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Follow Up to my Original Post, "The Death of Thief"


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@Naqam a.6521 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@UNOwen.7132 lol you just say things that are wrong man.
  1. Rangers and Warriors do not outpace thief in a horizontal race. I don't understand how you can possibly argue with the breakdown that I presented.

Because the breakdown you presented is incorrect, leaves out a lot of things.
  1. You said that: "Out of combat, 33% or 50% doesnt make a difference" which is silly because in pvp you're always in combat. Even if we were talking out of combat, the DP Daredevil is still clearly faster. As much can be viewed from the breakdown.

We were talking about a horizontal race. That does not include in-combat. And if we talk out of combat, Ranger is clearly much faster, as you can see from the
corrected
breakdown. Oh and fun fact: If we were talking in-combat, warrior actually pulls ahead a lot, because they spend less time just running and more time in movement.
  1. Then you say: "Additionally in order to obtain anything close to permastealth, thief has to slow down a lot. Far more than they get from it. So, not a point." It's not about permastealth, it's about the small stealths like their heal skill, which is 24s CD traited for a 6s +50% movement, or Steal if it is traited to grant stealth with significantly large reduction in CD. Between just the heal and steal, not counting any other sources of stealth, a PD Core or DP dd is essentially getting 9s of +50% movement per 24s. That's something like 40% uptime of +50% movement my dude. So if they cycle the usage wisely, they use the porting during the 15s that the 50% movement is on CD, and run with the 50% movement for 9s while init is building back up. There is an extremely small margin of time where the thief has to WASD with only 33% Swift, very small margin of time. So yeah, that +50% movement from stealth is extremely significant in this breakdown, whether you look at from in combat or out.

"that's 50% movement on a class that can perma stealth". Quite literally what you wrote. Dont complain that I point out something you say yourself. Its not significant at all, because out of combat 33% and 50% is nearly identical (its a difference of 10 movement speed or so), and in-combat its inferior to spending more time in movement skills (if you want, I can break down in-combat movement as well. Just as a spoiler: Warrior and Ranger are faster).
  1. Shadow Step is 40s when traited in Shadow Arts my dude.

Ah, right, fair enough.
  1. You said: "Lets put it to 40 seconds, shall we? So, we get at most 1 shadowstep" No you get 2x. You use Shadow Step immediately at the start of the 60s timer, as well as 2x SB#5s. I already pointed this out in the breakdown. You do this early, first skills used, so that they come off CD faster during the 60s timer. My good bro, you get to use Shadow Step twice in the 60s race. And don't worry, I already calculated the rest of the breakdown for Range/War in the same way with their skill usage.

And even with that, Ranger is ahead. Without even using sword. And no, you didnt. You forgot a
lot
of things, as I pointed out, and made a lot of wrong assumptions.
  1. Then you go on to say: "Infiltrators arrow is not instant either. Theyre both about a second, but swoop carries you a tiny bit further." again, you're not noticing something important for this comparison. The SB#5 does have an animation time but it DOES NOT stop your WASD movement walking speed while casting it. So the Thief is still moving with WASD while the animation begins, an when it ends it instantly moves him with no interruption to the WASD movement. Swoop and Gazelle F2 or Bull's Charge or Rush, REPLACE all WASD movement and actually cause small pauses to it before and after the animations. A Swoop may be 1000 range but it is on a 10s CD that is effectively an 11s CD because the recharge doesn't begin until the 1s animation ends. The Sb#5 on the other hand, does not interrupt the initiative regen whatsoever and maintains a sound 2x 900 range uses per 12s = 1800 range per 12s, all the while not interrupting the WASD movement of the Thief at all, nor does Shadow Step or Steal.

Why does it stopping WASD movement matter, exactly? After you use Shortbow 5, no matter how or where you move, your location is locked in. You will always travel 900 units from your
original
point. Thats 900 units per second. Meanwhile Rush and swoop and whatever all finish their full animation also in a second, and you can move freely instantly. Thats 1200 units per second. Thats more distance covered in the same time. That is
all
that matters. I get what youre trying to do, muddle the waters to hide important aspects that dismantle your argument, but it doesnt work.
  1. And then this here is just entirely and completely incorrect in every possible way. You said that: "You get both Bird Swoop and Gazelle Charge, actually. You cant swap pets in-combat, but were not looking at in-combat. So thats 1200 on 12 seconds and Swoops 1200 on 18 seconds. Theyre also both about a second." OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting. When you're talking about things chasing each other and running from each other, that's what's happening, people in combat. When a Soulbeast is in combat it can't swap pets. Even if we were talking about out of combat, you are seriously not understanding some things about Ranger here. Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills. It relies on Beastmastery trait merge for a flat 30% movement speed WHILE MERGED. When you try to swap pets, they go on a 9s CD and during that 9s you do not benefit the 30% movement. Even if you were using Swiftness from the bird when it was unmerged, it only lasts 10s and it takes time to cast. Then when you swap to the Gazelle the pet swap goes on 9s CD and merge will be on a 10s CD after you left bird. So now you swap to Gazelle and you have to stand there and wait for the merge CD to come off timer before you can even get into the Gazelle to use the F2. So theoretically I see what you're trying to argue but it doesn't pan out in the way that you were thinking because of merge timer. In other words, without writing a thesis on this one aspect, you'll make better distance by camping beast mode in Gazelle for the 30% movement baseline and F2 Charge on a 13s cycle. Trying to swap pets and adding in that 9 to 10s buffer to wait to remerge will kill your skill usage cycling & distance.

Lots to unpack here. Let me just copy the important parts and address them one by one.

OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting

No we arent. Were talking about a horizontal race. You dont have a race in-combat. And the original context was about
cross-map movement
. You know, going to decap and +1? You also do that
out of combat
. So already youre very wrong.

Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills

Oh,
. Yeah thats a load of kitten. And you use it while merged. And then there are stances or warhorn or whatever.
  1. Then you say: "You get swiftness from owl + your choice between stances, warhorn, or whatever. You hit the max cap all the same." OK first of all, whatever you're referencing is not going to be any faster than any other Soulbeast build aside from some +3% gain in movement from having Swiftness over merge trait. Upon that, using warhorn and stances and owl on a Soulbeast is not a practical build to be using in pvp. You need to be using Longbow and Greatsword, and Smokescale, because when you merge and go into combat you cannot swap pets and you need the Smokescale the most for obvious reasons. So whatever you're referencing here is about as far away as it could get from a realistic build comparison.

Its not much of a boost, but its a boost. And again, talking out of combat, so you hit the movement speed cap. And sure its not a practical build because you dont care for map movement since you need vertical movement. But in WvW, its actually a build. A version of boonbeast specifically.
  1. Then you start talking about 1hand Sword on a Ranger. Just no. You suggest the idea that someone is going to run Greatsword for Swoop with a 1hand Sword with a Warhorn apparnetly for competitive purposes? Even if they did and even if they were out of combat, that 1hand Sword jump has this weird hampering effect with its animation that hinders the Ranger just enough to where it barely gains any distance at all compared to what the tooltip says. If you're talking a foot race like this, the 600 range on Sword#2 is more like 300 range in terms of distance gained because of the weird animation at the beginning and the pause at the end before the Ranger is allowed to move with WASD afterwards. And upon that man, that build would be terrible in combat regardless of if it was DPS or Bunker, doesn't matter. Those weapon sets would be hot garbage together. The days of old Boonbeast setups have been looooooong gone for awhile now man. Sword/Warhorn/Greatsword would get you jacked up in a hurry if you tried to run it in pvp or wvw.

That "weird animation" is called a cast time. Its still faster. And sure, as I said, its redundant anyway. Youre ahead. And sure it wouldnt be good for 1v1s or teamfights. But neither is thief, is it? The point is to have a hypothetical thief analogue that can move across the map if they were horizontal.
  1. And then War I'm not going to discuss because it's slower than Ranger and Ranger is slower than Thief, and the same mistakes were made while viewing the breakdown, concerning not taking into account the hampering of movement from animations. A good example on War is GS#3 Whirlwind. That skill has some serious animation hampering. It doesn't boost you ahead nearly as much as the tooltip would make you think. Using a WW alongside of a guy who was just running with Swiftness 33%, would only put you ahead maybe 60-80 range from him, due to how the animation actually works.

Its slower than ranger, yes. Its faster than thief. I did not make any mistakes. I counted the animation and stated it. It boosts you by exactly as much as I have said.

At any rate man, the purpose of my comparisons were to use realistic build structures for pvp while being in combat. The purpose was not to point out theoretical weird run builds designed for GW1 Droknar's Forge run. I could do the same thing for Thief, point out of a bunch theoretical options that could improve its movement speed and init gain, ect ect, but that's unrealistic.

You couldnt. Youre pretty much hitting the cap. Roll for initiative, perhaps, but that barely boosts you, and then youre tapped out. The purpose was to show that in horizontal movement thief is faster than ranger and warrior, and you failed to show that at all, because its not true.

But just to humour you, what if it was in-combat? Well lets start with warrior. Its easier. 12600 over 16.45 remains the same, its not affected by in combat vs out of combat. So, 23.5 seconds of swiftness movement. Thats 280 units per second. So 23.5*280= 6580. For a total of 19180 units in 40 seconds. To compare, thief has the 7200 over 8. So, 32 seconds of movement. Lets be
very
generous and assume thief has 50% extra movement speed during the entire 32 seconds (needless to say, he wont). Thats 32*315= 10080. For a total of 17280. Thats almost 2k
less
. And that was with me being
very
generous. If we instead assume realistically the thief only has, lets say, 12 seconds of 50% movement, then its only 16580. Almost 3k less. Yeah, pretty rough for the thief, innit?

You maths are kinda off by a bita) For example you didn't calculate that Thief can use Dash (450 yards yard range) x6times in those 40 sec(2 in start + once every 10 sec) .

So I didnt. Although its 5 times, not 6. 3 at the start, then one every 10 seconds, but you dont start with dash. Thats 750 units. Less far behind, but still behind.

b) The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat

Well, I did say "its about 10 units or so". 9 to be precise. You throw in about, idk, 110 units. Its still behind.

c) Combining those 2 , you will get out of combat faster without being him and your 50% out of combat speed in stealth will be fully enabled

Nah, if you combine those 2 thief still falls behind by a lot.

and d) if you stealth , he cannot outrun you , because he cannot find you :)

Thats not how outrunning is defined.

Yeah it seems both of us haven't played much GW2 :)Daredevil has 3 dodges from the start + once per 10 sec . So in total is 7 in 40 sec

Wait did I mess up my math? Oh its 6. Not 7. You dont start with dash. You start with shortbow 5, since initiative is more important to recharge.

In an combat race , you start with the more easy available spell , in our case is Dash . Otherwise the delay from switching weapon + use the Arrow can be fatal . You can equip it while on the Dash animation

Nope, see above.

The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combatDruids and Warriors with swiftness its 33%

Percentage is meaningless, you want the real unit. That is a difference of
9
units per second. So after 40 seconds of running, youd barely be at 360. Its not much.

I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled :)

He wont actually. And this is not what the race is about. And the 50% speed is meaningless, as seen above.

a) Nope see above , you start with the Dash , you will waste 0,5 sec by equipping the shortbow and till the arrow its traveled .Its more scientific acceptable to do that while you are on the Dash animationedit: With my method (7 dashes) , i can use 2 Dash to give my resources time to recuperate + travel 900 more yards

You dont. You dont equip shortbow, and you start with shortbow because initiative is more important of a resource than endurance. Its 1.5 units per second when youre regening endurance, vs 150 per second with shortbow 5. PRetty big.

b)Its not 9 units .Its 3% difference movement increased x 40 sec = the number will be inflating even after that = they will never catch you

Its literally 9 units per second. Its 391 units per second vs 400 units per second. Its so little its irrelevant.

c) I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled will travel even more distance

Again, we start out of combat. And again, the speed makes close to no difference.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

I am willing to stream it as well. I'll play the Thief. And yes, I want to put gold down on this.

@ArthurDent.9538 said:The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

Which part of "perfectly horizontal" are you not quite getting? The point was that specifically sPvPs non-horizontal map design is why thieves mobility beats ranger and warrior, while WvWs perfectly flat planes make warrior and ranger win.

We can do it in pvp, in wvw, in a pve dungeon, in a plane, on a train, it won't matter. The Thief will always win.

Find a friend on soulbeast and warrior and do it then. And do it properly, like I did a while back. Odds are youll get the same result, which is warrior and ranger winning. Do watch out if youre trying to do it around castle in EBG though, sometimes you get the no valid path thing there, which might ruin the race. But no, thief will never win on a perfectly horizontal plane. Thats what the math shows, and thats what a couple tests I did showed as well.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

I am willing to stream it as well. I'll play the Thief. And yes, I want to put gold down on this.

@ArthurDent.9538 said:The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

Which part of "perfectly horizontal" are you not quite getting? The point was that specifically sPvPs non-horizontal map design is why thieves mobility beats ranger and warrior, while WvWs perfectly flat planes make warrior and ranger win.

We can do it in pvp, in wvw, in a pve dungeon, in a plane, on a train, it won't matter. The Thief will always win.

Find a friend on soulbeast and warrior and do it then. And do it properly, like I did a while back. Odds are youll get the same result, which is warrior and ranger winning. Do watch out if youre trying to do it around castle in EBG though, sometimes you get the no valid path thing there, which might ruin the race. But no, thief will
never
win on a perfectly horizontal plane. Thats what the math shows, and thats what a couple tests I did showed as well.

No, I need you to help me do this race so it gets done properly. I want to play the Thief and you be on the Soulbeast.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

I am willing to stream it as well. I'll play the Thief. And yes, I want to put gold down on this.

@ArthurDent.9538 said:The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

Which part of "perfectly horizontal" are you not quite getting? The point was that specifically sPvPs non-horizontal map design is why thieves mobility beats ranger and warrior, while WvWs perfectly flat planes make warrior and ranger win.

We can do it in pvp, in wvw, in a pve dungeon, in a plane, on a train, it won't matter. The Thief will always win.

Find a friend on soulbeast and warrior and do it then. And do it properly, like I did a while back. Odds are youll get the same result, which is warrior and ranger winning. Do watch out if youre trying to do it around castle in EBG though, sometimes you get the no valid path thing there, which might ruin the race. But no, thief will
never
win on a perfectly horizontal plane. Thats what the math shows, and thats what a couple tests I did showed as well.

No, I need you to help me do this race so it gets done properly. I want to play the Thief and you be on the Soulbeast.

What if I say no? Ive seen how this goes before, even when they get proven wrong, people dont admit it. So I have no reason to waste time for it. Try it out, or more likely dont. The fact that youre wrong wont change.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@UNOwen.7132 lol you just say things that are wrong man.
  1. Rangers and Warriors do not outpace thief in a horizontal race. I don't understand how you can possibly argue with the breakdown that I presented.

Because the breakdown you presented is incorrect, leaves out a lot of things.
  1. You said that: "Out of combat, 33% or 50% doesnt make a difference" which is silly because in pvp you're always in combat. Even if we were talking out of combat, the DP Daredevil is still clearly faster. As much can be viewed from the breakdown.

We were talking about a horizontal race. That does not include in-combat. And if we talk out of combat, Ranger is clearly much faster, as you can see from the
corrected
breakdown. Oh and fun fact: If we were talking in-combat, warrior actually pulls ahead a lot, because they spend less time just running and more time in movement.
  1. Then you say: "Additionally in order to obtain anything close to permastealth, thief has to slow down a lot. Far more than they get from it. So, not a point." It's not about permastealth, it's about the small stealths like their heal skill, which is 24s CD traited for a 6s +50% movement, or Steal if it is traited to grant stealth with significantly large reduction in CD. Between just the heal and steal, not counting any other sources of stealth, a PD Core or DP dd is essentially getting 9s of +50% movement per 24s. That's something like 40% uptime of +50% movement my dude. So if they cycle the usage wisely, they use the porting during the 15s that the 50% movement is on CD, and run with the 50% movement for 9s while init is building back up. There is an extremely small margin of time where the thief has to WASD with only 33% Swift, very small margin of time. So yeah, that +50% movement from stealth is extremely significant in this breakdown, whether you look at from in combat or out.

"that's 50% movement on a class that can perma stealth". Quite literally what you wrote. Dont complain that I point out something you say yourself. Its not significant at all, because out of combat 33% and 50% is nearly identical (its a difference of 10 movement speed or so), and in-combat its inferior to spending more time in movement skills (if you want, I can break down in-combat movement as well. Just as a spoiler: Warrior and Ranger are faster).
  1. Shadow Step is 40s when traited in Shadow Arts my dude.

Ah, right, fair enough.
  1. You said: "Lets put it to 40 seconds, shall we? So, we get at most 1 shadowstep" No you get 2x. You use Shadow Step immediately at the start of the 60s timer, as well as 2x SB#5s. I already pointed this out in the breakdown. You do this early, first skills used, so that they come off CD faster during the 60s timer. My good bro, you get to use Shadow Step twice in the 60s race. And don't worry, I already calculated the rest of the breakdown for Range/War in the same way with their skill usage.

And even with that, Ranger is ahead. Without even using sword. And no, you didnt. You forgot a
lot
of things, as I pointed out, and made a lot of wrong assumptions.
  1. Then you go on to say: "Infiltrators arrow is not instant either. Theyre both about a second, but swoop carries you a tiny bit further." again, you're not noticing something important for this comparison. The SB#5 does have an animation time but it DOES NOT stop your WASD movement walking speed while casting it. So the Thief is still moving with WASD while the animation begins, an when it ends it instantly moves him with no interruption to the WASD movement. Swoop and Gazelle F2 or Bull's Charge or Rush, REPLACE all WASD movement and actually cause small pauses to it before and after the animations. A Swoop may be 1000 range but it is on a 10s CD that is effectively an 11s CD because the recharge doesn't begin until the 1s animation ends. The Sb#5 on the other hand, does not interrupt the initiative regen whatsoever and maintains a sound 2x 900 range uses per 12s = 1800 range per 12s, all the while not interrupting the WASD movement of the Thief at all, nor does Shadow Step or Steal.

Why does it stopping WASD movement matter, exactly? After you use Shortbow 5, no matter how or where you move, your location is locked in. You will always travel 900 units from your
original
point. Thats 900 units per second. Meanwhile Rush and swoop and whatever all finish their full animation also in a second, and you can move freely instantly. Thats 1200 units per second. Thats more distance covered in the same time. That is
all
that matters. I get what youre trying to do, muddle the waters to hide important aspects that dismantle your argument, but it doesnt work.
  1. And then this here is just entirely and completely incorrect in every possible way. You said that: "You get both Bird Swoop and Gazelle Charge, actually. You cant swap pets in-combat, but were not looking at in-combat. So thats 1200 on 12 seconds and Swoops 1200 on 18 seconds. Theyre also both about a second." OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting. When you're talking about things chasing each other and running from each other, that's what's happening, people in combat. When a Soulbeast is in combat it can't swap pets. Even if we were talking about out of combat, you are seriously not understanding some things about Ranger here. Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills. It relies on Beastmastery trait merge for a flat 30% movement speed WHILE MERGED. When you try to swap pets, they go on a 9s CD and during that 9s you do not benefit the 30% movement. Even if you were using Swiftness from the bird when it was unmerged, it only lasts 10s and it takes time to cast. Then when you swap to the Gazelle the pet swap goes on 9s CD and merge will be on a 10s CD after you left bird. So now you swap to Gazelle and you have to stand there and wait for the merge CD to come off timer before you can even get into the Gazelle to use the F2. So theoretically I see what you're trying to argue but it doesn't pan out in the way that you were thinking because of merge timer. In other words, without writing a thesis on this one aspect, you'll make better distance by camping beast mode in Gazelle for the 30% movement baseline and F2 Charge on a 13s cycle. Trying to swap pets and adding in that 9 to 10s buffer to wait to remerge will kill your skill usage cycling & distance.

Lots to unpack here. Let me just copy the important parts and address them one by one.

OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting

No we arent. Were talking about a horizontal race. You dont have a race in-combat. And the original context was about
cross-map movement
. You know, going to decap and +1? You also do that
out of combat
. So already youre very wrong.

Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills

Oh,
. Yeah thats a load of kitten. And you use it while merged. And then there are stances or warhorn or whatever.
  1. Then you say: "You get swiftness from owl + your choice between stances, warhorn, or whatever. You hit the max cap all the same." OK first of all, whatever you're referencing is not going to be any faster than any other Soulbeast build aside from some +3% gain in movement from having Swiftness over merge trait. Upon that, using warhorn and stances and owl on a Soulbeast is not a practical build to be using in pvp. You need to be using Longbow and Greatsword, and Smokescale, because when you merge and go into combat you cannot swap pets and you need the Smokescale the most for obvious reasons. So whatever you're referencing here is about as far away as it could get from a realistic build comparison.

Its not much of a boost, but its a boost. And again, talking out of combat, so you hit the movement speed cap. And sure its not a practical build because you dont care for map movement since you need vertical movement. But in WvW, its actually a build. A version of boonbeast specifically.
  1. Then you start talking about 1hand Sword on a Ranger. Just no. You suggest the idea that someone is going to run Greatsword for Swoop with a 1hand Sword with a Warhorn apparnetly for competitive purposes? Even if they did and even if they were out of combat, that 1hand Sword jump has this weird hampering effect with its animation that hinders the Ranger just enough to where it barely gains any distance at all compared to what the tooltip says. If you're talking a foot race like this, the 600 range on Sword#2 is more like 300 range in terms of distance gained because of the weird animation at the beginning and the pause at the end before the Ranger is allowed to move with WASD afterwards. And upon that man, that build would be terrible in combat regardless of if it was DPS or Bunker, doesn't matter. Those weapon sets would be hot garbage together. The days of old Boonbeast setups have been looooooong gone for awhile now man. Sword/Warhorn/Greatsword would get you jacked up in a hurry if you tried to run it in pvp or wvw.

