due to presence of broken classes. Though it isn't in a sweet spot.
  • Firebrand - It's right where it should be for once. Leave it alone.
  • Rev - Never see it in play, no idea
  • Herald - Needs a decrese in its teleportation frequency and it would be balanced. Leave it as is.
  • Renegade - Feels balanced at times. Other times I feel like Kalla needs reviewing. I don't know Ren enough to really comment.
  • Engi - Only reason it's not being used is due to how strong Scrapper/Holo are right now. Wouldn't say it's in a sweet spot though.
  • Scrapper - Balanced. It would see a lot more play if it weren't for other super specs.
  • Holo - It's packing way too much after flashbang. Imo forge needs to go to a 9s CD and flashbang needs to be removed.
  • Thief - Balanced outside of Deadly Arts line as usual. Leave everything else alone.
  • Daredevil - Balanced. Leave it alone.
  • Deadeye - 1/2 a step away from no longer playable. If you don't want to give it back its damage, give it some passive sustain that comes from DE trait line abilities so it's at least playable in spvp.
  • Ranger - Balanced. Leave it alone. Some would say it fell out, but that's only because of the presence of OP things. If those things were nerfed, Ranger would be sitting in a nice sweet spot. Even the way core ranger plays right now, is how it should have always felt.
  • Druid - In a bad place. See the link in my signature about Druid competitive suggestions.
  • Soulbeast - Balanced. Leave it alone. If the god tier specs were nerfed, Soulbeast would be sitting in a sweet spot. And aside from what many people may say, I actually agree with the no pet swap drawback.
  • Mes - Balanced if in a world without god tier specs. It actually feels good to play at this point. Leave it alone, nerf the out of control specs.
  • Chrono - ^ same as Mes
  • Mirage - Needs its 2nd dodge back and compensation for losing expertise stat.
  • Ele - Kind of weak tbh. Tempest & Weaver provide really really powerful mechanics that Ele simply does not have access to.
  • Tempest - Shocking Aura seriously needs to be heavily nerfed. The CC could be changed to a 1/2 daze and it would be functional. It does not need to be a 1s stun for such a ridiculously persistent passive effect.
  • Weaver - These are actually really strong right now and I'm not really sure why I don't see them being used more often. I suppose it's because "Why roll Weaver when you could roll Tempest Aura Share?" But Weaver is on the verge of being OP if other things were to be nerfed.
  • Necro - Kind of fell out but you know what? It's where it should be for a core spec. Though I do have to say that Vampiric Rituals needs to be put right back where it once was. It was a bad idea to remove that trait and tinker with wells. It removed an entire category of niche builds that many people really enjoyed the feel of.
  • Reaper - Too strong right now. Though I feel like this is more of a symptom of the disease that is Tempest Shocking Aura Share. The Reaper became super OP when he's running around with Shocking Aura all of the time in team fights. That's pretty much exactly what happened. If Shock Aura was nerfed, leave Reaper as is. It's in a good place.
  • Scourge - Exactly where it should be. Leave it as is.

Just my opinions. I feel like if the actual problems were addressed next time around rather than a stir the bucket approach, we'd have a good balanced meta on our hands.

Actually scrapper is looking like our new op side noder, renegade is looking to be op as either a shiro jalis roamer or at times mallyx jalis team fighter and scourge is looking to be better than core but still maybe second to reaper unless we are talking ranked or mini seasons where scourge is definitely better. Decap spam core engi is also being used a tiny bit

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

  • Daredevil - Balanced. Leave it alone.Yes so balanced it's mandatory in any team.

  • Mirage - Needs its 2nd dodge back and compensation for losing expertise stat.Honestly aside from gs power mirage, 1 dodge is fine. Mirage needs other fixes.They should reduce condi autos from clones to no damage and make clone ambushes weak (clone ambushes should be distraction + utility like vuln/cripple/fury/might only). After this they should make IH baseline.

