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Follow Up to my Original Post, "The Death of Thief"


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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Holy kitten are people actually trying to argue thief ISN'T the highest mobility in the game?

No. Only that it isnt the highest
horizontal
mobility. Doesnt matter outside of WvW, but its a fact.

It's unambiguously the fastest, even without vertical porting short cuts. The level of bias to even think thief is slow compared to warrior and ranger is to a degree of outright derangement.

Its not, and if you played WvW at all you would know that. Thief can escape from everyone (because you can quickly port out of combat and mount up), but a thief will
never
catch a warrior or a ranger in a flat plane in WvW. Because when their dashes can actually go the full distance without such annoying things as inclines shortening their effective mobility, well then ranger and warrior just move more in less time.

Even when you crunch the numbers on the movement skills it doesn't add up.

Warrior movement from skills over one minute; 16,550Soulbeast Movement from skills over one minute: 12,600Daredevil movement from skills over one minute: 19,650

Lets address a few things all at once here. First, movement from skills isnt as important as movement from skills over time. Second, there is no way Daredevil got anywhere close to 19650. Off of shortbow 5 alone, thats 2 at the start, and one every 6 seconds. So, 12. 10800 from that. Then you add 2 shadowsteps, which is 2400. And then ... youre running dry. Even if you add perfect about face roll for initiative, thats 1800 +1160. Even using both of those (which no one does anymore) youre 3000 short. On the other hand, you severely underestimated Rangers movement. Just from Swoop + Gazelles charge + bird swoop alone, Ranger gets 1200 every 12 seconds, and then 1200 every 9 seconds (you alternate the 2). In a minute, that amounts to 6 swoops and 7 pets charges. Thats 15600, not 12600. And if we maximise movement like you did with thief, we get to add monarchs leap and lightning Zephyr.

But we dont need to. See more important than just the raw values, is how much time it took to travel that. And thats where Ranger pulls ahead. Infiltrators arrow takes 1 second to travel, for 900 units. Swoop and the pet dashes take 1 second to travel for 1200 range. Every time ranger moves 33% more during that bit. And well, I think you can see how they pull ahead now.

I was able to do a variation Foefire lap test in 48 seconds with Daredevil+Shadow Arts+Shadow Step+Roll For Initiative. Warrior I got it down to 57 seconds, and that was taking Greatsword, Warrior's Sprint, Bulls Charge in addition to using plus using Sword Balanced Stance and Featherfoot Grace for even more movement speed. And the terrain doesn't especially favor thief. Soulbeast I got down to 55 seconds and that's with Sword+Warhorn+Greatsword+Deer Charge and enough nonmeta utilities to give 100% Swiftness uptime. If you aren't careful inclines will screw over your Infiltator's Arrows. And as long as your latency is fine slopes and inclines don't hamper dashing movement, it's actually pretty fair to do a lap around Foefire for testing purposes.

Yeah turns out if you use a vertical map the class that has a vertical advantage has ... an advantage. No duh. The terrain heavily favours thief. Inclines of any kind reduce the effectiveness of a dash. They do not reduce the effectiveness of infiltrators arrow. We saw this beautifully illustrated in Trevors shoddy attempt, where multiple dashes moved half the distance or less thanks to an incline. What fair is a perfectly flat stretch the likes of which you only find in WvW. So try it out in WvW.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Holy kitten are people actually trying to argue thief ISN'T the highest mobility in the game?

No. Only that it isnt the highest
horizontal
mobility. Doesnt matter outside of WvW, but its a fact.

It's unambiguously the fastest, even without vertical porting short cuts. The level of bias to even think thief is slow compared to warrior and ranger is to a degree of outright derangement.

Its not, and if you played WvW at all you would know that. Thief can escape from everyone (because you can quickly port out of combat and mount up), but a thief will
never
catch a warrior or a ranger in a flat plane in WvW. Because when their dashes can actually go the full distance without such annoying things as inclines shortening their effective mobility, well then ranger and warrior just move more in less time.

Even when you crunch the numbers on the movement skills it doesn't add up.

Warrior movement from skills over one minute; 16,550Soulbeast Movement from skills over one minute: 12,600Daredevil movement from skills over one minute: 19,650

Lets address a few things all at once here. First, movement from skills isnt as important as movement from skills
over time
. Second, there is no way Daredevil got anywhere
close
to 19650. Off of shortbow 5 alone, thats 2 at the start, and one every 6 seconds. So, 12. 10800 from that. Then you add 2 shadowsteps, which is 2400. And then ... youre running dry. Even if you add perfect about face roll for initiative, thats 1800 +1160. Even using both of those (which no one does anymore) youre 3000 short. On the other hand, you
severely
underestimated Rangers movement. Just from Swoop + Gazelles charge + bird swoop alone, Ranger gets 1200 every 12 seconds, and then 1200 every 9 seconds (you alternate the 2). In a minute, that amounts to 6 swoops and 7 pets charges. Thats 15600, not 12600. And if we maximise movement like you did with thief, we get to add monarchs leap and lightning Zephyr.

But we dont need to. See more important than just the raw values, is how much time it took to travel that. And thats where Ranger pulls ahead. Infiltrators arrow takes 1 second to travel, for 900 units. Swoop and the pet dashes take 1 second to travel for
1200
range. Every time ranger moves 33% more during that bit. And well, I think you can see how they pull ahead now.

I was able to do a variation Foefire lap test in 48 seconds with Daredevil+Shadow Arts+Shadow Step+Roll For Initiative. Warrior I got it down to 57 seconds, and that was taking Greatsword, Warrior's Sprint, Bulls Charge in addition to using plus using Sword Balanced Stance and Featherfoot Grace for even more movement speed. And the terrain doesn't especially favor thief. Soulbeast I got down to 55 seconds and that's with Sword+Warhorn+Greatsword+Deer Charge and enough nonmeta utilities to give 100% Swiftness uptime. If you aren't careful inclines will screw over your Infiltator's Arrows. And as long as your latency is fine slopes and inclines don't hamper dashing movement, it's actually pretty fair to do a lap around Foefire for testing purposes.

Yeah turns out if you use a vertical map the class that has a vertical advantage has ... an advantage. No duh. The terrain heavily favours thief. Inclines of any kind reduce the effectiveness of a dash. They do not reduce the effectiveness of infiltrators arrow. We saw this beautifully illustrated in Trevors shoddy attempt, where multiple dashes moved half the distance or less thanks to an incline. What fair is a perfectly flat stretch the likes of which you only find in WvW. So try it out in WvW.

Daredevil dodge dash is a 450 movement skill, not even counting permanent swiftness it provides.

Trevor's dashes failed not because of inclines, but because of clear latency issues causing that sort of positioning lag most prominent using physical movement skills. My attempts had 0 issue with any dash type skill not fully providing it's entire movement with 50ms.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Holy kitten are people actually trying to argue thief ISN'T the highest mobility in the game?

No. Only that it isnt the highest
horizontal
mobility. Doesnt matter outside of WvW, but its a fact.

It's unambiguously the fastest, even without vertical porting short cuts. The level of bias to even think thief is slow compared to warrior and ranger is to a degree of outright derangement.

Its not, and if you played WvW at all you would know that. Thief can escape from everyone (because you can quickly port out of combat and mount up), but a thief will
never
catch a warrior or a ranger in a flat plane in WvW. Because when their dashes can actually go the full distance without such annoying things as inclines shortening their effective mobility, well then ranger and warrior just move more in less time.