That "weird animation" is called a cast time. Its still faster. And sure, as I said, its redundant anyway. Youre ahead. And sure it wouldnt be good for 1v1s or teamfights. But neither is thief, is it? The point is to have a hypothetical thief analogue that can move across the map if they were horizontal.
  1. And then War I'm not going to discuss because it's slower than Ranger and Ranger is slower than Thief, and the same mistakes were made while viewing the breakdown, concerning not taking into account the hampering of movement from animations. A good example on War is GS#3 Whirlwind. That skill has some serious animation hampering. It doesn't boost you ahead nearly as much as the tooltip would make you think. Using a WW alongside of a guy who was just running with Swiftness 33%, would only put you ahead maybe 60-80 range from him, due to how the animation actually works.

Its slower than ranger, yes. Its faster than thief. I did not make any mistakes. I counted the animation and stated it. It boosts you by exactly as much as I have said.

At any rate man, the purpose of my comparisons were to use realistic build structures for pvp while being in combat. The purpose was not to point out theoretical weird run builds designed for GW1 Droknar's Forge run. I could do the same thing for Thief, point out of a bunch theoretical options that could improve its movement speed and init gain, ect ect, but that's unrealistic.

You couldnt. Youre pretty much hitting the cap. Roll for initiative, perhaps, but that barely boosts you, and then youre tapped out. The purpose was to show that in horizontal movement thief is faster than ranger and warrior, and you failed to show that at all, because its not true.

But just to humour you, what if it was in-combat? Well lets start with warrior. Its easier. 12600 over 16.45 remains the same, its not affected by in combat vs out of combat. So, 23.5 seconds of swiftness movement. Thats 280 units per second. So 23.5*280= 6580. For a total of 19180 units in 40 seconds. To compare, thief has the 7200 over 8. So, 32 seconds of movement. Lets be
very
generous and assume thief has 50% extra movement speed during the entire 32 seconds (needless to say, he wont). Thats 32*315= 10080. For a total of 17280. Thats almost 2k
less
. And that was with me being
very
generous. If we instead assume realistically the thief only has, lets say, 12 seconds of 50% movement, then its only 16580. Almost 3k less. Yeah, pretty rough for the thief, innit?

You maths are kinda off by a bita) For example you didn't calculate that Thief can use Dash (450 yards yard range) x6times in those 40 sec(2 in start + once every 10 sec) .

So I didnt. Although its 5 times, not 6. 3 at the start, then one every 10 seconds, but you dont start with dash. Thats 750 units. Less far behind, but still behind.

b) The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat

Well, I did say "its about 10 units or so". 9 to be precise. You throw in about, idk, 110 units. Its still behind.

c) Combining those 2 , you will get out of combat faster without being him and your 50% out of combat speed in stealth will be fully enabled

Nah, if you combine those 2 thief still falls behind by a lot.

and d) if you stealth , he cannot outrun you , because he cannot find you :)

Thats not how outrunning is defined.

Yeah it seems both of us haven't played much GW2 :)Daredevil has 3 dodges from the start + once per 10 sec . So in total is 7 in 40 sec

Wait did I mess up my math? Oh its 6. Not 7. You dont start with dash. You start with shortbow 5, since initiative is more important to recharge.

In an combat race , you start with the more easy available spell , in our case is Dash . Otherwise the delay from switching weapon + use the Arrow can be fatal . You can equip it while on the Dash animation

Nope, see above.

The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combatDruids and Warriors with swiftness its 33%

Percentage is meaningless, you want the real unit. That is a difference of
9
units per second. So after 40 seconds of running, youd barely be at 360. Its not much.

I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled :)

He wont actually. And this is not what the race is about. And the 50% speed is meaningless, as seen above.

a) Nope see above , you start with the Dash , you will waste 0,5 sec by equipping the shortbow and till the arrow its traveled .Its more scientific acceptable to do that while you are on the Dash animationedit: With my method (7 dashes) , i can use 2 Dash to give my resources time to recuperate + travel 900 more yards

You dont. You dont equip shortbow, and you start with shortbow because initiative is more important of a resource than endurance. Its 1.5 units per second when youre regening endurance, vs 150 per second with shortbow 5. PRetty big.

b)Its not 9 units .Its 3% difference movement increased x 40 sec = the number will be inflating even after that = they will never catch you

Its literally 9 units per second. Its 391 units per second vs 400 units per second. Its so little its irrelevant.

c) I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled will travel even more distance

Again, we start out of combat. And again, the speed makes close to no difference.

a)No sorry , but with your method you will be off by 900 yards less from your goal .Try to imagine this Dodge > arrow > dodge > dodge(both 2 free) > arrowWith your method and 5 dodges , you will be 900 yard less and your resources will not have time to be restored

b) If we start out of combat , then the Warrior + Druid will be running by 33% vs 50% of you .It will be 17% difference in speed/distance x40 sec = 2040 yards and will be increasing by the second

Try to think it more rational , you will outrun them both:)Or try to stealth and hide them :)

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@Naqam a.6521 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@UNOwen.7132 lol you just say things that are wrong man.
  1. Rangers and Warriors do not outpace thief in a horizontal race. I don't understand how you can possibly argue with the breakdown that I presented.

Because the breakdown you presented is incorrect, leaves out a lot of things.
  1. You said that: "Out of combat, 33% or 50% doesnt make a difference" which is silly because in pvp you're always in combat. Even if we were talking out of combat, the DP Daredevil is still clearly faster. As much can be viewed from the breakdown.

We were talking about a horizontal race. That does not include in-combat. And if we talk out of combat, Ranger is clearly much faster, as you can see from the
corrected
breakdown. Oh and fun fact: If we were talking in-combat, warrior actually pulls ahead a lot, because they spend less time just running and more time in movement.
  1. Then you say: "Additionally in order to obtain anything close to permastealth, thief has to slow down a lot. Far more than they get from it. So, not a point." It's not about permastealth, it's about the small stealths like their heal skill, which is 24s CD traited for a 6s +50% movement, or Steal if it is traited to grant stealth with significantly large reduction in CD. Between just the heal and steal, not counting any other sources of stealth, a PD Core or DP dd is essentially getting 9s of +50% movement per 24s. That's something like 40% uptime of +50% movement my dude. So if they cycle the usage wisely, they use the porting during the 15s that the 50% movement is on CD, and run with the 50% movement for 9s while init is building back up. There is an extremely small margin of time where the thief has to WASD with only 33% Swift, very small margin of time. So yeah, that +50% movement from stealth is extremely significant in this breakdown, whether you look at from in combat or out.

"that's 50% movement on a class that can perma stealth". Quite literally what you wrote. Dont complain that I point out something you say yourself. Its not significant at all, because out of combat 33% and 50% is nearly identical (its a difference of 10 movement speed or so), and in-combat its inferior to spending more time in movement skills (if you want, I can break down in-combat movement as well. Just as a spoiler: Warrior and Ranger are faster).
  1. Shadow Step is 40s when traited in Shadow Arts my dude.

Ah, right, fair enough.
  1. You said: "Lets put it to 40 seconds, shall we? So, we get at most 1 shadowstep" No you get 2x. You use Shadow Step immediately at the start of the 60s timer, as well as 2x SB#5s. I already pointed this out in the breakdown. You do this early, first skills used, so that they come off CD faster during the 60s timer. My good bro, you get to use Shadow Step twice in the 60s race. And don't worry, I already calculated the rest of the breakdown for Range/War in the same way with their skill usage.

And even with that, Ranger is ahead. Without even using sword. And no, you didnt. You forgot a
lot
of things, as I pointed out, and made a lot of wrong assumptions.
  1. Then you go on to say: "Infiltrators arrow is not instant either. Theyre both about a second, but swoop carries you a tiny bit further." again, you're not noticing something important for this comparison. The SB#5 does have an animation time but it DOES NOT stop your WASD movement walking speed while casting it. So the Thief is still moving with WASD while the animation begins, an when it ends it instantly moves him with no interruption to the WASD movement. Swoop and Gazelle F2 or Bull's Charge or Rush, REPLACE all WASD movement and actually cause small pauses to it before and after the animations. A Swoop may be 1000 range but it is on a 10s CD that is effectively an 11s CD because the recharge doesn't begin until the 1s animation ends. The Sb#5 on the other hand, does not interrupt the initiative regen whatsoever and maintains a sound 2x 900 range uses per 12s = 1800 range per 12s, all the while not interrupting the WASD movement of the Thief at all, nor does Shadow Step or Steal.

Why does it stopping WASD movement matter, exactly? After you use Shortbow 5, no matter how or where you move, your location is locked in. You will always travel 900 units from your
original
point. Thats 900 units per second. Meanwhile Rush and swoop and whatever all finish their full animation also in a second, and you can move freely instantly. Thats 1200 units per second. Thats more distance covered in the same time. That is
all
that matters. I get what youre trying to do, muddle the waters to hide important aspects that dismantle your argument, but it doesnt work.
  1. And then this here is just entirely and completely incorrect in every possible way. You said that: "You get both Bird Swoop and Gazelle Charge, actually. You cant swap pets in-combat, but were not looking at in-combat. So thats 1200 on 12 seconds and Swoops 1200 on 18 seconds. Theyre also both about a second." OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting. When you're talking about things chasing each other and running from each other, that's what's happening, people in combat. When a Soulbeast is in combat it can't swap pets. Even if we were talking about out of combat, you are seriously not understanding some things about Ranger here. Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills. It relies on Beastmastery trait merge for a flat 30% movement speed WHILE MERGED. When you try to swap pets, they go on a 9s CD and during that 9s you do not benefit the 30% movement. Even if you were using Swiftness from the bird when it was unmerged, it only lasts 10s and it takes time to cast. Then when you swap to the Gazelle the pet swap goes on 9s CD and merge will be on a 10s CD after you left bird. So now you swap to Gazelle and you have to stand there and wait for the merge CD to come off timer before you can even get into the Gazelle to use the F2. So theoretically I see what you're trying to argue but it doesn't pan out in the way that you were thinking because of merge timer. In other words, without writing a thesis on this one aspect, you'll make better distance by camping beast mode in Gazelle for the 30% movement baseline and F2 Charge on a 13s cycle. Trying to swap pets and adding in that 9 to 10s buffer to wait to remerge will kill your skill usage cycling & distance.

Lots to unpack here. Let me just copy the important parts and address them one by one.

OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting

No we arent. Were talking about a horizontal race. You dont have a race in-combat. And the original context was about
cross-map movement
. You know, going to decap and +1? You also do that
out of combat
. So already youre very wrong.

Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills

Oh,
. Yeah thats a load of kitten. And you use it while merged. And then there are stances or warhorn or whatever.
  1. Then you say: "You get swiftness from owl + your choice between stances, warhorn, or whatever. You hit the max cap all the same." OK first of all, whatever you're referencing is not going to be any faster than any other Soulbeast build aside from some +3% gain in movement from having Swiftness over merge trait. Upon that, using warhorn and stances and owl on a Soulbeast is not a practical build to be using in pvp. You need to be using Longbow and Greatsword, and Smokescale, because when you merge and go into combat you cannot swap pets and you need the Smokescale the most for obvious reasons. So whatever you're referencing here is about as far away as it could get from a realistic build comparison.

Its not much of a boost, but its a boost. And again, talking out of combat, so you hit the movement speed cap. And sure its not a practical build because you dont care for map movement since you need vertical movement. But in WvW, its actually a build. A version of boonbeast specifically.
  1. Then you start talking about 1hand Sword on a Ranger. Just no. You suggest the idea that someone is going to run Greatsword for Swoop with a 1hand Sword with a Warhorn apparnetly for competitive purposes? Even if they did and even if they were out of combat, that 1hand Sword jump has this weird hampering effect with its animation that hinders the Ranger just enough to where it barely gains any distance at all compared to what the tooltip says. If you're talking a foot race like this, the 600 range on Sword#2 is more like 300 range in terms of distance gained because of the weird animation at the beginning and the pause at the end before the Ranger is allowed to move with WASD afterwards. And upon that man, that build would be terrible in combat regardless of if it was DPS or Bunker, doesn't matter. Those weapon sets would be hot garbage together. The days of old Boonbeast setups have been looooooong gone for awhile now man. Sword/Warhorn/Greatsword would get you jacked up in a hurry if you tried to run it in pvp or wvw.

That "weird animation" is called a cast time. Its still faster. And sure, as I said, its redundant anyway. Youre ahead. And sure it wouldnt be good for 1v1s or teamfights. But neither is thief, is it? The point is to have a hypothetical thief analogue that can move across the map if they were horizontal.
  1. And then War I'm not going to discuss because it's slower than Ranger and Ranger is slower than Thief, and the same mistakes were made while viewing the breakdown, concerning not taking into account the hampering of movement from animations. A good example on War is GS#3 Whirlwind. That skill has some serious animation hampering. It doesn't boost you ahead nearly as much as the tooltip would make you think. Using a WW alongside of a guy who was just running with Swiftness 33%, would only put you ahead maybe 60-80 range from him, due to how the animation actually works.

Its slower than ranger, yes. Its faster than thief. I did not make any mistakes. I counted the animation and stated it. It boosts you by exactly as much as I have said.

At any rate man, the purpose of my comparisons were to use realistic build structures for pvp while being in combat. The purpose was not to point out theoretical weird run builds designed for GW1 Droknar's Forge run. I could do the same thing for Thief, point out of a bunch theoretical options that could improve its movement speed and init gain, ect ect, but that's unrealistic.

You couldnt. Youre pretty much hitting the cap. Roll for initiative, perhaps, but that barely boosts you, and then youre tapped out. The purpose was to show that in horizontal movement thief is faster than ranger and warrior, and you failed to show that at all, because its not true.

But just to humour you, what if it was in-combat? Well lets start with warrior. Its easier. 12600 over 16.45 remains the same, its not affected by in combat vs out of combat. So, 23.5 seconds of swiftness movement. Thats 280 units per second. So 23.5*280= 6580. For a total of 19180 units in 40 seconds. To compare, thief has the 7200 over 8. So, 32 seconds of movement. Lets be
very
generous and assume thief has 50% extra movement speed during the entire 32 seconds (needless to say, he wont). Thats 32*315= 10080. For a total of 17280. Thats almost 2k
less
. And that was with me being
very
generous. If we instead assume realistically the thief only has, lets say, 12 seconds of 50% movement, then its only 16580. Almost 3k less. Yeah, pretty rough for the thief, innit?

You maths are kinda off by a bita) For example you didn't calculate that Thief can use Dash (450 yards yard range) x6times in those 40 sec(2 in start + once every 10 sec) .

So I didnt. Although its 5 times, not 6. 3 at the start, then one every 10 seconds, but you dont start with dash. Thats 750 units. Less far behind, but still behind.

b) The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat

Well, I did say "its about 10 units or so". 9 to be precise. You throw in about, idk, 110 units. Its still behind.

c) Combining those 2 , you will get out of combat faster without being him and your 50% out of combat speed in stealth will be fully enabled

Nah, if you combine those 2 thief still falls behind by a lot.

and d) if you stealth , he cannot outrun you , because he cannot find you :)

Thats not how outrunning is defined.

Yeah it seems both of us haven't played much GW2 :)Daredevil has 3 dodges from the start + once per 10 sec . So in total is 7 in 40 sec

Wait did I mess up my math? Oh its 6. Not 7. You dont start with dash. You start with shortbow 5, since initiative is more important to recharge.

In an combat race , you start with the more easy available spell , in our case is Dash . Otherwise the delay from switching weapon + use the Arrow can be fatal . You can equip it while on the Dash animation

Nope, see above.

The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combatDruids and Warriors with swiftness its 33%

Percentage is meaningless, you want the real unit. That is a difference of
9
units per second. So after 40 seconds of running, youd barely be at 360. Its not much.

I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled :)

He wont actually. And this is not what the race is about. And the 50% speed is meaningless, as seen above.

a) Nope see above , you start with the Dash , you will waste 0,5 sec by equipping the shortbow and till the arrow its traveled .Its more scientific acceptable to do that while you are on the Dash animationedit: With my method (7 dashes) , i can use 2 Dash to give my resources time to recuperate + travel 900 more yards

You dont. You dont equip shortbow, and you start with shortbow because initiative is more important of a resource than endurance. Its 1.5 units per second when youre regening endurance, vs 150 per second with shortbow 5. PRetty big.

b)Its not 9 units .Its 3% difference movement increased x 40 sec = the number will be inflating even after that = they will never catch you

Its literally 9 units per second. Its 391 units per second vs 400 units per second. Its so little its irrelevant.

c) I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled will travel even more distance

Again, we start out of combat. And again, the speed makes close to no difference.

a)No sorry , but with your method you will be off by 900 yards less from your goal .Try to imagine the first dodge , as a free 450 yard Leap > arrow > dodge .With your method and 5 dodges , you will be 900 yard less and your resources will not have time to be restored

I hate having to repeat myself. The first dodge gives you about 150 units compared to just walking. The first infiltrators arrow gives you 500 units compared to just walking. And initiative is worth more than endurance. So is it now clear why you do not start with a dash? Good.

b) If we start out of combat , then the Warrior + Druid will be running by 33% vs 50% of you .It will be 17% difference in speed/distance x40 sec = 2040 yards and will be increasing by the second

Out of combat movement speed has a cap. At 400. With swiftness you reach 391 movement speed. So 50% only gains 9 units per seconds. So no, at most its 360 units if you ran 40 seconds with 50% vs someone with 33%. Not 2040 or anywhere close to it.

Try to think it more rational , you will outrun them both:)Or try to stealth and hide them :)

The one who needs to "think more rational" is the one who doesnt understand basic concepts. Do not make me repeat myself again.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@UNOwen.7132 lol you just say things that are wrong man.
  1. Rangers and Warriors do not outpace thief in a horizontal race. I don't understand how you can possibly argue with the breakdown that I presented.

Because the breakdown you presented is incorrect, leaves out a lot of things.
  1. You said that: "Out of combat, 33% or 50% doesnt make a difference" which is silly because in pvp you're always in combat. Even if we were talking out of combat, the DP Daredevil is still clearly faster. As much can be viewed from the breakdown.

We were talking about a horizontal race. That does not include in-combat. And if we talk out of combat, Ranger is clearly much faster, as you can see from the
corrected
breakdown. Oh and fun fact: If we were talking in-combat, warrior actually pulls ahead a lot, because they spend less time just running and more time in movement.
  1. Then you say: "Additionally in order to obtain anything close to permastealth, thief has to slow down a lot. Far more than they get from it. So, not a point." It's not about permastealth, it's about the small stealths like their heal skill, which is 24s CD traited for a 6s +50% movement, or Steal if it is traited to grant stealth with significantly large reduction in CD. Between just the heal and steal, not counting any other sources of stealth, a PD Core or DP dd is essentially getting 9s of +50% movement per 24s. That's something like 40% uptime of +50% movement my dude. So if they cycle the usage wisely, they use the porting during the 15s that the 50% movement is on CD, and run with the 50% movement for 9s while init is building back up. There is an extremely small margin of time where the thief has to WASD with only 33% Swift, very small margin of time. So yeah, that +50% movement from stealth is extremely significant in this breakdown, whether you look at from in combat or out.

"that's 50% movement on a class that can perma stealth". Quite literally what you wrote. Dont complain that I point out something you say yourself. Its not significant at all, because out of combat 33% and 50% is nearly identical (its a difference of 10 movement speed or so), and in-combat its inferior to spending more time in movement skills (if you want, I can break down in-combat movement as well. Just as a spoiler: Warrior and Ranger are faster).
  1. Shadow Step is 40s when traited in Shadow Arts my dude.

Ah, right, fair enough.
  1. You said: "Lets put it to 40 seconds, shall we? So, we get at most 1 shadowstep" No you get 2x. You use Shadow Step immediately at the start of the 60s timer, as well as 2x SB#5s. I already pointed this out in the breakdown. You do this early, first skills used, so that they come off CD faster during the 60s timer. My good bro, you get to use Shadow Step twice in the 60s race. And don't worry, I already calculated the rest of the breakdown for Range/War in the same way with their skill usage.

And even with that, Ranger is ahead. Without even using sword. And no, you didnt. You forgot a
lot
of things, as I pointed out, and made a lot of wrong assumptions.
  1. Then you go on to say: "Infiltrators arrow is not instant either. Theyre both about a second, but swoop carries you a tiny bit further." again, you're not noticing something important for this comparison. The SB#5 does have an animation time but it DOES NOT stop your WASD movement walking speed while casting it. So the Thief is still moving with WASD while the animation begins, an when it ends it instantly moves him with no interruption to the WASD movement. Swoop and Gazelle F2 or Bull's Charge or Rush, REPLACE all WASD movement and actually cause small pauses to it before and after the animations. A Swoop may be 1000 range but it is on a 10s CD that is effectively an 11s CD because the recharge doesn't begin until the 1s animation ends. The Sb#5 on the other hand, does not interrupt the initiative regen whatsoever and maintains a sound 2x 900 range uses per 12s = 1800 range per 12s, all the while not interrupting the WASD movement of the Thief at all, nor does Shadow Step or Steal.

Why does it stopping WASD movement matter, exactly? After you use Shortbow 5, no matter how or where you move, your location is locked in. You will always travel 900 units from your
original
point. Thats 900 units per second. Meanwhile Rush and swoop and whatever all finish their full animation also in a second, and you can move freely instantly. Thats 1200 units per second. Thats more distance covered in the same time. That is
all
that matters. I get what youre trying to do, muddle the waters to hide important aspects that dismantle your argument, but it doesnt work.
  1. And then this here is just entirely and completely incorrect in every possible way. You said that: "You get both Bird Swoop and Gazelle Charge, actually. You cant swap pets in-combat, but were not looking at in-combat. So thats 1200 on 12 seconds and Swoops 1200 on 18 seconds. Theyre also both about a second." OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting. When you're talking about things chasing each other and running from each other, that's what's happening, people in combat. When a Soulbeast is in combat it can't swap pets. Even if we were talking about out of combat, you are seriously not understanding some things about Ranger here. Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills. It relies on Beastmastery trait merge for a flat 30% movement speed WHILE MERGED. When you try to swap pets, they go on a 9s CD and during that 9s you do not benefit the 30% movement. Even if you were using Swiftness from the bird when it was unmerged, it only lasts 10s and it takes time to cast. Then when you swap to the Gazelle the pet swap goes on 9s CD and merge will be on a 10s CD after you left bird. So now you swap to Gazelle and you have to stand there and wait for the merge CD to come off timer before you can even get into the Gazelle to use the F2. So theoretically I see what you're trying to argue but it doesn't pan out in the way that you were thinking because of merge timer. In other words, without writing a thesis on this one aspect, you'll make better distance by camping beast mode in Gazelle for the 30% movement baseline and F2 Charge on a 13s cycle. Trying to swap pets and adding in that 9 to 10s buffer to wait to remerge will kill your skill usage cycling & distance.

