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No "kp" for CM fractals. Is that gonna increase toxicity?


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@Kameko.8314 said:I LOVE the no kp. If you have the title you should be fine. In old 100cm anything above 50kp was competent anyway. And if you have new 100cm title it is sufficient. Old cm 100 title was pretty meaningless easily carriable.

LFG's are already full of Title sellers, just like with Raid CM titles, they won't stay relevant for judging player experience for long. Even if that weren't the case, eventually people extremely proficient with the content, having done it hundreds of times, will want a differentiation between people such as themselves and someone having done it possibly only once or twice, getting the title, anyway.

KP wasn't perfect, but it was far better than anything else we had before or since.

Even as a 1000 KP player myself, I generally looked for/made 100-250 KP groups, because I found that to be the sweetspot between incompetent and elitist (aka competent and relaxed) that I personally enjoyed.

A group only gating with a title could mean it will consist out of someone who bought the title, someone who did it twice, someone moderately experienced , someone having done the CM a hundred times wanting a clean but chill run and someone who insists on no heal and speedrun strats and flames everyone for the tiniest mistake, which will obviously lead to problems in the group fairly quickly, making the process of finding the right group needlessly difficult.I don't see how that's a good thing when before each of those players could more accurately define their standards with for ex. Training, any KP, 50-100 KP, 100-250 KP and 800+ KP.

Again, not a perfect system, but better than a title, and I doubt they will stay relevant for long when people come up with something else even clunkier like stacks of Abyssal Infusions or linking the Fractal Weapons.

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@Asum.4960 said:

@"Kameko.8314" said:I LOVE the no kp. If you have the title you should be fine. In old 100cm anything above 50kp was competent anyway. And if you have new 100cm title it is sufficient. Old cm 100 title was pretty meaningless easily carriable.

LFG's are already full of Title sellers, just like with Raid CM titles, they won't stay relevant for judging player experience for long. Even if that weren't the case, eventually people extremely proficient with the content, having done it hundreds of times, will want a differentiation between people such as themselves and someone having done it possibly only once or twice, getting the title, anyway.

KP wasn't perfect, but it was far better than anything else we had before or since.

Even as a 1000 KP player myself, I generally looked for/made 100-250 KP groups, because I found that to be the sweetspot between incompetent and elitist (aka competent and relaxed) that I personally enjoyed.

A group only gating with a title could mean it will consist out of someone who bought the title, someone who did it twice, someone moderately experienced , someone having done the CM a hundred times wanting a clean but chill run and someone who insists on no heal and speedrun strats and flames everyone for the tiniest mistake, which will obviously lead to problems in the group fairly quickly, making the process of finding the right group needlessly difficult.I don't see how that's a good thing when before each of those players could more accurately define their standards with for ex. Training, any KP, 50-100 KP, 100-250 KP and 800+ KP.

Again, not a perfect system, but better than a title, and I doubt they will stay relevant for long when people come up with something else even clunkier like stacks of Abyssal Infusions or linking the Fractal Weapons.

Yah, I pinged 7 infusions each time I go in group plus a stack and its like .. whats the point? You can tell when someone is bad, and if you are in an "experienced" advertised group then you should feel free to kick someone as I do in strikes from time to time because I asked for experience... and you're not it. I dunno, you have a point that it worked to an extent. But then I had the 250 li groups that couldn't even get passed second boss 100cm. Haha. Usually more essence = worse groups (this is ocx so I guess the player base... haha not so good). The thing is thos fractal feels like a strike boss sadly. CM mode? Straight to boss, you're in an arena, and yah.. so if your group is bad, then you know straight away which is good

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@Kameko.8314 said:

@Kameko.8314 said:I LOVE the no kp. If you have the title you should be fine. In old 100cm anything above 50kp was competent anyway. And if you have new 100cm title it is sufficient. Old cm 100 title was pretty meaningless easily carriable.

LFG's are already full of Title sellers, just like with Raid CM titles, they won't stay relevant for judging player experience for long. Even if that weren't the case, eventually people extremely proficient with the content, having done it hundreds of times, will want a differentiation between people such as themselves and someone having done it possibly only once or twice, getting the title, anyway.

KP wasn't perfect, but it was far better than anything else we had before or since.

