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No, HoT should not be further nerfed. It is not meant to be the regular power fantasy.


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Originally a response posted under the thread "HoT = Dark Souls ? Casual Gamer perspective.". Though since I took the time to write this up, I think I might as well start another thread here and see how people feel about it.

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Late for the discussion, and I do not mean to criticize, but I think the "Dark Souls" single-player-game analogue tells something.

For me, the entire HoT experience was about having a group of people (be it friends, guildies or random pugs) working, exploring, fighting and surviving together in a hazardous area toward common objectives. The contents never seem to me intended to be solo-ed, and the difficulty actually promotes collaboration between players—just look at how much more often someone puts on a commander/mentor tag in Heart of Maguuma compared with in other areas, or how much more often someone request for help in map chat.

And while this is all gonna sound like "it's not a bug but a feature", do hear me out.

The expansion is supposed to be the anti-power-fantasy after the huge fiasco the Pact just experienced during the initial stage of their expedition into Maguuma, where you end up having to navigate yourself through debris, wreckage, and uncharted territory of dense tropical vegetation. You are supposed to feel powerless. The expansion is the GW2 version of Vietnam War, where the military might and air superiority ultimately fail, and you as a soldier on the ground alone with a broken command chain (or rather, at least in the story, the second-in-command with a shattered force) have to figure out everything yourself. That means, to communicate, to organize and to coordinate and work with whatever of the army is left—or in effect, marking yourself on the map and speaking up in party/guild/map channel a lot.

And to further add to that: the VB night meta (and also the daytime meta before rework) is in my opinion one of the best community content in the game. Yes, compared with other contents, it takes massive effort to coordinate when everyone basically scatters all over the map. Heck, it might even take a guild just to do that. But there is also beauty in it. In fact, all HoT maps have the same vibe.

And despite the difficulty, players make progress too. I do not mean just that you gradually learn new skills and traits along the struggle, but in a greater sense. For example, in VB, players have 5 outposts to guard, each with multiple camp sites around to be defended. Everything requires organization by the community. In AB and TD though, things are getting better and players are separated into only 4 divisions for the meta events. In DS there are only 3 lanes left (though originally planned to be 4 and later cut to 3 due to budget and schedule limitation). The effort ArenaNet put in to tell the story via all possible means to me is just a rarity in all MMORPGs, and as long as one gets through the initial stage, they can definitely appreciate it.

All these being said though, I did have friends who could not stand the frustration and quit the game entirely. So in another way I can feel the pain. HoT was certainly not the best daily recreation after work, considering just how much frustration it can bring, but probably something to be emerged in for several dedicated hours, say during the weekend, to properly experience it. After all, this was the first time ever in GW2 that the open world feels dangerous, and the content was definitely not designed for players who prefer to solo everything they encounter. However, it still seems to me that to further reduce the difficulty—be it the mobs, the navigation, the hero point or the boss fight—would only destroy the vibe that the game tries to tell through every mechanic and interaction with the players as part of the storytelling.

So, please, don't make HoT maps any bit less hardcore. It is supposed to be this way and should remain as it is.

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Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:

  • play Orr
  • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
  • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
  • enter Verdant Brink
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Ah, sorry you are not getting the content that YOU want. If just fine for what I would consider most players. I am sure that there are many ways you can make content harder for yourself without negatively impacting others. I also wonder what insight into the devs mind you have to proclaim what hot is 'supposed' to be. Drizzlewood might be more to your liking, (not mine btw).

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I agree with the basics of what the OP posted.

I still struggle to understand why people invest in a MMO then complain about difficulty when they can’t solo all of it.

I mean, I have no problem with anyone running things solo. That’s your choice.

But because you [insert personal reason here] there is an expectation that the content be made easier to allow it to be solo’d.

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@Blude.6812 said:Ah, sorry you are not getting the content that YOU want. If just fine for what I would consider most players. I am sure that there are many ways you can make content harder for yourself without negatively impacting others. I also wonder what insight into the devs mind you have to proclaim what hot is 'supposed' to be.

Uh, No thanks. I already got the content that I want. And I am at least for now satisfied with its current difficulty with neither the intention to take it a step further nor by doing so to negatively impact others' experience. And the supposition is clearly based on internal coherence, reference and logic instead of telepathic nonsense, so you won't have a sleepless night with your restless mind wondering a hypothetical question.