Lots to unpack here. Let me just copy the important parts and address them one by one.

OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting

No we arent. Were talking about a horizontal race. You dont have a race in-combat. And the original context was about
cross-map movement
. You know, going to decap and +1? You also do that
out of combat
. So already youre very wrong.

Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills

Oh,
. Yeah thats a load of kitten. And you use it while merged. And then there are stances or warhorn or whatever.
  1. Then you say: "You get swiftness from owl + your choice between stances, warhorn, or whatever. You hit the max cap all the same." OK first of all, whatever you're referencing is not going to be any faster than any other Soulbeast build aside from some +3% gain in movement from having Swiftness over merge trait. Upon that, using warhorn and stances and owl on a Soulbeast is not a practical build to be using in pvp. You need to be using Longbow and Greatsword, and Smokescale, because when you merge and go into combat you cannot swap pets and you need the Smokescale the most for obvious reasons. So whatever you're referencing here is about as far away as it could get from a realistic build comparison.

Its not much of a boost, but its a boost. And again, talking out of combat, so you hit the movement speed cap. And sure its not a practical build because you dont care for map movement since you need vertical movement. But in WvW, its actually a build. A version of boonbeast specifically.
  1. Then you start talking about 1hand Sword on a Ranger. Just no. You suggest the idea that someone is going to run Greatsword for Swoop with a 1hand Sword with a Warhorn apparnetly for competitive purposes? Even if they did and even if they were out of combat, that 1hand Sword jump has this weird hampering effect with its animation that hinders the Ranger just enough to where it barely gains any distance at all compared to what the tooltip says. If you're talking a foot race like this, the 600 range on Sword#2 is more like 300 range in terms of distance gained because of the weird animation at the beginning and the pause at the end before the Ranger is allowed to move with WASD afterwards. And upon that man, that build would be terrible in combat regardless of if it was DPS or Bunker, doesn't matter. Those weapon sets would be hot garbage together. The days of old Boonbeast setups have been looooooong gone for awhile now man. Sword/Warhorn/Greatsword would get you jacked up in a hurry if you tried to run it in pvp or wvw.

That "weird animation" is called a cast time. Its still faster. And sure, as I said, its redundant anyway. Youre ahead. And sure it wouldnt be good for 1v1s or teamfights. But neither is thief, is it? The point is to have a hypothetical thief analogue that can move across the map if they were horizontal.
  1. And then War I'm not going to discuss because it's slower than Ranger and Ranger is slower than Thief, and the same mistakes were made while viewing the breakdown, concerning not taking into account the hampering of movement from animations. A good example on War is GS#3 Whirlwind. That skill has some serious animation hampering. It doesn't boost you ahead nearly as much as the tooltip would make you think. Using a WW alongside of a guy who was just running with Swiftness 33%, would only put you ahead maybe 60-80 range from him, due to how the animation actually works.

Its slower than ranger, yes. Its faster than thief. I did not make any mistakes. I counted the animation and stated it. It boosts you by exactly as much as I have said.

At any rate man, the purpose of my comparisons were to use realistic build structures for pvp while being in combat. The purpose was not to point out theoretical weird run builds designed for GW1 Droknar's Forge run. I could do the same thing for Thief, point out of a bunch theoretical options that could improve its movement speed and init gain, ect ect, but that's unrealistic.

You couldnt. Youre pretty much hitting the cap. Roll for initiative, perhaps, but that barely boosts you, and then youre tapped out. The purpose was to show that in horizontal movement thief is faster than ranger and warrior, and you failed to show that at all, because its not true.

But just to humour you, what if it was in-combat? Well lets start with warrior. Its easier. 12600 over 16.45 remains the same, its not affected by in combat vs out of combat. So, 23.5 seconds of swiftness movement. Thats 280 units per second. So 23.5*280= 6580. For a total of 19180 units in 40 seconds. To compare, thief has the 7200 over 8. So, 32 seconds of movement. Lets be
very
generous and assume thief has 50% extra movement speed during the entire 32 seconds (needless to say, he wont). Thats 32*315= 10080. For a total of 17280. Thats almost 2k
less
. And that was with me being
very
generous. If we instead assume realistically the thief only has, lets say, 12 seconds of 50% movement, then its only 16580. Almost 3k less. Yeah, pretty rough for the thief, innit?

You maths are kinda off by a bita) For example you didn't calculate that Thief can use Dash (450 yards yard range) x6times in those 40 sec(2 in start + once every 10 sec) .

So I didnt. Although its 5 times, not 6. 3 at the start, then one every 10 seconds, but you dont start with dash. Thats 750 units. Less far behind, but still behind.

b) The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat

Well, I did say "its about 10 units or so". 9 to be precise. You throw in about, idk, 110 units. Its still behind.

c) Combining those 2 , you will get out of combat faster without being him and your 50% out of combat speed in stealth will be fully enabled

Nah, if you combine those 2 thief still falls behind by a lot.

and d) if you stealth , he cannot outrun you , because he cannot find you :)

Thats not how outrunning is defined.

Yeah it seems both of us haven't played much GW2 :)Daredevil has 3 dodges from the start + once per 10 sec . So in total is 7 in 40 sec

Wait did I mess up my math? Oh its 6. Not 7. You dont start with dash. You start with shortbow 5, since initiative is more important to recharge.

In an combat race , you start with the more easy available spell , in our case is Dash . Otherwise the delay from switching weapon + use the Arrow can be fatal . You can equip it while on the Dash animation

Nope, see above.

The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combatDruids and Warriors with swiftness its 33%

Percentage is meaningless, you want the real unit. That is a difference of
9
units per second. So after 40 seconds of running, youd barely be at 360. Its not much.

I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled :)

He wont actually. And this is not what the race is about. And the 50% speed is meaningless, as seen above.

a) Nope see above , you start with the Dash , you will waste 0,5 sec by equipping the shortbow and till the arrow its traveled .Its more scientific acceptable to do that while you are on the Dash animationedit: With my method (7 dashes) , i can use 2 Dash to give my resources time to recuperate + travel 900 more yards

You dont. You dont equip shortbow, and you start with shortbow because initiative is more important of a resource than endurance. Its 1.5 units per second when youre regening endurance, vs 150 per second with shortbow 5. PRetty big.

b)Its not 9 units .Its 3% difference movement increased x 40 sec = the number will be inflating even after that = they will never catch you

Its literally 9 units per second. Its 391 units per second vs 400 units per second. Its so little its irrelevant.

c) I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled will travel even more distance

Again, we start out of combat. And again, the speed makes close to no difference.

a)No sorry , but with your method you will be off by 900 yards less from your goal .Try to imagine the first dodge , as a free 450 yard Leap > arrow > dodge .With your method and 5 dodges , you will be 900 yard less and your resources will not have time to be restored

I hate having to repeat myself. The first dodge gives you about 150 units compared to just walking. The first infiltrators arrow gives you
500
units compared to just walking. And initiative is worth more than endurance. So is it now clear why you do
not
start with a dash? Good.

b) If we start out of combat , then the Warrior + Druid will be running by 33% vs 50% of you .It will be 17% difference in speed/distance x40 sec = 2040 yards and will be increasing by the second

Out of combat movement speed has a cap. At 400. With swiftness you reach 391 movement speed. So 50% only gains 9 units per seconds. So no, at most its 360 units if you ran 40 seconds with 50% vs someone with 33%. Not 2040 or anywhere
close
to it.

Try to think it more rational , you will outrun them both:)Or try to stealth and hide them :)

The one who needs to "think more rational" is the one who doesnt understand basic concepts. Do not make me repeat myself again.

a)Again you don't really understand .Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodgesWith your calculation you will not gain 900 yard extra speed ...

b) In combat has a cap ...Out of combat has not ...Out of combat is 50% speed vs 33%In combat is 33% vs 36% ( mostly is 28% vs 30-31% and superspeed at 36%)

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@Naqam a.6521 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@UNOwen.7132 lol you just say things that are wrong man.
  1. Rangers and Warriors do not outpace thief in a horizontal race. I don't understand how you can possibly argue with the breakdown that I presented.

Because the breakdown you presented is incorrect, leaves out a lot of things.
  1. You said that: "Out of combat, 33% or 50% doesnt make a difference" which is silly because in pvp you're always in combat. Even if we were talking out of combat, the DP Daredevil is still clearly faster. As much can be viewed from the breakdown.

We were talking about a horizontal race. That does not include in-combat. And if we talk out of combat, Ranger is clearly much faster, as you can see from the
corrected
breakdown. Oh and fun fact: If we were talking in-combat, warrior actually pulls ahead a lot, because they spend less time just running and more time in movement.
  1. Then you say: "Additionally in order to obtain anything close to permastealth, thief has to slow down a lot. Far more than they get from it. So, not a point." It's not about permastealth, it's about the small stealths like their heal skill, which is 24s CD traited for a 6s +50% movement, or Steal if it is traited to grant stealth with significantly large reduction in CD. Between just the heal and steal, not counting any other sources of stealth, a PD Core or DP dd is essentially getting 9s of +50% movement per 24s. That's something like 40% uptime of +50% movement my dude. So if they cycle the usage wisely, they use the porting during the 15s that the 50% movement is on CD, and run with the 50% movement for 9s while init is building back up. There is an extremely small margin of time where the thief has to WASD with only 33% Swift, very small margin of time. So yeah, that +50% movement from stealth is extremely significant in this breakdown, whether you look at from in combat or out.

"that's 50% movement on a class that can perma stealth". Quite literally what you wrote. Dont complain that I point out something you say yourself. Its not significant at all, because out of combat 33% and 50% is nearly identical (its a difference of 10 movement speed or so), and in-combat its inferior to spending more time in movement skills (if you want, I can break down in-combat movement as well. Just as a spoiler: Warrior and Ranger are faster).
  1. Shadow Step is 40s when traited in Shadow Arts my dude.

Ah, right, fair enough.
  1. You said: "Lets put it to 40 seconds, shall we? So, we get at most 1 shadowstep" No you get 2x. You use Shadow Step immediately at the start of the 60s timer, as well as 2x SB#5s. I already pointed this out in the breakdown. You do this early, first skills used, so that they come off CD faster during the 60s timer. My good bro, you get to use Shadow Step twice in the 60s race. And don't worry, I already calculated the rest of the breakdown for Range/War in the same way with their skill usage.

And even with that, Ranger is ahead. Without even using sword. And no, you didnt. You forgot a
lot
of things, as I pointed out, and made a lot of wrong assumptions.
  1. Then you go on to say: "Infiltrators arrow is not instant either. Theyre both about a second, but swoop carries you a tiny bit further." again, you're not noticing something important for this comparison. The SB#5 does have an animation time but it DOES NOT stop your WASD movement walking speed while casting it. So the Thief is still moving with WASD while the animation begins, an when it ends it instantly moves him with no interruption to the WASD movement. Swoop and Gazelle F2 or Bull's Charge or Rush, REPLACE all WASD movement and actually cause small pauses to it before and after the animations. A Swoop may be 1000 range but it is on a 10s CD that is effectively an 11s CD because the recharge doesn't begin until the 1s animation ends. The Sb#5 on the other hand, does not interrupt the initiative regen whatsoever and maintains a sound 2x 900 range uses per 12s = 1800 range per 12s, all the while not interrupting the WASD movement of the Thief at all, nor does Shadow Step or Steal.

Why does it stopping WASD movement matter, exactly? After you use Shortbow 5, no matter how or where you move, your location is locked in. You will always travel 900 units from your
original
point. Thats 900 units per second. Meanwhile Rush and swoop and whatever all finish their full animation also in a second, and you can move freely instantly. Thats 1200 units per second. Thats more distance covered in the same time. That is
all
that matters. I get what youre trying to do, muddle the waters to hide important aspects that dismantle your argument, but it doesnt work.
  1. And then this here is just entirely and completely incorrect in every possible way. You said that: "You get both Bird Swoop and Gazelle Charge, actually. You cant swap pets in-combat, but were not looking at in-combat. So thats 1200 on 12 seconds and Swoops 1200 on 18 seconds. Theyre also both about a second." OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting. When you're talking about things chasing each other and running from each other, that's what's happening, people in combat. When a Soulbeast is in combat it can't swap pets. Even if we were talking about out of combat, you are seriously not understanding some things about Ranger here. Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills. It relies on Beastmastery trait merge for a flat 30% movement speed WHILE MERGED. When you try to swap pets, they go on a 9s CD and during that 9s you do not benefit the 30% movement. Even if you were using Swiftness from the bird when it was unmerged, it only lasts 10s and it takes time to cast. Then when you swap to the Gazelle the pet swap goes on 9s CD and merge will be on a 10s CD after you left bird. So now you swap to Gazelle and you have to stand there and wait for the merge CD to come off timer before you can even get into the Gazelle to use the F2. So theoretically I see what you're trying to argue but it doesn't pan out in the way that you were thinking because of merge timer. In other words, without writing a thesis on this one aspect, you'll make better distance by camping beast mode in Gazelle for the 30% movement baseline and F2 Charge on a 13s cycle. Trying to swap pets and adding in that 9 to 10s buffer to wait to remerge will kill your skill usage cycling & distance.

Lots to unpack here. Let me just copy the important parts and address them one by one.

OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting

No we arent. Were talking about a horizontal race. You dont have a race in-combat. And the original context was about
cross-map movement
. You know, going to decap and +1? You also do that
out of combat
. So already youre very wrong.

Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills

Oh,
. Yeah thats a load of kitten. And you use it while merged. And then there are stances or warhorn or whatever.
  1. Then you say: "You get swiftness from owl + your choice between stances, warhorn, or whatever. You hit the max cap all the same." OK first of all, whatever you're referencing is not going to be any faster than any other Soulbeast build aside from some +3% gain in movement from having Swiftness over merge trait. Upon that, using warhorn and stances and owl on a Soulbeast is not a practical build to be using in pvp. You need to be using Longbow and Greatsword, and Smokescale, because when you merge and go into combat you cannot swap pets and you need the Smokescale the most for obvious reasons. So whatever you're referencing here is about as far away as it could get from a realistic build comparison.

Its not much of a boost, but its a boost. And again, talking out of combat, so you hit the movement speed cap. And sure its not a practical build because you dont care for map movement since you need vertical movement. But in WvW, its actually a build. A version of boonbeast specifically.
  1. Then you start talking about 1hand Sword on a Ranger. Just no. You suggest the idea that someone is going to run Greatsword for Swoop with a 1hand Sword with a Warhorn apparnetly for competitive purposes? Even if they did and even if they were out of combat, that 1hand Sword jump has this weird hampering effect with its animation that hinders the Ranger just enough to where it barely gains any distance at all compared to what the tooltip says. If you're talking a foot race like this, the 600 range on Sword#2 is more like 300 range in terms of distance gained because of the weird animation at the beginning and the pause at the end before the Ranger is allowed to move with WASD afterwards. And upon that man, that build would be terrible in combat regardless of if it was DPS or Bunker, doesn't matter. Those weapon sets would be hot garbage together. The days of old Boonbeast setups have been looooooong gone for awhile now man. Sword/Warhorn/Greatsword would get you jacked up in a hurry if you tried to run it in pvp or wvw.

That "weird animation" is called a cast time. Its still faster. And sure, as I said, its redundant anyway. Youre ahead. And sure it wouldnt be good for 1v1s or teamfights. But neither is thief, is it? The point is to have a hypothetical thief analogue that can move across the map if they were horizontal.
  1. And then War I'm not going to discuss because it's slower than Ranger and Ranger is slower than Thief, and the same mistakes were made while viewing the breakdown, concerning not taking into account the hampering of movement from animations. A good example on War is GS#3 Whirlwind. That skill has some serious animation hampering. It doesn't boost you ahead nearly as much as the tooltip would make you think. Using a WW alongside of a guy who was just running with Swiftness 33%, would only put you ahead maybe 60-80 range from him, due to how the animation actually works.

Its slower than ranger, yes. Its faster than thief. I did not make any mistakes. I counted the animation and stated it. It boosts you by exactly as much as I have said.

At any rate man, the purpose of my comparisons were to use realistic build structures for pvp while being in combat. The purpose was not to point out theoretical weird run builds designed for GW1 Droknar's Forge run. I could do the same thing for Thief, point out of a bunch theoretical options that could improve its movement speed and init gain, ect ect, but that's unrealistic.

You couldnt. Youre pretty much hitting the cap. Roll for initiative, perhaps, but that barely boosts you, and then youre tapped out. The purpose was to show that in horizontal movement thief is faster than ranger and warrior, and you failed to show that at all, because its not true.

But just to humour you, what if it was in-combat? Well lets start with warrior. Its easier. 12600 over 16.45 remains the same, its not affected by in combat vs out of combat. So, 23.5 seconds of swiftness movement. Thats 280 units per second. So 23.5*280= 6580. For a total of 19180 units in 40 seconds. To compare, thief has the 7200 over 8. So, 32 seconds of movement. Lets be
very
generous and assume thief has 50% extra movement speed during the entire 32 seconds (needless to say, he wont). Thats 32*315= 10080. For a total of 17280. Thats almost 2k
less
. And that was with me being
very
generous. If we instead assume realistically the thief only has, lets say, 12 seconds of 50% movement, then its only 16580. Almost 3k less. Yeah, pretty rough for the thief, innit?

You maths are kinda off by a bita) For example you didn't calculate that Thief can use Dash (450 yards yard range) x6times in those 40 sec(2 in start + once every 10 sec) .

So I didnt. Although its 5 times, not 6. 3 at the start, then one every 10 seconds, but you dont start with dash. Thats 750 units. Less far behind, but still behind.

b) The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat

Well, I did say "its about 10 units or so". 9 to be precise. You throw in about, idk, 110 units. Its still behind.

c) Combining those 2 , you will get out of combat faster without being him and your 50% out of combat speed in stealth will be fully enabled

Nah, if you combine those 2 thief still falls behind by a lot.

and d) if you stealth , he cannot outrun you , because he cannot find you :)

Thats not how outrunning is defined.

Yeah it seems both of us haven't played much GW2 :)Daredevil has 3 dodges from the start + once per 10 sec . So in total is 7 in 40 sec

Wait did I mess up my math? Oh its 6. Not 7. You dont start with dash. You start with shortbow 5, since initiative is more important to recharge.

In an combat race , you start with the more easy available spell , in our case is Dash . Otherwise the delay from switching weapon + use the Arrow can be fatal . You can equip it while on the Dash animation

Nope, see above.

The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combatDruids and Warriors with swiftness its 33%

Percentage is meaningless, you want the real unit. That is a difference of
9
units per second. So after 40 seconds of running, youd barely be at 360. Its not much.

I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled :)

He wont actually. And this is not what the race is about. And the 50% speed is meaningless, as seen above.

a) Nope see above , you start with the Dash , you will waste 0,5 sec by equipping the shortbow and till the arrow its traveled .Its more scientific acceptable to do that while you are on the Dash animationedit: With my method (7 dashes) , i can use 2 Dash to give my resources time to recuperate + travel 900 more yards

You dont. You dont equip shortbow, and you start with shortbow because initiative is more important of a resource than endurance. Its 1.5 units per second when youre regening endurance, vs 150 per second with shortbow 5. PRetty big.

b)Its not 9 units .Its 3% difference movement increased x 40 sec = the number will be inflating even after that = they will never catch you

Its literally 9 units per second. Its 391 units per second vs 400 units per second. Its so little its irrelevant.

c) I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled will travel even more distance

Again, we start out of combat. And again, the speed makes close to no difference.

a)No sorry , but with your method you will be off by 900 yards less from your goal .Try to imagine the first dodge , as a free 450 yard Leap > arrow > dodge .With your method and 5 dodges , you will be 900 yard less and your resources will not have time to be restored

I hate having to repeat myself. The first dodge gives you about 150 units compared to just walking. The first infiltrators arrow gives you
500
units compared to just walking. And initiative is worth more than endurance. So is it now clear why you do
not
start with a dash? Good.

b) If we start out of combat , then the Warrior + Druid will be running by 33% vs 50% of you .It will be 17% difference in speed/distance x40 sec = 2040 yards and will be increasing by the second

Out of combat movement speed has a cap. At 400. With swiftness you reach 391 movement speed. So 50% only gains 9 units per seconds. So no, at most its 360 units if you ran 40 seconds with 50% vs someone with 33%. Not 2040 or anywhere
close
to it.

Try to think it more rational , you will outrun them both:)Or try to stealth and hide them :)

The one who needs to "think more rational" is the one who doesnt understand basic concepts. Do not make me repeat myself again.

a)Again you don't really understand .Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodgesWith your calculation you will not gain 900 yard extra speed ...

No I do understand. I understand you do not understand how this works. Let me explain. If you do the order "dodge > Arrow" you lose a total of 350 units at the start, and then another 150 for the second you wasted. On the other hand, if you do "Arrow > dodge", you gain 350 units and gain another 150 by not wasting a second. The latter moves you more.

b) In combat has a cap ...Out of combat has not ...

Yes it does. Do not argue without understanding the basics.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@UNOwen.7132 lol you just say things that are wrong man.
  1. Rangers and Warriors do not outpace thief in a horizontal race. I don't understand how you can possibly argue with the breakdown that I presented.

Because the breakdown you presented is incorrect, leaves out a lot of things.
  1. You said that: "Out of combat, 33% or 50% doesnt make a difference" which is silly because in pvp you're always in combat. Even if we were talking out of combat, the DP Daredevil is still clearly faster. As much can be viewed from the breakdown.

