New Expansion worries

[uberkingkong.8041]

So a new expansion is coming out, very exciting times.Just want to remind people this is an MMORPG and new expansions AFTER time not so exciting anymore with the changes that come with it.

PvP use to be a very balanced mode, but now due to more people doing something they not suppose to do, they do more damage now as well, etc.Some classes don't get the luxury, like Warriors.

I noticed now they have a lot of remove immobilization, which is the HARD counter to playing against a Warrior in PvP. Now they just remove it like nothing. But this did not fix them, just because they can remove it with ease now, they never got the dps they did before back. So they free to do whatever but... They pose no threat because the BUFFS every other profession got was wayy better than "Warriors can get out of immobilization with ease"

..I come back and see this and makes me laugh, yet think GW2 is following the same 'new expansion' bane all MMORPGs have no yet figured out.Everybody is going to do whatever another person can do eventually.Who knows, theres could be a stealthy warrior, every profession could have access to stealth.Another profession can do portals, maybe a time-traveler elementalist.

Sounds cool right?In the long ruin it ruins the vibe of the game.Short term gains for long term pain.Thats my worry.

Please make profession in line with what its suppose to do. Only few were suppose to be able to stealth. Only few were suppose to be good at healing, etc etc.I don't want"I really played guardian because I like to play as healer, but this new expansion this guardian spec is really good at dps, now everyone wants me to play dps, not fun anymore""I really played thief because I want to sneak through certain parts on dungeons, but now everyone can stealth, not fun anymore, and they made me a healer, I did not play to heal""I did not play thief to be a monk aka healer, I played thief to sneak through dungeons, I wish I was an elementalist time traveler, they do sneaks and portals""I really played warrior because I like to tank, smash and in melee, now I'm turned into a breakbar person, not fun anymore""I really played engineer because I have so many immobilization, knockdowns, CC, but now as holosmith it feels like core warrior, I did not play engineer to feel like a core warrior, I'm upset I get out CC'ed by warriors, my class was suppose to be the class that does CC, not fun anymore"

If everyone is going to do what everyone else use to ONLY be able to do.Mine as well just merge all the professions, and let people freely swap to whatever they want.Because if you played Engineer when GW2 came out because it was full of CC, now its warrior. Makes no sense that your playstyle is now all sudden another profession.

Please please, keep profession specific stuff, profession specific.

[zealex.9410]

Imbalamce will always exist and i dont think we should abolish expansions because of it.

[uberkingkong.8041]

@"zealex.9410" said:Imbalamce will always exist and i dont think we should abolish expansions because of it.

Game was pretty balanced with core.Just a lot of times, people picked professions that easy counter to others.Warriors were very deadly back then... But all you had to do was immobilze. An engineer back then was an easy counter to warrior, but not many people played engineer.They used to have an automated response trait, under 25 or 50% condis do 0 damage, and if you CC people that do normal damage you was very tough to kill. Guardians countered them. Warriors can't do anything when CC'ed. But all sudden engineers turn into DPS and Warriors turn into CC. More CC then Scapper. Scapper didn't do squat for dps. Just a slow painful death if you do die.

Today though, they make random elite specs with no balance in mind. Like all sudden we have warriors that are crazy CC. All sudden engineers do insane damage? Roles reversed!?

Everytime a new expansion comes out, and strong urge "we should give this profession a stealth" "we should give this profession a lot of CC" "we should give this profession a lot of heals" When they weren't designed for it. Thats how balance is ruined. You have balance,"Hmmm I'm tired of eating what I eat, I want to eat apple from this tree"

You want more foods to eat? Ok, ok, have fun with balancing the flavor buds."I need something sweet, I need something salty, something spicy, etc etc."

Perfect balance then introduce humans, lets give them knowledge so they can be stealthy when stealth is needed, be strong when strength is needed, be cureful when healing is need"... All sudden humans break the balance and pretty much someday we probably be the only ones here on Earth.

[Sigmoid.7082]

This type of things has always been a part of the franchise. Elite specs are just a different flavour of the dual class system from the original game.

The game isn't suddenly unbalanced because classes and specs don't play to whatever stereotypes and preconceived notions you personally have about them.