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I played most of HoT solo (No friends, no guild. Still had help from random people!) before it got nerfed. And honestly, I loved it. The maps were pretty intimidating at first, but I really felt like this was what I paid for in an expansion. I realize that with less people playing HoT they needed to nerf it so it was manageable, but I think the nerfing needs to stop there. I went and did a hero point I remember having trouble with and I did it with only one other person when before you would definitely need more than that. If it's nerfed any more it'll be a lvl 70-80 area.

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Agreed. I dont think HoT needs to be nerfed any more than it has been.

The only issue I've ever really had with HoT is how the metas are on a set schedule instead of just progressing as you complete stuff. I understand that VB kinda has to be on a achedule due to the day night cycle, but AB and TD really feel like they should just move on to the big finale meta once you complete all the event chains. I guess it makes sense for DS to be on a timer because of the way it works but I honestly feel like Dragonfall is a superior version of the same sort of idea simply because it's not on a schedule.I guess the schedule makes it so you always know when you can just hop in, but a lot of times it feels like people just show up for the main event and mostly ignore the event chains because they aren't really necessary. But I digress because that complaint has nothing to do with the difficulty of the content itself :P

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@Blude.6812 said:Ah, sorry you are not getting the content that YOU want. If just fine for what I would consider most players. I am sure that there are many ways you can make content harder for yourself without negatively impacting others. I also wonder what insight into the devs mind you have to proclaim what hot is 'supposed' to be. Drizzlewood might be more to your liking, (not mine btw).

Considering that HoT has been out for 5 years I believe it's pretty obvious that HoT, at it's current state, is exactly how it's supposed to be like.

I think you misunderstood OPs post. The whole point of the post is to say that things SHOULDN'T change.

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TBH - the people who find HoT too difficult could always just group up for HoT (not hard, GW2 has made group play very easy even when not in a party). Most of the things you "need" to do are party based anyway.

(You'd think after playing Core they'd have a good grasp of their skills - but I suppose we can blame core's lack of difficulty all the way to the end for that - there really should be some ramp-up).

Right now, we have:Core: Insanely easy, trivial.PoF: Middle-of-the-Road.HoT: Challenging (I miss the old HoT).

Which I think is decent. People can go where their skill-level takes them, until they advance a bit and are ready for the next stage.

Hopefully the next xpac will be something leaning towards HoT or (even better) more challenging than current HoT.

This isn't even a casual thing. I'm a casual. I work a full-time job. I just enjoy a challenge, rather than basically watching the game play itself and rolling my face on the keyboard. Why would I even bother playing, if it wasn't challenging?

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@Strider Pj.2193 said:I agree with the basics of what the OP posted.

I still struggle to understand why people invest in a MMO then complain about difficulty when they can’t solo all of it.

I mean, I have no problem with anyone running things solo. That’s your choice.

But because you [insert personal reason here] there is an expectation that the content be made easier to allow it to be solo’d.

There is NOTHING easier than getting into a massive zerg where you are just a part of the faceless mass, blasting everything without even the slightest chance of failure (unless it's some map clearing thing, but that isn't difficult, just a poor mechanic). If you die, it doesn't matter, the event itself won't fail. Only reason it could fail, is that over half the zerg is AFKing (which is the norm, but still...)

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@Croc.1978 said:Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:

  • play Orr
  • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
  • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
  • enter Verdant Brink

Other than that, play a bit of PvP.

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@Yggranya.5201 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:I agree with the basics of what the OP posted.

I still struggle to understand why people invest in a MMO then complain about difficulty when they can’t solo all of it.

I mean, I have no problem with anyone running things solo. That’s your choice.

But because you [insert personal reason here] there is an expectation that the content be made easier to allow it to be solo’d.

There is NOTHING easier than getting into a massive zerg where you are just a part of the faceless mass, blasting everything without even the slightest chance of failure (unless it's some map clearing thing, but that isn't difficult, just a poor mechanic). If you die, it doesn't matter, the event itself won't fail. Only reason it could fail, is that over half the zerg is AFKing (which is the norm, but still...)

That is correct.

It also is more reason not to nerf it for solo’s.

People generally (with the notable exceptions of young cats) are willing to jump in and assist if they see something going down.