We were talking about a horizontal race. That does not include in-combat. And if we talk out of combat, Ranger is clearly much faster, as you can see from the
corrected
breakdown. Oh and fun fact: If we were talking in-combat, warrior actually pulls ahead a lot, because they spend less time just running and more time in movement.
  1. Then you say: "Additionally in order to obtain anything close to permastealth, thief has to slow down a lot. Far more than they get from it. So, not a point." It's not about permastealth, it's about the small stealths like their heal skill, which is 24s CD traited for a 6s +50% movement, or Steal if it is traited to grant stealth with significantly large reduction in CD. Between just the heal and steal, not counting any other sources of stealth, a PD Core or DP dd is essentially getting 9s of +50% movement per 24s. That's something like 40% uptime of +50% movement my dude. So if they cycle the usage wisely, they use the porting during the 15s that the 50% movement is on CD, and run with the 50% movement for 9s while init is building back up. There is an extremely small margin of time where the thief has to WASD with only 33% Swift, very small margin of time. So yeah, that +50% movement from stealth is extremely significant in this breakdown, whether you look at from in combat or out.

"that's 50% movement on a class that can perma stealth". Quite literally what you wrote. Dont complain that I point out something you say yourself. Its not significant at all, because out of combat 33% and 50% is nearly identical (its a difference of 10 movement speed or so), and in-combat its inferior to spending more time in movement skills (if you want, I can break down in-combat movement as well. Just as a spoiler: Warrior and Ranger are faster).
  1. Shadow Step is 40s when traited in Shadow Arts my dude.

Ah, right, fair enough.
  1. You said: "Lets put it to 40 seconds, shall we? So, we get at most 1 shadowstep" No you get 2x. You use Shadow Step immediately at the start of the 60s timer, as well as 2x SB#5s. I already pointed this out in the breakdown. You do this early, first skills used, so that they come off CD faster during the 60s timer. My good bro, you get to use Shadow Step twice in the 60s race. And don't worry, I already calculated the rest of the breakdown for Range/War in the same way with their skill usage.

And even with that, Ranger is ahead. Without even using sword. And no, you didnt. You forgot a
lot
of things, as I pointed out, and made a lot of wrong assumptions.
  1. Then you go on to say: "Infiltrators arrow is not instant either. Theyre both about a second, but swoop carries you a tiny bit further." again, you're not noticing something important for this comparison. The SB#5 does have an animation time but it DOES NOT stop your WASD movement walking speed while casting it. So the Thief is still moving with WASD while the animation begins, an when it ends it instantly moves him with no interruption to the WASD movement. Swoop and Gazelle F2 or Bull's Charge or Rush, REPLACE all WASD movement and actually cause small pauses to it before and after the animations. A Swoop may be 1000 range but it is on a 10s CD that is effectively an 11s CD because the recharge doesn't begin until the 1s animation ends. The Sb#5 on the other hand, does not interrupt the initiative regen whatsoever and maintains a sound 2x 900 range uses per 12s = 1800 range per 12s, all the while not interrupting the WASD movement of the Thief at all, nor does Shadow Step or Steal.

Why does it stopping WASD movement matter, exactly? After you use Shortbow 5, no matter how or where you move, your location is locked in. You will always travel 900 units from your
original
point. Thats 900 units per second. Meanwhile Rush and swoop and whatever all finish their full animation also in a second, and you can move freely instantly. Thats 1200 units per second. Thats more distance covered in the same time. That is
all
that matters. I get what youre trying to do, muddle the waters to hide important aspects that dismantle your argument, but it doesnt work.
  1. And then this here is just entirely and completely incorrect in every possible way. You said that: "You get both Bird Swoop and Gazelle Charge, actually. You cant swap pets in-combat, but were not looking at in-combat. So thats 1200 on 12 seconds and Swoops 1200 on 18 seconds. Theyre also both about a second." OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting. When you're talking about things chasing each other and running from each other, that's what's happening, people in combat. When a Soulbeast is in combat it can't swap pets. Even if we were talking about out of combat, you are seriously not understanding some things about Ranger here. Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills. It relies on Beastmastery trait merge for a flat 30% movement speed WHILE MERGED. When you try to swap pets, they go on a 9s CD and during that 9s you do not benefit the 30% movement. Even if you were using Swiftness from the bird when it was unmerged, it only lasts 10s and it takes time to cast. Then when you swap to the Gazelle the pet swap goes on 9s CD and merge will be on a 10s CD after you left bird. So now you swap to Gazelle and you have to stand there and wait for the merge CD to come off timer before you can even get into the Gazelle to use the F2. So theoretically I see what you're trying to argue but it doesn't pan out in the way that you were thinking because of merge timer. In other words, without writing a thesis on this one aspect, you'll make better distance by camping beast mode in Gazelle for the 30% movement baseline and F2 Charge on a 13s cycle. Trying to swap pets and adding in that 9 to 10s buffer to wait to remerge will kill your skill usage cycling & distance.

Lots to unpack here. Let me just copy the important parts and address them one by one.

OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting

No we arent. Were talking about a horizontal race. You dont have a race in-combat. And the original context was about
cross-map movement
. You know, going to decap and +1? You also do that
out of combat
. So already youre very wrong.

Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills

Oh,
. Yeah thats a load of kitten. And you use it while merged. And then there are stances or warhorn or whatever.
  1. Then you say: "You get swiftness from owl + your choice between stances, warhorn, or whatever. You hit the max cap all the same." OK first of all, whatever you're referencing is not going to be any faster than any other Soulbeast build aside from some +3% gain in movement from having Swiftness over merge trait. Upon that, using warhorn and stances and owl on a Soulbeast is not a practical build to be using in pvp. You need to be using Longbow and Greatsword, and Smokescale, because when you merge and go into combat you cannot swap pets and you need the Smokescale the most for obvious reasons. So whatever you're referencing here is about as far away as it could get from a realistic build comparison.

Its not much of a boost, but its a boost. And again, talking out of combat, so you hit the movement speed cap. And sure its not a practical build because you dont care for map movement since you need vertical movement. But in WvW, its actually a build. A version of boonbeast specifically.
  1. Then you start talking about 1hand Sword on a Ranger. Just no. You suggest the idea that someone is going to run Greatsword for Swoop with a 1hand Sword with a Warhorn apparnetly for competitive purposes? Even if they did and even if they were out of combat, that 1hand Sword jump has this weird hampering effect with its animation that hinders the Ranger just enough to where it barely gains any distance at all compared to what the tooltip says. If you're talking a foot race like this, the 600 range on Sword#2 is more like 300 range in terms of distance gained because of the weird animation at the beginning and the pause at the end before the Ranger is allowed to move with WASD afterwards. And upon that man, that build would be terrible in combat regardless of if it was DPS or Bunker, doesn't matter. Those weapon sets would be hot garbage together. The days of old Boonbeast setups have been looooooong gone for awhile now man. Sword/Warhorn/Greatsword would get you jacked up in a hurry if you tried to run it in pvp or wvw.

That "weird animation" is called a cast time. Its still faster. And sure, as I said, its redundant anyway. Youre ahead. And sure it wouldnt be good for 1v1s or teamfights. But neither is thief, is it? The point is to have a hypothetical thief analogue that can move across the map if they were horizontal.
  1. And then War I'm not going to discuss because it's slower than Ranger and Ranger is slower than Thief, and the same mistakes were made while viewing the breakdown, concerning not taking into account the hampering of movement from animations. A good example on War is GS#3 Whirlwind. That skill has some serious animation hampering. It doesn't boost you ahead nearly as much as the tooltip would make you think. Using a WW alongside of a guy who was just running with Swiftness 33%, would only put you ahead maybe 60-80 range from him, due to how the animation actually works.

Its slower than ranger, yes. Its faster than thief. I did not make any mistakes. I counted the animation and stated it. It boosts you by exactly as much as I have said.

At any rate man, the purpose of my comparisons were to use realistic build structures for pvp while being in combat. The purpose was not to point out theoretical weird run builds designed for GW1 Droknar's Forge run. I could do the same thing for Thief, point out of a bunch theoretical options that could improve its movement speed and init gain, ect ect, but that's unrealistic.

You couldnt. Youre pretty much hitting the cap. Roll for initiative, perhaps, but that barely boosts you, and then youre tapped out. The purpose was to show that in horizontal movement thief is faster than ranger and warrior, and you failed to show that at all, because its not true.

But just to humour you, what if it was in-combat? Well lets start with warrior. Its easier. 12600 over 16.45 remains the same, its not affected by in combat vs out of combat. So, 23.5 seconds of swiftness movement. Thats 280 units per second. So 23.5*280= 6580. For a total of 19180 units in 40 seconds. To compare, thief has the 7200 over 8. So, 32 seconds of movement. Lets be
very
generous and assume thief has 50% extra movement speed during the entire 32 seconds (needless to say, he wont). Thats 32*315= 10080. For a total of 17280. Thats almost 2k
less
. And that was with me being
very
generous. If we instead assume realistically the thief only has, lets say, 12 seconds of 50% movement, then its only 16580. Almost 3k less. Yeah, pretty rough for the thief, innit?

You maths are kinda off by a bita) For example you didn't calculate that Thief can use Dash (450 yards yard range) x6times in those 40 sec(2 in start + once every 10 sec) .

So I didnt. Although its 5 times, not 6. 3 at the start, then one every 10 seconds, but you dont start with dash. Thats 750 units. Less far behind, but still behind.

b) The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat

Well, I did say "its about 10 units or so". 9 to be precise. You throw in about, idk, 110 units. Its still behind.

c) Combining those 2 , you will get out of combat faster without being him and your 50% out of combat speed in stealth will be fully enabled

Nah, if you combine those 2 thief still falls behind by a lot.

and d) if you stealth , he cannot outrun you , because he cannot find you :)

Thats not how outrunning is defined.

Yeah it seems both of us haven't played much GW2 :)Daredevil has 3 dodges from the start + once per 10 sec . So in total is 7 in 40 sec

Wait did I mess up my math? Oh its 6. Not 7. You dont start with dash. You start with shortbow 5, since initiative is more important to recharge.

In an combat race , you start with the more easy available spell , in our case is Dash . Otherwise the delay from switching weapon + use the Arrow can be fatal . You can equip it while on the Dash animation

Nope, see above.

The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combatDruids and Warriors with swiftness its 33%

Percentage is meaningless, you want the real unit. That is a difference of
9
units per second. So after 40 seconds of running, youd barely be at 360. Its not much.

I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled :)

He wont actually. And this is not what the race is about. And the 50% speed is meaningless, as seen above.

a) Nope see above , you start with the Dash , you will waste 0,5 sec by equipping the shortbow and till the arrow its traveled .Its more scientific acceptable to do that while you are on the Dash animationedit: With my method (7 dashes) , i can use 2 Dash to give my resources time to recuperate + travel 900 more yards

You dont. You dont equip shortbow, and you start with shortbow because initiative is more important of a resource than endurance. Its 1.5 units per second when youre regening endurance, vs 150 per second with shortbow 5. PRetty big.

b)Its not 9 units .Its 3% difference movement increased x 40 sec = the number will be inflating even after that = they will never catch you

Its literally 9 units per second. Its 391 units per second vs 400 units per second. Its so little its irrelevant.

c) I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled will travel even more distance

Again, we start out of combat. And again, the speed makes close to no difference.

a)No sorry , but with your method you will be off by 900 yards less from your goal .Try to imagine the first dodge , as a free 450 yard Leap > arrow > dodge .With your method and 5 dodges , you will be 900 yard less and your resources will not have time to be restored

I hate having to repeat myself. The first dodge gives you about 150 units compared to just walking. The first infiltrators arrow gives you
500
units compared to just walking. And initiative is worth more than endurance. So is it now clear why you do
not
start with a dash? Good.

b) If we start out of combat , then the Warrior + Druid will be running by 33% vs 50% of you .It will be 17% difference in speed/distance x40 sec = 2040 yards and will be increasing by the second

Out of combat movement speed has a cap. At 400. With swiftness you reach 391 movement speed. So 50% only gains 9 units per seconds. So no, at most its 360 units if you ran 40 seconds with 50% vs someone with 33%. Not 2040 or anywhere
close
to it.

Try to think it more rational , you will outrun them both:)Or try to stealth and hide them :)

The one who needs to "think more rational" is the one who doesnt understand basic concepts. Do not make me repeat myself again.

a)Again you don't really understand .Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodgesWith your calculation you will not gain 900 yard extra speed ...

No I do understand. I understand you do not understand how this works. Let me explain. If you do the order "dodge > Arrow" you lose a total of 350 units at the start, and then another 150 for the second you wasted. On the other hand, if you do "Arrow > dodge", you gain 350 units and gain another 150 by not wasting a second. The latter moves you more.

b) In combat has a cap ...Out of combat has not ...

. Do not argue without understanding the basics.

a)Again read the basic too ...Swiftness doesn't put near the 400 capDont try to say something that you don't really understand

b) its free 2x dodgesIts free 900 yardsDodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodges

With you method , you will run out resources faster...

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@Naqam a.6521 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@UNOwen.7132 lol you just say things that are wrong man.
  1. Rangers and Warriors do not outpace thief in a horizontal race. I don't understand how you can possibly argue with the breakdown that I presented.

Because the breakdown you presented is incorrect, leaves out a lot of things.
  1. You said that: "Out of combat, 33% or 50% doesnt make a difference" which is silly because in pvp you're always in combat. Even if we were talking out of combat, the DP Daredevil is still clearly faster. As much can be viewed from the breakdown.

We were talking about a horizontal race. That does not include in-combat. And if we talk out of combat, Ranger is clearly much faster, as you can see from the
corrected
breakdown. Oh and fun fact: If we were talking in-combat, warrior actually pulls ahead a lot, because they spend less time just running and more time in movement.
  1. Then you say: "Additionally in order to obtain anything close to permastealth, thief has to slow down a lot. Far more than they get from it. So, not a point." It's not about permastealth, it's about the small stealths like their heal skill, which is 24s CD traited for a 6s +50% movement, or Steal if it is traited to grant stealth with significantly large reduction in CD. Between just the heal and steal, not counting any other sources of stealth, a PD Core or DP dd is essentially getting 9s of +50% movement per 24s. That's something like 40% uptime of +50% movement my dude. So if they cycle the usage wisely, they use the porting during the 15s that the 50% movement is on CD, and run with the 50% movement for 9s while init is building back up. There is an extremely small margin of time where the thief has to WASD with only 33% Swift, very small margin of time. So yeah, that +50% movement from stealth is extremely significant in this breakdown, whether you look at from in combat or out.

"that's 50% movement on a class that can perma stealth". Quite literally what you wrote. Dont complain that I point out something you say yourself. Its not significant at all, because out of combat 33% and 50% is nearly identical (its a difference of 10 movement speed or so), and in-combat its inferior to spending more time in movement skills (if you want, I can break down in-combat movement as well. Just as a spoiler: Warrior and Ranger are faster).
  1. Shadow Step is 40s when traited in Shadow Arts my dude.

Ah, right, fair enough.
  1. You said: "Lets put it to 40 seconds, shall we? So, we get at most 1 shadowstep" No you get 2x. You use Shadow Step immediately at the start of the 60s timer, as well as 2x SB#5s. I already pointed this out in the breakdown. You do this early, first skills used, so that they come off CD faster during the 60s timer. My good bro, you get to use Shadow Step twice in the 60s race. And don't worry, I already calculated the rest of the breakdown for Range/War in the same way with their skill usage.

And even with that, Ranger is ahead. Without even using sword. And no, you didnt. You forgot a
lot
of things, as I pointed out, and made a lot of wrong assumptions.
  1. Then you go on to say: "Infiltrators arrow is not instant either. Theyre both about a second, but swoop carries you a tiny bit further." again, you're not noticing something important for this comparison. The SB#5 does have an animation time but it DOES NOT stop your WASD movement walking speed while casting it. So the Thief is still moving with WASD while the animation begins, an when it ends it instantly moves him with no interruption to the WASD movement. Swoop and Gazelle F2 or Bull's Charge or Rush, REPLACE all WASD movement and actually cause small pauses to it before and after the animations. A Swoop may be 1000 range but it is on a 10s CD that is effectively an 11s CD because the recharge doesn't begin until the 1s animation ends. The Sb#5 on the other hand, does not interrupt the initiative regen whatsoever and maintains a sound 2x 900 range uses per 12s = 1800 range per 12s, all the while not interrupting the WASD movement of the Thief at all, nor does Shadow Step or Steal.

Why does it stopping WASD movement matter, exactly? After you use Shortbow 5, no matter how or where you move, your location is locked in. You will always travel 900 units from your
original
point. Thats 900 units per second. Meanwhile Rush and swoop and whatever all finish their full animation also in a second, and you can move freely instantly. Thats 1200 units per second. Thats more distance covered in the same time. That is
all
that matters. I get what youre trying to do, muddle the waters to hide important aspects that dismantle your argument, but it doesnt work.
  1. And then this here is just entirely and completely incorrect in every possible way. You said that: "You get both Bird Swoop and Gazelle Charge, actually. You cant swap pets in-combat, but were not looking at in-combat. So thats 1200 on 12 seconds and Swoops 1200 on 18 seconds. Theyre also both about a second." OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting. When you're talking about things chasing each other and running from each other, that's what's happening, people in combat. When a Soulbeast is in combat it can't swap pets. Even if we were talking about out of combat, you are seriously not understanding some things about Ranger here. Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills. It relies on Beastmastery trait merge for a flat 30% movement speed WHILE MERGED. When you try to swap pets, they go on a 9s CD and during that 9s you do not benefit the 30% movement. Even if you were using Swiftness from the bird when it was unmerged, it only lasts 10s and it takes time to cast. Then when you swap to the Gazelle the pet swap goes on 9s CD and merge will be on a 10s CD after you left bird. So now you swap to Gazelle and you have to stand there and wait for the merge CD to come off timer before you can even get into the Gazelle to use the F2. So theoretically I see what you're trying to argue but it doesn't pan out in the way that you were thinking because of merge timer. In other words, without writing a thesis on this one aspect, you'll make better distance by camping beast mode in Gazelle for the 30% movement baseline and F2 Charge on a 13s cycle. Trying to swap pets and adding in that 9 to 10s buffer to wait to remerge will kill your skill usage cycling & distance.

Lots to unpack here. Let me just copy the important parts and address them one by one.

OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting

No we arent. Were talking about a horizontal race. You dont have a race in-combat. And the original context was about
cross-map movement
. You know, going to decap and +1? You also do that
out of combat
. So already youre very wrong.

Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills

Oh,
. Yeah thats a load of kitten. And you use it while merged. And then there are stances or warhorn or whatever.
  1. Then you say: "You get swiftness from owl + your choice between stances, warhorn, or whatever. You hit the max cap all the same." OK first of all, whatever you're referencing is not going to be any faster than any other Soulbeast build aside from some +3% gain in movement from having Swiftness over merge trait. Upon that, using warhorn and stances and owl on a Soulbeast is not a practical build to be using in pvp. You need to be using Longbow and Greatsword, and Smokescale, because when you merge and go into combat you cannot swap pets and you need the Smokescale the most for obvious reasons. So whatever you're referencing here is about as far away as it could get from a realistic build comparison.

Its not much of a boost, but its a boost. And again, talking out of combat, so you hit the movement speed cap. And sure its not a practical build because you dont care for map movement since you need vertical movement. But in WvW, its actually a build. A version of boonbeast specifically.
  1. Then you start talking about 1hand Sword on a Ranger. Just no. You suggest the idea that someone is going to run Greatsword for Swoop with a 1hand Sword with a Warhorn apparnetly for competitive purposes? Even if they did and even if they were out of combat, that 1hand Sword jump has this weird hampering effect with its animation that hinders the Ranger just enough to where it barely gains any distance at all compared to what the tooltip says. If you're talking a foot race like this, the 600 range on Sword#2 is more like 300 range in terms of distance gained because of the weird animation at the beginning and the pause at the end before the Ranger is allowed to move with WASD afterwards. And upon that man, that build would be terrible in combat regardless of if it was DPS or Bunker, doesn't matter. Those weapon sets would be hot garbage together. The days of old Boonbeast setups have been looooooong gone for awhile now man. Sword/Warhorn/Greatsword would get you jacked up in a hurry if you tried to run it in pvp or wvw.

That "weird animation" is called a cast time. Its still faster. And sure, as I said, its redundant anyway. Youre ahead. And sure it wouldnt be good for 1v1s or teamfights. But neither is thief, is it? The point is to have a hypothetical thief analogue that can move across the map if they were horizontal.
  1. And then War I'm not going to discuss because it's slower than Ranger and Ranger is slower than Thief, and the same mistakes were made while viewing the breakdown, concerning not taking into account the hampering of movement from animations. A good example on War is GS#3 Whirlwind. That skill has some serious animation hampering. It doesn't boost you ahead nearly as much as the tooltip would make you think. Using a WW alongside of a guy who was just running with Swiftness 33%, would only put you ahead maybe 60-80 range from him, due to how the animation actually works.

Its slower than ranger, yes. Its faster than thief. I did not make any mistakes. I counted the animation and stated it. It boosts you by exactly as much as I have said.

At any rate man, the purpose of my comparisons were to use realistic build structures for pvp while being in combat. The purpose was not to point out theoretical weird run builds designed for GW1 Droknar's Forge run. I could do the same thing for Thief, point out of a bunch theoretical options that could improve its movement speed and init gain, ect ect, but that's unrealistic.

You couldnt. Youre pretty much hitting the cap. Roll for initiative, perhaps, but that barely boosts you, and then youre tapped out. The purpose was to show that in horizontal movement thief is faster than ranger and warrior, and you failed to show that at all, because its not true.