Even when you crunch the numbers on the movement skills it doesn't add up.

Warrior movement from skills over one minute; 16,550Soulbeast Movement from skills over one minute: 12,600Daredevil movement from skills over one minute: 19,650

Lets address a few things all at once here. First, movement from skills isnt as important as movement from skills
over time
. Second, there is no way Daredevil got anywhere
close
to 19650. Off of shortbow 5 alone, thats 2 at the start, and one every 6 seconds. So, 12. 10800 from that. Then you add 2 shadowsteps, which is 2400. And then ... youre running dry. Even if you add perfect about face roll for initiative, thats 1800 +1160. Even using both of those (which no one does anymore) youre 3000 short. On the other hand, you
severely
underestimated Rangers movement. Just from Swoop + Gazelles charge + bird swoop alone, Ranger gets 1200 every 12 seconds, and then 1200 every 9 seconds (you alternate the 2). In a minute, that amounts to 6 swoops and 7 pets charges. Thats 15600, not 12600. And if we maximise movement like you did with thief, we get to add monarchs leap and lightning Zephyr.

But we dont need to. See more important than just the raw values, is how much time it took to travel that. And thats where Ranger pulls ahead. Infiltrators arrow takes 1 second to travel, for 900 units. Swoop and the pet dashes take 1 second to travel for
1200
range. Every time ranger moves 33% more during that bit. And well, I think you can see how they pull ahead now.

I was able to do a variation Foefire lap test in 48 seconds with Daredevil+Shadow Arts+Shadow Step+Roll For Initiative. Warrior I got it down to 57 seconds, and that was taking Greatsword, Warrior's Sprint, Bulls Charge in addition to using plus using Sword Balanced Stance and Featherfoot Grace for even more movement speed. And the terrain doesn't especially favor thief. Soulbeast I got down to 55 seconds and that's with Sword+Warhorn+Greatsword+Deer Charge and enough nonmeta utilities to give 100% Swiftness uptime. If you aren't careful inclines will screw over your Infiltator's Arrows. And as long as your latency is fine slopes and inclines don't hamper dashing movement, it's actually pretty fair to do a lap around Foefire for testing purposes.

Yeah turns out if you use a vertical map the class that has a vertical advantage has ... an advantage. No duh. The terrain heavily favours thief. Inclines of any kind reduce the effectiveness of a dash. They do not reduce the effectiveness of infiltrators arrow. We saw this beautifully illustrated in Trevors shoddy attempt, where multiple dashes moved half the distance or less thanks to an incline. What fair is a perfectly flat stretch the likes of which you only find in WvW. So try it out in WvW.

Daredevil dodge dash is a 450 movement skill, not even counting permanent swiftness it provides.

I figured youd do that, but here is the issue. If you include the enhanced dodges, I include the regular dodges. That only closes the gap by 150 each time. Thats a total of, what, 1350? Youre still a few thousand behind, even before the time factor comes in.

Trevor's dashes failed not because of inclines, but because of clear latency issues causing that sort of positioning lag most prominent using physical movement skills. My attempts had 0 issue with any dash type skill not fully providing it's entire movement with 50ms.

No, its because inclines mess with dashes. What latency might have explained is the time he got completely stuck, but that wasnt an incline.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Holy kitten are people actually trying to argue thief ISN'T the highest mobility in the game?

No. Only that it isnt the highest
horizontal
mobility. Doesnt matter outside of WvW, but its a fact.

It's unambiguously the fastest, even without vertical porting short cuts. The level of bias to even think thief is slow compared to warrior and ranger is to a degree of outright derangement.

Its not, and if you played WvW at all you would know that. Thief can escape from everyone (because you can quickly port out of combat and mount up), but a thief will
never
catch a warrior or a ranger in a flat plane in WvW. Because when their dashes can actually go the full distance without such annoying things as inclines shortening their effective mobility, well then ranger and warrior just move more in less time.

Even when you crunch the numbers on the movement skills it doesn't add up.

Warrior movement from skills over one minute; 16,550Soulbeast Movement from skills over one minute: 12,600Daredevil movement from skills over one minute: 19,650

Lets address a few things all at once here. First, movement from skills isnt as important as movement from skills
over time
. Second, there is no way Daredevil got anywhere
close
to 19650. Off of shortbow 5 alone, thats 2 at the start, and one every 6 seconds. So, 12. 10800 from that. Then you add 2 shadowsteps, which is 2400. And then ... youre running dry. Even if you add perfect about face roll for initiative, thats 1800 +1160. Even using both of those (which no one does anymore) youre 3000 short. On the other hand, you
severely
underestimated Rangers movement. Just from Swoop + Gazelles charge + bird swoop alone, Ranger gets 1200 every 12 seconds, and then 1200 every 9 seconds (you alternate the 2). In a minute, that amounts to 6 swoops and 7 pets charges. Thats 15600, not 12600. And if we maximise movement like you did with thief, we get to add monarchs leap and lightning Zephyr.

But we dont need to. See more important than just the raw values, is how much time it took to travel that. And thats where Ranger pulls ahead. Infiltrators arrow takes 1 second to travel, for 900 units. Swoop and the pet dashes take 1 second to travel for
1200
range. Every time ranger moves 33% more during that bit. And well, I think you can see how they pull ahead now.

I was able to do a variation Foefire lap test in 48 seconds with Daredevil+Shadow Arts+Shadow Step+Roll For Initiative. Warrior I got it down to 57 seconds, and that was taking Greatsword, Warrior's Sprint, Bulls Charge in addition to using plus using Sword Balanced Stance and Featherfoot Grace for even more movement speed. And the terrain doesn't especially favor thief. Soulbeast I got down to 55 seconds and that's with Sword+Warhorn+Greatsword+Deer Charge and enough nonmeta utilities to give 100% Swiftness uptime. If you aren't careful inclines will screw over your Infiltator's Arrows. And as long as your latency is fine slopes and inclines don't hamper dashing movement, it's actually pretty fair to do a lap around Foefire for testing purposes.

Yeah turns out if you use a vertical map the class that has a vertical advantage has ... an advantage. No duh. The terrain heavily favours thief. Inclines of any kind reduce the effectiveness of a dash. They do not reduce the effectiveness of infiltrators arrow. We saw this beautifully illustrated in Trevors shoddy attempt, where multiple dashes moved half the distance or less thanks to an incline. What fair is a perfectly flat stretch the likes of which you only find in WvW. So try it out in WvW.

Daredevil dodge dash is a 450 movement skill, not even counting permanent swiftness it provides.

I figured youd do that, but here is the issue. If you include the enhanced dodges, I include the regular dodges. That only closes the gap by 150 each time. Thats a total of, what, 1350? Youre still a few thousand behind, even
before
the time factor comes in.

Trevor's dashes failed not because of inclines, but because of clear latency issues causing that sort of positioning lag most prominent using physical movement skills. My attempts had 0 issue with any dash type skill not fully providing it's entire movement with 50ms.

No, its because inclines mess with dashes. What latency might have explained is the time he got completely stuck, but that wasnt an incline.

I genuinely do not know what you are talking about with "inclines mess with dashes". You use a 1200 unit dash skill you go 1200 units. I only notice skills acting peculiarly when latency becomes an issue at which point movement skills sometimes fail regardless of the shape of terrain.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Holy kitten are people actually trying to argue thief ISN'T the highest mobility in the game?