Also your whole monologue of "I didn't want to do this" completely ignores the fact that all the other specs for a class will still exist. "But I'm not getting anything new". You are, you just don't like it but alas the game isn't designed around your personal tastes and specifications.

[Trise.2865]

Equal does not mean identical. Professions can already do what the others do.

Similarly, nobody is "forced" into doing anything. Fixation on min-maxing over play style that does that, and even that doesn't take away what is already there. Play your sneaky Stealth Thief when the meta says "Thieves heal". Play your smashy Warrior when the meta says "Banner B***!". Play the game; stop letting the game play you.

[Goettel.4389]

Don't worry be happy

[Teratus.2859]

It's extremely unlikely every class will get access to Stealth and even if they did it would never get to the level of access and abuse that the Thief can reach.

As far as healing goes this game killed off the concept of a holy trinity so if anything having every class be somewhat competent in playing a support/healing role wouldn't be a bad thing.Getting rid of the holy trinity meant that each class should have been somewhat capable of filling each of the 3 roles right from the beginning but this was never the case.Having Elite specs designed to fill those voids and cover for areas of a class where the core profession is lacking is what elite specs should be doing.For example, Thief is lacking a bit in DPS so an elite spec that enhances DPS potential at the expense of another core mechanic like say Stealth or Mobility would be a fair Elite Spec to consider adding... This was pretty much the general idea behind the Reaper spec for Necromancer, big damage at the expense of core Necros natural tankiness but it ended up not being quite as pro damage in the end and Necro's still remained really tanky even as Reapers.. which kinda leaves Reaper in a state of being a general upgrade over the core class in almost every way.Stuff like that is why Anet went back and reworked a few specs to have trade offs like Mirage loosing a dodge etc, if anything there needs to be more of these trade offs with the next gen of elite specs.

Also just because your class is capable of healing doesn't mean you're forced to play that role, I main a Ranger myself but I don't play healing druid and no amount of nagging me to is going to change that either nor is it going to make me competent at it.If you try to force me to play druid then I guarantee you're all gonna die lmao, you can blame me for that if you want but ultimately it'll be the fault of those who nagged me to use a spec, build and playstyle that I have no experience with nor any interest in playing.You can't just push me into a hospital, give me a bunch of surgical tools and say heal this man and then get mad at me when I accidentally kill the guy.. that would be in every way your fault not mine XD

As for PvP modes.. I have to disagree, they've never really been well balanced from my experience.Before Elite specs came along I was running such a stupidly tanky Necro build there that despite being a total PvP noob I was easily winning fights against 2-3 players on my own.. it was so broken and it had nothing to do with my non-existent pvp skill.Game has changed a lot since then and there are always going to be changes that make or break certain builds.. things are always being changed and it's impossible to achieve a perfect balance in MMO's.. specially ones like Gw2 that are ongoing and where more class enhancements are pretty much guaranteed.Much like zealex.9410 was getting at.. the only way to help prevent this would be to never release new elite specs or expansions and even that wouldn't guarantee balance either.. and it would be a terrible thing for the game that would result in a lot of people getting bored and quitting.

You also do have to keep in mind just how much of a Story driven PvE focused game Gw2 is.. as much as it sucks to hear for some people, WvW and PvP are not and never have nor will be the main focus of this game and franchise.. they'll always be a secondary feature.That said though I do generally agree that they have been over neglected and I do think they deserve more TLC from the developers.

[uberkingkong.8041]

@Teratus.2859 said:It's extremely unlikely every class will get access to Stealth and even if they did it would never get to the level of access and abuse that the Thief can reach.

As far as healing goes this game killed off the concept of a holy trinity so if anything having every class be somewhat competent in playing a support/healing role wouldn't be a bad thing.Getting rid of the holy trinity meant that each class should have been somewhat capable of filling each of the 3 roles right from the beginning but this was never the case.Having Elite specs designed to fill those voids and cover for areas of a class where the core profession is lacking is what elite specs should be doing.For example, Thief is lacking a bit in DPS so an elite spec that enhances DPS potential at the expense of another core mechanic like say Stealth or Mobility would be a fair Elite Spec to consider adding... This was pretty much the general idea behind the Reaper spec for Necromancer, big damage at the expense of core Necros natural tankiness but it ended up not being quite as pro damage in the end and Necro's still remained really tanky even as Reapers.. which kinda leaves Reaper in a state of being a general upgrade over the core class in almost every way.Stuff like that is why Anet went back and reworked a few specs to have trade offs like Mirage loosing a dodge etc, if anything there needs to be more of these trade offs with the next gen of elite specs.