But just to humour you, what if it was in-combat? Well lets start with warrior. Its easier. 12600 over 16.45 remains the same, its not affected by in combat vs out of combat. So, 23.5 seconds of swiftness movement. Thats 280 units per second. So 23.5*280= 6580. For a total of 19180 units in 40 seconds. To compare, thief has the 7200 over 8. So, 32 seconds of movement. Lets be
very
generous and assume thief has 50% extra movement speed during the entire 32 seconds (needless to say, he wont). Thats 32*315= 10080. For a total of 17280. Thats almost 2k
less
. And that was with me being
very
generous. If we instead assume realistically the thief only has, lets say, 12 seconds of 50% movement, then its only 16580. Almost 3k less. Yeah, pretty rough for the thief, innit?

You maths are kinda off by a bita) For example you didn't calculate that Thief can use Dash (450 yards yard range) x6times in those 40 sec(2 in start + once every 10 sec) .

So I didnt. Although its 5 times, not 6. 3 at the start, then one every 10 seconds, but you dont start with dash. Thats 750 units. Less far behind, but still behind.

b) The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat

Well, I did say "its about 10 units or so". 9 to be precise. You throw in about, idk, 110 units. Its still behind.

c) Combining those 2 , you will get out of combat faster without being him and your 50% out of combat speed in stealth will be fully enabled

Nah, if you combine those 2 thief still falls behind by a lot.

and d) if you stealth , he cannot outrun you , because he cannot find you :)

Thats not how outrunning is defined.

Yeah it seems both of us haven't played much GW2 :)Daredevil has 3 dodges from the start + once per 10 sec . So in total is 7 in 40 sec

Wait did I mess up my math? Oh its 6. Not 7. You dont start with dash. You start with shortbow 5, since initiative is more important to recharge.

In an combat race , you start with the more easy available spell , in our case is Dash . Otherwise the delay from switching weapon + use the Arrow can be fatal . You can equip it while on the Dash animation

Nope, see above.

The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combatDruids and Warriors with swiftness its 33%

Percentage is meaningless, you want the real unit. That is a difference of
9
units per second. So after 40 seconds of running, youd barely be at 360. Its not much.

I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled :)

He wont actually. And this is not what the race is about. And the 50% speed is meaningless, as seen above.

a) Nope see above , you start with the Dash , you will waste 0,5 sec by equipping the shortbow and till the arrow its traveled .Its more scientific acceptable to do that while you are on the Dash animationedit: With my method (7 dashes) , i can use 2 Dash to give my resources time to recuperate + travel 900 more yards

You dont. You dont equip shortbow, and you start with shortbow because initiative is more important of a resource than endurance. Its 1.5 units per second when youre regening endurance, vs 150 per second with shortbow 5. PRetty big.

b)Its not 9 units .Its 3% difference movement increased x 40 sec = the number will be inflating even after that = they will never catch you

Its literally 9 units per second. Its 391 units per second vs 400 units per second. Its so little its irrelevant.

c) I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled will travel even more distance

Again, we start out of combat. And again, the speed makes close to no difference.

a)No sorry , but with your method you will be off by 900 yards less from your goal .Try to imagine the first dodge , as a free 450 yard Leap > arrow > dodge .With your method and 5 dodges , you will be 900 yard less and your resources will not have time to be restored

I hate having to repeat myself. The first dodge gives you about 150 units compared to just walking. The first infiltrators arrow gives you
500
units compared to just walking. And initiative is worth more than endurance. So is it now clear why you do
not
start with a dash? Good.

b) If we start out of combat , then the Warrior + Druid will be running by 33% vs 50% of you .It will be 17% difference in speed/distance x40 sec = 2040 yards and will be increasing by the second

Out of combat movement speed has a cap. At 400. With swiftness you reach 391 movement speed. So 50% only gains 9 units per seconds. So no, at most its 360 units if you ran 40 seconds with 50% vs someone with 33%. Not 2040 or anywhere
close
to it.

Try to think it more rational , you will outrun them both:)Or try to stealth and hide them :)

The one who needs to "think more rational" is the one who doesnt understand basic concepts. Do not make me repeat myself again.

a)Again you don't really understand .Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodgesWith your calculation you will not gain 900 yard extra speed ...

No I do understand. I understand you do not understand how this works. Let me explain. If you do the order "dodge > Arrow" you lose a total of 350 units at the start, and then another 150 for the second you wasted. On the other hand, if you do "Arrow > dodge", you gain 350 units and gain another 150 by not wasting a second. The latter moves you more.

b) In combat has a cap ...Out of combat has not ...

. Do not argue without understanding the basics.

a)Again read the basic too ...Swiftness doesn't put near the 400 capDont try to say something that you don't really understand

You really are making me repeat myself? Ugh. So, lets do the math. Swiftness is 33% speedboost. You start with 294 base movement speed out of combat. 294*1.33= 391. The cap is 400. So you are literally just 9 units below cap. Thats 9 units per second. Got it now?

b) its free 2x dodgesIts free 900 yardsDodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodges

No its not? You dont get anything. You just start regenerating endurance 1 second faster. Like, what if I instead use arrow, then dodge thrice, then arrow again? I gain distance. Simple, isnt it?

With you method , you will run out resources faster...

... no? You start regenerating resources faster with my method.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:@Trevor Boyer.6524I would bet gold on that too, if it comes to that I bet 300g on tif, if there are any takers.If mathematician doesnt kitten out, makes sure to record so we all can have a good laugh, dont be selfish plx.

Then bet on it between each other, test it correctly, and pay your 300 gold to whoever decided to take advantage of some suckers going for a bet thats already lost. But dont try to drag me into this waste of time. The last time I proved someone wrong they just decided to act like it never happened.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@UNOwen.7132 lol you just say things that are wrong man.
  1. Rangers and Warriors do not outpace thief in a horizontal race. I don't understand how you can possibly argue with the breakdown that I presented.

Because the breakdown you presented is incorrect, leaves out a lot of things.
  1. You said that: "Out of combat, 33% or 50% doesnt make a difference" which is silly because in pvp you're always in combat. Even if we were talking out of combat, the DP Daredevil is still clearly faster. As much can be viewed from the breakdown.

We were talking about a horizontal race. That does not include in-combat. And if we talk out of combat, Ranger is clearly much faster, as you can see from the
corrected
breakdown. Oh and fun fact: If we were talking in-combat, warrior actually pulls ahead a lot, because they spend less time just running and more time in movement.
  1. Then you say: "Additionally in order to obtain anything close to permastealth, thief has to slow down a lot. Far more than they get from it. So, not a point." It's not about permastealth, it's about the small stealths like their heal skill, which is 24s CD traited for a 6s +50% movement, or Steal if it is traited to grant stealth with significantly large reduction in CD. Between just the heal and steal, not counting any other sources of stealth, a PD Core or DP dd is essentially getting 9s of +50% movement per 24s. That's something like 40% uptime of +50% movement my dude. So if they cycle the usage wisely, they use the porting during the 15s that the 50% movement is on CD, and run with the 50% movement for 9s while init is building back up. There is an extremely small margin of time where the thief has to WASD with only 33% Swift, very small margin of time. So yeah, that +50% movement from stealth is extremely significant in this breakdown, whether you look at from in combat or out.

"that's 50% movement on a class that can perma stealth". Quite literally what you wrote. Dont complain that I point out something you say yourself. Its not significant at all, because out of combat 33% and 50% is nearly identical (its a difference of 10 movement speed or so), and in-combat its inferior to spending more time in movement skills (if you want, I can break down in-combat movement as well. Just as a spoiler: Warrior and Ranger are faster).
  1. Shadow Step is 40s when traited in Shadow Arts my dude.

Ah, right, fair enough.
  1. You said: "Lets put it to 40 seconds, shall we? So, we get at most 1 shadowstep" No you get 2x. You use Shadow Step immediately at the start of the 60s timer, as well as 2x SB#5s. I already pointed this out in the breakdown. You do this early, first skills used, so that they come off CD faster during the 60s timer. My good bro, you get to use Shadow Step twice in the 60s race. And don't worry, I already calculated the rest of the breakdown for Range/War in the same way with their skill usage.

And even with that, Ranger is ahead. Without even using sword. And no, you didnt. You forgot a
lot
of things, as I pointed out, and made a lot of wrong assumptions.
  1. Then you go on to say: "Infiltrators arrow is not instant either. Theyre both about a second, but swoop carries you a tiny bit further." again, you're not noticing something important for this comparison. The SB#5 does have an animation time but it DOES NOT stop your WASD movement walking speed while casting it. So the Thief is still moving with WASD while the animation begins, an when it ends it instantly moves him with no interruption to the WASD movement. Swoop and Gazelle F2 or Bull's Charge or Rush, REPLACE all WASD movement and actually cause small pauses to it before and after the animations. A Swoop may be 1000 range but it is on a 10s CD that is effectively an 11s CD because the recharge doesn't begin until the 1s animation ends. The Sb#5 on the other hand, does not interrupt the initiative regen whatsoever and maintains a sound 2x 900 range uses per 12s = 1800 range per 12s, all the while not interrupting the WASD movement of the Thief at all, nor does Shadow Step or Steal.

Why does it stopping WASD movement matter, exactly? After you use Shortbow 5, no matter how or where you move, your location is locked in. You will always travel 900 units from your
original
point. Thats 900 units per second. Meanwhile Rush and swoop and whatever all finish their full animation also in a second, and you can move freely instantly. Thats 1200 units per second. Thats more distance covered in the same time. That is
all
that matters. I get what youre trying to do, muddle the waters to hide important aspects that dismantle your argument, but it doesnt work.
  1. And then this here is just entirely and completely incorrect in every possible way. You said that: "You get both Bird Swoop and Gazelle Charge, actually. You cant swap pets in-combat, but were not looking at in-combat. So thats 1200 on 12 seconds and Swoops 1200 on 18 seconds. Theyre also both about a second." OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting. When you're talking about things chasing each other and running from each other, that's what's happening, people in combat. When a Soulbeast is in combat it can't swap pets. Even if we were talking about out of combat, you are seriously not understanding some things about Ranger here. Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills. It relies on Beastmastery trait merge for a flat 30% movement speed WHILE MERGED. When you try to swap pets, they go on a 9s CD and during that 9s you do not benefit the 30% movement. Even if you were using Swiftness from the bird when it was unmerged, it only lasts 10s and it takes time to cast. Then when you swap to the Gazelle the pet swap goes on 9s CD and merge will be on a 10s CD after you left bird. So now you swap to Gazelle and you have to stand there and wait for the merge CD to come off timer before you can even get into the Gazelle to use the F2. So theoretically I see what you're trying to argue but it doesn't pan out in the way that you were thinking because of merge timer. In other words, without writing a thesis on this one aspect, you'll make better distance by camping beast mode in Gazelle for the 30% movement baseline and F2 Charge on a 13s cycle. Trying to swap pets and adding in that 9 to 10s buffer to wait to remerge will kill your skill usage cycling & distance.

Lots to unpack here. Let me just copy the important parts and address them one by one.

OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting

No we arent. Were talking about a horizontal race. You dont have a race in-combat. And the original context was about
cross-map movement
. You know, going to decap and +1? You also do that
out of combat
. So already youre very wrong.

Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills

Oh,
. Yeah thats a load of kitten. And you use it while merged. And then there are stances or warhorn or whatever.
  1. Then you say: "You get swiftness from owl + your choice between stances, warhorn, or whatever. You hit the max cap all the same." OK first of all, whatever you're referencing is not going to be any faster than any other Soulbeast build aside from some +3% gain in movement from having Swiftness over merge trait. Upon that, using warhorn and stances and owl on a Soulbeast is not a practical build to be using in pvp. You need to be using Longbow and Greatsword, and Smokescale, because when you merge and go into combat you cannot swap pets and you need the Smokescale the most for obvious reasons. So whatever you're referencing here is about as far away as it could get from a realistic build comparison.

Its not much of a boost, but its a boost. And again, talking out of combat, so you hit the movement speed cap. And sure its not a practical build because you dont care for map movement since you need vertical movement. But in WvW, its actually a build. A version of boonbeast specifically.
  1. Then you start talking about 1hand Sword on a Ranger. Just no. You suggest the idea that someone is going to run Greatsword for Swoop with a 1hand Sword with a Warhorn apparnetly for competitive purposes? Even if they did and even if they were out of combat, that 1hand Sword jump has this weird hampering effect with its animation that hinders the Ranger just enough to where it barely gains any distance at all compared to what the tooltip says. If you're talking a foot race like this, the 600 range on Sword#2 is more like 300 range in terms of distance gained because of the weird animation at the beginning and the pause at the end before the Ranger is allowed to move with WASD afterwards. And upon that man, that build would be terrible in combat regardless of if it was DPS or Bunker, doesn't matter. Those weapon sets would be hot garbage together. The days of old Boonbeast setups have been looooooong gone for awhile now man. Sword/Warhorn/Greatsword would get you jacked up in a hurry if you tried to run it in pvp or wvw.

That "weird animation" is called a cast time. Its still faster. And sure, as I said, its redundant anyway. Youre ahead. And sure it wouldnt be good for 1v1s or teamfights. But neither is thief, is it? The point is to have a hypothetical thief analogue that can move across the map if they were horizontal.
  1. And then War I'm not going to discuss because it's slower than Ranger and Ranger is slower than Thief, and the same mistakes were made while viewing the breakdown, concerning not taking into account the hampering of movement from animations. A good example on War is GS#3 Whirlwind. That skill has some serious animation hampering. It doesn't boost you ahead nearly as much as the tooltip would make you think. Using a WW alongside of a guy who was just running with Swiftness 33%, would only put you ahead maybe 60-80 range from him, due to how the animation actually works.

Its slower than ranger, yes. Its faster than thief. I did not make any mistakes. I counted the animation and stated it. It boosts you by exactly as much as I have said.

At any rate man, the purpose of my comparisons were to use realistic build structures for pvp while being in combat. The purpose was not to point out theoretical weird run builds designed for GW1 Droknar's Forge run. I could do the same thing for Thief, point out of a bunch theoretical options that could improve its movement speed and init gain, ect ect, but that's unrealistic.

You couldnt. Youre pretty much hitting the cap. Roll for initiative, perhaps, but that barely boosts you, and then youre tapped out. The purpose was to show that in horizontal movement thief is faster than ranger and warrior, and you failed to show that at all, because its not true.

But just to humour you, what if it was in-combat? Well lets start with warrior. Its easier. 12600 over 16.45 remains the same, its not affected by in combat vs out of combat. So, 23.5 seconds of swiftness movement. Thats 280 units per second. So 23.5*280= 6580. For a total of 19180 units in 40 seconds. To compare, thief has the 7200 over 8. So, 32 seconds of movement. Lets be
very
generous and assume thief has 50% extra movement speed during the entire 32 seconds (needless to say, he wont). Thats 32*315= 10080. For a total of 17280. Thats almost 2k
less
. And that was with me being
very
generous. If we instead assume realistically the thief only has, lets say, 12 seconds of 50% movement, then its only 16580. Almost 3k less. Yeah, pretty rough for the thief, innit?

You maths are kinda off by a bita) For example you didn't calculate that Thief can use Dash (450 yards yard range) x6times in those 40 sec(2 in start + once every 10 sec) .

So I didnt. Although its 5 times, not 6. 3 at the start, then one every 10 seconds, but you dont start with dash. Thats 750 units. Less far behind, but still behind.

b) The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat

Well, I did say "its about 10 units or so". 9 to be precise. You throw in about, idk, 110 units. Its still behind.

c) Combining those 2 , you will get out of combat faster without being him and your 50% out of combat speed in stealth will be fully enabled

Nah, if you combine those 2 thief still falls behind by a lot.

and d) if you stealth , he cannot outrun you , because he cannot find you :)

Thats not how outrunning is defined.

Yeah it seems both of us haven't played much GW2 :)Daredevil has 3 dodges from the start + once per 10 sec . So in total is 7 in 40 sec

Wait did I mess up my math? Oh its 6. Not 7. You dont start with dash. You start with shortbow 5, since initiative is more important to recharge.

In an combat race , you start with the more easy available spell , in our case is Dash . Otherwise the delay from switching weapon + use the Arrow can be fatal . You can equip it while on the Dash animation

Nope, see above.

The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combatDruids and Warriors with swiftness its 33%

Percentage is meaningless, you want the real unit. That is a difference of
9
units per second. So after 40 seconds of running, youd barely be at 360. Its not much.

I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled :)

He wont actually. And this is not what the race is about. And the 50% speed is meaningless, as seen above.

a) Nope see above , you start with the Dash , you will waste 0,5 sec by equipping the shortbow and till the arrow its traveled .Its more scientific acceptable to do that while you are on the Dash animationedit: With my method (7 dashes) , i can use 2 Dash to give my resources time to recuperate + travel 900 more yards

You dont. You dont equip shortbow, and you start with shortbow because initiative is more important of a resource than endurance. Its 1.5 units per second when youre regening endurance, vs 150 per second with shortbow 5. PRetty big.

b)Its not 9 units .Its 3% difference movement increased x 40 sec = the number will be inflating even after that = they will never catch you

Its literally 9 units per second. Its 391 units per second vs 400 units per second. Its so little its irrelevant.

c) I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled will travel even more distance

Again, we start out of combat. And again, the speed makes close to no difference.

a)No sorry , but with your method you will be off by 900 yards less from your goal .Try to imagine the first dodge , as a free 450 yard Leap > arrow > dodge .With your method and 5 dodges , you will be 900 yard less and your resources will not have time to be restored

I hate having to repeat myself. The first dodge gives you about 150 units compared to just walking. The first infiltrators arrow gives you
500
units compared to just walking. And initiative is worth more than endurance. So is it now clear why you do
not
start with a dash? Good.

b) If we start out of combat , then the Warrior + Druid will be running by 33% vs 50% of you .It will be 17% difference in speed/distance x40 sec = 2040 yards and will be increasing by the second

Out of combat movement speed has a cap. At 400. With swiftness you reach 391 movement speed. So 50% only gains 9 units per seconds. So no, at most its 360 units if you ran 40 seconds with 50% vs someone with 33%. Not 2040 or anywhere
close
to it.

Try to think it more rational , you will outrun them both:)Or try to stealth and hide them :)

The one who needs to "think more rational" is the one who doesnt understand basic concepts. Do not make me repeat myself again.

a)Again you don't really understand .Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodgesWith your calculation you will not gain 900 yard extra speed ...

No I do understand. I understand you do not understand how this works. Let me explain. If you do the order "dodge > Arrow" you lose a total of 350 units at the start, and then another 150 for the second you wasted. On the other hand, if you do "Arrow > dodge", you gain 350 units and gain another 150 by not wasting a second. The latter moves you more.

b) In combat has a cap ...Out of combat has not ...

. Do not argue without understanding the basics.

a)Again read the basic too ...Swiftness doesn't put near the 400 capDont try to say something that you don't really understand

You really are making me repeat myself? Ugh. So, lets do the math. Swiftness is 33% speedboost. You start with 294 base movement speed out of combat. 294*1.33= 391. The cap is 400. So you are literally just 9 units below cap. Thats 9 units per second. Got it now?

b) its free 2x dodgesIts free 900 yardsDodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodges

No its not? You dont get anything. You just start regenerating endurance 1 second faster. Like, what if I instead use arrow, then dodge thrice, then arrow again? I gain distance. Simple, isnt it?

With you method , you will run out resources faster...

... no? You start regenerating resources faster with my method.

a) Again why do you make me repeat myself...In the PvP area the movements speed is extremly Lowered by default .Its not near the 294 ...Its like in 194-205

b) You have 2x dodges that allows you to recuperate the Arrow and not run out of resources after 15 sec .Its called Resources management !

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@Naqam a.6521 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@UNOwen.7132 lol you just say things that are wrong man.
  1. Rangers and Warriors do not outpace thief in a horizontal race. I don't understand how you can possibly argue with the breakdown that I presented.

Because the breakdown you presented is incorrect, leaves out a lot of things.
  1. You said that: "Out of combat, 33% or 50% doesnt make a difference" which is silly because in pvp you're always in combat. Even if we were talking out of combat, the DP Daredevil is still clearly faster. As much can be viewed from the breakdown.

We were talking about a horizontal race. That does not include in-combat. And if we talk out of combat, Ranger is clearly much faster, as you can see from the
corrected
breakdown. Oh and fun fact: If we were talking in-combat, warrior actually pulls ahead a lot, because they spend less time just running and more time in movement.
  1. Then you say: "Additionally in order to obtain anything close to permastealth, thief has to slow down a lot. Far more than they get from it. So, not a point." It's not about permastealth, it's about the small stealths like their heal skill, which is 24s CD traited for a 6s +50% movement, or Steal if it is traited to grant stealth with significantly large reduction in CD. Between just the heal and steal, not counting any other sources of stealth, a PD Core or DP dd is essentially getting 9s of +50% movement per 24s. That's something like 40% uptime of +50% movement my dude. So if they cycle the usage wisely, they use the porting during the 15s that the 50% movement is on CD, and run with the 50% movement for 9s while init is building back up. There is an extremely small margin of time where the thief has to WASD with only 33% Swift, very small margin of time. So yeah, that +50% movement from stealth is extremely significant in this breakdown, whether you look at from in combat or out.

"that's 50% movement on a class that can perma stealth". Quite literally what you wrote. Dont complain that I point out something you say yourself. Its not significant at all, because out of combat 33% and 50% is nearly identical (its a difference of 10 movement speed or so), and in-combat its inferior to spending more time in movement skills (if you want, I can break down in-combat movement as well. Just as a spoiler: Warrior and Ranger are faster).
  1. Shadow Step is 40s when traited in Shadow Arts my dude.

Ah, right, fair enough.
  1. You said: "Lets put it to 40 seconds, shall we? So, we get at most 1 shadowstep" No you get 2x. You use Shadow Step immediately at the start of the 60s timer, as well as 2x SB#5s. I already pointed this out in the breakdown. You do this early, first skills used, so that they come off CD faster during the 60s timer. My good bro, you get to use Shadow Step twice in the 60s race. And don't worry, I already calculated the rest of the breakdown for Range/War in the same way with their skill usage.