No. Only that it isnt the highest
horizontal
mobility. Doesnt matter outside of WvW, but its a fact.

It's unambiguously the fastest, even without vertical porting short cuts. The level of bias to even think thief is slow compared to warrior and ranger is to a degree of outright derangement.

Its not, and if you played WvW at all you would know that. Thief can escape from everyone (because you can quickly port out of combat and mount up), but a thief will
never
catch a warrior or a ranger in a flat plane in WvW. Because when their dashes can actually go the full distance without such annoying things as inclines shortening their effective mobility, well then ranger and warrior just move more in less time.

Even when you crunch the numbers on the movement skills it doesn't add up.

Warrior movement from skills over one minute; 16,550Soulbeast Movement from skills over one minute: 12,600Daredevil movement from skills over one minute: 19,650

Lets address a few things all at once here. First, movement from skills isnt as important as movement from skills
over time
. Second, there is no way Daredevil got anywhere
close
to 19650. Off of shortbow 5 alone, thats 2 at the start, and one every 6 seconds. So, 12. 10800 from that. Then you add 2 shadowsteps, which is 2400. And then ... youre running dry. Even if you add perfect about face roll for initiative, thats 1800 +1160. Even using both of those (which no one does anymore) youre 3000 short. On the other hand, you
severely
underestimated Rangers movement. Just from Swoop + Gazelles charge + bird swoop alone, Ranger gets 1200 every 12 seconds, and then 1200 every 9 seconds (you alternate the 2). In a minute, that amounts to 6 swoops and 7 pets charges. Thats 15600, not 12600. And if we maximise movement like you did with thief, we get to add monarchs leap and lightning Zephyr.

But we dont need to. See more important than just the raw values, is how much time it took to travel that. And thats where Ranger pulls ahead. Infiltrators arrow takes 1 second to travel, for 900 units. Swoop and the pet dashes take 1 second to travel for
1200
range. Every time ranger moves 33% more during that bit. And well, I think you can see how they pull ahead now.

I was able to do a variation Foefire lap test in 48 seconds with Daredevil+Shadow Arts+Shadow Step+Roll For Initiative. Warrior I got it down to 57 seconds, and that was taking Greatsword, Warrior's Sprint, Bulls Charge in addition to using plus using Sword Balanced Stance and Featherfoot Grace for even more movement speed. And the terrain doesn't especially favor thief. Soulbeast I got down to 55 seconds and that's with Sword+Warhorn+Greatsword+Deer Charge and enough nonmeta utilities to give 100% Swiftness uptime. If you aren't careful inclines will screw over your Infiltator's Arrows. And as long as your latency is fine slopes and inclines don't hamper dashing movement, it's actually pretty fair to do a lap around Foefire for testing purposes.

Yeah turns out if you use a vertical map the class that has a vertical advantage has ... an advantage. No duh. The terrain heavily favours thief. Inclines of any kind reduce the effectiveness of a dash. They do not reduce the effectiveness of infiltrators arrow. We saw this beautifully illustrated in Trevors shoddy attempt, where multiple dashes moved half the distance or less thanks to an incline. What fair is a perfectly flat stretch the likes of which you only find in WvW. So try it out in WvW.

Daredevil dodge dash is a 450 movement skill, not even counting permanent swiftness it provides.

I figured youd do that, but here is the issue. If you include the enhanced dodges, I include the regular dodges. That only closes the gap by 150 each time. Thats a total of, what, 1350? Youre still a few thousand behind, even
before
the time factor comes in.

Trevor's dashes failed not because of inclines, but because of clear latency issues causing that sort of positioning lag most prominent using physical movement skills. My attempts had 0 issue with any dash type skill not fully providing it's entire movement with 50ms.

No, its because inclines mess with dashes. What latency might have explained is the time he got completely stuck, but that wasnt an incline.

I genuinely do not know what you are talking about with "inclines mess with dashes". You use a 1200 unit dash skill you go 1200 units. I only notice skills acting peculiarly when latency becomes an issue at which point movement skills sometimes fail regardless of the shape of terrain.

To give an example, I went to Lions Arch. You know the central glass thing next to the bank? Take the ramp towards the bank. If I use infiltrators arrow down at max range (900) and use double heartseeker back up (900), I end up at least 50 units short of where I started. And every time, too. Thats what it means.

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I would like to see better usage of "preperations" they changed. ever since this trapper runes still abused by guardians and are just as "toxic" as the thieves previously abusing them. With the addition to towers with REVEALED pulsing everywhere i dont understand why we cant have it at LEAST considered as a trap and not preparation now. Take a look at line of warding, it its better as far as functionality vs Seal Area, it needs to be adjusted ( seal area ). The other elite spec, Deadeye, feels useless with the last balance patch and the rest feel gutted. Sure if it were based on an opportunity type of thief you can backstab gank someone ALREADY low, but as it stands we need sustained damage to do anything in 1v1 on points. we NEED more build diversity

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Holy kitten are people actually trying to argue thief ISN'T the highest mobility in the game?

No. Only that it isnt the highest
horizontal
mobility. Doesnt matter outside of WvW, but its a fact.

It's unambiguously the fastest, even without vertical porting short cuts. The level of bias to even think thief is slow compared to warrior and ranger is to a degree of outright derangement.

Its not, and if you played WvW at all you would know that. Thief can escape from everyone (because you can quickly port out of combat and mount up), but a thief will
never
catch a warrior or a ranger in a flat plane in WvW. Because when their dashes can actually go the full distance without such annoying things as inclines shortening their effective mobility, well then ranger and warrior just move more in less time.

Even when you crunch the numbers on the movement skills it doesn't add up.

Warrior movement from skills over one minute; 16,550Soulbeast Movement from skills over one minute: 12,600Daredevil movement from skills over one minute: 19,650

Lets address a few things all at once here. First, movement from skills isnt as important as movement from skills
over time
. Second, there is no way Daredevil got anywhere
close
to 19650. Off of shortbow 5 alone, thats 2 at the start, and one every 6 seconds. So, 12. 10800 from that. Then you add 2 shadowsteps, which is 2400. And then ... youre running dry. Even if you add perfect about face roll for initiative, thats 1800 +1160. Even using both of those (which no one does anymore) youre 3000 short. On the other hand, you
severely
underestimated Rangers movement. Just from Swoop + Gazelles charge + bird swoop alone, Ranger gets 1200 every 12 seconds, and then 1200 every 9 seconds (you alternate the 2). In a minute, that amounts to 6 swoops and 7 pets charges. Thats 15600, not 12600. And if we maximise movement like you did with thief, we get to add monarchs leap and lightning Zephyr.

But we dont need to. See more important than just the raw values, is how much time it took to travel that. And thats where Ranger pulls ahead. Infiltrators arrow takes 1 second to travel, for 900 units. Swoop and the pet dashes take 1 second to travel for
1200
range. Every time ranger moves 33% more during that bit. And well, I think you can see how they pull ahead now.

I was able to do a variation Foefire lap test in 48 seconds with Daredevil+Shadow Arts+Shadow Step+Roll For Initiative. Warrior I got it down to 57 seconds, and that was taking Greatsword, Warrior's Sprint, Bulls Charge in addition to using plus using Sword Balanced Stance and Featherfoot Grace for even more movement speed. And the terrain doesn't especially favor thief. Soulbeast I got down to 55 seconds and that's with Sword+Warhorn+Greatsword+Deer Charge and enough nonmeta utilities to give 100% Swiftness uptime. If you aren't careful inclines will screw over your Infiltator's Arrows. And as long as your latency is fine slopes and inclines don't hamper dashing movement, it's actually pretty fair to do a lap around Foefire for testing purposes.