Even as a 1000 KP player myself, I generally looked for/made 100-250 KP groups, because I found that to be the sweetspot between incompetent and elitist (aka competent and relaxed) that I personally enjoyed.

A group only gating with a title could mean it will consist out of someone who bought the title, someone who did it twice, someone moderately experienced , someone having done the CM a hundred times wanting a clean but chill run and someone who insists on no heal and speedrun strats and flames everyone for the tiniest mistake, which will obviously lead to problems in the group fairly quickly, making the process of finding the right group needlessly difficult.I don't see how that's a good thing when before each of those players could more accurately define their standards with for ex. Training, any KP, 50-100 KP, 100-250 KP and 800+ KP.

Again, not a perfect system, but better than a title, and I doubt they will stay relevant for long when people come up with something else even clunkier like stacks of Abyssal Infusions or linking the Fractal Weapons.

Yah, I pinged 7 infusions each time I go in group plus a stack and its like .. whats the point? You can tell when someone is bad, and if you are in an "experienced" advertised group then you should feel free to kick someone as I do in strikes from time to time because I asked for experience... and you're not it. I dunno, you have a point that it worked to an extent. But then I had the 250 li groups that couldn't even get passed second boss 100cm. Haha. Usually more essence = worse groups (this is ocx so I guess the player base... haha not so good). The thing is thos fractal feels like a strike boss sadly. CM mode? Straight to boss, you're in an arena, and yah.. so if your group is bad, then you know straight away which is good

All of that takes up time if you have to kick someone and find a suitable replacement.

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All of that takes up time if you have to kick someone and find a suitable replacement.

The thing is you the title then. If your title is bought... then replace the bad. Eventually people will have the full weapon set. Titles, ping infusions, there are kp replacements. Its just like anything that just comes out. The top talented probably already run statics. If you straight pug, what better to find than a title holder because they probably didn't buy it.

As time goes on, more and more will know the fight and after that replacements won't be hard. It's like new raid wing? Same thing low kp anyway, the person with 10kp is just as good as the one with 0 at times. Depends. I think they want to kill the "show 250kp" whether it is good or bad of them to do.. we will see.

Personally? I run with friends and groups. If you play an mmo solo . Good luck and you should know the ropes of getting in groups or finding groups. I don't think kp has helped me obtain any status in this game (2500+li / 1k+ fracs / runic armor / wvw armor). And there were few times I had to pug because of the guilds I'm in and it should force people if nothing else to look for friends to make connections. Maybe it will have people expand their networks and friends and not think of it as a trash pit looking for diamond players. Maybe that's their intent? Maybe not. But right now it's just so early, I'm glad they trying something new. Maybe it will shift the dynamic. And if not, they can go back to pingable kp.

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@"Kameko.8314" said:

All of that takes up time if you have to kick someone and find a suitable replacement.

The thing is you the title then. If your title is bought... then replace the bad. Eventually people will have the full weapon set. Titles, ping infusions, there are kp replacements. Its just like anything that just comes out. The top talented probably already run statics. If you straight pug, what better to find than a title holder because they probably didn't buy it.

As time goes on, more and more will know the fight and after that replacements won't be hard. It's like new raid wing? Same thing low kp anyway, the person with 10kp is just as good as the one with 0 at times. Depends. I think they want to kill the "show 250kp" whether it is good or bad of them to do.. we will see.

Personally? I run with friends and groups. If you play an mmo solo . Good luck and you should know the ropes of getting in groups or finding groups. I don't think kp has helped me obtain any status in this game (2500+li / 1k+ fracs / runic armor / wvw armor). And there were few times I had to pug because of the guilds I'm in and it should force people if nothing else to look for friends to make connections. Maybe it will have people expand their networks and friends and not think of it as a trash pit looking for diamond players. Maybe that's their intent? Maybe not. But right now it's just so early, I'm glad they trying something new. Maybe it will shift the dynamic. And if not, they can go back to pingable kp.

Again. Cycling through inexperienced players to find a replacement takes up time.

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@Kameko.8314

Can't say I agree on the more KP = (mechanically) worse players. Ofc sometimes there are exceptions of otherwise experienced players just having a bad day or having been excessively carried, or even more rarely faking it, but in my experience that's less than 1 out of 20 runs. So it was a fairly decent system for player selection.