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@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:You know what, on a different note, here is a list of class balance commentary:

  • War - Should stay the same as it is now. It's in a good place balance wise/feel wise.
  • Spellbreaker - Same as War. If it weren't for OP classes, Spellbreaker feels good to play and play against.
  • Berserker - It's actually not bad in the absence of the current OP classes. Don't feel like it's sitting in a cherry spot though.
  • Guard - Needs either a damage or sustain shave. Should stay the way it is other than that. It feels good to play right now.
  • Dragonhunter - I feel like it's balanced nowadays, but underused due to presence of broken classes. Though it isn't in a sweet spot.
  • Firebrand - It's right where it should be for once. Leave it alone.
  • Rev - Never see it in play, no idea
  • Herald - Needs a decrese in its teleportation frequency and it would be balanced. Leave it as is.
  • Renegade - Feels balanced at times. Other times I feel like Kalla needs reviewing. I don't know Ren enough to really comment.
  • Engi - Only reason it's not being used is due to how strong Scrapper/Holo are right now. Wouldn't say it's in a sweet spot though.
  • Scrapper - Balanced. It would see a lot more play if it weren't for other super specs.
  • Holo - It's packing way too much after flashbang. Imo forge needs to go to a 9s CD and flashbang needs to be removed.
  • Thief - Balanced outside of Deadly Arts line as usual. Leave everything else alone.
  • Daredevil - Balanced. Leave it alone.
  • Deadeye - 1/2 a step away from no longer playable. If you don't want to give it back its damage, give it some passive sustain that comes from DE trait line abilities so it's at least playable in spvp.
  • Ranger - Balanced. Leave it alone. Some would say it fell out, but that's only because of the presence of OP things. If those things were nerfed, Ranger would be sitting in a nice sweet spot. Even the way core ranger plays right now, is how it should have always felt.
  • Druid - In a bad place. See the link in my signature about Druid competitive suggestions.
  • Soulbeast - Balanced. Leave it alone. If the god tier specs were nerfed, Soulbeast would be sitting in a sweet spot. And aside from what many people may say, I actually agree with the no pet swap drawback.
  • Mes - Balanced if in a world without god tier specs. It actually feels good to play at this point. Leave it alone, nerf the out of control specs.
  • Chrono - ^ same as Mes
  • Mirage - Needs its 2nd dodge back and compensation for losing expertise stat.
  • Ele - Kind of weak tbh. Tempest & Weaver provide really really powerful mechanics that Ele simply does not have access to.
  • Tempest - Shocking Aura seriously needs to be heavily nerfed. The CC could be changed to a 1/2 daze and it would be functional. It does not need to be a 1s stun for such a ridiculously persistent passive effect.
  • Weaver - These are actually really strong right now and I'm not really sure why I don't see them being used more often. I suppose it's because "Why roll Weaver when you could roll Tempest Aura Share?" But Weaver is on the verge of being OP if other things were to be nerfed.
  • Necro - Kind of fell out but you know what? It's where it should be for a core spec. Though I do have to say that Vampiric Rituals needs to be put right back where it once was. It was a bad idea to remove that trait and tinker with wells. It removed an entire category of niche builds that many people really enjoyed the feel of.
  • Reaper - Too strong right now. Though I feel like this is more of a symptom of the disease that is Tempest Shocking Aura Share. The Reaper became super OP when he's running around with Shocking Aura all of the time in team fights. That's pretty much exactly what happened. If Shock Aura was nerfed, leave Reaper as is. It's in a good place.
  • Scourge - Exactly where it should be. Leave it as is.

Just my opinions. I feel like if the actual problems were addressed next time around rather than a stir the bucket approach, we'd have a good balanced meta on our hands.

Shocking aura suggestion is fair. Daredevil will be too strong if rev and holo are nerfed. Need to look at blind spammability so their is more counterplay to a thief trying to run you down. Everything else is my viewpoints as well.

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You guys are getting too lost in what is a passive CC. Point is it is very minimum. We are in a CC meta not cuz of passive CC but cuz most classes can drop 3-5 CC in under 30 secs, of which many are AOE. This was countered by stability (Which itself was countered by boon rip), but Anet new dev does not know what the fuck he is doing, so he took a swipe at Stability and CC breaks. And instead of cutting down CC, especially AOE and unblockable, he instead removed their damage. As if that matters at all, since most of them did abysmal damage anyway.

We are not condi meta. We are not in power meta. We are in a tanky CC meta. I wish we would go back to high damage meta. It was way more fun than this dumb slug fest.