Yeah turns out if you use a vertical map the class that has a vertical advantage has ... an advantage. No duh. The terrain heavily favours thief. Inclines of any kind reduce the effectiveness of a dash. They do not reduce the effectiveness of infiltrators arrow. We saw this beautifully illustrated in Trevors shoddy attempt, where multiple dashes moved half the distance or less thanks to an incline. What fair is a perfectly flat stretch the likes of which you only find in WvW. So try it out in WvW.

Daredevil dodge dash is a 450 movement skill, not even counting permanent swiftness it provides.

I figured youd do that, but here is the issue. If you include the enhanced dodges, I include the regular dodges. That only closes the gap by 150 each time. Thats a total of, what, 1350? Youre still a few thousand behind, even
before
the time factor comes in.

Trevor's dashes failed not because of inclines, but because of clear latency issues causing that sort of positioning lag most prominent using physical movement skills. My attempts had 0 issue with any dash type skill not fully providing it's entire movement with 50ms.

No, its because inclines mess with dashes. What latency might have explained is the time he got completely stuck, but that wasnt an incline.

I genuinely do not know what you are talking about with "inclines mess with dashes". You use a 1200 unit dash skill you go 1200 units. I only notice skills acting peculiarly when latency becomes an issue at which point movement skills sometimes fail regardless of the shape of terrain.

To give an example, I went to Lions Arch. You know the central glass thing next to the bank? Take the ramp towards the bank. If I use infiltrators arrow down at max range (900) and use double heartseeker back up (900), I end up at least 50 units short of where I started. And every time, too. Thats what it means.

You mean like this?

Seems like this is unique to heartseeker. Even on flat terrain 2x Heartseekers doesn't cover the same distance as 1x Infiltrator's Arrow. Or rather, the strike distance is including on the listed "range" of the skill, which is a bit farther than the movement the skill actually provides to the player.

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If a thief wants to use the regular dodge for 300 units over 0.75 seconds he is welcomed to do that ,He will travel 2700 yards with 9 timesIf he wants to do dash 450 yard for 0,75 he can do that also .He will travel 4050 yards with 9 times

willing to buy 4x (3+2) acounts and put them in a low pop WvWvW server in EU+ Murica for a race match .

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Holy kitten are people actually trying to argue thief ISN'T the highest mobility in the game?

No. Only that it isnt the highest
horizontal
mobility. Doesnt matter outside of WvW, but its a fact.

It's unambiguously the fastest, even without vertical porting short cuts. The level of bias to even think thief is slow compared to warrior and ranger is to a degree of outright derangement.

Its not, and if you played WvW at all you would know that. Thief can escape from everyone (because you can quickly port out of combat and mount up), but a thief will
never
catch a warrior or a ranger in a flat plane in WvW. Because when their dashes can actually go the full distance without such annoying things as inclines shortening their effective mobility, well then ranger and warrior just move more in less time.

Even when you crunch the numbers on the movement skills it doesn't add up.

Warrior movement from skills over one minute; 16,550Soulbeast Movement from skills over one minute: 12,600Daredevil movement from skills over one minute: 19,650

Lets address a few things all at once here. First, movement from skills isnt as important as movement from skills
over time
. Second, there is no way Daredevil got anywhere
close
to 19650. Off of shortbow 5 alone, thats 2 at the start, and one every 6 seconds. So, 12. 10800 from that. Then you add 2 shadowsteps, which is 2400. And then ... youre running dry. Even if you add perfect about face roll for initiative, thats 1800 +1160. Even using both of those (which no one does anymore) youre 3000 short. On the other hand, you
severely
underestimated Rangers movement. Just from Swoop + Gazelles charge + bird swoop alone, Ranger gets 1200 every 12 seconds, and then 1200 every 9 seconds (you alternate the 2). In a minute, that amounts to 6 swoops and 7 pets charges. Thats 15600, not 12600. And if we maximise movement like you did with thief, we get to add monarchs leap and lightning Zephyr.

But we dont need to. See more important than just the raw values, is how much time it took to travel that. And thats where Ranger pulls ahead. Infiltrators arrow takes 1 second to travel, for 900 units. Swoop and the pet dashes take 1 second to travel for
1200
range. Every time ranger moves 33% more during that bit. And well, I think you can see how they pull ahead now.

I was able to do a variation Foefire lap test in 48 seconds with Daredevil+Shadow Arts+Shadow Step+Roll For Initiative. Warrior I got it down to 57 seconds, and that was taking Greatsword, Warrior's Sprint, Bulls Charge in addition to using plus using Sword Balanced Stance and Featherfoot Grace for even more movement speed. And the terrain doesn't especially favor thief. Soulbeast I got down to 55 seconds and that's with Sword+Warhorn+Greatsword+Deer Charge and enough nonmeta utilities to give 100% Swiftness uptime. If you aren't careful inclines will screw over your Infiltator's Arrows. And as long as your latency is fine slopes and inclines don't hamper dashing movement, it's actually pretty fair to do a lap around Foefire for testing purposes.

Yeah turns out if you use a vertical map the class that has a vertical advantage has ... an advantage. No duh. The terrain heavily favours thief. Inclines of any kind reduce the effectiveness of a dash. They do not reduce the effectiveness of infiltrators arrow. We saw this beautifully illustrated in Trevors shoddy attempt, where multiple dashes moved half the distance or less thanks to an incline. What fair is a perfectly flat stretch the likes of which you only find in WvW. So try it out in WvW.

Daredevil dodge dash is a 450 movement skill, not even counting permanent swiftness it provides.

I figured youd do that, but here is the issue. If you include the enhanced dodges, I include the regular dodges. That only closes the gap by 150 each time. Thats a total of, what, 1350? Youre still a few thousand behind, even
before
the time factor comes in.

Trevor's dashes failed not because of inclines, but because of clear latency issues causing that sort of positioning lag most prominent using physical movement skills. My attempts had 0 issue with any dash type skill not fully providing it's entire movement with 50ms.

No, its because inclines mess with dashes. What latency might have explained is the time he got completely stuck, but that wasnt an incline.

I genuinely do not know what you are talking about with "inclines mess with dashes". You use a 1200 unit dash skill you go 1200 units. I only notice skills acting peculiarly when latency becomes an issue at which point movement skills sometimes fail regardless of the shape of terrain.

To give an example, I went to Lions Arch. You know the central glass thing next to the bank? Take the ramp towards the bank. If I use infiltrators arrow down at max range (900) and use double heartseeker back up (900), I end up at least 50 units short of where I started. And every time, too. Thats what it means.

You mean like this?

Seems like this is unique to heartseeker. Even on flat terrain 2x Heartseekers doesn't cover the same distance as 1x Infiltrator's Arrow. Or rather, the strike distance is including on the listed "range" of the skill, which is a bit farther than the movement the skill actually provides to the player.

Thats odd, because I also made a taste on flat ground to compare, and in Lions arch it covered the same distance perfectly. It might be something about that part of Divinities reach then? Though for the record, I also did the same test with Blink and Mirage Thrust, and it also fell short.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Holy kitten are people actually trying to argue thief ISN'T the highest mobility in the game?