As for the just kicking bad players argument, as @Ayrilana.1396 mentioned, that just takes a lot of time. Likely starting with the new CM now, that's one continuous ~12m minute fight. If two people die halfway through that fight causing a reset, that could have just been a fluke or messup which while annoying is imo fine - but even if you kick then that's 6 minutes + more time spent in LFG wasted. If you give them another shot and the same thing happens again forming a pattern of low skill, we are already at 12 minutes. At this stage you are then back to LFG at a time when you could already be done with that piece of content, and the same thing could happen again, getting another 2 players who just got the Title by doing it once scraping by with luck, having bought it or having been carried otherwise.

That's why KP was vastly more reliable. A few clicks proving someone having done the content 50+ times is a fairly reliable way of expressing experience, if that is what you are looking for.Not perfect, but better than a once and done title.

And ofc a static is the best way to play group content, but with the vast gaps in hardcore content delivery, those communities, including repeatedly mine, are falling apart one after the other with people quitting or moving on to other games due to getting almost nothing but Living World which isn't what we are here for/enough to keep many of us engaged.New statics that align with your own personality, mechanical expectations/playstyles and time availability don't grow on trees, leading many back into the wild west of pugging, which now lost a valuable tool for group finding.

One idea I had a while ago with Anet introducing the coloured charity title was to give Fractal CM's and Raid Wings a repeatable Title giving Achievement, with the title changing colour at certain thresholds, going from the basic white text from one clear to Orange (Exotic) for 10 clears, Pink (Ascended) for 50 clears and Purple (Legendary) for 100 clears.Skipping Blue, Green and Yellow for HuD clarity purposes since those are colour code for Party Members, NPC's and Guild Members (although different Shades could be used), and keeping the max purposefully low as to not sheer endlessly inflate requirements.

That way there would be an easy at a glance way to differentiate between people of varying experience levels without requiring any Bank/Inventory space, chat codes, 3rd party websites etc.

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It blows my mind that the KP were removed. Now it has become completely impossible to find a group unless you have this new title.

This is the worst decision that Anet has ever made. KP were useful and something to collect and strive towards. I will never understand why they had to be removed! Why couldn't this new fractal simply reward some just like the old Shattered Observatory used to? I'm really disappointed and won't be playing fractals for a while since you already now can't find a pug easily. This will make me fall even further behind as more people get the title.

This decision has trebled toxicity in the game and sucked the fun out of fractals. I was so excited about the new fractal, and I am deeply disappointed in this ridiculous decision.

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@Henry.5713 said:The combination of Fractal God (plus Dances with Demons) will get you into almost any group just like before. We shall have to wait and see how this develops. The community will come up with some new ways of proving your experience soon, I am sure.

Both of these titles don´t say anything about your skill level. You can get Fractal God just by doing T4 and Recs only and you can buy Dances with Demons from the LFG.

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@SeikeNz.3526 said:anet is doing a great job, the next step is banning arcdps

Lol, that will mean the dead of Raids and CM.Most of players that do them are people that love engagment contents that are no brain dead and love progressing in their mastering of their class, no arcdps mean no way to see if you have progressed, no way to find new tractic to do boss (because how the fuck do you see if it's work), so the leading clans and most of the clan leader of raids clan will go aways to other games.

Without speaking of how the lfg will become mess, no li mean beginner can go with anyone even player that just want to clear it rapidly, theses player will make wip the group and their will be no way to know why. It's a coop gamemode, you're supposed to help the team, not get carried.

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@Raizel.1839 said:It should decrese toxicity since everyone will have a chance to prove their value.

This would work in a situation where every player, no matter the experience, has the same amount of value, but that is not the case and usually you can clearly see a difference between like 500kp guy and 100kp guy which will lead to just kicking people after first boss (no matter the reason, they can have the kp, just messed up their opening rotation) because they cannot compete with more experienced players, meaning they are not suites for no healer compositions etc.

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@Fir.7932 said:

@Raizel.1839 said:It should decrese toxicity since everyone will have a chance to prove their value.