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@Supreme.3164 said:

@"Ragnar.4257" said:Oh dear.
  1. We aren't in a condi meta. The fact that there are handful of viable condi builds amongst the endless sea of power builds, doesn't mean condi meta. I see more power revs than condi revs these days, warriors on the rare occasion you see them are power, guardians are split 50/50 between power and condi atm, as are rangers, holos/scrappers are power, thieves are mostly power atm, necro is split 50/50 between power reapers and condi core/scourge, eles are mostly either playing support tempest or LR, and mesmers atm appear to be playing hybrid. Where is the condi meta? It seems like a pretty healthy mixture to me.
  2. Exactly what passive CC are you talking about? And you say it's been added..... what was added? Apart from Flashbang. Shocking aura access is the same as its been since HoT release. None of the CC that scourge or FB do is 'passive'. If the issue is just with Flashbang and shocking-aura (it's debatable whether shocking aura is "passive" since it requires deliberate activation) then just say so.
  3. You got supports 100% wrong here. The reason all "supports" at the moment are more like cc/tank hybrids, is that a purely support focused build is not viable at the moment. If you try and play a pure healing/boon guardian, or a pure healing tempest, or a pure healing druid, scrapper, ventari, you'll fail miserably. To be worth a player slot you also have to be providing heavy CC or moderate damage on top of heals. If you can't provide those, then an additional DPS player is preferable to a pure support.

I never said we were in a condi meta. I said we were in a condi heavy meta. Reread it.
  1. Thieves are nearly 75% PD Condi in NA and they are played often. Even in ATs good teams stack them lately, which is obnoxious. I had recently posted a screenshot of my team against Vaans' team in the final round of an AT. We had 4 PD Thieves in the match. This is where the difference is between EU players saying that condi isn't that big of a thing, but NA players complaining about too much condi. Outside of that yeah, it's nearly 50/50 power & condi play. But that doesn't change my point of view that condi heavy metas have bad dynamic.
  2. What passive CC am I talking about? Exactly what I said in the OP post. And yes, Shocking Aura is as passive as it gets. The Tempest itself casts it frequently and then after it is cast it lingers passively and auto CCs when players attempt attacks. Now when we're talking Aura Share, OTHER PLAYERS ARE DOING NOTHING to benefit Shocking Aura Share which once it goes onto them, it passively lingers there, interrupting enemies who attempt attacks around them. That's pretty much the epitome of passive CC. I don't understand how you can try to argue that.
  3. About Supports - I don't care if the Supports are Full-Support, Hybrid-Support, or Berserker Amulet-Support. The fact of the matter is that regardless of what ratio of Offense to Defense they are running on the build, they're still pumping out over-tweaked support whereas other classes don't have support at all. You fail to mention that things like Shocking Aura Share with Lightning Rod actually work better with high DPS for its support factor. And how things like condi cleansing & prot spam & team stab & bubbles for proj reflection type support, works exactly the same whether a Full-Support build or a Berserker-Support build. The only thing different on a Full-Support build really, is heal factor when someone is choosing to run something like Mender. Right now in this meta, Supports are optimizing for high damage with damage mitigation techniques, rather than raw healing. This style of support is showing to be much stronger and proving that my statement holds true when I said that: "Supports are too strong right now" regardless of why or how. I don't understand what your point in your 3) was, as if it were trying to avoid this fact.

Shocking aura is not passive at all , you don't get passively stunned unless you attack the ele
exactly
like full counter that you consider "heavy telegraph"; furthermore the aura is plenty visible. Since launch auras have worked "on hit" and full counter can be used way more frequently than SA seen as it's on a 8s CD

If I put down a symbol then the tempest uses shock aura and runs into my symbol, I get stunned. I continue to get stunned if it AOE's shock aura onto more people and am basically stunlocked from CC I had to ""predict"" coming by literally not pressing my highest damaging ability. Shock aura is completely broken and passive, and it's counter play is simply not playing the game at all.

Not playing GW2 isn't good counterplay for an ability btw.

Shocking aura has been here since launch ..which was 8 years ago, that was plenty of time to learn how to counterplay the skill :

1.The stun is only
melee
  1. You have stability
  2. Only last 4s and stun once every 2s for 1s
  3. Does not reflect or block incoming dmg be it condi or direct

Saying that Shocking aura stops you from playing the game is a pompous grossly exaggeration to say the least

You can't say "x has been here since launch" when they just did a complete revamp to the game and gutted/removed so much stuff in Feb. The feb patch is basically GW2: Reloaded, so yes, things that weren't too strong will suddenly be too strong now when you REVAMP THE ENTIRE GAME.