No. Only that it isnt the highest
horizontal
mobility. Doesnt matter outside of WvW, but its a fact.

It's unambiguously the fastest, even without vertical porting short cuts. The level of bias to even think thief is slow compared to warrior and ranger is to a degree of outright derangement.

Its not, and if you played WvW at all you would know that. Thief can escape from everyone (because you can quickly port out of combat and mount up), but a thief will
never
catch a warrior or a ranger in a flat plane in WvW. Because when their dashes can actually go the full distance without such annoying things as inclines shortening their effective mobility, well then ranger and warrior just move more in less time.

Even when you crunch the numbers on the movement skills it doesn't add up.

Warrior movement from skills over one minute; 16,550Soulbeast Movement from skills over one minute: 12,600Daredevil movement from skills over one minute: 19,650

Lets address a few things all at once here. First, movement from skills isnt as important as movement from skills
over time
. Second, there is no way Daredevil got anywhere
close
to 19650. Off of shortbow 5 alone, thats 2 at the start, and one every 6 seconds. So, 12. 10800 from that. Then you add 2 shadowsteps, which is 2400. And then ... youre running dry. Even if you add perfect about face roll for initiative, thats 1800 +1160. Even using both of those (which no one does anymore) youre 3000 short. On the other hand, you
severely
underestimated Rangers movement. Just from Swoop + Gazelles charge + bird swoop alone, Ranger gets 1200 every 12 seconds, and then 1200 every 9 seconds (you alternate the 2). In a minute, that amounts to 6 swoops and 7 pets charges. Thats 15600, not 12600. And if we maximise movement like you did with thief, we get to add monarchs leap and lightning Zephyr.

But we dont need to. See more important than just the raw values, is how much time it took to travel that. And thats where Ranger pulls ahead. Infiltrators arrow takes 1 second to travel, for 900 units. Swoop and the pet dashes take 1 second to travel for
1200
range. Every time ranger moves 33% more during that bit. And well, I think you can see how they pull ahead now.

I was able to do a variation Foefire lap test in 48 seconds with Daredevil+Shadow Arts+Shadow Step+Roll For Initiative. Warrior I got it down to 57 seconds, and that was taking Greatsword, Warrior's Sprint, Bulls Charge in addition to using plus using Sword Balanced Stance and Featherfoot Grace for even more movement speed. And the terrain doesn't especially favor thief. Soulbeast I got down to 55 seconds and that's with Sword+Warhorn+Greatsword+Deer Charge and enough nonmeta utilities to give 100% Swiftness uptime. If you aren't careful inclines will screw over your Infiltator's Arrows. And as long as your latency is fine slopes and inclines don't hamper dashing movement, it's actually pretty fair to do a lap around Foefire for testing purposes.

Yeah turns out if you use a vertical map the class that has a vertical advantage has ... an advantage. No duh. The terrain heavily favours thief. Inclines of any kind reduce the effectiveness of a dash. They do not reduce the effectiveness of infiltrators arrow. We saw this beautifully illustrated in Trevors shoddy attempt, where multiple dashes moved half the distance or less thanks to an incline. What fair is a perfectly flat stretch the likes of which you only find in WvW. So try it out in WvW.

Daredevil dodge dash is a 450 movement skill, not even counting permanent swiftness it provides.

I figured youd do that, but here is the issue. If you include the enhanced dodges, I include the regular dodges. That only closes the gap by 150 each time. Thats a total of, what, 1350? Youre still a few thousand behind, even
before
the time factor comes in.

Trevor's dashes failed not because of inclines, but because of clear latency issues causing that sort of positioning lag most prominent using physical movement skills. My attempts had 0 issue with any dash type skill not fully providing it's entire movement with 50ms.

No, its because inclines mess with dashes. What latency might have explained is the time he got completely stuck, but that wasnt an incline.

I genuinely do not know what you are talking about with "inclines mess with dashes". You use a 1200 unit dash skill you go 1200 units. I only notice skills acting peculiarly when latency becomes an issue at which point movement skills sometimes fail regardless of the shape of terrain.

To give an example, I went to Lions Arch. You know the central glass thing next to the bank? Take the ramp towards the bank. If I use infiltrators arrow down at max range (900) and use double heartseeker back up (900), I end up at least 50 units short of where I started. And every time, too. Thats what it means.

Also I tested this on my mesmer with Blink and my warrior with Rush. Both "1200 range" skills.

HqnOjpg.jpgNsTYrfu.jpgv1fYbV5.jpgmNdDNmY.jpg

The warrior doesn't travel as far because part of Rush's range is included in the attack, while Blink is just a ground targeted directional ability, so it's "range" is 100% accurate in regards to distance traveled. The loss on account of attack range is doubly pronounced using Heart Seeker because you're accounting the attack range twice.

Basically the type of shit you see "Fixed a tool tip" for.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Holy kitten are people actually trying to argue thief ISN'T the highest mobility in the game?

No. Only that it isnt the highest
horizontal
mobility. Doesnt matter outside of WvW, but its a fact.

It's unambiguously the fastest, even without vertical porting short cuts. The level of bias to even think thief is slow compared to warrior and ranger is to a degree of outright derangement.

Its not, and if you played WvW at all you would know that. Thief can escape from everyone (because you can quickly port out of combat and mount up), but a thief will
never
catch a warrior or a ranger in a flat plane in WvW. Because when their dashes can actually go the full distance without such annoying things as inclines shortening their effective mobility, well then ranger and warrior just move more in less time.

Even when you crunch the numbers on the movement skills it doesn't add up.

Warrior movement from skills over one minute; 16,550Soulbeast Movement from skills over one minute: 12,600Daredevil movement from skills over one minute: 19,650

Lets address a few things all at once here. First, movement from skills isnt as important as movement from skills
over time
. Second, there is no way Daredevil got anywhere
close
to 19650. Off of shortbow 5 alone, thats 2 at the start, and one every 6 seconds. So, 12. 10800 from that. Then you add 2 shadowsteps, which is 2400. And then ... youre running dry. Even if you add perfect about face roll for initiative, thats 1800 +1160. Even using both of those (which no one does anymore) youre 3000 short. On the other hand, you
severely
underestimated Rangers movement. Just from Swoop + Gazelles charge + bird swoop alone, Ranger gets 1200 every 12 seconds, and then 1200 every 9 seconds (you alternate the 2). In a minute, that amounts to 6 swoops and 7 pets charges. Thats 15600, not 12600. And if we maximise movement like you did with thief, we get to add monarchs leap and lightning Zephyr.

But we dont need to. See more important than just the raw values, is how much time it took to travel that. And thats where Ranger pulls ahead. Infiltrators arrow takes 1 second to travel, for 900 units. Swoop and the pet dashes take 1 second to travel for
1200
range. Every time ranger moves 33% more during that bit. And well, I think you can see how they pull ahead now.

I was able to do a variation Foefire lap test in 48 seconds with Daredevil+Shadow Arts+Shadow Step+Roll For Initiative. Warrior I got it down to 57 seconds, and that was taking Greatsword, Warrior's Sprint, Bulls Charge in addition to using plus using Sword Balanced Stance and Featherfoot Grace for even more movement speed. And the terrain doesn't especially favor thief. Soulbeast I got down to 55 seconds and that's with Sword+Warhorn+Greatsword+Deer Charge and enough nonmeta utilities to give 100% Swiftness uptime. If you aren't careful inclines will screw over your Infiltator's Arrows. And as long as your latency is fine slopes and inclines don't hamper dashing movement, it's actually pretty fair to do a lap around Foefire for testing purposes.