This would work in a situation where every player, no matter the experience, has the same amount of value, but that is not the case and usually you can clearly see a difference between like 500kp guy and 100kp guy which will lead to just kicking people after first boss (no matter the reason, they can have the kp, just messed up their opening rotation) because they cannot compete with more experienced players, meaning they are not suites for no healer compositions etc.

There is not really any difference between 50kp or infinite kp players.There are however difference between static player and pug player. They approach encounter with different strategy.People like you just pushes others with your high demand and elite mentality on pug.You want perfect run, stay in your static, otherwise be ready for spicy run which is fun for alot of us.

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@Yellow Rainbow.6142 said:

@Fir.7932 said:

@Raizel.1839 said:It should decrese toxicity since everyone will have a chance to prove their value.

This would work in a situation where every player, no matter the experience, has the same amount of value, but that is not the case and usually you can clearly see a difference between like 500kp guy and 100kp guy which will lead to just kicking people after first boss (no matter the reason, they can have the kp, just messed up their opening rotation) because they cannot compete with more experienced players, meaning they are not suites for no healer compositions etc.

There is not really any difference between 50kp or infinite kp players.There are however difference between static player and pug player. They approach encounter with different strategy.People like you just pushes others with your high demand and elite mentality on pug.You want perfect run, stay in your static, otherwise be ready for spicy run which is fun for alot of us.

Idk how much experience do you have, my friend, but I clear fractal CMs about 10+ times per week. I do my dailies with static (obviously sometimes we have to pug one person) and I join high kp groups for fun or help guildies with low kp.. If you're saying there's no difference between 50kp guy and infinite kp guy, I have to say you are horribly wrong. Most of the time the difference is as clear as day. If you are puging high kp groups there are some really good people in there and it's pretty rare to find someone who will have low DPS. If I join low kp group or help guild static with low kp as DPS, there's pretty much never a competition for me and I am one of the worst dmgers in my group, I mostly play supports.

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@Yellow Rainbow.6142 said:

@Fir.7932 said:

@Raizel.1839 said:It should decrese toxicity since everyone will have a chance to prove their value.

This would work in a situation where every player, no matter the experience, has the same amount of value, but that is not the case and usually you can clearly see a difference between like 500kp guy and 100kp guy which will lead to just kicking people after first boss (no matter the reason, they can have the kp, just messed up their opening rotation) because they cannot compete with more experienced players, meaning they are not suites for no healer compositions etc.

There is not really any difference between 50kp or infinite kp players.There are however difference between static player and pug player. They approach encounter with different strategy.People like you just pushes others with your high demand and elite mentality on pug.You want perfect run, stay in your static, otherwise be ready for spicy run which is fun for alot of us.

You are strait up incorrect. There are vast differences between 50 and 300 KP players on average.

That does not mean that every 50 KP player is weaker or couldn't perform in a 300 KP group. What it means is that most 300 KP players look for 300 KP because they desire ceetain strats. Most common difference: no HFB.

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@"SeikeNz.3526" said:anet is doing a great job, the next step is banning arcdps

I understand that you don't wanna play withpeople you call "elitists" and "elitists" don't wanna do clears with people they call "casuals" that's why we use things like "kp". I mean, casuals are just people who want things done and elitists are also just people who dont mind if things take longer as long as they improve their performance and their class mastery.. Forcing these 2 groups together could end up in toxicity and frustration because none of these groups will be capable of doing what they enjoy doing.

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I will just steal a comment from @"Cyninja.2954" that he posted under a voting pool of the same topic, because I feel like it describes the issue better than i could:

With the old KP ping for fractals, there was a certain expectation to go along:

1-50 KP was in general new players, hfb which might not do all the mechanics for one, likely no consumables, maybe not even a fractal title on players50-100 KP were more relaxed groups, still a hfb for carry but one who might actually know how to press buttons, consumables were given, etc.200 KP was right below "I have to focus up now" with maybe a hfb, but very likely a few fractal title players, everyone on full consumables and fractal potions300+ KP was in general: focus up, no hfb for carry so know how to dodge, cc and burst, probably portals on multiple people, etc. Get through both CMs in around 20 MinutesAs someone with a good bit above 300 KP myself, I was free to chose which type of group I wanted to join depending on how I felt. If I wanted to semi afk 99+100CM, I'd sign up as DH or BS in a 100 KP group, or run HFB and carry all mechanics assuring a safe run.