Also, please take a long hard look at how much stability access people have now. It's basically non-existent, so putting that as a point is basically backing up my argument that the game is completely different now, and things that used to counter it no longer exist.That's kind of how game changes work.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"Ragnar.4257" said:Oh dear.
  1. We aren't in a condi meta. The fact that there are handful of viable condi builds amongst the endless sea of power builds, doesn't mean condi meta. I see more power revs than condi revs these days, warriors on the rare occasion you see them are power, guardians are split 50/50 between power and condi atm, as are rangers, holos/scrappers are power, thieves are mostly power atm, necro is split 50/50 between power reapers and condi core/scourge, eles are mostly either playing support tempest or LR, and mesmers atm appear to be playing hybrid. Where is the condi meta? It seems like a pretty healthy mixture to me.
  2. Exactly what passive CC are you talking about? And you say it's been added..... what was added? Apart from Flashbang. Shocking aura access is the same as its been since HoT release. None of the CC that scourge or FB do is 'passive'. If the issue is just with Flashbang and shocking-aura (it's debatable whether shocking aura is "passive" since it requires deliberate activation) then just say so.
  3. You got supports 100% wrong here. The reason all "supports" at the moment are more like cc/tank hybrids, is that a purely support focused build is not viable at the moment. If you try and play a pure healing/boon guardian, or a pure healing tempest, or a pure healing druid, scrapper, ventari, you'll fail miserably. To be worth a player slot you also have to be providing heavy CC or moderate damage on top of heals. If you can't provide those, then an additional DPS player is preferable to a pure support.

I never said we were in a condi meta. I said we were in a condi heavy meta. Reread it.
  1. Thieves are nearly 75% PD Condi in NA and they are played often. Even in ATs good teams stack them lately, which is obnoxious. I had recently posted a screenshot of my team against Vaans' team in the final round of an AT. We had 4 PD Thieves in the match. This is where the difference is between EU players saying that condi isn't that big of a thing, but NA players complaining about too much condi. Outside of that yeah, it's nearly 50/50 power & condi play. But that doesn't change my point of view that condi heavy metas have bad dynamic.
  2. What passive CC am I talking about? Exactly what I said in the OP post. And yes, Shocking Aura is as passive as it gets. The Tempest itself casts it frequently and then after it is cast it lingers passively and auto CCs when players attempt attacks. Now when we're talking Aura Share, OTHER PLAYERS ARE DOING NOTHING to benefit Shocking Aura Share which once it goes onto them, it passively lingers there, interrupting enemies who attempt attacks around them. That's pretty much the epitome of passive CC. I don't understand how you can try to argue that.
  3. About Supports - I don't care if the Supports are Full-Support, Hybrid-Support, or Berserker Amulet-Support. The fact of the matter is that regardless of what ratio of Offense to Defense they are running on the build, they're still pumping out over-tweaked support whereas other classes don't have support at all. You fail to mention that things like Shocking Aura Share with Lightning Rod actually work better with high DPS for its support factor. And how things like condi cleansing & prot spam & team stab & bubbles for proj reflection type support, works exactly the same whether a Full-Support build or a Berserker-Support build. The only thing different on a Full-Support build really, is heal factor when someone is choosing to run something like Mender. Right now in this meta, Supports are optimizing for high damage with damage mitigation techniques, rather than raw healing. This style of support is showing to be much stronger and proving that my statement holds true when I said that: "Supports are too strong right now" regardless of why or how. I don't understand what your point in your 3) was, as if it were trying to avoid this fact.

Shocking aura is not passive at all , you don't get passively stunned unless you attack the ele
exactly
like full counter that you consider "heavy telegraph"; furthermore the aura is plenty visible. Since launch auras have worked "on hit" and full counter can be used way more frequently than SA seen as it's on a 8s CD

If I put down a symbol then the tempest uses shock aura and runs into my symbol, I get stunned. I continue to get stunned if it AOE's shock aura onto more people and am basically stunlocked from CC I had to ""predict"" coming by literally not pressing my highest damaging ability. Shock aura is completely broken and passive, and it's counter play is simply not playing the game at all.

Not playing GW2 isn't good counterplay for an ability btw.

Shocking aura has been here since launch ..which was 8 years ago, that was plenty of time to learn how to counterplay the skill :

1.The stun is only
melee
  1. You have stability
  2. Only last 4s and stun once every 2s for 1s
  3. Does not reflect or block incoming dmg be it condi or direct