Yeah turns out if you use a vertical map the class that has a vertical advantage has ... an advantage. No duh. The terrain heavily favours thief. Inclines of any kind reduce the effectiveness of a dash. They do not reduce the effectiveness of infiltrators arrow. We saw this beautifully illustrated in Trevors shoddy attempt, where multiple dashes moved half the distance or less thanks to an incline. What fair is a perfectly flat stretch the likes of which you only find in WvW. So try it out in WvW.

Daredevil dodge dash is a 450 movement skill, not even counting permanent swiftness it provides.

I figured youd do that, but here is the issue. If you include the enhanced dodges, I include the regular dodges. That only closes the gap by 150 each time. Thats a total of, what, 1350? Youre still a few thousand behind, even
before
the time factor comes in.

Trevor's dashes failed not because of inclines, but because of clear latency issues causing that sort of positioning lag most prominent using physical movement skills. My attempts had 0 issue with any dash type skill not fully providing it's entire movement with 50ms.

No, its because inclines mess with dashes. What latency might have explained is the time he got completely stuck, but that wasnt an incline.

I genuinely do not know what you are talking about with "inclines mess with dashes". You use a 1200 unit dash skill you go 1200 units. I only notice skills acting peculiarly when latency becomes an issue at which point movement skills sometimes fail regardless of the shape of terrain.

To give an example, I went to Lions Arch. You know the central glass thing next to the bank? Take the ramp towards the bank. If I use infiltrators arrow down at max range (900) and use double heartseeker back up (900), I end up at least 50 units short of where I started. And every time, too. Thats what it means.

You mean like this?

Seems like this is unique to heartseeker. Even on flat terrain 2x Heartseekers doesn't cover the same distance as 1x Infiltrator's Arrow. Or rather, the strike distance is including on the listed "range" of the skill, which is a bit farther than the movement the skill actually provides to the player.

Thats odd, because I also made a taste on flat ground to compare, and in Lions arch it covered the same distance perfectly. It might be something about that part of Divinities reach then? Though for the record, I also did the same test with Blink and Mirage Thrust, and it also fell short.

I actually tried Mirage Thrust in this location and 2x Mirage Thrust actually travels a bit farther than Blink.

So this seems like something more pronounced and unique with thief and heartseeker than any sort of inclines negatively impacting dashes.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Holy kitten are people actually trying to argue thief ISN'T the highest mobility in the game?

No. Only that it isnt the highest
horizontal
mobility. Doesnt matter outside of WvW, but its a fact.

It's unambiguously the fastest, even without vertical porting short cuts. The level of bias to even think thief is slow compared to warrior and ranger is to a degree of outright derangement.

Its not, and if you played WvW at all you would know that. Thief can escape from everyone (because you can quickly port out of combat and mount up), but a thief will
never
catch a warrior or a ranger in a flat plane in WvW. Because when their dashes can actually go the full distance without such annoying things as inclines shortening their effective mobility, well then ranger and warrior just move more in less time.

Even when you crunch the numbers on the movement skills it doesn't add up.

Warrior movement from skills over one minute; 16,550Soulbeast Movement from skills over one minute: 12,600Daredevil movement from skills over one minute: 19,650

Lets address a few things all at once here. First, movement from skills isnt as important as movement from skills
over time
. Second, there is no way Daredevil got anywhere
close
to 19650. Off of shortbow 5 alone, thats 2 at the start, and one every 6 seconds. So, 12. 10800 from that. Then you add 2 shadowsteps, which is 2400. And then ... youre running dry. Even if you add perfect about face roll for initiative, thats 1800 +1160. Even using both of those (which no one does anymore) youre 3000 short. On the other hand, you
severely
underestimated Rangers movement. Just from Swoop + Gazelles charge + bird swoop alone, Ranger gets 1200 every 12 seconds, and then 1200 every 9 seconds (you alternate the 2). In a minute, that amounts to 6 swoops and 7 pets charges. Thats 15600, not 12600. And if we maximise movement like you did with thief, we get to add monarchs leap and lightning Zephyr.

But we dont need to. See more important than just the raw values, is how much time it took to travel that. And thats where Ranger pulls ahead. Infiltrators arrow takes 1 second to travel, for 900 units. Swoop and the pet dashes take 1 second to travel for
1200
range. Every time ranger moves 33% more during that bit. And well, I think you can see how they pull ahead now.

I was able to do a variation Foefire lap test in 48 seconds with Daredevil+Shadow Arts+Shadow Step+Roll For Initiative. Warrior I got it down to 57 seconds, and that was taking Greatsword, Warrior's Sprint, Bulls Charge in addition to using plus using Sword Balanced Stance and Featherfoot Grace for even more movement speed. And the terrain doesn't especially favor thief. Soulbeast I got down to 55 seconds and that's with Sword+Warhorn+Greatsword+Deer Charge and enough nonmeta utilities to give 100% Swiftness uptime. If you aren't careful inclines will screw over your Infiltator's Arrows. And as long as your latency is fine slopes and inclines don't hamper dashing movement, it's actually pretty fair to do a lap around Foefire for testing purposes.

Yeah turns out if you use a vertical map the class that has a vertical advantage has ... an advantage. No duh. The terrain heavily favours thief. Inclines of any kind reduce the effectiveness of a dash. They do not reduce the effectiveness of infiltrators arrow. We saw this beautifully illustrated in Trevors shoddy attempt, where multiple dashes moved half the distance or less thanks to an incline. What fair is a perfectly flat stretch the likes of which you only find in WvW. So try it out in WvW.

Daredevil dodge dash is a 450 movement skill, not even counting permanent swiftness it provides.

I figured youd do that, but here is the issue. If you include the enhanced dodges, I include the regular dodges. That only closes the gap by 150 each time. Thats a total of, what, 1350? Youre still a few thousand behind, even
before
the time factor comes in.

Trevor's dashes failed not because of inclines, but because of clear latency issues causing that sort of positioning lag most prominent using physical movement skills. My attempts had 0 issue with any dash type skill not fully providing it's entire movement with 50ms.

No, its because inclines mess with dashes. What latency might have explained is the time he got completely stuck, but that wasnt an incline.

I genuinely do not know what you are talking about with "inclines mess with dashes". You use a 1200 unit dash skill you go 1200 units. I only notice skills acting peculiarly when latency becomes an issue at which point movement skills sometimes fail regardless of the shape of terrain.

To give an example, I went to Lions Arch. You know the central glass thing next to the bank? Take the ramp towards the bank. If I use infiltrators arrow down at max range (900) and use double heartseeker back up (900), I end up at least 50 units short of where I started. And every time, too. Thats what it means.

Also I tested this on my mesmer with Blink and my warrior with Rush. Both "1200 range" skills.

HqnOjpg.jpgNsTYrfu.jpgv1fYbV5.jpgmNdDNmY.jpg

The warrior doesn't travel as far because part of Rush's range is included in the attack, while Blink is just a ground targeted directional ability, so it's "range" is 100% accurate in regards to distance traveled. The loss on account of attack range is doubly pronounced using Heart Seeker because you're accounting the attack range twice.