While KP were easily fake able, the person faking would often get the boot and seldom complain, unless the group was merciful and the player was okayish, I've seen a fair share of definitive KP fake players who were barely acceptable but not kicked since they at least did not fail sever mechanics. Now you most definitely will get faking players complain when kicked, and kicks will become far more frequent. Neither of which will benefit the atmosphere.

The 2 main flaws of reasoning here:

  1. the KP ping addressed the issue of players wanting to play with similar skilled players, and while it had flaws, it managed to do so in a majority of cases. This was superior to asking for "exp", because experience and skill in this game are not binary
  2. some players on these boards always assume that gating happens immediately. That is not the case, gating happens to a majority of time due to necessity, especially when it is this wide spread. You never see gating for open world bosses because there is no need for it. Most players don't voluntary gate for kitten and giggles, because reducing the viable amount of players which can join means longer group finding, they do so because the gating actually REDUCES time to complete content and/or increases the chance of success DESPITE longer grouping times.
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Kps should be shown in each avatar/portrait of party, next to AR.And in raids instead of mastery points should show the total kps/li or kills per wing (in the grid with a little number in a corner of each player will be sufficient).

This is for me the best solution, more fair and no need of keep kps in inventory since that it would be an historical + current account data, and goodbye ping/fake ping. It would be much easier to bring together people of the same level and in a much more clearer way.

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I'm not sure about toxicity, but it'd surely put me off from pugging. I'd rather wait half an hour for a friend or two to log on, to make sure we have at least 4 people or better yet a full party, before we start doing fractal. It makes the will of creating a static group stronger. It's not just me who think this way, all my friends think the same hence we always waiting on each other to start CM.

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@ollbirtan.2915 said:Can't wait for LI to become account bound too. That will put an end to the KP travesty.

won't change anything if you weren't able to raid when li/kp are involved you won't be able afterward.refusing to learn mech and try to be carried never made someone better

@Alita.8142 said:Kps should be shown in each avatar/portrait of party, next to AR.And in raids instead of mastery points should show the total kps/li or kills per wing (in the grid with a little number in a corner of each player will be sufficient).

This is for me the best solution, more fair and no need of keep kps in inventory since that it would be an historical + current account data, and goodbye ping/fake ping. It would be much easier to bring together people of the same level and in a much more clearer way.Yeah ideally would be nice to have a ingame boss kill count (not daily or weekly but total kill) but well look like dev try to make people go away from having kinda honogen group and go to a carry system to please people that still won't be able to do CM anyway as no one will accept to carry them for free

now will be pinging abyssal infusion but 200ecto each :D

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@Fir.7932 said:

@"SeikeNz.3526" said:anet is doing a great job, the next step is banning arcdps

I understand that you don't wanna play withpeople you call "elitists" and "elitists" don't wanna do clears with people they call "casuals" that's why we use things like "kp". I mean, casuals are just people who want things done and elitists are also just people who dont mind if things take longer as long as they improve their performance and their class mastery.. Forcing these 2 groups together could end up in toxicity and frustration because none of these groups will be capable of doing what they enjoy doing.

the so called elitists are the true casuals, why? because they need the perfect run, an easy run, they can't deal with a harder one because they can't kill, so they make KP partys to do it easy, so in the end they are the casual players.

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@SeikeNz.3526 said:

@Fir.7932 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:anet is doing a great job, the next step is banning arcdps

I understand that you don't wanna play withpeople you call "elitists" and "elitists" don't wanna do clears with people they call "casuals" that's why we use things like "kp". I mean, casuals are just people who want things done and elitists are also just people who dont mind if things take longer as long as they improve their performance and their class mastery.. Forcing these 2 groups together could end up in toxicity and frustration because none of these groups will be capable of doing what they enjoy doing.

the so called elitists are the true casuals, why? because they need the perfect run, an easy run, they can't deal with a harder one because they can't kill, so they make KP partys to do it easy, so in the end they are the casual players.

Wanting and needing a perfect run are 2 different things.

You might want to take a dictionary and see what both of those words mean.

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