Also just because your class is capable of healing doesn't mean you're forced to play that role, I main a Ranger myself but I don't play healing druid and no amount of nagging me to is going to change that either nor is it going to make me competent at it.If you try to force me to play druid then I guarantee you're all gonna die lmao, you can blame me for that if you want but ultimately it'll be the fault of those who nagged me to use a spec, build and playstyle that I have no experience with nor any interest in playing.You can't just push me into a hospital, give me a bunch of surgical tools and say heal this man and then get mad at me when I accidentally kill the guy.. that would be in every way your fault not mine XD

As for PvP modes.. I have to disagree, they've never really been well balanced from my experience.Before Elite specs came along I was running such a stupidly tanky Necro build there that despite being a total PvP noob I was easily winning fights against 2-3 players on my own.. it was so broken and it had nothing to do with my non-existent pvp skill.Game has changed a lot since then and there are always going to be changes that make or break certain builds.. things are always being changed and it's impossible to achieve a perfect balance in MMO's.. specially ones like Gw2 that are ongoing and where more class enhancements are pretty much guaranteed.Much like zealex.9410 was getting at.. the only way to help prevent this would be to never release new elite specs or expansions and even that wouldn't guarantee balance either.. and it would be a terrible thing for the game that would result in a lot of people getting bored and quitting.

You also do have to keep in mind just how much of a Story driven PvE focused game Gw2 is.. as much as it sucks to hear for some people, WvW and PvP are not and never have nor will be the main focus of this game and franchise.. they'll always be a secondary feature.That said though I do generally agree that they have been over neglected and I do think they deserve more TLC from the developers.

Yep makes sense.They may have killen holy trinity, but its replaced with meta instead.Ex. LFG Fractals T4 daily need HBneed chronoYou don't have holy trinity but you have profession specific roles, 2 of them and 3rd being dps, maybe theres more people seek than HB and chronos so maybe 4.trinity better off than 3 to required roles people seek.Sure can be easily said don't join em, but not everybody has list of friends waiting, not everybody has a guild super active that when you want to do fractal they drop what they doing and do it with you...Some people come back to game and 'whats HB? whats chrono? back in my days we just did these fractals, no specific roles required unless its a speedrun.'..But yes, an expansion would be very boring if they did nothing.Looking at Everquest I haven't played in awhile, but all they do for expansions I think is same skills, just better than last expansion. Everquest probably sick of balancing that, just raise the numbers and no very out of the ordinary spells be given to anyone....I mean do we really need even more out of ordinary abilities?When is enough is a enough?.My worry is abilities leaking out of the profession who was designed for it and now everyone all sudden has access and the one who was designed for it, no longer feels special..Everquest ranger and druid, designed to track nameds. Now everyone tracks in Everquest, druid for sure not best healer not best buffer, not best nothing, very lonely times for druid. Used to be get them because they'll tell you if something is up, now everybody does what druid does, but they also do their own roles and better.

Very tough decisions GW2 has to make.Game should be fun, how much should we worry about balance. I mean could make tank thieves, would be fun, but balance wise could be a headache.

[kharmin.7683]

@uberkingkong.8041 said:

back in my days we just did these fractals, no specific roles required unless its a speedrun.'There's nothing stopping you from doing this now. Just create your own group.

[Astralporing.1957]

@uberkingkong.8041 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Imbalamce will always exist and i dont think we should abolish expansions because of it.

Game was pretty balanced with core.You must have played a different game than i did.

[Astyrah.4015]

my new expansion worries are more of Cantha maps being like Elona, nice to look at (like parts of Desert Highlands & Crystal Oasis) and really big but no reason to go back unless it's a daily or you need something there for some collection...

wish they hit the middle ground of replayability (metas&rewards) of HoT and environment+scale of PoF with the EoD Expansion

[maddoctor.2738]

@"uberkingkong.8041" said:PvP use to be a very balanced mode, but now due to more people doing something they not suppose to do, they do more damage now as well, etc.