Basically the type of kitten you see "Fixed a tool tip" for.

Again, that doesnt explain why, when I tried that in Lions Arch, it did actually move exactly 900 units on flat ground.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Holy kitten are people actually trying to argue thief ISN'T the highest mobility in the game?

No. Only that it isnt the highest
horizontal
mobility. Doesnt matter outside of WvW, but its a fact.

It's unambiguously the fastest, even without vertical porting short cuts. The level of bias to even think thief is slow compared to warrior and ranger is to a degree of outright derangement.

Its not, and if you played WvW at all you would know that. Thief can escape from everyone (because you can quickly port out of combat and mount up), but a thief will
never
catch a warrior or a ranger in a flat plane in WvW. Because when their dashes can actually go the full distance without such annoying things as inclines shortening their effective mobility, well then ranger and warrior just move more in less time.

Even when you crunch the numbers on the movement skills it doesn't add up.

Warrior movement from skills over one minute; 16,550Soulbeast Movement from skills over one minute: 12,600Daredevil movement from skills over one minute: 19,650

Lets address a few things all at once here. First, movement from skills isnt as important as movement from skills
over time
. Second, there is no way Daredevil got anywhere
close
to 19650. Off of shortbow 5 alone, thats 2 at the start, and one every 6 seconds. So, 12. 10800 from that. Then you add 2 shadowsteps, which is 2400. And then ... youre running dry. Even if you add perfect about face roll for initiative, thats 1800 +1160. Even using both of those (which no one does anymore) youre 3000 short. On the other hand, you
severely
underestimated Rangers movement. Just from Swoop + Gazelles charge + bird swoop alone, Ranger gets 1200 every 12 seconds, and then 1200 every 9 seconds (you alternate the 2). In a minute, that amounts to 6 swoops and 7 pets charges. Thats 15600, not 12600. And if we maximise movement like you did with thief, we get to add monarchs leap and lightning Zephyr.

But we dont need to. See more important than just the raw values, is how much time it took to travel that. And thats where Ranger pulls ahead. Infiltrators arrow takes 1 second to travel, for 900 units. Swoop and the pet dashes take 1 second to travel for
1200
range. Every time ranger moves 33% more during that bit. And well, I think you can see how they pull ahead now.

I was able to do a variation Foefire lap test in 48 seconds with Daredevil+Shadow Arts+Shadow Step+Roll For Initiative. Warrior I got it down to 57 seconds, and that was taking Greatsword, Warrior's Sprint, Bulls Charge in addition to using plus using Sword Balanced Stance and Featherfoot Grace for even more movement speed. And the terrain doesn't especially favor thief. Soulbeast I got down to 55 seconds and that's with Sword+Warhorn+Greatsword+Deer Charge and enough nonmeta utilities to give 100% Swiftness uptime. If you aren't careful inclines will screw over your Infiltator's Arrows. And as long as your latency is fine slopes and inclines don't hamper dashing movement, it's actually pretty fair to do a lap around Foefire for testing purposes.

Yeah turns out if you use a vertical map the class that has a vertical advantage has ... an advantage. No duh. The terrain heavily favours thief. Inclines of any kind reduce the effectiveness of a dash. They do not reduce the effectiveness of infiltrators arrow. We saw this beautifully illustrated in Trevors shoddy attempt, where multiple dashes moved half the distance or less thanks to an incline. What fair is a perfectly flat stretch the likes of which you only find in WvW. So try it out in WvW.

Daredevil dodge dash is a 450 movement skill, not even counting permanent swiftness it provides.

I figured youd do that, but here is the issue. If you include the enhanced dodges, I include the regular dodges. That only closes the gap by 150 each time. Thats a total of, what, 1350? Youre still a few thousand behind, even
before
the time factor comes in.

Trevor's dashes failed not because of inclines, but because of clear latency issues causing that sort of positioning lag most prominent using physical movement skills. My attempts had 0 issue with any dash type skill not fully providing it's entire movement with 50ms.

No, its because inclines mess with dashes. What latency might have explained is the time he got completely stuck, but that wasnt an incline.

I genuinely do not know what you are talking about with "inclines mess with dashes". You use a 1200 unit dash skill you go 1200 units. I only notice skills acting peculiarly when latency becomes an issue at which point movement skills sometimes fail regardless of the shape of terrain.

To give an example, I went to Lions Arch. You know the central glass thing next to the bank? Take the ramp towards the bank. If I use infiltrators arrow down at max range (900) and use double heartseeker back up (900), I end up at least 50 units short of where I started. And every time, too. Thats what it means.

You mean like this?

Seems like this is unique to heartseeker. Even on flat terrain 2x Heartseekers doesn't cover the same distance as 1x Infiltrator's Arrow. Or rather, the strike distance is including on the listed "range" of the skill, which is a bit farther than the movement the skill actually provides to the player.

Thats odd, because I also made a taste on flat ground to compare, and in Lions arch it covered the same distance perfectly. It might be something about that part of Divinities reach then? Though for the record, I also did the same test with Blink and Mirage Thrust, and it also fell short.

I actually tried Mirage Thrust in this location and 2x Mirage Thrust actually travels a bit farther than Blink.

So this seems like something more pronounced and unique with thief and heartseeker than any sort of inclines negatively impacting dashes.

Im thinking its more that spot being wonky. But Id have to look into it more.

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The irony of this post that I'd like everybody to look at is that thief is acknowledged only for it's speed nowadays. The damage is so bad that it is made "feasible" only because thief has --possibly-- the best speed in the game as is being debated right now. However, what is all the speed in the world if you go into even a +1 and do the damage of a wet noodle?

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@"darren.1064" said:The irony of this post that I'd like everybody to look at is that thief is acknowledged only for it's speed nowadays. The damage is so bad that it is made "feasible" only because thief has --possibly-- the best speed in the game as is being debated right now. However, what is all the speed in the world if you go into even a +1 and do the damage of a wet noodle?

The debate about thief mobility is kind of pointless. In the context of conquest, the meta thief build is the most mobile build there is period.

And having this mobility is the reason of it not having anything else. The +1-s and decaps already make the class mandatory in any organised team. It can only fill one predetermined role, but it's very good at it. So thief is anything but dead, you just don't get to actually fight with it. If fighting is your thing, you have 8 other classes to chose from. As a thief you play catch and bully people.

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@Bazsi.2734 said:

@"darren.1064" said:The irony of this post that I'd like everybody to look at is that thief is acknowledged only for it's speed nowadays. The damage is so bad that it is made "feasible" only because thief has --possibly-- the best speed in the game as is being debated right now. However, what is all the speed in the world if you go into even a +1 and do the damage of a wet noodle?

The debate about thief mobility is kind of pointless. In the context of conquest, the meta thief build is the most mobile build there is period.

And having this mobility is the reason of it not having anything else. The +1-s and decaps already make the class mandatory in any organised team. It can only fill one predetermined role, but it's very good at it. So thief is anything but dead, you just don't get to actually fight with it. If fighting is your thing, you have 8 other classes to chose from. As a thief you play catch and bully people.

Basically, yeah. Which does however mean that new elite specs have a major hurdle to jump through, and pretty damn limited design. Even ignoring Deadeyes flaws (of which it has many), the fact that its designed to be used for prolonged fighting meant it never had a chance in sPvP.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Wow weird arguement. Thief is faster than ranger on any plane. Ranger does have great mobility, as it should but it doesn't match thief's which it shouldn't for a variety of reasons which should be obvious to most players.Sure wars and rangers can keep up to thief for a distance but thief would pull a head over time 100%. Rogue like are usually the highest mobility archetype in mmo's and gw2 is no different.