And even with that, Ranger is ahead. Without even using sword. And no, you didnt. You forgot a
lot
of things, as I pointed out, and made a lot of wrong assumptions.
  1. Then you go on to say: "Infiltrators arrow is not instant either. Theyre both about a second, but swoop carries you a tiny bit further." again, you're not noticing something important for this comparison. The SB#5 does have an animation time but it DOES NOT stop your WASD movement walking speed while casting it. So the Thief is still moving with WASD while the animation begins, an when it ends it instantly moves him with no interruption to the WASD movement. Swoop and Gazelle F2 or Bull's Charge or Rush, REPLACE all WASD movement and actually cause small pauses to it before and after the animations. A Swoop may be 1000 range but it is on a 10s CD that is effectively an 11s CD because the recharge doesn't begin until the 1s animation ends. The Sb#5 on the other hand, does not interrupt the initiative regen whatsoever and maintains a sound 2x 900 range uses per 12s = 1800 range per 12s, all the while not interrupting the WASD movement of the Thief at all, nor does Shadow Step or Steal.

Why does it stopping WASD movement matter, exactly? After you use Shortbow 5, no matter how or where you move, your location is locked in. You will always travel 900 units from your
original
point. Thats 900 units per second. Meanwhile Rush and swoop and whatever all finish their full animation also in a second, and you can move freely instantly. Thats 1200 units per second. Thats more distance covered in the same time. That is
all
that matters. I get what youre trying to do, muddle the waters to hide important aspects that dismantle your argument, but it doesnt work.
  1. And then this here is just entirely and completely incorrect in every possible way. You said that: "You get both Bird Swoop and Gazelle Charge, actually. You cant swap pets in-combat, but were not looking at in-combat. So thats 1200 on 12 seconds and Swoops 1200 on 18 seconds. Theyre also both about a second." OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting. When you're talking about things chasing each other and running from each other, that's what's happening, people in combat. When a Soulbeast is in combat it can't swap pets. Even if we were talking about out of combat, you are seriously not understanding some things about Ranger here. Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills. It relies on Beastmastery trait merge for a flat 30% movement speed WHILE MERGED. When you try to swap pets, they go on a 9s CD and during that 9s you do not benefit the 30% movement. Even if you were using Swiftness from the bird when it was unmerged, it only lasts 10s and it takes time to cast. Then when you swap to the Gazelle the pet swap goes on 9s CD and merge will be on a 10s CD after you left bird. So now you swap to Gazelle and you have to stand there and wait for the merge CD to come off timer before you can even get into the Gazelle to use the F2. So theoretically I see what you're trying to argue but it doesn't pan out in the way that you were thinking because of merge timer. In other words, without writing a thesis on this one aspect, you'll make better distance by camping beast mode in Gazelle for the 30% movement baseline and F2 Charge on a 13s cycle. Trying to swap pets and adding in that 9 to 10s buffer to wait to remerge will kill your skill usage cycling & distance.

Lots to unpack here. Let me just copy the important parts and address them one by one.

OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting

No we arent. Were talking about a horizontal race. You dont have a race in-combat. And the original context was about
cross-map movement
. You know, going to decap and +1? You also do that
out of combat
. So already youre very wrong.

Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills

Oh,
. Yeah thats a load of kitten. And you use it while merged. And then there are stances or warhorn or whatever.
  1. Then you say: "You get swiftness from owl + your choice between stances, warhorn, or whatever. You hit the max cap all the same." OK first of all, whatever you're referencing is not going to be any faster than any other Soulbeast build aside from some +3% gain in movement from having Swiftness over merge trait. Upon that, using warhorn and stances and owl on a Soulbeast is not a practical build to be using in pvp. You need to be using Longbow and Greatsword, and Smokescale, because when you merge and go into combat you cannot swap pets and you need the Smokescale the most for obvious reasons. So whatever you're referencing here is about as far away as it could get from a realistic build comparison.

Its not much of a boost, but its a boost. And again, talking out of combat, so you hit the movement speed cap. And sure its not a practical build because you dont care for map movement since you need vertical movement. But in WvW, its actually a build. A version of boonbeast specifically.
  1. Then you start talking about 1hand Sword on a Ranger. Just no. You suggest the idea that someone is going to run Greatsword for Swoop with a 1hand Sword with a Warhorn apparnetly for competitive purposes? Even if they did and even if they were out of combat, that 1hand Sword jump has this weird hampering effect with its animation that hinders the Ranger just enough to where it barely gains any distance at all compared to what the tooltip says. If you're talking a foot race like this, the 600 range on Sword#2 is more like 300 range in terms of distance gained because of the weird animation at the beginning and the pause at the end before the Ranger is allowed to move with WASD afterwards. And upon that man, that build would be terrible in combat regardless of if it was DPS or Bunker, doesn't matter. Those weapon sets would be hot garbage together. The days of old Boonbeast setups have been looooooong gone for awhile now man. Sword/Warhorn/Greatsword would get you jacked up in a hurry if you tried to run it in pvp or wvw.

That "weird animation" is called a cast time. Its still faster. And sure, as I said, its redundant anyway. Youre ahead. And sure it wouldnt be good for 1v1s or teamfights. But neither is thief, is it? The point is to have a hypothetical thief analogue that can move across the map if they were horizontal.
  1. And then War I'm not going to discuss because it's slower than Ranger and Ranger is slower than Thief, and the same mistakes were made while viewing the breakdown, concerning not taking into account the hampering of movement from animations. A good example on War is GS#3 Whirlwind. That skill has some serious animation hampering. It doesn't boost you ahead nearly as much as the tooltip would make you think. Using a WW alongside of a guy who was just running with Swiftness 33%, would only put you ahead maybe 60-80 range from him, due to how the animation actually works.

Its slower than ranger, yes. Its faster than thief. I did not make any mistakes. I counted the animation and stated it. It boosts you by exactly as much as I have said.

At any rate man, the purpose of my comparisons were to use realistic build structures for pvp while being in combat. The purpose was not to point out theoretical weird run builds designed for GW1 Droknar's Forge run. I could do the same thing for Thief, point out of a bunch theoretical options that could improve its movement speed and init gain, ect ect, but that's unrealistic.

You couldnt. Youre pretty much hitting the cap. Roll for initiative, perhaps, but that barely boosts you, and then youre tapped out. The purpose was to show that in horizontal movement thief is faster than ranger and warrior, and you failed to show that at all, because its not true.

But just to humour you, what if it was in-combat? Well lets start with warrior. Its easier. 12600 over 16.45 remains the same, its not affected by in combat vs out of combat. So, 23.5 seconds of swiftness movement. Thats 280 units per second. So 23.5*280= 6580. For a total of 19180 units in 40 seconds. To compare, thief has the 7200 over 8. So, 32 seconds of movement. Lets be
very
generous and assume thief has 50% extra movement speed during the entire 32 seconds (needless to say, he wont). Thats 32*315= 10080. For a total of 17280. Thats almost 2k
less
. And that was with me being
very
generous. If we instead assume realistically the thief only has, lets say, 12 seconds of 50% movement, then its only 16580. Almost 3k less. Yeah, pretty rough for the thief, innit?

You maths are kinda off by a bita) For example you didn't calculate that Thief can use Dash (450 yards yard range) x6times in those 40 sec(2 in start + once every 10 sec) .

So I didnt. Although its 5 times, not 6. 3 at the start, then one every 10 seconds, but you dont start with dash. Thats 750 units. Less far behind, but still behind.

b) The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat

Well, I did say "its about 10 units or so". 9 to be precise. You throw in about, idk, 110 units. Its still behind.

c) Combining those 2 , you will get out of combat faster without being him and your 50% out of combat speed in stealth will be fully enabled

Nah, if you combine those 2 thief still falls behind by a lot.

and d) if you stealth , he cannot outrun you , because he cannot find you :)

Thats not how outrunning is defined.

Yeah it seems both of us haven't played much GW2 :)Daredevil has 3 dodges from the start + once per 10 sec . So in total is 7 in 40 sec

Wait did I mess up my math? Oh its 6. Not 7. You dont start with dash. You start with shortbow 5, since initiative is more important to recharge.

In an combat race , you start with the more easy available spell , in our case is Dash . Otherwise the delay from switching weapon + use the Arrow can be fatal . You can equip it while on the Dash animation

Nope, see above.

The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combatDruids and Warriors with swiftness its 33%

Percentage is meaningless, you want the real unit. That is a difference of
9
units per second. So after 40 seconds of running, youd barely be at 360. Its not much.

I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled :)

He wont actually. And this is not what the race is about. And the 50% speed is meaningless, as seen above.

a) Nope see above , you start with the Dash , you will waste 0,5 sec by equipping the shortbow and till the arrow its traveled .Its more scientific acceptable to do that while you are on the Dash animationedit: With my method (7 dashes) , i can use 2 Dash to give my resources time to recuperate + travel 900 more yards

You dont. You dont equip shortbow, and you start with shortbow because initiative is more important of a resource than endurance. Its 1.5 units per second when youre regening endurance, vs 150 per second with shortbow 5. PRetty big.

b)Its not 9 units .Its 3% difference movement increased x 40 sec = the number will be inflating even after that = they will never catch you

Its literally 9 units per second. Its 391 units per second vs 400 units per second. Its so little its irrelevant.

c) I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled will travel even more distance

Again, we start out of combat. And again, the speed makes close to no difference.

a)No sorry , but with your method you will be off by 900 yards less from your goal .Try to imagine the first dodge , as a free 450 yard Leap > arrow > dodge .With your method and 5 dodges , you will be 900 yard less and your resources will not have time to be restored

I hate having to repeat myself. The first dodge gives you about 150 units compared to just walking. The first infiltrators arrow gives you
500
units compared to just walking. And initiative is worth more than endurance. So is it now clear why you do
not
start with a dash? Good.

b) If we start out of combat , then the Warrior + Druid will be running by 33% vs 50% of you .It will be 17% difference in speed/distance x40 sec = 2040 yards and will be increasing by the second

Out of combat movement speed has a cap. At 400. With swiftness you reach 391 movement speed. So 50% only gains 9 units per seconds. So no, at most its 360 units if you ran 40 seconds with 50% vs someone with 33%. Not 2040 or anywhere
close
to it.

Try to think it more rational , you will outrun them both:)Or try to stealth and hide them :)

The one who needs to "think more rational" is the one who doesnt understand basic concepts. Do not make me repeat myself again.

a)Again you don't really understand .Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodgesWith your calculation you will not gain 900 yard extra speed ...

No I do understand. I understand you do not understand how this works. Let me explain. If you do the order "dodge > Arrow" you lose a total of 350 units at the start, and then another 150 for the second you wasted. On the other hand, if you do "Arrow > dodge", you gain 350 units and gain another 150 by not wasting a second. The latter moves you more.

b) In combat has a cap ...Out of combat has not ...

. Do not argue without understanding the basics.

a)Again read the basic too ...Swiftness doesn't put near the 400 capDont try to say something that you don't really understand

You really are making me repeat myself? Ugh. So, lets do the math. Swiftness is 33% speedboost. You start with 294 base movement speed out of combat. 294*1.33= 391. The cap is 400. So you are literally just 9 units below cap. Thats 9 units per second. Got it now?

b) its free 2x dodgesIts free 900 yardsDodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodges

No its not? You dont get anything. You just start regenerating endurance 1 second faster. Like, what if I instead use arrow, then dodge thrice, then arrow again? I gain distance. Simple, isnt it?

With you method , you will run out resources faster...

... no? You start regenerating resources faster with my method.

a) Again why do you make me repeat myself...In the PvP area the movements speed is extremly Lowered by default .Its not near the 294 ...Its like in 194-205

.... no? Its not? What the bloody hell are you talking about. Movement speed and its cap doesnt change other than in-combat vs out of combat. If it did ,the wiki would say it. Are you just a bad troll?

b) You have 2x dodges that allows you to recuperate the Arrow and not run out of resources after 15 sec .Its called Resources management !

No, its called "Not understanding how resources work". You regenerate the arrow as soon as you use it. By dashing first you lose 1 second of initiative regeneration and gain nothing. You lose distance traveled. Its wrong. Do you finally get it?

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@UNOwen.7132 lol you just say things that are wrong man.
  1. Rangers and Warriors do not outpace thief in a horizontal race. I don't understand how you can possibly argue with the breakdown that I presented.

Because the breakdown you presented is incorrect, leaves out a lot of things.
  1. You said that: "Out of combat, 33% or 50% doesnt make a difference" which is silly because in pvp you're always in combat. Even if we were talking out of combat, the DP Daredevil is still clearly faster. As much can be viewed from the breakdown.

We were talking about a horizontal race. That does not include in-combat. And if we talk out of combat, Ranger is clearly much faster, as you can see from the
corrected
breakdown. Oh and fun fact: If we were talking in-combat, warrior actually pulls ahead a lot, because they spend less time just running and more time in movement.
  1. Then you say: "Additionally in order to obtain anything close to permastealth, thief has to slow down a lot. Far more than they get from it. So, not a point." It's not about permastealth, it's about the small stealths like their heal skill, which is 24s CD traited for a 6s +50% movement, or Steal if it is traited to grant stealth with significantly large reduction in CD. Between just the heal and steal, not counting any other sources of stealth, a PD Core or DP dd is essentially getting 9s of +50% movement per 24s. That's something like 40% uptime of +50% movement my dude. So if they cycle the usage wisely, they use the porting during the 15s that the 50% movement is on CD, and run with the 50% movement for 9s while init is building back up. There is an extremely small margin of time where the thief has to WASD with only 33% Swift, very small margin of time. So yeah, that +50% movement from stealth is extremely significant in this breakdown, whether you look at from in combat or out.

"that's 50% movement on a class that can perma stealth". Quite literally what you wrote. Dont complain that I point out something you say yourself. Its not significant at all, because out of combat 33% and 50% is nearly identical (its a difference of 10 movement speed or so), and in-combat its inferior to spending more time in movement skills (if you want, I can break down in-combat movement as well. Just as a spoiler: Warrior and Ranger are faster).
  1. Shadow Step is 40s when traited in Shadow Arts my dude.

Ah, right, fair enough.
  1. You said: "Lets put it to 40 seconds, shall we? So, we get at most 1 shadowstep" No you get 2x. You use Shadow Step immediately at the start of the 60s timer, as well as 2x SB#5s. I already pointed this out in the breakdown. You do this early, first skills used, so that they come off CD faster during the 60s timer. My good bro, you get to use Shadow Step twice in the 60s race. And don't worry, I already calculated the rest of the breakdown for Range/War in the same way with their skill usage.

And even with that, Ranger is ahead. Without even using sword. And no, you didnt. You forgot a
lot
of things, as I pointed out, and made a lot of wrong assumptions.
  1. Then you go on to say: "Infiltrators arrow is not instant either. Theyre both about a second, but swoop carries you a tiny bit further." again, you're not noticing something important for this comparison. The SB#5 does have an animation time but it DOES NOT stop your WASD movement walking speed while casting it. So the Thief is still moving with WASD while the animation begins, an when it ends it instantly moves him with no interruption to the WASD movement. Swoop and Gazelle F2 or Bull's Charge or Rush, REPLACE all WASD movement and actually cause small pauses to it before and after the animations. A Swoop may be 1000 range but it is on a 10s CD that is effectively an 11s CD because the recharge doesn't begin until the 1s animation ends. The Sb#5 on the other hand, does not interrupt the initiative regen whatsoever and maintains a sound 2x 900 range uses per 12s = 1800 range per 12s, all the while not interrupting the WASD movement of the Thief at all, nor does Shadow Step or Steal.

Why does it stopping WASD movement matter, exactly? After you use Shortbow 5, no matter how or where you move, your location is locked in. You will always travel 900 units from your
original
point. Thats 900 units per second. Meanwhile Rush and swoop and whatever all finish their full animation also in a second, and you can move freely instantly. Thats 1200 units per second. Thats more distance covered in the same time. That is
all
that matters. I get what youre trying to do, muddle the waters to hide important aspects that dismantle your argument, but it doesnt work.
  1. And then this here is just entirely and completely incorrect in every possible way. You said that: "You get both Bird Swoop and Gazelle Charge, actually. You cant swap pets in-combat, but were not looking at in-combat. So thats 1200 on 12 seconds and Swoops 1200 on 18 seconds. Theyre also both about a second." OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting. When you're talking about things chasing each other and running from each other, that's what's happening, people in combat. When a Soulbeast is in combat it can't swap pets. Even if we were talking about out of combat, you are seriously not understanding some things about Ranger here. Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills. It relies on Beastmastery trait merge for a flat 30% movement speed WHILE MERGED. When you try to swap pets, they go on a 9s CD and during that 9s you do not benefit the 30% movement. Even if you were using Swiftness from the bird when it was unmerged, it only lasts 10s and it takes time to cast. Then when you swap to the Gazelle the pet swap goes on 9s CD and merge will be on a 10s CD after you left bird. So now you swap to Gazelle and you have to stand there and wait for the merge CD to come off timer before you can even get into the Gazelle to use the F2. So theoretically I see what you're trying to argue but it doesn't pan out in the way that you were thinking because of merge timer. In other words, without writing a thesis on this one aspect, you'll make better distance by camping beast mode in Gazelle for the 30% movement baseline and F2 Charge on a 13s cycle. Trying to swap pets and adding in that 9 to 10s buffer to wait to remerge will kill your skill usage cycling & distance.

Lots to unpack here. Let me just copy the important parts and address them one by one.

OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting

No we arent. Were talking about a horizontal race. You dont have a race in-combat. And the original context was about
cross-map movement
. You know, going to decap and +1? You also do that
out of combat
. So already youre very wrong.

Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills

Oh,
. Yeah thats a load of kitten. And you use it while merged. And then there are stances or warhorn or whatever.
  1. Then you say: "You get swiftness from owl + your choice between stances, warhorn, or whatever. You hit the max cap all the same." OK first of all, whatever you're referencing is not going to be any faster than any other Soulbeast build aside from some +3% gain in movement from having Swiftness over merge trait. Upon that, using warhorn and stances and owl on a Soulbeast is not a practical build to be using in pvp. You need to be using Longbow and Greatsword, and Smokescale, because when you merge and go into combat you cannot swap pets and you need the Smokescale the most for obvious reasons. So whatever you're referencing here is about as far away as it could get from a realistic build comparison.

Its not much of a boost, but its a boost. And again, talking out of combat, so you hit the movement speed cap. And sure its not a practical build because you dont care for map movement since you need vertical movement. But in WvW, its actually a build. A version of boonbeast specifically.
  1. Then you start talking about 1hand Sword on a Ranger. Just no. You suggest the idea that someone is going to run Greatsword for Swoop with a 1hand Sword with a Warhorn apparnetly for competitive purposes? Even if they did and even if they were out of combat, that 1hand Sword jump has this weird hampering effect with its animation that hinders the Ranger just enough to where it barely gains any distance at all compared to what the tooltip says. If you're talking a foot race like this, the 600 range on Sword#2 is more like 300 range in terms of distance gained because of the weird animation at the beginning and the pause at the end before the Ranger is allowed to move with WASD afterwards. And upon that man, that build would be terrible in combat regardless of if it was DPS or Bunker, doesn't matter. Those weapon sets would be hot garbage together. The days of old Boonbeast setups have been looooooong gone for awhile now man. Sword/Warhorn/Greatsword would get you jacked up in a hurry if you tried to run it in pvp or wvw.

That "weird animation" is called a cast time. Its still faster. And sure, as I said, its redundant anyway. Youre ahead. And sure it wouldnt be good for 1v1s or teamfights. But neither is thief, is it? The point is to have a hypothetical thief analogue that can move across the map if they were horizontal.
  1. And then War I'm not going to discuss because it's slower than Ranger and Ranger is slower than Thief, and the same mistakes were made while viewing the breakdown, concerning not taking into account the hampering of movement from animations. A good example on War is GS#3 Whirlwind. That skill has some serious animation hampering. It doesn't boost you ahead nearly as much as the tooltip would make you think. Using a WW alongside of a guy who was just running with Swiftness 33%, would only put you ahead maybe 60-80 range from him, due to how the animation actually works.

Its slower than ranger, yes. Its faster than thief. I did not make any mistakes. I counted the animation and stated it. It boosts you by exactly as much as I have said.

At any rate man, the purpose of my comparisons were to use realistic build structures for pvp while being in combat. The purpose was not to point out theoretical weird run builds designed for GW1 Droknar's Forge run. I could do the same thing for Thief, point out of a bunch theoretical options that could improve its movement speed and init gain, ect ect, but that's unrealistic.

You couldnt. Youre pretty much hitting the cap. Roll for initiative, perhaps, but that barely boosts you, and then youre tapped out. The purpose was to show that in horizontal movement thief is faster than ranger and warrior, and you failed to show that at all, because its not true.

But just to humour you, what if it was in-combat? Well lets start with warrior. Its easier. 12600 over 16.45 remains the same, its not affected by in combat vs out of combat. So, 23.5 seconds of swiftness movement. Thats 280 units per second. So 23.5*280= 6580. For a total of 19180 units in 40 seconds. To compare, thief has the 7200 over 8. So, 32 seconds of movement. Lets be
very
generous and assume thief has 50% extra movement speed during the entire 32 seconds (needless to say, he wont). Thats 32*315= 10080. For a total of 17280. Thats almost 2k
less
. And that was with me being
very
generous. If we instead assume realistically the thief only has, lets say, 12 seconds of 50% movement, then its only 16580. Almost 3k less. Yeah, pretty rough for the thief, innit?

You maths are kinda off by a bita) For example you didn't calculate that Thief can use Dash (450 yards yard range) x6times in those 40 sec(2 in start + once every 10 sec) .

So I didnt. Although its 5 times, not 6. 3 at the start, then one every 10 seconds, but you dont start with dash. Thats 750 units. Less far behind, but still behind.

b) The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat

Well, I did say "its about 10 units or so". 9 to be precise. You throw in about, idk, 110 units. Its still behind.

c) Combining those 2 , you will get out of combat faster without being him and your 50% out of combat speed in stealth will be fully enabled

Nah, if you combine those 2 thief still falls behind by a lot.

and d) if you stealth , he cannot outrun you , because he cannot find you :)

Thats not how outrunning is defined.