And if someone doesn’t want help, wait until a meta happens on another map,

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Anything needed for basic main story progression should be doable by casual players in easy to get 'obvious' gear like soldiers.

Anything outside of that should be open season for varying levels of difficulty.

What this means is that I favor any part of open world that is 'off the main roads' being made harder... but anything that you must pass through to get to the next part of the 'story' being kept easy.

One of the great features of GW1 was the ability to turn on a hard mode - this only works for instanced content though - but it could be added to GW2 in exactly that way... the ability to replay any completed personal story, living story, story or explorable dungeon - on hard mode. Fractals already have a difficulty scale system so no need for it there.

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@Fueki.4753 said:

@"Virtuality.8351" said:I think the "Dark Souls" single-player-game analogue tells something.There is no Dark Souls analogy.Contrary to the claims of the masses that didn't even try to play it, Dark Souls is
not
about difficulty.

In fact, if you were to min-max Dark Souls the same way some people min-max MMORPGs / GW2 builds, there would be no difficulty left.You can 1 or 2 shot most bosses with min-maxxed builds.

Dark Souls players that want a challenge actually create the challenge themselves, by creating their own challenges (e.g. SL1 runs, only fist runs etc.).You barely see that in MMORPGs.

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I agree HoT maps should not be nerfed anymore than at present.

When I first arrived into the Jungle, boy was that a wake up call. Gear Check and Skill check in your face.

I leveled my first character by playing solo, no lvl 80 jump for me. So I thought I had a good idea how to play the game. HoT dropped that idea on its' head, stomped on it, shredded it and walked back into the jungle leaving me to wonder if I really wanted to respawn there.

I kept at it, improved my gear, learned my skills better and found what I enemies I could solo and those I needed to go after when more players were around. Heck those HP trains through the Jungle are very nice. I would usually tag along when I saw one and got what HP I could until the train outran me. No flying mount at that time. I did not let being unable to keep up with the train get me down, I kept playing and eventually got my character(s) to where they can hold their own in the jungle most of the time.

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@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:I agree with the basics of what the OP posted.

I still struggle to understand why people invest in a MMO then complain about difficulty when they can’t solo all of it.

I mean, I have no problem with anyone running things solo. That’s your choice.

But because you [insert personal reason here] there is an expectation that the content be made easier to allow it to be solo’d.

There is NOTHING easier than getting into a massive zerg where you are just a part of the faceless mass, blasting everything without even the slightest chance of failure (unless it's some map clearing thing, but that isn't difficult, just a poor mechanic). If you die, it doesn't matter, the event itself won't fail. Only reason it could fail, is that over half the zerg is AFKing (which is the norm, but still...)

That is correct.

It also is more reason not to nerf it for solo’s.

People generally (with the notable exceptions of young cats) are willing to jump in and assist if they see something going down.

And if someone doesn’t want help, wait until a meta happens on another map,

Because developers, of course, want to design the game for a wider audience, there really can't be too much difficulty, unless the game was specifically designed and advertised for that. Isn't the "challenge" the entire reason the raids exist? Would be pretty dumb to just say to perhaps most of the playerbase "open world isn't for you, unless you get a team together". It's true that when you do one thing, like raids, over and over it gets dull, but not like there are other options and that is what all thing in MMOs are anyway. More or less, just grinding.

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@"Yggranya.5201" said:Would be pretty dumb to just say to perhaps most of the playerbase "open world isn't for you, unless you get a team together".

That seems like an exceedingly low opinion — and exceedingly low expectations — of the average player.

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@ASP.8093 said:

@"Yggranya.5201" said:Would be pretty dumb to just say to perhaps most of the playerbase "open world isn't for you, unless you get a team together".

That seems like an exceedingly low opinion — and exceedingly low expectations — of the average player.

Well, nobody could AFK anymore. I guess that's something. Or if they do, no rewards as you die over and over, so it might inspire people to try and play properly at least. Or then they would just leave, which means i doubt anet would even consider doing anything like this. If it isn't clear: yes, my opinion on people in general is as low as it can get.

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Y'all are talking about HoT being nerfed 'more'. Has it been nerfed some already? Honestly I did not enjoy it and have not gone back to it in a couple years. Pretty much got my glider and left. If it has been nerfed, I may go check it out again.

~Edit~ but my main issue was not the critter difficulty but the horrid map layout. The multi level map, I can do without.

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