The game was never "balanced" in PVP

My favorite video about "PVP balance" at release!

[Halbarz.3854]

PvP will never be balanced, this is a continues effort + doesn't help that some people create posts Class X is OP every single day because they died or do not know how to counter it.

My biggest concern about this expansion is the lack of information we got so far, a lot of people are speculating and this leads to hype and hope. While the expansion will be great that I am sure off. a lot of people are overhyping it. Talking about new weapons, specs, classes, races, features, .... Anet would be better off:

• clearly set expectations
• be more active on their own forum as I barely see any responses from their side
• give an update on the roadmap for each game mode

This way even if they do not go into much detail people will know more or less what to expect. Then they can focus and dream about what is really coming.

[Kodama.6453]

I think you are exaggerating this whole thing a bit.

Even if there are meta healers like druid and firebrand, in the groups I am joining, nobody bats an eye if someone is joining as a tempest or scourge if they want to heal.There are meta dps classes, like chrono etc, yet no one ever complained about my dps as a holosmith. The groups I was playing with also never said anything about dps reapers (which are apparently the dps spec with the lowest dps currently).

It was even Anet's goal that everyone will be able to perform every role in the end, btw. Because they had the vision that you shouldn't be locked out of a playstyle just because you prefer a class thematically. The goal is that everyone is able to tank, dps, or heal in the end.Not every class is at that point already, like thief, which are still not able to play the healing support role.

You play thief because you want to deal damage and not be a healer? Then join groups which don't give a flying baby feline if you want to play deadeye or daredevil. There are enough groups which are not that serious about playing the meta and you can also always make your own group which allows players to use classes which are not the very top at the task that is needed.

[Dante.1508]

Trying to balance a core pve game is like trying to grasp the ungraspable..

[Game of Bones.8975]

TL;DR everything, maybe I'm on target or way off base

It's too early to worry about something we know nothing about.

People worried about elite specs, now we rarely use the core professions and we worried that mounts would ruin the game, now ask for more and different abilities.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Game of Bones.8975" said:TL;DR everything, maybe I'm on target or way off base

It's too early to worry about something we know nothing about.

People worried about elite specs, now we rarely use the core professionsWell, the main worry was that the elite specs will be a flat out upgrade and will replace core classes. Which is exactly what happened.

and we worried that mounts would ruin the game, now ask for more and different abilities.While i indeed admit that mounts were done in a much better way than i expected, my main worry with them was that they would be used as an argument to lower the amount of waypoints on new maps. And, surprise surprise, low amount of waypoints is exactly what happened. Yeah, mounts are cool, but i would gladly exchange them for Anet introducing old core waypoint density on post-core maps.(and of course mount skins were one of the milestones on the road that led to the abomination that was the "template" system)

[ASP.8093]

I like the new waypoint density. It makes the maps feel just a little bit more like a real place you need to navigate and not a little themepark. It's still faster to do map completion in PoF / S4 than it is to do core maps with 100 minor POIs and like 12 hearts per map.

[Rex.3602]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Game of Bones.8975" said:TL;DR everything, maybe I'm on target or way off base

It's too early to worry about something we know nothing about.

People worried about elite specs, now we rarely use the core professionsWell, the main worry

was

that the elite specs will be a flat out upgrade and will replace core classes. Which is exactly what happened.

I do feel that the especs have essentially replaced the cores. Based on the professions I have played, I would never choose cores only over especs. I also think that it may have made "balancing" professions and content more difficult since there are many more builds to account for. I personally wouldn't mind even if there were no more specializations introduced ever because there is more than enough variety right now to satisfy me.

and we worried that mounts would ruin the game, now ask for more and different abilities.While i indeed admit that mounts were done in a much better way than i expected, my main worry with them was that they would be used as an argument to lower the amount of waypoints on new maps. And, surprise surprise, low amount of waypoints is exactly what happened. Yeah, mounts are cool, but i would gladly exchange them for Anet introducing old core waypoint density on post-core maps.(and of course mount skins were one of the milestones on the road that led to the abomination that was the "template" system)

Yes, I hope the mounts don't become an excuse to have a low density of waypoints in new content, since there will be people that haven't unlocked the mounts. Ever since mounts were introduced I do find that I use the waypoints less often in the core Tyria and HoT maps because I can just fly over a short distance or use the roller beetle to get to places quickly.