Yeah it seems both of us haven't played much GW2 :)Daredevil has 3 dodges from the start + once per 10 sec . So in total is 7 in 40 sec

Wait did I mess up my math? Oh its 6. Not 7. You dont start with dash. You start with shortbow 5, since initiative is more important to recharge.

In an combat race , you start with the more easy available spell , in our case is Dash . Otherwise the delay from switching weapon + use the Arrow can be fatal . You can equip it while on the Dash animation

Nope, see above.

The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combatDruids and Warriors with swiftness its 33%

Percentage is meaningless, you want the real unit. That is a difference of
9
units per second. So after 40 seconds of running, youd barely be at 360. Its not much.

I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled :)

He wont actually. And this is not what the race is about. And the 50% speed is meaningless, as seen above.

a) Nope see above , you start with the Dash , you will waste 0,5 sec by equipping the shortbow and till the arrow its traveled .Its more scientific acceptable to do that while you are on the Dash animationedit: With my method (7 dashes) , i can use 2 Dash to give my resources time to recuperate + travel 900 more yards

You dont. You dont equip shortbow, and you start with shortbow because initiative is more important of a resource than endurance. Its 1.5 units per second when youre regening endurance, vs 150 per second with shortbow 5. PRetty big.

b)Its not 9 units .Its 3% difference movement increased x 40 sec = the number will be inflating even after that = they will never catch you

Its literally 9 units per second. Its 391 units per second vs 400 units per second. Its so little its irrelevant.

c) I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled will travel even more distance

Again, we start out of combat. And again, the speed makes close to no difference.

a)No sorry , but with your method you will be off by 900 yards less from your goal .Try to imagine the first dodge , as a free 450 yard Leap > arrow > dodge .With your method and 5 dodges , you will be 900 yard less and your resources will not have time to be restored

I hate having to repeat myself. The first dodge gives you about 150 units compared to just walking. The first infiltrators arrow gives you
500
units compared to just walking. And initiative is worth more than endurance. So is it now clear why you do
not
start with a dash? Good.

b) If we start out of combat , then the Warrior + Druid will be running by 33% vs 50% of you .It will be 17% difference in speed/distance x40 sec = 2040 yards and will be increasing by the second

Out of combat movement speed has a cap. At 400. With swiftness you reach 391 movement speed. So 50% only gains 9 units per seconds. So no, at most its 360 units if you ran 40 seconds with 50% vs someone with 33%. Not 2040 or anywhere
close
to it.

Try to think it more rational , you will outrun them both:)Or try to stealth and hide them :)

The one who needs to "think more rational" is the one who doesnt understand basic concepts. Do not make me repeat myself again.

a)Again you don't really understand .Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodgesWith your calculation you will not gain 900 yard extra speed ...

No I do understand. I understand you do not understand how this works. Let me explain. If you do the order "dodge > Arrow" you lose a total of 350 units at the start, and then another 150 for the second you wasted. On the other hand, if you do "Arrow > dodge", you gain 350 units and gain another 150 by not wasting a second. The latter moves you more.

b) In combat has a cap ...Out of combat has not ...

. Do not argue without understanding the basics.

a)Again read the basic too ...Swiftness doesn't put near the 400 capDont try to say something that you don't really understand

You really are making me repeat myself? Ugh. So, lets do the math. Swiftness is 33% speedboost. You start with 294 base movement speed out of combat. 294*1.33= 391. The cap is 400. So you are literally just 9 units below cap. Thats 9 units per second. Got it now?

b) its free 2x dodgesIts free 900 yardsDodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodges

No its not? You dont get anything. You just start regenerating endurance 1 second faster. Like, what if I instead use arrow, then dodge thrice, then arrow again? I gain distance. Simple, isnt it?

With you method , you will run out resources faster...

... no? You start regenerating resources faster with my method.

a) Again why do you make me repeat myself...In the PvP area the movements speed is extremly Lowered by default .Its not near the 294 ...Its like in 194-205

.... no? Its not? What the bloody hell are you talking about. Movement speed and its cap doesnt change other than in-combat vs out of combat. If it did ,the wiki would say it. Are you just a bad troll?

b) You have 2x dodges that allows you to recuperate the Arrow and not run out of resources after 15 sec .Its called Resources management !

No, its called "Not understanding how resources work". You regenerate the arrow as soon as you use it. By dashing first you lose 1 second of initiative regeneration and gain nothing. You lose distance traveled. Its
wrong
. Do you finally get it?

a) PvE out of combat speed is different from the PvP ones .Just go in the PvE and and use any speed boost , you will know the difference ....

b) With you method you will run out of resources in less than a min (3 Arrows-5 dodges)By my calculations you will waste 2xFREE DODGES , GAIN 900 YARD DISTANCE and then have your remaining 5x dodges + 3 arrows to manage as you wish

I understand that you are new to the game . But ask me next time . I played from Beta till the release of HoT

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@Naqam a.6521 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@UNOwen.7132 lol you just say things that are wrong man.
  1. Rangers and Warriors do not outpace thief in a horizontal race. I don't understand how you can possibly argue with the breakdown that I presented.

Because the breakdown you presented is incorrect, leaves out a lot of things.
  1. You said that: "Out of combat, 33% or 50% doesnt make a difference" which is silly because in pvp you're always in combat. Even if we were talking out of combat, the DP Daredevil is still clearly faster. As much can be viewed from the breakdown.

We were talking about a horizontal race. That does not include in-combat. And if we talk out of combat, Ranger is clearly much faster, as you can see from the
corrected
breakdown. Oh and fun fact: If we were talking in-combat, warrior actually pulls ahead a lot, because they spend less time just running and more time in movement.
  1. Then you say: "Additionally in order to obtain anything close to permastealth, thief has to slow down a lot. Far more than they get from it. So, not a point." It's not about permastealth, it's about the small stealths like their heal skill, which is 24s CD traited for a 6s +50% movement, or Steal if it is traited to grant stealth with significantly large reduction in CD. Between just the heal and steal, not counting any other sources of stealth, a PD Core or DP dd is essentially getting 9s of +50% movement per 24s. That's something like 40% uptime of +50% movement my dude. So if they cycle the usage wisely, they use the porting during the 15s that the 50% movement is on CD, and run with the 50% movement for 9s while init is building back up. There is an extremely small margin of time where the thief has to WASD with only 33% Swift, very small margin of time. So yeah, that +50% movement from stealth is extremely significant in this breakdown, whether you look at from in combat or out.

"that's 50% movement on a class that can perma stealth". Quite literally what you wrote. Dont complain that I point out something you say yourself. Its not significant at all, because out of combat 33% and 50% is nearly identical (its a difference of 10 movement speed or so), and in-combat its inferior to spending more time in movement skills (if you want, I can break down in-combat movement as well. Just as a spoiler: Warrior and Ranger are faster).
  1. Shadow Step is 40s when traited in Shadow Arts my dude.

Ah, right, fair enough.
  1. You said: "Lets put it to 40 seconds, shall we? So, we get at most 1 shadowstep" No you get 2x. You use Shadow Step immediately at the start of the 60s timer, as well as 2x SB#5s. I already pointed this out in the breakdown. You do this early, first skills used, so that they come off CD faster during the 60s timer. My good bro, you get to use Shadow Step twice in the 60s race. And don't worry, I already calculated the rest of the breakdown for Range/War in the same way with their skill usage.

And even with that, Ranger is ahead. Without even using sword. And no, you didnt. You forgot a
lot
of things, as I pointed out, and made a lot of wrong assumptions.
  1. Then you go on to say: "Infiltrators arrow is not instant either. Theyre both about a second, but swoop carries you a tiny bit further." again, you're not noticing something important for this comparison. The SB#5 does have an animation time but it DOES NOT stop your WASD movement walking speed while casting it. So the Thief is still moving with WASD while the animation begins, an when it ends it instantly moves him with no interruption to the WASD movement. Swoop and Gazelle F2 or Bull's Charge or Rush, REPLACE all WASD movement and actually cause small pauses to it before and after the animations. A Swoop may be 1000 range but it is on a 10s CD that is effectively an 11s CD because the recharge doesn't begin until the 1s animation ends. The Sb#5 on the other hand, does not interrupt the initiative regen whatsoever and maintains a sound 2x 900 range uses per 12s = 1800 range per 12s, all the while not interrupting the WASD movement of the Thief at all, nor does Shadow Step or Steal.

Why does it stopping WASD movement matter, exactly? After you use Shortbow 5, no matter how or where you move, your location is locked in. You will always travel 900 units from your
original
point. Thats 900 units per second. Meanwhile Rush and swoop and whatever all finish their full animation also in a second, and you can move freely instantly. Thats 1200 units per second. Thats more distance covered in the same time. That is
all
that matters. I get what youre trying to do, muddle the waters to hide important aspects that dismantle your argument, but it doesnt work.
  1. And then this here is just entirely and completely incorrect in every possible way. You said that: "You get both Bird Swoop and Gazelle Charge, actually. You cant swap pets in-combat, but were not looking at in-combat. So thats 1200 on 12 seconds and Swoops 1200 on 18 seconds. Theyre also both about a second." OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting. When you're talking about things chasing each other and running from each other, that's what's happening, people in combat. When a Soulbeast is in combat it can't swap pets. Even if we were talking about out of combat, you are seriously not understanding some things about Ranger here. Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills. It relies on Beastmastery trait merge for a flat 30% movement speed WHILE MERGED. When you try to swap pets, they go on a 9s CD and during that 9s you do not benefit the 30% movement. Even if you were using Swiftness from the bird when it was unmerged, it only lasts 10s and it takes time to cast. Then when you swap to the Gazelle the pet swap goes on 9s CD and merge will be on a 10s CD after you left bird. So now you swap to Gazelle and you have to stand there and wait for the merge CD to come off timer before you can even get into the Gazelle to use the F2. So theoretically I see what you're trying to argue but it doesn't pan out in the way that you were thinking because of merge timer. In other words, without writing a thesis on this one aspect, you'll make better distance by camping beast mode in Gazelle for the 30% movement baseline and F2 Charge on a 13s cycle. Trying to swap pets and adding in that 9 to 10s buffer to wait to remerge will kill your skill usage cycling & distance.

Lots to unpack here. Let me just copy the important parts and address them one by one.

OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting

No we arent. Were talking about a horizontal race. You dont have a race in-combat. And the original context was about
cross-map movement
. You know, going to decap and +1? You also do that
out of combat
. So already youre very wrong.

Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills

Oh,
. Yeah thats a load of kitten. And you use it while merged. And then there are stances or warhorn or whatever.
  1. Then you say: "You get swiftness from owl + your choice between stances, warhorn, or whatever. You hit the max cap all the same." OK first of all, whatever you're referencing is not going to be any faster than any other Soulbeast build aside from some +3% gain in movement from having Swiftness over merge trait. Upon that, using warhorn and stances and owl on a Soulbeast is not a practical build to be using in pvp. You need to be using Longbow and Greatsword, and Smokescale, because when you merge and go into combat you cannot swap pets and you need the Smokescale the most for obvious reasons. So whatever you're referencing here is about as far away as it could get from a realistic build comparison.

Its not much of a boost, but its a boost. And again, talking out of combat, so you hit the movement speed cap. And sure its not a practical build because you dont care for map movement since you need vertical movement. But in WvW, its actually a build. A version of boonbeast specifically.
  1. Then you start talking about 1hand Sword on a Ranger. Just no. You suggest the idea that someone is going to run Greatsword for Swoop with a 1hand Sword with a Warhorn apparnetly for competitive purposes? Even if they did and even if they were out of combat, that 1hand Sword jump has this weird hampering effect with its animation that hinders the Ranger just enough to where it barely gains any distance at all compared to what the tooltip says. If you're talking a foot race like this, the 600 range on Sword#2 is more like 300 range in terms of distance gained because of the weird animation at the beginning and the pause at the end before the Ranger is allowed to move with WASD afterwards. And upon that man, that build would be terrible in combat regardless of if it was DPS or Bunker, doesn't matter. Those weapon sets would be hot garbage together. The days of old Boonbeast setups have been looooooong gone for awhile now man. Sword/Warhorn/Greatsword would get you jacked up in a hurry if you tried to run it in pvp or wvw.

That "weird animation" is called a cast time. Its still faster. And sure, as I said, its redundant anyway. Youre ahead. And sure it wouldnt be good for 1v1s or teamfights. But neither is thief, is it? The point is to have a hypothetical thief analogue that can move across the map if they were horizontal.
  1. And then War I'm not going to discuss because it's slower than Ranger and Ranger is slower than Thief, and the same mistakes were made while viewing the breakdown, concerning not taking into account the hampering of movement from animations. A good example on War is GS#3 Whirlwind. That skill has some serious animation hampering. It doesn't boost you ahead nearly as much as the tooltip would make you think. Using a WW alongside of a guy who was just running with Swiftness 33%, would only put you ahead maybe 60-80 range from him, due to how the animation actually works.

Its slower than ranger, yes. Its faster than thief. I did not make any mistakes. I counted the animation and stated it. It boosts you by exactly as much as I have said.

At any rate man, the purpose of my comparisons were to use realistic build structures for pvp while being in combat. The purpose was not to point out theoretical weird run builds designed for GW1 Droknar's Forge run. I could do the same thing for Thief, point out of a bunch theoretical options that could improve its movement speed and init gain, ect ect, but that's unrealistic.

You couldnt. Youre pretty much hitting the cap. Roll for initiative, perhaps, but that barely boosts you, and then youre tapped out. The purpose was to show that in horizontal movement thief is faster than ranger and warrior, and you failed to show that at all, because its not true.

But just to humour you, what if it was in-combat? Well lets start with warrior. Its easier. 12600 over 16.45 remains the same, its not affected by in combat vs out of combat. So, 23.5 seconds of swiftness movement. Thats 280 units per second. So 23.5*280= 6580. For a total of 19180 units in 40 seconds. To compare, thief has the 7200 over 8. So, 32 seconds of movement. Lets be
very
generous and assume thief has 50% extra movement speed during the entire 32 seconds (needless to say, he wont). Thats 32*315= 10080. For a total of 17280. Thats almost 2k
less
. And that was with me being
very
generous. If we instead assume realistically the thief only has, lets say, 12 seconds of 50% movement, then its only 16580. Almost 3k less. Yeah, pretty rough for the thief, innit?

You maths are kinda off by a bita) For example you didn't calculate that Thief can use Dash (450 yards yard range) x6times in those 40 sec(2 in start + once every 10 sec) .

So I didnt. Although its 5 times, not 6. 3 at the start, then one every 10 seconds, but you dont start with dash. Thats 750 units. Less far behind, but still behind.

b) The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat

Well, I did say "its about 10 units or so". 9 to be precise. You throw in about, idk, 110 units. Its still behind.

c) Combining those 2 , you will get out of combat faster without being him and your 50% out of combat speed in stealth will be fully enabled

Nah, if you combine those 2 thief still falls behind by a lot.

and d) if you stealth , he cannot outrun you , because he cannot find you :)

Thats not how outrunning is defined.

Yeah it seems both of us haven't played much GW2 :)Daredevil has 3 dodges from the start + once per 10 sec . So in total is 7 in 40 sec

Wait did I mess up my math? Oh its 6. Not 7. You dont start with dash. You start with shortbow 5, since initiative is more important to recharge.

In an combat race , you start with the more easy available spell , in our case is Dash . Otherwise the delay from switching weapon + use the Arrow can be fatal . You can equip it while on the Dash animation

Nope, see above.

The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combatDruids and Warriors with swiftness its 33%

Percentage is meaningless, you want the real unit. That is a difference of
9
units per second. So after 40 seconds of running, youd barely be at 360. Its not much.

I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled :)

He wont actually. And this is not what the race is about. And the 50% speed is meaningless, as seen above.

a) Nope see above , you start with the Dash , you will waste 0,5 sec by equipping the shortbow and till the arrow its traveled .Its more scientific acceptable to do that while you are on the Dash animationedit: With my method (7 dashes) , i can use 2 Dash to give my resources time to recuperate + travel 900 more yards

You dont. You dont equip shortbow, and you start with shortbow because initiative is more important of a resource than endurance. Its 1.5 units per second when youre regening endurance, vs 150 per second with shortbow 5. PRetty big.

b)Its not 9 units .Its 3% difference movement increased x 40 sec = the number will be inflating even after that = they will never catch you

Its literally 9 units per second. Its 391 units per second vs 400 units per second. Its so little its irrelevant.

c) I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled will travel even more distance

Again, we start out of combat. And again, the speed makes close to no difference.

a)No sorry , but with your method you will be off by 900 yards less from your goal .Try to imagine the first dodge , as a free 450 yard Leap > arrow > dodge .With your method and 5 dodges , you will be 900 yard less and your resources will not have time to be restored

I hate having to repeat myself. The first dodge gives you about 150 units compared to just walking. The first infiltrators arrow gives you
500
units compared to just walking. And initiative is worth more than endurance. So is it now clear why you do
not
start with a dash? Good.

b) If we start out of combat , then the Warrior + Druid will be running by 33% vs 50% of you .It will be 17% difference in speed/distance x40 sec = 2040 yards and will be increasing by the second

Out of combat movement speed has a cap. At 400. With swiftness you reach 391 movement speed. So 50% only gains 9 units per seconds. So no, at most its 360 units if you ran 40 seconds with 50% vs someone with 33%. Not 2040 or anywhere
close
to it.

Try to think it more rational , you will outrun them both:)Or try to stealth and hide them :)

The one who needs to "think more rational" is the one who doesnt understand basic concepts. Do not make me repeat myself again.

a)Again you don't really understand .Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodgesWith your calculation you will not gain 900 yard extra speed ...

No I do understand. I understand you do not understand how this works. Let me explain. If you do the order "dodge > Arrow" you lose a total of 350 units at the start, and then another 150 for the second you wasted. On the other hand, if you do "Arrow > dodge", you gain 350 units and gain another 150 by not wasting a second. The latter moves you more.

b) In combat has a cap ...Out of combat has not ...

. Do not argue without understanding the basics.

a)Again read the basic too ...Swiftness doesn't put near the 400 capDont try to say something that you don't really understand

You really are making me repeat myself? Ugh. So, lets do the math. Swiftness is 33% speedboost. You start with 294 base movement speed out of combat. 294*1.33= 391. The cap is 400. So you are literally just 9 units below cap. Thats 9 units per second. Got it now?

b) its free 2x dodgesIts free 900 yardsDodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodges

No its not? You dont get anything. You just start regenerating endurance 1 second faster. Like, what if I instead use arrow, then dodge thrice, then arrow again? I gain distance. Simple, isnt it?

With you method , you will run out resources faster...

... no? You start regenerating resources faster with my method.

a) Again why do you make me repeat myself...In the PvP area the movements speed is extremly Lowered by default .Its not near the 294 ...Its like in 194-205

.... no? Its not? What the bloody hell are you talking about. Movement speed and its cap doesnt change other than in-combat vs out of combat. If it did ,the wiki would say it. Are you just a bad troll?

b) You have 2x dodges that allows you to recuperate the Arrow and not run out of resources after 15 sec .Its called Resources management !

No, its called "Not understanding how resources work". You regenerate the arrow as soon as you use it. By dashing first you lose 1 second of initiative regeneration and gain nothing. You lose distance traveled. Its
wrong
. Do you finally get it?

a) PvE out of combat speed is different from the PvP ones .Just go in the PvE and and use any speed boost , you will know the difference ....

NO IT IS NOT. If that
were
the case the wiki article would mention it. It doesnt. Because that isnt the case. And I did. What I found was "speed was the exact same". Youre really just that dense, arent you?

b) With you method you will run out of resources in less than a min (3 Arrows-5 dodges)By my calculations you will waste 2xFREE DODGES , GAIN 900 YARD DISTANCE and then have your remaining 5x dodges + 3 arrows to manage as you wish

Now youre just saying words without meaning. No, with my method I will not run out of resources any faster than with your method. I will however
regain
resources faster than with your method. I do not waste "anything". I
gain
150 units distance compared to your method. Are you just a new player who doesnt know how GW2 works yet?

I understand that you are new to the game . But ask me next time . I played from Beta till the release of HoT

Yeah right. The guy who doesnt understand resources or even how movement speed works totally "played since the beta". Look either youre new, or youre a troll. Either way, youre wrong, I have shown youre wrong, and youre getting on my nerves. So accept that youre wrong, or just shut up.

You simply lack some informations that it kinda ''stealthy'' .Its ok because you are kinda new .The Warclaw moves at 394 u/s in WvWvW (
)And players with Swiftness + no other mobility skills get outpaced by Warclaws .

Oh wow, you really just dont know anything. Here is the actual warclaws speed. Its not 394. Its 453. And thats without using the mobility skill. No duh players with swiftness get outpaced, Warclaw is a lot faster.

204 u/s x33% swiftness = 271 u/s for a player in the PvP areas

This is just numbers you pulled out of your arse with no basis in anything.

394-271 = 122 u/s (the mount gains 120 yards each second , outpacing the player )

453 vs 394. Again, wrong, and completely pulled out of your arse. The funny thing is, you literally had a piece of evidence in your hands where you could see that youre wrong. Remember this? Its the mount speed research tab you poorly linked. Lets look at this little line: "On foot: WvW; 100% Swiftness Speed: 392.". Now, PvE: "Land; 100% Swiftness Speed: 392". Whats this? Its literally the same? Who would ever have guessed.

I am sorry , but you are wrong ...

I am not, but you clearly are. And youre not sorry, youre a troll.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@UNOwen.7132 lol you just say things that are wrong man.
  1. Rangers and Warriors do not outpace thief in a horizontal race. I don't understand how you can possibly argue with the breakdown that I presented.

Because the breakdown you presented is incorrect, leaves out a lot of things.
  1. You said that: "Out of combat, 33% or 50% doesnt make a difference" which is silly because in pvp you're always in combat. Even if we were talking out of combat, the DP Daredevil is still clearly faster. As much can be viewed from the breakdown.