Saying that Shocking aura stops you from playing the game is a pompous grossly exaggeration to say the least
  1. No it isn't. When I try to use Lightning Reflexes while in range of Shocking Aura, it prevents me from using my evade and nullifies the point of the stun break to begin with. The same goes for other non melee damage sources.
  2. You reference Shocking Aura being in the game for 8 years and this is true. But in those initial years, it was convenient for every build to run as much Stability as they could. And later years, +conc stat amulets were introduced along with runes that added wildly large amounts of flat +boon durations. During these years, a single proc of Stability with say 10 stacks, would last like 15s to 20s. This is why no one noticed Shocking Aura during those years. AFTER the legend nerf patch that massively lowered DPS, removed tons of stun breaks, removed stability procs, removed +conc stat amulets, and hard nerfed +boon duration runes, players now have access to roughly 2/3rds of the stun breaks they previously had, and only 1/3rd of the Stability access & uptime. This makes it so that for many classes/builds, it simply isn't worth bringing Stability at all because the procs are infrequent and short duration. Utility skills slots & traits are often better used in other ways. <- These are the reasons why Shocking Aura is a problem now, post legend nerf patch.
  3. "Only lasts 4s and stun once every 2s for 1s" Yeah against 5 opponents. Each opponent can be struck by Shocking Aura once per 2s. So with that 4s of Shocking aura while in a team fight, it can potentially land 10x instant unavoidable interrupts against 5 opponents, for a total of 10s worth of stun collectively and on only a 25s CD. And that 25s CD is for just the actual normal skill, not countering traits or abilities or other sources that cause it to happen much more frequently. Dude that's way too much CC to be healthy for the game after so much counter play vs. CC was removed from the game. And that's not even mentioning the entirely passive nature of it.
  4. Doesn't reflect or block damage? Dude it interrupts incoming damage. That's like equal to reflects or blocks if not better, because it is CCing opponents so they themselves are being setup to be counter pressured. Not sure if you're being serious with your responses or not tbh.

No one said Shocking Aura stops them from playing the game. People say it bogs the game dynamic down, and it does.
  1. It is melee range, this is a fact
  2. and 3. How people run their builds got nothing to do with what is available in game in terms of counterplay , as a matter of fact elementalist was the most affected by the removal of stability/stunbreak, they removed stability from weaver and doubled the CD of Twist of fate; the stability uptime of : rangers, warriors, guardians, engineers is basically the same here as far as I can remember, yes Soulbeast had Dolyak stance doubled in CD and Corona burst/Foot in the grave removal of stability....other than that there has been no massive reduction in the number of stunbreaks and stability uptime
  3. Does not reflect or block damage as fact, it interrupts melee attacks from opponents lacking stability

Shocking aura works as deterrent and it does its job, now I have seen the idea of changing stun to daze, that would work too.....anything that doesn't change the defensive nature of the skill would work.

As long there is counterplay is available in game...you can't really expect the game to be balanced based on what you find "convenient" to run on your build

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@Shiyo.3578 said:

@"Ragnar.4257" said:Oh dear.
  1. We aren't in a condi meta. The fact that there are handful of viable condi builds amongst the endless sea of power builds, doesn't mean condi meta. I see more power revs than condi revs these days, warriors on the rare occasion you see them are power, guardians are split 50/50 between power and condi atm, as are rangers, holos/scrappers are power, thieves are mostly power atm, necro is split 50/50 between power reapers and condi core/scourge, eles are mostly either playing support tempest or LR, and mesmers atm appear to be playing hybrid. Where is the condi meta? It seems like a pretty healthy mixture to me.
  2. Exactly what passive CC are you talking about? And you say it's been added..... what was added? Apart from Flashbang. Shocking aura access is the same as its been since HoT release. None of the CC that scourge or FB do is 'passive'. If the issue is just with Flashbang and shocking-aura (it's debatable whether shocking aura is "passive" since it requires deliberate activation) then just say so.
  3. You got supports 100% wrong here. The reason all "supports" at the moment are more like cc/tank hybrids, is that a purely support focused build is not viable at the moment. If you try and play a pure healing/boon guardian, or a pure healing tempest, or a pure healing druid, scrapper, ventari, you'll fail miserably. To be worth a player slot you also have to be providing heavy CC or moderate damage on top of heals. If you can't provide those, then an additional DPS player is preferable to a pure support.