[Game of Bones.8975]

The only good point of having fewer way-points per map and using mounts or WP-to-Friend is the gold saved each time you hop somewhere.

[keenedge.9675]

As they mentioned months ago, 'unity of purpose' has been a derailed concept.

Someone needs to read the DnD build reference guides to relearn this art of crafting a toon that actually fulfills their class title.

[sitarskee.5738]

I don't mind them going kinda off the path of profession when making elite specs because after all I think elite specs are here to bring something new, some freshness to the class. Anything they come up with, we will adapt to.

[Hashberry.4510]

At this point, playing a core spec is fresh, no? I keep a toon with each spec anyway, all are fun to play. Another set of especs will be wonderful, I don’t care one bit about ‘balance’.

[uberkingkong.8041]

Just thinking about DPS Meter.

People hate it because they do bad DPS, usually people do bad DPS because they have to do a long attack chain to be efficient.

Usually when a new expansion comes out, it means more buttons to smash on top of whatever buttons your smashing.Please be mindful, that the intend of this game was originally not to button smash, not to memorize 10-20+ button smashing attack chains to be efficient at dps.

Please don't increase the amount of buttons to be smashed to be efficient at DPS.New expansion = usually more buttons to smash, they think add stuff add more stuff, thats only way to make expansion good

Adding and adding more things to smash and memorize, thats not good,Should be no reason for me to memorize more than 10 attack chains, anything more than 10 attack chains is too long, its not fun anymore.It starts to become macros, and select few can do the optimal dps because its not really SKILL, its MEMORIZATION.

Not being able to effectively do the 10+ attack chains is not SKILL, its MEMORIZATION.Bring this game back to skill, not MEMORIZATION.

Less attack chains to memorize, and more about WHEN to do certain attacks.

I'd like to go back to the core and only have to press under 10 attacks, I don't want to go to 30 attacks and have to remember long attack chains.People who come back, they want to jump back into the game, they DO NOT want to have a wiki up and spend all there time trying to get some 10+ attack chain memorized.

Please do not make me have to memorize 10+ long attack chains.I'm NOT interested in F1 F2 F3 F4 and whole new sets of skills. Which equals to LONG CHAINS to memorize. EQUALS not enjoying game, more worried about am I doing my attack chain, let me enjoy the game, don't overwhelm me with long attack chains.(If I want F1,F2,F3,F4 ill play an elementalist, not everyone needs to be overwhelmed like them btw I hate conjure weapons, TOO many abilities to track)Please do not make me have to memorize 10+ long attack chains.

[Donari.5237]

@"uberkingkong.8041" said:Just thinking about DPS Meter.

People hate it because they do bad DPS, usually people do bad DPS because they have to do a long attack chain to be efficient.

Or they hate it because people they didn't ask for feedback tell them they have "bad DPS" and they suck and should not be allowed to play the game. You sorta left that out of your thread on DPS meters. People that do want to practice long rotations can go to the Aerodrome golems with a coach to help them figure out what to do. Though I have the impression that GW2 isn't about precise rotations so much as adapting to circumstances and knowing when not to fire off a skill that will be needed at a more crucial moment. Also, GW2 is not purely about DPS. There are a lot of support roles that help other players max their DPS. Going to yell at the support crew that they suck for their low DPS while riding along the uplift they give you to let you flex your damage? You've seen a lot of threads about banning meters. Please think about the reasons behind it.

I do agree with you that piling on more and more complexity in the elite specs can get away from the original game design; I certainly love Reaper and barely touch Weaver, thanks to the elegance of Reaper "rotations." Even so, the min-maxers can choose a profession and build that suits their skills if they really need to pump up DPS at the cost of everything else. Some Weavers will be piano geniuses. Why should their spec be neutered to utter simplicity just because it's too much for some players (like me) to keep all the skill combos in mind? As long as some elites are simpler to use so everyone gets a chance at something new in the expansion, I'm fine with some that have huge moment-to-moment options.