We were talking about a horizontal race. That does not include in-combat. And if we talk out of combat, Ranger is clearly much faster, as you can see from the
corrected
breakdown. Oh and fun fact: If we were talking in-combat, warrior actually pulls ahead a lot, because they spend less time just running and more time in movement.
  1. Then you say: "Additionally in order to obtain anything close to permastealth, thief has to slow down a lot. Far more than they get from it. So, not a point." It's not about permastealth, it's about the small stealths like their heal skill, which is 24s CD traited for a 6s +50% movement, or Steal if it is traited to grant stealth with significantly large reduction in CD. Between just the heal and steal, not counting any other sources of stealth, a PD Core or DP dd is essentially getting 9s of +50% movement per 24s. That's something like 40% uptime of +50% movement my dude. So if they cycle the usage wisely, they use the porting during the 15s that the 50% movement is on CD, and run with the 50% movement for 9s while init is building back up. There is an extremely small margin of time where the thief has to WASD with only 33% Swift, very small margin of time. So yeah, that +50% movement from stealth is extremely significant in this breakdown, whether you look at from in combat or out.

"that's 50% movement on a class that can perma stealth". Quite literally what you wrote. Dont complain that I point out something you say yourself. Its not significant at all, because out of combat 33% and 50% is nearly identical (its a difference of 10 movement speed or so), and in-combat its inferior to spending more time in movement skills (if you want, I can break down in-combat movement as well. Just as a spoiler: Warrior and Ranger are faster).
  1. Shadow Step is 40s when traited in Shadow Arts my dude.

Ah, right, fair enough.
  1. You said: "Lets put it to 40 seconds, shall we? So, we get at most 1 shadowstep" No you get 2x. You use Shadow Step immediately at the start of the 60s timer, as well as 2x SB#5s. I already pointed this out in the breakdown. You do this early, first skills used, so that they come off CD faster during the 60s timer. My good bro, you get to use Shadow Step twice in the 60s race. And don't worry, I already calculated the rest of the breakdown for Range/War in the same way with their skill usage.

And even with that, Ranger is ahead. Without even using sword. And no, you didnt. You forgot a
lot
of things, as I pointed out, and made a lot of wrong assumptions.
  1. Then you go on to say: "Infiltrators arrow is not instant either. Theyre both about a second, but swoop carries you a tiny bit further." again, you're not noticing something important for this comparison. The SB#5 does have an animation time but it DOES NOT stop your WASD movement walking speed while casting it. So the Thief is still moving with WASD while the animation begins, an when it ends it instantly moves him with no interruption to the WASD movement. Swoop and Gazelle F2 or Bull's Charge or Rush, REPLACE all WASD movement and actually cause small pauses to it before and after the animations. A Swoop may be 1000 range but it is on a 10s CD that is effectively an 11s CD because the recharge doesn't begin until the 1s animation ends. The Sb#5 on the other hand, does not interrupt the initiative regen whatsoever and maintains a sound 2x 900 range uses per 12s = 1800 range per 12s, all the while not interrupting the WASD movement of the Thief at all, nor does Shadow Step or Steal.

Why does it stopping WASD movement matter, exactly? After you use Shortbow 5, no matter how or where you move, your location is locked in. You will always travel 900 units from your
original
point. Thats 900 units per second. Meanwhile Rush and swoop and whatever all finish their full animation also in a second, and you can move freely instantly. Thats 1200 units per second. Thats more distance covered in the same time. That is
all
that matters. I get what youre trying to do, muddle the waters to hide important aspects that dismantle your argument, but it doesnt work.
  1. And then this here is just entirely and completely incorrect in every possible way. You said that: "You get both Bird Swoop and Gazelle Charge, actually. You cant swap pets in-combat, but were not looking at in-combat. So thats 1200 on 12 seconds and Swoops 1200 on 18 seconds. Theyre also both about a second." OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting. When you're talking about things chasing each other and running from each other, that's what's happening, people in combat. When a Soulbeast is in combat it can't swap pets. Even if we were talking about out of combat, you are seriously not understanding some things about Ranger here. Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills. It relies on Beastmastery trait merge for a flat 30% movement speed WHILE MERGED. When you try to swap pets, they go on a 9s CD and during that 9s you do not benefit the 30% movement. Even if you were using Swiftness from the bird when it was unmerged, it only lasts 10s and it takes time to cast. Then when you swap to the Gazelle the pet swap goes on 9s CD and merge will be on a 10s CD after you left bird. So now you swap to Gazelle and you have to stand there and wait for the merge CD to come off timer before you can even get into the Gazelle to use the F2. So theoretically I see what you're trying to argue but it doesn't pan out in the way that you were thinking because of merge timer. In other words, without writing a thesis on this one aspect, you'll make better distance by camping beast mode in Gazelle for the 30% movement baseline and F2 Charge on a 13s cycle. Trying to swap pets and adding in that 9 to 10s buffer to wait to remerge will kill your skill usage cycling & distance.

Lots to unpack here. Let me just copy the important parts and address them one by one.

OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting

No we arent. Were talking about a horizontal race. You dont have a race in-combat. And the original context was about
cross-map movement
. You know, going to decap and +1? You also do that
out of combat
. So already youre very wrong.

Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills

Oh,
. Yeah thats a load of kitten. And you use it while merged. And then there are stances or warhorn or whatever.
  1. Then you say: "You get swiftness from owl + your choice between stances, warhorn, or whatever. You hit the max cap all the same." OK first of all, whatever you're referencing is not going to be any faster than any other Soulbeast build aside from some +3% gain in movement from having Swiftness over merge trait. Upon that, using warhorn and stances and owl on a Soulbeast is not a practical build to be using in pvp. You need to be using Longbow and Greatsword, and Smokescale, because when you merge and go into combat you cannot swap pets and you need the Smokescale the most for obvious reasons. So whatever you're referencing here is about as far away as it could get from a realistic build comparison.

Its not much of a boost, but its a boost. And again, talking out of combat, so you hit the movement speed cap. And sure its not a practical build because you dont care for map movement since you need vertical movement. But in WvW, its actually a build. A version of boonbeast specifically.
  1. Then you start talking about 1hand Sword on a Ranger. Just no. You suggest the idea that someone is going to run Greatsword for Swoop with a 1hand Sword with a Warhorn apparnetly for competitive purposes? Even if they did and even if they were out of combat, that 1hand Sword jump has this weird hampering effect with its animation that hinders the Ranger just enough to where it barely gains any distance at all compared to what the tooltip says. If you're talking a foot race like this, the 600 range on Sword#2 is more like 300 range in terms of distance gained because of the weird animation at the beginning and the pause at the end before the Ranger is allowed to move with WASD afterwards. And upon that man, that build would be terrible in combat regardless of if it was DPS or Bunker, doesn't matter. Those weapon sets would be hot garbage together. The days of old Boonbeast setups have been looooooong gone for awhile now man. Sword/Warhorn/Greatsword would get you jacked up in a hurry if you tried to run it in pvp or wvw.

That "weird animation" is called a cast time. Its still faster. And sure, as I said, its redundant anyway. Youre ahead. And sure it wouldnt be good for 1v1s or teamfights. But neither is thief, is it? The point is to have a hypothetical thief analogue that can move across the map if they were horizontal.
  1. And then War I'm not going to discuss because it's slower than Ranger and Ranger is slower than Thief, and the same mistakes were made while viewing the breakdown, concerning not taking into account the hampering of movement from animations. A good example on War is GS#3 Whirlwind. That skill has some serious animation hampering. It doesn't boost you ahead nearly as much as the tooltip would make you think. Using a WW alongside of a guy who was just running with Swiftness 33%, would only put you ahead maybe 60-80 range from him, due to how the animation actually works.

Its slower than ranger, yes. Its faster than thief. I did not make any mistakes. I counted the animation and stated it. It boosts you by exactly as much as I have said.

At any rate man, the purpose of my comparisons were to use realistic build structures for pvp while being in combat. The purpose was not to point out theoretical weird run builds designed for GW1 Droknar's Forge run. I could do the same thing for Thief, point out of a bunch theoretical options that could improve its movement speed and init gain, ect ect, but that's unrealistic.

You couldnt. Youre pretty much hitting the cap. Roll for initiative, perhaps, but that barely boosts you, and then youre tapped out. The purpose was to show that in horizontal movement thief is faster than ranger and warrior, and you failed to show that at all, because its not true.

But just to humour you, what if it was in-combat? Well lets start with warrior. Its easier. 12600 over 16.45 remains the same, its not affected by in combat vs out of combat. So, 23.5 seconds of swiftness movement. Thats 280 units per second. So 23.5*280= 6580. For a total of 19180 units in 40 seconds. To compare, thief has the 7200 over 8. So, 32 seconds of movement. Lets be
very
generous and assume thief has 50% extra movement speed during the entire 32 seconds (needless to say, he wont). Thats 32*315= 10080. For a total of 17280. Thats almost 2k
less
. And that was with me being
very
generous. If we instead assume realistically the thief only has, lets say, 12 seconds of 50% movement, then its only 16580. Almost 3k less. Yeah, pretty rough for the thief, innit?

You maths are kinda off by a bita) For example you didn't calculate that Thief can use Dash (450 yards yard range) x6times in those 40 sec(2 in start + once every 10 sec) .

So I didnt. Although its 5 times, not 6. 3 at the start, then one every 10 seconds, but you dont start with dash. Thats 750 units. Less far behind, but still behind.

b) The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combat

Well, I did say "its about 10 units or so". 9 to be precise. You throw in about, idk, 110 units. Its still behind.

c) Combining those 2 , you will get out of combat faster without being him and your 50% out of combat speed in stealth will be fully enabled

Nah, if you combine those 2 thief still falls behind by a lot.

and d) if you stealth , he cannot outrun you , because he cannot find you :)

Thats not how outrunning is defined.

Yeah it seems both of us haven't played much GW2 :)Daredevil has 3 dodges from the start + once per 10 sec . So in total is 7 in 40 sec

Wait did I mess up my math? Oh its 6. Not 7. You dont start with dash. You start with shortbow 5, since initiative is more important to recharge.

In an combat race , you start with the more easy available spell , in our case is Dash . Otherwise the delay from switching weapon + use the Arrow can be fatal . You can equip it while on the Dash animation

Nope, see above.

The 50% speed bonus on stealth is translated into 36-37% movement speed in combatDruids and Warriors with swiftness its 33%

Percentage is meaningless, you want the real unit. That is a difference of
9
units per second. So after 40 seconds of running, youd barely be at 360. Its not much.

I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled :)

He wont actually. And this is not what the race is about. And the 50% speed is meaningless, as seen above.

a) Nope see above , you start with the Dash , you will waste 0,5 sec by equipping the shortbow and till the arrow its traveled .Its more scientific acceptable to do that while you are on the Dash animationedit: With my method (7 dashes) , i can use 2 Dash to give my resources time to recuperate + travel 900 more yards

You dont. You dont equip shortbow, and you start with shortbow because initiative is more important of a resource than endurance. Its 1.5 units per second when youre regening endurance, vs 150 per second with shortbow 5. PRetty big.

b)Its not 9 units .Its 3% difference movement increased x 40 sec = the number will be inflating even after that = they will never catch you

Its literally 9 units per second. Its 391 units per second vs 400 units per second. Its so little its irrelevant.

c) I pretty sure the Thiefs will get out of combat faster and his 50% speed will be enabled will travel even more distance

Again, we start out of combat. And again, the speed makes close to no difference.

a)No sorry , but with your method you will be off by 900 yards less from your goal .Try to imagine the first dodge , as a free 450 yard Leap > arrow > dodge .With your method and 5 dodges , you will be 900 yard less and your resources will not have time to be restored

I hate having to repeat myself. The first dodge gives you about 150 units compared to just walking. The first infiltrators arrow gives you
500
units compared to just walking. And initiative is worth more than endurance. So is it now clear why you do
not
start with a dash? Good.

b) If we start out of combat , then the Warrior + Druid will be running by 33% vs 50% of you .It will be 17% difference in speed/distance x40 sec = 2040 yards and will be increasing by the second

Out of combat movement speed has a cap. At 400. With swiftness you reach 391 movement speed. So 50% only gains 9 units per seconds. So no, at most its 360 units if you ran 40 seconds with 50% vs someone with 33%. Not 2040 or anywhere
close
to it.

Try to think it more rational , you will outrun them both:)Or try to stealth and hide them :)

The one who needs to "think more rational" is the one who doesnt understand basic concepts. Do not make me repeat myself again.

a)Again you don't really understand .Dodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodgesWith your calculation you will not gain 900 yard extra speed ...

No I do understand. I understand you do not understand how this works. Let me explain. If you do the order "dodge > Arrow" you lose a total of 350 units at the start, and then another 150 for the second you wasted. On the other hand, if you do "Arrow > dodge", you gain 350 units and gain another 150 by not wasting a second. The latter moves you more.

b) In combat has a cap ...Out of combat has not ...

. Do not argue without understanding the basics.

a)Again read the basic too ...Swiftness doesn't put near the 400 capDont try to say something that you don't really understand

You really are making me repeat myself? Ugh. So, lets do the math. Swiftness is 33% speedboost. You start with 294 base movement speed out of combat. 294*1.33= 391. The cap is 400. So you are literally just 9 units below cap. Thats 9 units per second. Got it now?

b) its free 2x dodgesIts free 900 yardsDodge >Arrow > 2x FREE DODGES > arrow > dodges

No its not? You dont get anything. You just start regenerating endurance 1 second faster. Like, what if I instead use arrow, then dodge thrice, then arrow again? I gain distance. Simple, isnt it?

With you method , you will run out resources faster...

... no? You start regenerating resources faster with my method.

a) Again why do you make me repeat myself...In the PvP area the movements speed is extremly Lowered by default .Its not near the 294 ...Its like in 194-205

.... no? Its not? What the bloody hell are you talking about. Movement speed and its cap doesnt change other than in-combat vs out of combat. If it did ,the wiki would say it. Are you just a bad troll?

b) You have 2x dodges that allows you to recuperate the Arrow and not run out of resources after 15 sec .Its called Resources management !

No, its called "Not understanding how resources work". You regenerate the arrow as soon as you use it. By dashing first you lose 1 second of initiative regeneration and gain nothing. You lose distance traveled. Its
wrong
. Do you finally get it?

a) PvE out of combat speed is different from the PvP ones .Just go in the PvE and and use any speed boost , you will know the difference ....

NO IT IS NOT. If that
were
the case the wiki article would mention it. It doesnt. Because that isnt the case. And I did. What I found was "speed was the exact same". Youre really just that dense, arent you?

b) With you method you will run out of resources in less than a min (3 Arrows-5 dodges)By my calculations you will waste 2xFREE DODGES , GAIN 900 YARD DISTANCE and then have your remaining 5x dodges + 3 arrows to manage as you wish

Now youre just saying words without meaning. No, with my method I will not run out of resources any faster than with your method. I will however
regain
resources faster than with your method. I do not waste "anything". I
gain
150 units distance compared to your method. Are you just a new player who doesnt know how GW2 works yet?

I understand that you are new to the game . But ask me next time . I played from Beta till the release of HoT

Yeah right. The guy who doesnt understand resources or even how movement speed works totally "played since the beta". Look either youre new, or youre a troll. Either way, youre wrong, I have shown youre wrong, and youre getting on my nerves. So accept that youre wrong, or just shut up.

You simply lack some informations that it kinda ''stealthy'' .Its ok because you are kinda new .The Warclaw moves at 394 u/s in WvWvW (
)And players with Swiftness + no other mobility skills get outpaced by Warclaws .

Oh wow, you really just dont know anything.
is the actual warclaws speed. Its not 394. Its 453. And thats
without
using the mobility skill. No duh players with swiftness get outpaced, Warclaw is a lot faster.

204 u/s x33% swiftness = 271 u/s for a player in the PvP areas

This is just numbers you pulled out of your kitten with no basis in anything.

394-271 = 122 u/s (the mount gains 120 yards each second , outpacing the player )

453 vs 394. Again, wrong, and completely pulled out of your kitten. The funny thing is, you
literally
had a piece of evidence in your hands where you could see that youre wrong. Remember
? Its the mount speed research tab you poorly linked. Lets look at this little line: "On foot: WvW; 100% Swiftness Speed: 392.". Now, PvE: "Land; 100% Swiftness Speed: 392". Whats this? Its
literally the same
? Who would ever have guessed.

I am sorry , but you are wrong ...

I am not, but you clearly are. And youre not sorry, youre a troll.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WarclawIts movement speed in PvE is about 539 u/sIts base Movement Speed in WvW is about 453 u/s

If the Warclaw is 453 u/s and the person is 394 in WvWvW , we wouldnt see such humogous distance per secEach second the effect is trippled in WvWvW

You seeI got it right that PvP + PvE speed have different values :)

You youngster , i forgive you for not researching properly

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@Naqam a.6521 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@UNOwen.7132 lol you just say things that are wrong man.
  1. Rangers and Warriors do not outpace thief in a horizontal race. I don't understand how you can possibly argue with the breakdown that I presented.

Because the breakdown you presented is incorrect, leaves out a lot of things.
  1. You said that: "Out of combat, 33% or 50% doesnt make a difference" which is silly because in pvp you're always in combat. Even if we were talking out of combat, the DP Daredevil is still clearly faster. As much can be viewed from the breakdown.

We were talking about a horizontal race. That does not include in-combat. And if we talk out of combat, Ranger is clearly much faster, as you can see from the
corrected
breakdown. Oh and fun fact: If we were talking in-combat, warrior actually pulls ahead a lot, because they spend less time just running and more time in movement.
  1. Then you say: "Additionally in order to obtain anything close to permastealth, thief has to slow down a lot. Far more than they get from it. So, not a point." It's not about permastealth, it's about the small stealths like their heal skill, which is 24s CD traited for a 6s +50% movement, or Steal if it is traited to grant stealth with significantly large reduction in CD. Between just the heal and steal, not counting any other sources of stealth, a PD Core or DP dd is essentially getting 9s of +50% movement per 24s. That's something like 40% uptime of +50% movement my dude. So if they cycle the usage wisely, they use the porting during the 15s that the 50% movement is on CD, and run with the 50% movement for 9s while init is building back up. There is an extremely small margin of time where the thief has to WASD with only 33% Swift, very small margin of time. So yeah, that +50% movement from stealth is extremely significant in this breakdown, whether you look at from in combat or out.

"that's 50% movement on a class that can perma stealth". Quite literally what you wrote. Dont complain that I point out something you say yourself. Its not significant at all, because out of combat 33% and 50% is nearly identical (its a difference of 10 movement speed or so), and in-combat its inferior to spending more time in movement skills (if you want, I can break down in-combat movement as well. Just as a spoiler: Warrior and Ranger are faster).
  1. Shadow Step is 40s when traited in Shadow Arts my dude.

Ah, right, fair enough.
  1. You said: "Lets put it to 40 seconds, shall we? So, we get at most 1 shadowstep" No you get 2x. You use Shadow Step immediately at the start of the 60s timer, as well as 2x SB#5s. I already pointed this out in the breakdown. You do this early, first skills used, so that they come off CD faster during the 60s timer. My good bro, you get to use Shadow Step twice in the 60s race. And don't worry, I already calculated the rest of the breakdown for Range/War in the same way with their skill usage.

And even with that, Ranger is ahead. Without even using sword. And no, you didnt. You forgot a
lot
of things, as I pointed out, and made a lot of wrong assumptions.
  1. Then you go on to say: "Infiltrators arrow is not instant either. Theyre both about a second, but swoop carries you a tiny bit further." again, you're not noticing something important for this comparison. The SB#5 does have an animation time but it DOES NOT stop your WASD movement walking speed while casting it. So the Thief is still moving with WASD while the animation begins, an when it ends it instantly moves him with no interruption to the WASD movement. Swoop and Gazelle F2 or Bull's Charge or Rush, REPLACE all WASD movement and actually cause small pauses to it before and after the animations. A Swoop may be 1000 range but it is on a 10s CD that is effectively an 11s CD because the recharge doesn't begin until the 1s animation ends. The Sb#5 on the other hand, does not interrupt the initiative regen whatsoever and maintains a sound 2x 900 range uses per 12s = 1800 range per 12s, all the while not interrupting the WASD movement of the Thief at all, nor does Shadow Step or Steal.

Why does it stopping WASD movement matter, exactly? After you use Shortbow 5, no matter how or where you move, your location is locked in. You will always travel 900 units from your
original
point. Thats 900 units per second. Meanwhile Rush and swoop and whatever all finish their full animation also in a second, and you can move freely instantly. Thats 1200 units per second. Thats more distance covered in the same time. That is
all
that matters. I get what youre trying to do, muddle the waters to hide important aspects that dismantle your argument, but it doesnt work.
  1. And then this here is just entirely and completely incorrect in every possible way. You said that: "You get both Bird Swoop and Gazelle Charge, actually. You cant swap pets in-combat, but were not looking at in-combat. So thats 1200 on 12 seconds and Swoops 1200 on 18 seconds. Theyre also both about a second." OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting. When you're talking about things chasing each other and running from each other, that's what's happening, people in combat. When a Soulbeast is in combat it can't swap pets. Even if we were talking about out of combat, you are seriously not understanding some things about Ranger here. Again, Soulbeast does not use Swiftness skills. It relies on Beastmastery trait merge for a flat 30% movement speed WHILE MERGED. When you try to swap pets, they go on a 9s CD and during that 9s you do not benefit the 30% movement. Even if you were using Swiftness from the bird when it was unmerged, it only lasts 10s and it takes time to cast. Then when you swap to the Gazelle the pet swap goes on 9s CD and merge will be on a 10s CD after you left bird. So now you swap to Gazelle and you have to stand there and wait for the merge CD to come off timer before you can even get into the Gazelle to use the F2. So theoretically I see what you're trying to argue but it doesn't pan out in the way that you were thinking because of merge timer. In other words, without writing a thesis on this one aspect, you'll make better distance by camping beast mode in Gazelle for the 30% movement baseline and F2 Charge on a 13s cycle. Trying to swap pets and adding in that 9 to 10s buffer to wait to remerge will kill your skill usage cycling & distance.

Lots to unpack here. Let me just copy the important parts and address them one by one.

OK so first, we are looking at in-combat because that's what happens in a pvp setting