I never said we were in a condi meta. I said we were in a condi heavy meta. Reread it.
  1. Thieves are nearly 75% PD Condi in NA and they are played often. Even in ATs good teams stack them lately, which is obnoxious. I had recently posted a screenshot of my team against Vaans' team in the final round of an AT. We had 4 PD Thieves in the match. This is where the difference is between EU players saying that condi isn't that big of a thing, but NA players complaining about too much condi. Outside of that yeah, it's nearly 50/50 power & condi play. But that doesn't change my point of view that condi heavy metas have bad dynamic.
  2. What passive CC am I talking about? Exactly what I said in the OP post. And yes, Shocking Aura is as passive as it gets. The Tempest itself casts it frequently and then after it is cast it lingers passively and auto CCs when players attempt attacks. Now when we're talking Aura Share, OTHER PLAYERS ARE DOING NOTHING to benefit Shocking Aura Share which once it goes onto them, it passively lingers there, interrupting enemies who attempt attacks around them. That's pretty much the epitome of passive CC. I don't understand how you can try to argue that.
  3. About Supports - I don't care if the Supports are Full-Support, Hybrid-Support, or Berserker Amulet-Support. The fact of the matter is that regardless of what ratio of Offense to Defense they are running on the build, they're still pumping out over-tweaked support whereas other classes don't have support at all. You fail to mention that things like Shocking Aura Share with Lightning Rod actually work better with high DPS for its support factor. And how things like condi cleansing & prot spam & team stab & bubbles for proj reflection type support, works exactly the same whether a Full-Support build or a Berserker-Support build. The only thing different on a Full-Support build really, is heal factor when someone is choosing to run something like Mender. Right now in this meta, Supports are optimizing for high damage with damage mitigation techniques, rather than raw healing. This style of support is showing to be much stronger and proving that my statement holds true when I said that: "Supports are too strong right now" regardless of why or how. I don't understand what your point in your 3) was, as if it were trying to avoid this fact.

Shocking aura is not passive at all , you don't get passively stunned unless you attack the ele
exactly
like full counter that you consider "heavy telegraph"; furthermore the aura is plenty visible. Since launch auras have worked "on hit" and full counter can be used way more frequently than SA seen as it's on a 8s CD

If I put down a symbol then the tempest uses shock aura and runs into my symbol, I get stunned. I continue to get stunned if it AOE's shock aura onto more people and am basically stunlocked from CC I had to ""predict"" coming by literally not pressing my highest damaging ability. Shock aura is completely broken and passive, and it's counter play is simply not playing the game at all.

Not playing GW2 isn't good counterplay for an ability btw.

Shocking aura has been here since launch ..which was 8 years ago, that was plenty of time to learn how to counterplay the skill :

1.The stun is only
melee
  1. You have stability
  2. Only last 4s and stun once every 2s for 1s
  3. Does not reflect or block incoming dmg be it condi or direct

Saying that Shocking aura stops you from playing the game is a pompous grossly exaggeration to say the least

You can't say "x has been here since launch" when they just did a complete revamp to the game and gutted/removed so much stuff in Feb. The feb patch is basically GW2: Reloaded, so yes, things that weren't too strong will suddenly be too strong now when you
REVAMP THE ENTIRE GAME
.

Also, please take a long hard look at how much stability access people have now. It's basically non-existent, so putting that as a point is basically backing up my argument that the game is completely different now, and things that used to counter it no longer exist.That's kind of how game changes work.

Nothing that allows counterplay to CC has been gutted, they did not remove stunbreaks as far as I can remember and Stability uptime was reduced by a tad.....amusingly enough : elementalist was the class most affected when they removed stability from the stance GM trait, other professions have been left almost unaffected

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@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:You know what, on a different note, here is a list of class balance commentary:

  • War - Should stay the same as it is now. It's in a good place balance wise/feel wise.
  • Spellbreaker - Same as War. If it weren't for OP classes, Spellbreaker feels good to play and play against.
  • Berserker - It's actually not bad in the absence of the current OP classes. Don't feel like it's sitting in a cherry spot though.
  • Guard - Needs either a damage or sustain shave. Should stay the way it is other than that. It feels good to play right now.
  • Dragonhunter - I feel like it's balanced nowadays, but underused due to presence of broken classes. Though it isn't in a sweet spot.
  • Firebrand - It's right where it should be for once. Leave it alone.
  • Rev - Never see it in play, no idea
  • Herald - Needs a decrese in its teleportation frequency and it would be balanced. Leave it as is.
  • Renegade - Feels balanced at times. Other times I feel like Kalla needs reviewing. I don't know Ren enough to really comment.
  • Engi - Only reason it's not being used is due to how strong Scrapper/Holo are right now. Wouldn't say it's in a sweet spot though.
  • Scrapper - Balanced. It would see a lot more play if it weren't for other super specs.
  • Holo - It's packing way too much after flashbang. Imo forge needs to go to a 9s CD and flashbang needs to be removed.
  • Thief - Balanced outside of Deadly Arts line as usual. Leave everything else alone.
  • Daredevil - Balanced. Leave it alone.
  • Deadeye - 1/2 a step away from no longer playable. If you don't want to give it back its damage, give it some passive sustain that comes from DE trait line abilities so it's at least playable in spvp.
  • Ranger - Balanced. Leave it alone. Some would say it fell out, but that's only because of the presence of OP things. If those things were nerfed, Ranger would be sitting in a nice sweet spot. Even the way core ranger plays right now, is how it should have always felt.
  • Druid - In a bad place. See the link in my signature about Druid competitive suggestions.
  • Soulbeast - Balanced. Leave it alone. If the god tier specs were nerfed, Soulbeast would be sitting in a sweet spot. And aside from what many people may say, I actually agree with the no pet swap drawback.
  • Mes - Balanced if in a world without god tier specs. It actually feels good to play at this point. Leave it alone, nerf the out of control specs.
  • Chrono - ^ same as Mes
  • Mirage - Needs its 2nd dodge back and compensation for losing expertise stat.
  • Ele - Kind of weak tbh. Tempest & Weaver provide really really powerful mechanics that Ele simply does not have access to.
  • Tempest - Shocking Aura seriously needs to be heavily nerfed. The CC could be changed to a 1/2 daze and it would be functional. It does not need to be a 1s stun for such a ridiculously persistent passive effect.
  • Weaver - These are actually really strong right now and I'm not really sure why I don't see them being used more often. I suppose it's because "Why roll Weaver when you could roll Tempest Aura Share?" But Weaver is on the verge of being OP if other things were to be nerfed.
  • Necro - Kind of fell out but you know what? It's where it should be for a core spec. Though I do have to say that Vampiric Rituals needs to be put right back where it once was. It was a bad idea to remove that trait and tinker with wells. It removed an entire category of niche builds that many people really enjoyed the feel of.
  • Reaper - Too strong right now. Though I feel like this is more of a symptom of the disease that is Tempest Shocking Aura Share. The Reaper became super OP when he's running around with Shocking Aura all of the time in team fights. That's pretty much exactly what happened. If Shock Aura was nerfed, leave Reaper as is. It's in a good place.
  • Scourge - Exactly where it should be. Leave it as is.

Just my opinions. I feel like if the actual problems were addressed next time around rather than a stir the bucket approach, we'd have a good balanced meta on our hands.

Don't want to comment too much but....1.Guardian sustain is not nearly as high as you make it sounds2.Weaver is not used ...because simply it's weak, even more in PvP than WvW where still doesn't see much play ( not even staff weaver is used anymore ), the number of people playing eles has drastically reduced over the years and if my words are not enough, here are some more info from @Blamthrax , supposedly one of the few TOP eles

https://arenalabsgw2.podbean.com/e/episode-7-the-last-weaver-feat-blam/

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@"Shiyo.3578" said:You can't say "x has been here since launch" when they just did a complete revamp to the game and gutted/removed so much stuff in Feb. The feb patch is basically GW2: Reloaded, so yes, things that weren't too strong will suddenly be too strong now when you REVAMP THE ENTIRE GAME.

Funny how we had CI Mirage pre february patch, and CI was a trait that has been around for a long time as well.

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@Tayga.3192 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:You can't say "x has been here since launch" when they just did a complete revamp to the game and gutted/removed so much stuff in Feb. The feb patch is basically GW2: Reloaded, so yes, things that weren't too strong will suddenly be too strong now when you
REVAMP THE ENTIRE GAME
.

Funny how we had CI Mirage pre february patch, and CI was a trait that has been around for a long time as well.

Main difference I believe is that C.mirage was a duellist build and CI allowed very strong ranged pressure..the keyword here is ranged

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@Tayga.3192 said:

  • Daredevil - Balanced. Leave it alone.Yes so balanced it's mandatory in any team.
  • Mirage - Needs its 2nd dodge back and compensation for losing expertise stat.Honestly aside from gs power mirage, 1 dodge is fine. Mirage needs other fixes.They should reduce condi autos from clones to no damage and make clone ambushes weak (clone ambushes should be distraction + utility like vuln/cripple/fury/might only). After this they should make IH baseline.

Being meta doesnt mean it is not balanced , mesmer could be with portal

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@Tayga.3192 said:

@"wevh.2903" said:Being meta doesnt mean it is not balanced ,Yes I agree, but thief is more than "meta". Look at any competitive team, they have 4 anything and 1 thief in their team.

mesmer could be with portalYeah the ultimate "nobody uses" skill.

Ye but thats not bad , thief makes game fluid and counters slowly stuff , i mean ofc it is good af there is no way to negate it but i feel its role totally needed.

Also thief can co-exist with other roamer specs like power rev/nades holo or including mesmer. With portal i mean the not nerfed portal . This skills made pvp lot more competitive while making mesmer have some value over thief .