You know this test was already done at launch right? over long distances warrior is faster then thief then ranger. over short distances ie the spvp maps thief is faster. properly use your abilities and you will probably see the same results. What People fail to understand is both warriors and rangers have defensives ontop of there mobility while thief does not. making there bullshit mobility arguement useless. which is what there really debating.

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@"darren.1064" said:The irony of this post that I'd like everybody to look at is that thief is acknowledged only for it's speed nowadays. The damage is so bad that it is made "feasible" only because thief has --possibly-- the best speed in the game as is being debated right now. However, what is all the speed in the world if you go into even a +1 and do the damage of a wet noodle?

It's not really a debate.

There is literally just one guy in the entire community base who believes warriors & rangers can outrun a thief, despite everyone else making videos for him and explaining to him why it isn't true.

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War and rang definitely can keep up to teef over a short distance but as the chase goes on thief will definitely pull a head, except DE, rang and war may beat out a DE but definitely not core or DD. Rang specifically doesn't need to keep up to a thief, just needs to stay in lb range lol course once uve swapt to lb ur mobility isnt great. Both warrior and ranger have great mobility considering their kits but definitely not in par with teef nor should they be. Is this discussion really worth the pages? Lol

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In the context of conquest, the meta thief build is the most mobile build there is period.Not only in this context. ANet should allow build changes in PvP for one week. The roamers in WvW are used to it, but the PvP folks should see this too:

Dash speed rune daredevil can reset any fight within seconds, change its build template, continue the fight, reset, change its build, continue the fight ... I've fought daredevils that changed their build 3 or more times in one single fight. That was incredible. I mean you need a bit of skill to do this as it requires some good timing, but it simply shouldn't be possible at all.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"darren.1064" said:The irony of this post that I'd like everybody to look at is that thief is acknowledged only for it's speed nowadays. The damage is so bad that it is made "feasible" only because thief has --possibly-- the best speed in the game as is being debated right now. However, what is all the speed in the world if you go into even a +1 and do the damage of a wet noodle?

It's not really a debate.

Correct, because this is an old well known fact in WvW.

There is literally just one guy in the entire community base who believes warriors & rangers can outrun a thief, despite everyone else making videos for him and explaining to him why it isn't true.

This however is wrong. Ask any avid WvW player and they tell you the same thing. You also didnt explain to my why it isnt true (on the other hand I did explain to you why it is true), and the only video made was by you, with methodology so unbelievably shoddy that I was able to save 10 seconds without even trying much, and a gap that was pretty close despite a vertical map. Now if Im not mistaken, I believe you found a flat stretch in PvE that you wanted to test it on. Yet we have not seen the result. Care to explain why?

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"darren.1064" said:The irony of this post that I'd like everybody to look at is that thief is acknowledged only for it's speed nowadays. The damage is so bad that it is made "feasible" only because thief has --possibly-- the best speed in the game as is being debated right now. However, what is all the speed in the world if you go into even a +1 and do the damage of a wet noodle?

It's not really a debate.

Correct, because this is an old well known fact in WvW.

There is literally just one guy in the entire community base who believes warriors & rangers can outrun a thief, despite everyone else making videos for him and explaining to him why it isn't true.

This however is wrong. Ask any avid WvW player and they tell you the same thing. You also didnt explain to my why it isnt true (on the other hand I
did
explain to you why it
is
true), and the only video made was by you, with methodology so unbelievably shoddy that I was able to save 10 seconds without even trying much, and a gap that was pretty close despite a vertical map. Now if Im not mistaken, I believe you found a flat stretch in PvE that you wanted to test it on. Yet we have not seen the result. Care to explain why?

Nope sorry , he explained to you with videos and words , that's he is rightAs i said , i willing to buy 2 accounts and put you in low pop WvWvW server to prove him wrong in a race , but you alway back away , finding an excuseYou could in reallity show him , how to '' save 10 seconds without even trying much''

All talk , no action:)

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/IpNgah-e6v4/hqdefault.jpg

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@Naqam a.6521 said:

@"darren.1064" said:The irony of this post that I'd like everybody to look at is that thief is acknowledged only for it's speed nowadays. The damage is so bad that it is made "feasible" only because thief has --possibly-- the best speed in the game as is being debated right now. However, what is all the speed in the world if you go into even a +1 and do the damage of a wet noodle?

It's not really a debate.

Correct, because this is an old well known fact in WvW.

There is literally just one guy in the entire community base who believes warriors & rangers can outrun a thief, despite everyone else making videos for him and explaining to him why it isn't true.

This however is wrong. Ask any avid WvW player and they tell you the same thing. You also didnt explain to my why it isnt true (on the other hand I
did
explain to you why it
is
true), and the only video made was by you, with methodology so unbelievably shoddy that I was able to save 10 seconds without even trying much, and a gap that was pretty close despite a vertical map. Now if Im not mistaken, I believe you found a flat stretch in PvE that you wanted to test it on. Yet we have not seen the result. Care to explain why?

Nope sorry , he explained to you with videos and words , that's he is rightAs i said , i willing to buy 2 accounts and put you in low pop WvWvW server to prove him wrong in a race , but you alway back away , finding an excuse

I figured after everyone told you youre wrong, you wouldve given up on trolling, but damn. He didnt explain anything other than the very first time. Which was with a lot of errors that I fixed, and once I fixed them, turns out his math proved that Ranger and Warrior were faster. He never answered afterwards. And the one video he provided is of course shoddy and also worthless. And buying accounts is against the ToS. Im not gonna get banned because some troll thinks its an argument.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"darren.1064" said:The irony of this post that I'd like everybody to look at is that thief is acknowledged only for it's speed nowadays. The damage is so bad that it is made "feasible" only because thief has --possibly-- the best speed in the game as is being debated right now. However, what is all the speed in the world if you go into even a +1 and do the damage of a wet noodle?

It's not really a debate.

Correct, because this is an old well known fact in WvW.

There is literally just one guy in the entire community base who believes warriors & rangers can outrun a thief, despite everyone else making videos for him and explaining to him why it isn't true.

This however is wrong. Ask any avid WvW player and they tell you the same thing. You also didnt explain to my why it isnt true (on the other hand I
did
explain to you why it
is
true), and the only video made was by you, with methodology so unbelievably shoddy that I was able to save 10 seconds without even trying much, and a gap that was pretty close despite a vertical map. Now if Im not mistaken, I believe you found a flat stretch in PvE that you wanted to test it on. Yet we have not seen the result. Care to explain why?

Nope sorry , he explained to you with videos and words , that's he is rightAs i said , i willing to buy 2 accounts and put you in low pop WvWvW server to prove him wrong in a race , but you alway back away , finding an excuse

I figured after everyone told you youre wrong, you wouldve given up on trolling, but kitten. He didnt explain anything other than the very first time. Which was with a lot of errors that I fixed, and once I fixed them, turns out his math proved that Ranger and Warrior were faster. He never answered afterwards. And the one video he provided is of course shoddy and also worthless. And buying accounts is against the ToS. Im not gonna get banned because some troll thinks its an argument.

Show in action how to save 10 secHave a duel

If you win , i will give you the account for free :)

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