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@Supreme.3164 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:You know what, on a different note, here is a list of class balance commentary:
  • War - Should stay the same as it is now. It's in a good place balance wise/feel wise.
  • Spellbreaker - Same as War. If it weren't for OP classes, Spellbreaker feels good to play and play against.
  • Berserker - It's actually not bad in the absence of the current OP classes. Don't feel like it's sitting in a cherry spot though.
  • Guard - Needs either a damage or sustain shave. Should stay the way it is other than that. It feels good to play right now.
  • Dragonhunter - I feel like it's balanced nowadays, but underused due to presence of broken classes. Though it isn't in a sweet spot.
  • Firebrand - It's right where it should be for once. Leave it alone.
  • Rev - Never see it in play, no idea
  • Herald - Needs a decrese in its teleportation frequency and it would be balanced. Leave it as is.
  • Renegade - Feels balanced at times. Other times I feel like Kalla needs reviewing. I don't know Ren enough to really comment.
  • Engi - Only reason it's not being used is due to how strong Scrapper/Holo are right now. Wouldn't say it's in a sweet spot though.
  • Scrapper - Balanced. It would see a lot more play if it weren't for other super specs.
  • Holo - It's packing way too much after flashbang. Imo forge needs to go to a 9s CD and flashbang needs to be removed.
  • Thief - Balanced outside of Deadly Arts line as usual. Leave everything else alone.
  • Daredevil - Balanced. Leave it alone.
  • Deadeye - 1/2 a step away from no longer playable. If you don't want to give it back its damage, give it some passive sustain that comes from DE trait line abilities so it's at least playable in spvp.
  • Ranger - Balanced. Leave it alone. Some would say it fell out, but that's only because of the presence of OP things. If those things were nerfed, Ranger would be sitting in a nice sweet spot. Even the way core ranger plays right now, is how it should have always felt.
  • Druid - In a bad place. See the link in my signature about Druid competitive suggestions.
  • Soulbeast - Balanced. Leave it alone. If the god tier specs were nerfed, Soulbeast would be sitting in a sweet spot. And aside from what many people may say, I actually agree with the no pet swap drawback.
  • Mes - Balanced if in a world without god tier specs. It actually feels good to play at this point. Leave it alone, nerf the out of control specs.
  • Chrono - ^ same as Mes
  • Mirage - Needs its 2nd dodge back and compensation for losing expertise stat.
  • Ele - Kind of weak tbh. Tempest & Weaver provide really really powerful mechanics that Ele simply does not have access to.
  • Tempest - Shocking Aura seriously needs to be heavily nerfed. The CC could be changed to a 1/2 daze and it would be functional. It does not need to be a 1s stun for such a ridiculously persistent passive effect.
  • Weaver - These are actually really strong right now and I'm not really sure why I don't see them being used more often. I suppose it's because "Why roll Weaver when you could roll Tempest Aura Share?" But Weaver is on the verge of being OP if other things were to be nerfed.
  • Necro - Kind of fell out but you know what? It's where it should be for a core spec. Though I do have to say that Vampiric Rituals needs to be put right back where it once was. It was a bad idea to remove that trait and tinker with wells. It removed an entire category of niche builds that many people really enjoyed the feel of.
  • Reaper - Too strong right now. Though I feel like this is more of a symptom of the disease that is Tempest Shocking Aura Share. The Reaper became super OP when he's running around with Shocking Aura all of the time in team fights. That's pretty much exactly what happened. If Shock Aura was nerfed, leave Reaper as is. It's in a good place.
  • Scourge - Exactly where it should be. Leave it as is.

Just my opinions. I feel like if the actual problems were addressed next time around rather than a stir the bucket approach, we'd have a good balanced meta on our hands.

Don't want to comment too much but....1.Guardian sustain is not nearly as high as you make it sounds2.Weaver is not used ...because simply it's weak, even more in PvP than WvW where still doesn't see much play ( not even staff weaver is used anymore ), the number of people playing eles has drastically reduced over the years and if my words are not enough, here are some more info from @Blamthrax , supposedly one of the few TOP eles

I think weaver is a better duelist than it is an effective build for conquest or arenas, but even there the handicaps of this design are so ridiculous it almost has to be OP everywhere else to compensate. No range, no mobility, poor stability/stunbreak access, poor access to movement-impairing effects on top of being pretty bad at handling being focused. It can sustain 1v1 fairly well, but outside of duels against other builds with poor mobility that like to fight at melee range, it's a complete clown show. You have no options available to you to stay on enemies or slow them down. You just chase them around eating ranged damage and hope they get greedy enough to allow you to get close enough to light them up.

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